posted
There is a mindset, that seems to abound today, that holds that the table of the Lord is polluted such that we must sift through the articles presented separating truth from error. But I was wondering to myself, if the meat (message) is of God then how can it be tainted with falsehoods? Perhaps we are snacking at the wrong table?
Now there are at least two problems I see in continuing to eat at such a table. First, we are encourage by practice to be critical of everything we read or hear. While good Bereans will search the scriptures to see if the things they are taught are indeed true, I don't think they will go back for seconds if the meat is spoiled. Perhaps in our day we have become so hungry that we snack at these tables out of want for something better. Indeed, there seems to be famine in the land for the word of God but the famine is a perceived famine. We have neglected to hear truth for so long that many men have come upon the scene to supply our void. We can find tables prepared with just about any dainty which our itching ears desire. And so the bounty of the meat is tainted with error. (BTW, error must have some truth upon which to stand or else it falls. Therein lies the subtleties of deception.) Because we honor ourselves in seeking agreeable truths we are the cause of the flood of falsehood which abounds today. Scriptures testifies that if we do not learn to love the truth that God will send strong delusion so that we believe a lie. And so it is that when we reject the light that God was given we are left to wonder in darkness--regardless of our profession.
The second problem that arises from this constant need for hypervigilance is that we soon apply the same principles to the word of God and we virtually dismiss portions of the inspired word. I have personally experienced working with people who do not esteem each book of the Bible with equality. And so they place one book against another as though God was not the true Author of all of scripture. And in reality we become a people that follow men. One is of Paul another of James. This is not what God intended. His plan was that we should consider all of scripture inspired and bring many texts of different writers to bear on any subject. Yet, I have heard some say that the Psalms cannot be used for doctrine. And this in light of the fact that so much of the New Testament quotes from the Psalms for the very purpose of instructing in doctrine. I have heard another say that Ecclesiastes is the rantings of an ungodly man. Yet another claims that James turned to salvation by works as evidenced from his writings.
How can all this be? Don't we lie against scripture when we believe and teach that not all of scripture is inspired by God? That is my question in this post. Whether or not we profess to believe that all of scripture is inspired is irrelevant when in practice we deny the same by our opinions. So how do you feel about different books of the Bible? Psalms, James, Ecclesiastes? Are they inspired? Is this scripture accurate? "(EMTV) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..."
Because of our various backgrounds there really is no general consensus of beliefs among home churches. It would, therefore, be interesting to hear from several different homes how they believe regarding this issue. Let's learn from each other.
I for one most certainly believe that all scripture is inspired by God!!! I think the problem most often comes in due to the fact that we have limited human minds trying to grasp truths that are out of our ability to completely grasp. That is why the Christian faith relies on faith and mystery so often. That doesn't mean that there isn't much truth that our human minds can understand- especialy with the presence of the Holy Spirit! This is one thing I am loving about House Church (I know you are thinking- not the house church thing again!-but after all this is a House Church forum so I guess it is ok )- When we come together to study Gods Word an amazing thing happens! One person gifted in knowledge has studied something from a certain passage in depth and tells us all what he has learned, but then another person gifted in wisdom helps us to see how this truth links together with others and reminds us to see the subject more broadly. Still another person gifted in prophesy shows us how this applies to our lives, and warns us not to forsake following through with what we are all learning, and yet another person sees how what we are learning relates to a song and leads us in all singing together.... I could go on but you get the point. My point is that I think when we come together in small enough groups that the Holy Spirit is able to work through each one of us we get a lot more well rounded and deeper understanding of his word than when we sit and hear from just one or two.
posted
"...there really is no general consensus of beliefs among home churches"...
Actually, jq, I've been amazed at how people from very divergent backgrounds, experiences and churches have been coming to very similar conclusions about many crucial doctrines... including that of simple church being God's intent all along.
Particularly heartening has been the desire of many to set aside things that are merely intellectual issues and focus on obeying Jesus -- loving one another, feeding the poor, justice for the downtrodden, praying for one another. A few families have decided to avoid "arguing doctrine" in the larger assembly, and focus on raising true disciples instead.
