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Let's look at apostles sometime soon as LA suggested. No hurry.
Were these one-timers whose office was not to be taken over? Are there two kinds of apostles - big A and little a?
Seems that Wolfgang Simson is keen on the necessity of apostles. Others, too.
When, in Ephesians, we read of the "foundation of the prophets and apostles" does the greek verb suggest that such was a repeatable foundation or a "once for all" foundation. Or neither?
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I would also love to hear from others on this topic! I tend to see this as a gift of the spirit still needed and used in the church today. I am not sure what verse in Ephesians you are refering to, but Eph 4:11 seems to me to list apostle amoung other gifts given to the Church.
If you look at the meaning of the word- it means "one sent on a mission"- so first the 12 were disciples (followers of Christ), and then became apostles(ones sent by Christ). I think in this same way, if we are truely disciples, we will also be apostles- as we are all sent as embassadors to see others reconciled to God. But, just like we are all called to evangelism, yet there are some specialy gifted in evangelism (to build up the body for works of service- help us all become better evangelists); I think there are also some who are specially gifted apostles.
I am wondering if some people elevate the 12 to let themselves off the hook. "Well, God couldn't work through me in such a powerful way as He did through them- they were "the apostles"".
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Just some thoughts... I've been studying this since the topic came up but am not really prepared to present anything conclusive.
It would seem to me that perhaps the 12 apostles were a special group and that we should not expect that gift in the church today. In fact, I think it would be dangerous to expect it. I know the Mormon church sends out 18 year old young men with the title of "elder" who teach that the fact that the Mormon church has apostles proves that it is the true church. Well, that is no proof to my mind.
Remember that the 11 apostles cast lots to choose the 12th apostle after Judas turned from apostle to apostate. But later God chose Saul (Paul) instead. And, we learn that the church was founded on both Christ, as the cornerstone, and the apostles. (Eph 2:20). So could there be any founding apostles after the initial foundation was laid. I don't think so. The Mormon's would disagree but then they founded something a little different, didn't they.
Jeanne was correct when she stated the definition of apostle. But perhaps she was incorrect when she stated that we are all sent. We are not all sent. I think that since there is a variety of gifts there is also a variety of expectations. We can all give our testimony but not all are sent. Some give their testimony by taking up humble tasks which the proud would not dare be seen doing. All have gifts. But, are all pastors? Are all teachers? I feel it a grave error to push people into positions they were not gifted to perform. Yet, this seems the norm today. This is another way we neglect our duties--by pushing more upon others.
Paul called himself an apostle as did Peter. But I would be very suspicious of someone who took that term to themselves today. I can accept every other title in the list of gifts but not apostle. They seem to be special. Their work seemed to end once the foundation was laid.
Well, as I said. Not prepared to present anything conclusive yet but did wish to perhaps apply a little pressure on the wheel in an opposite direction to hopefully keep an even keel.
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Boy, this is a difficult one. I think we need to keep in mind that the 12 disciples had a special training from Christ to be a foundation in the Church. They were truly discipled by Jesus. They really knew Him. What a priviledge! However, we have no problem calling a fervent brother a disciple in our time. A disciple is a student, a learner.
The problem arises when we compare apostolic ministries. It depends if we view apostle as a gift or an office. Or both! I think we may still have the gift but perhaps not the office. Jeanne, I think is referring to the gift of being an apostle. A gift is from the Holy Spirit apart from how mature we may be. Historically, perhaps only the twelve could be said to have the office of Apostle. Jesus obviously trained, empowered, and sent out the 12 as