As a friend of mine has said, "Just loving my neighbor is enough to keep me busy all day long!" I'm not sure we need consensus, but rather we need the Mind of Christ to lead!
Blessings, Laurie Ann Foyil, USA
-------------------- Posing as an Ordinary Housewife :)
When you said that what we need more than consensus is the mind of Christ to lead, that really hit home to me!!!! That is what I want- to surrender to the mind of Christ! Both personally, and maybe even more importantly, corporately!
Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit came he would lead us into all truth. 1 Cor 2:16 says that we have the mind of Christ. That boggles my mind! What do you all think of that verse?
Jeff, I hope I haven't gotten off base of your origional question.
posted
Let's think about this. We have the mind of Christ, each of us, yet there is no consensus? Is the mind of Christ divided? Will he cause confusion in his body such that it resembles "Babylon?"
What about one body, one hope, one faith, one baptism, one spirit, one Lord? If the Holy Spirit comes to each of us to lead us into all truth then can't we expect that all who are guided by the same spirit will be tending toward the same doctrinal truths?
(Jeanne, this is a broad subject so go down any path you think is relevant. And don't jump on someone else's bandwagon too quickly. Learn to think for yourself. Become knowledgeable in the things of God so that you can know that what you know is the truth. Only truth will set us free. Through the impartation of truth the Holy Spirit teaches us about Jesus, what he expects from us, what we can expect from him, and how to know truth from error.)
Laura, you seem to be suggesting that knowledge is of less importance than simply doing. Scripture does say not to be hearers only but doers, too. Yet, doesn't knowledge beget faith and belief and don't our beliefs shape our lives? Aren't we washed by the word? Can the same baptism of the spirit produce dissimilar beliefs and deny us consensus? How can these things be? If you recall, it is "Babylon" that means confusion.
I hope you will not be angry with me for being so bold. Yet, I know you love the Lord and would not want it any other way. Because the battle is for the mind isn't it? We don't war against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places. Therefore, if I think you have spoken something that is off-the-mark then isn't it my Christian duty to persuade you otherwise? "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."
The Word became flesh and dwelled among us for a very specific purpose. His name was to be Jesus because he came to save us from our sins. "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to Thy word." "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against Thee."
Laura, sorry for this simple lesson but I know that some pastors tend to downplay the importance of scripture and stress the doing. It is through this method of keeping us dumb regarding truth that they keep us captive. So I am going to ask some very basic questions because I don't really know you or your religious upbringing. Please don't be offended but bear with me and humor me. Do you understand what scripture means when it says "The Word became flesh?" In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says he came not to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill. He was the word made flesh. This word was in the beginning and was with the Father. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. " This same word the disciples testified of. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."
You see, Jesus is the law and the prophets fulfilled in human flesh. He is the word made flesh. Thus, we cannot esteem the written word less than Jesus because they are one and the same. All our works are nothing but filthy rags. Unless we study to know God in truth we cannot properly serve him. Unless it is his spirit working in us we cannot produce good fruit. Regardless of how good our works may appear to be they are worth nothing unless they are done out of faith working by love for God and of God. This kind of faith can only come from a right knowledge of God and the best source of that knowledge is the scripture. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Martha was doing a good work yet it was Mary that Jesus acknowledged was doing the most important "work" in sitting at his feet and listening. Just remember that we complained that the IC kept us so busy that we didn't have time to "be holy." We need to take that time to simply sit at Jesus' feet and listen. This is prayer and reading from God's word. But not simlpy a casual reading, but rather reading with a teachable spirit to know the will of God. Then, we are to follow in those things which are plain to our mind.
Now maybe I made a complete misread. If so, I would expect to hear you saying you concur that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Your heart should echo these words. "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
You see, even rebuking someone or instructing someone in the ways of righteousness and making disciples of them also shows a love for them--a love for their sole. You have fed those who hunger for physical food and I have fed you with spiritual food. Don't be angry with me for feeding the poor.
posted
Hi Jeff and Laurie Ann- and everyone of course,
The verse you refered to in your 2nd paragragh (one body, one hope, one baptism, one spirit, one Lord), Jeff, is one that when looked at in it's context might give insight into this subject we are looking at. Eph. 4 starts in verse 2 by saying "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love." Verse4 is the verse you referenced, then the passage goes into the gifts of the spirit which it says each one of us are given. We are to use these gifts as it says in verse 12 "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Then it says we won't be like infants any longer, blown about by different teachings. The passage wraps up with verse 16 "From him (Christ) the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does it's work."
How I see all this is that it is vitally important that 1. we come together each with an attitude of humility- surrendered to God, and one another- 2. we realize that each one of us is filled with the Spirit and gifted by the spirit. We cannot mature without both learning from other believers, and at the same time being used by God in other believers lives. 3. As this happens (as in the non-hierarchy, participatory atmosphere of simple(home) church, some amazing things start to happen... works of service, unity, knowledge, and maturity. And I don't think these things are necissarily progressive, but feed off of each other.
So- unity(consensus), works of service, and knowledge are all equally important, and all achieved as we humbly come together to seek the Lord, and are all equally used by God in eachothers lives. Works of service and knowledge are both nothing without this kind of love as we see in 1 Cor 13:2,3. And we also read that knowledge puffs up but love builds up in 1 Cor 8:1.
Jeff- your points on the importance of knowledge are well taken and worded well enough that I don't think I need to add to them, other than to say that you may need to watch how you word things so as to make sure you come accross as humble and gentle. Laurie Ann- your points are also well taken as I believe that the point you were trying to make is that we need to avoid arguments and instead come together in love to build one another up for works of service- as you have seen happen in simple Church gatherings. I have seen some of the same, which makes passages like Eph. 4 so exciting to read!!!
posted
Well said, JH. But I still believe that the minds of the people need to be stirred up to seek after truth. But, as you say, in the meekness and gentleness of Christ's love.
Many feel that we should not argue points of doctrine. But the first definition of argue is to put forth reasons for or against. We are admonished to "be prepared with a defense [or argument] to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you," but, "with meekness and fear." But this is not a false meekness which manifests itself as indifference for the souls of others. So what kind of meekness is this speaking of? Does these mean we are to concede to error simply because someone disagrees with us and wishes to argue? Does it mean we are to avoid any serious discussion to maintain the appearance of outward unity?
If someone doesn't accept the whole of scripture as the inspired word of God then they cannot present a complete defense to those who ask for a reason for their hope. Nor can they take on the full armor of God. There will be holes in their defenses which will allow the darts of the enemy to pierce their armor. They will not be fully shielded and seeds of falsehood will be allowed to germinate and grow until their roots are too strong to be pulled up by any amount of scriptural reasoning. Or, in pulling them up other good plants will be damaged or uprooted.
My experience with the Seventh-day Adventist church has brought many things to light. All of scripture is now in harmony and I see more clearly many truths that would never have been made plain before. I understand that God's promises are always conditional, to us as well as to Israel of old. Therefore, I know that God has repented of many promises given to Israel because of their unbelief and disobedience. So I am not deceived by John Haggee or others who say the Jews have a birth right to the promised land. I am not deceived by spirits who might appear to us in the form of our departed loved ones because I know the scriptures which plainly teach that when a person dies they sleep and are not conscious of what is going on about them. The body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. Thus, the essential elements which make up a living soul are separated at death and man is no longer a living soul. There are too many to list here at this time.
But because I speak with such conviction and certainty of what I believe, because my eyes have been opened, I may at times sound arrogant or dogmatic. But this is only because those who think such things have not proven me out by scripture. I pray that I am humble and gentle but if not, please correct me. As a body we are to help each other come to knowledge, unity, and perfection.
Email this page to someone.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)- When we come together to study Gods Word an amazing thing happens! One person gifted in knowledge has studied something from a certain passage in depth and tells us all what he has learned, but then another person gifted in wisdom helps us to see how this truth links together with others and reminds us to see the subject more broadly. Still another person gifted in prophesy shows us how this applies to our lives, and warns us not to forsake following through with what we are all learning, and yet another person sees how what we are learning relates to a song and leads us in all singing together.... I could go on but you get the point. My point is that I think when we come together in small enough groups that the Holy Spirit is able to work through each one of us we get a lot more well rounded and deeper understanding of his word than when we sit and hear from just one or two.
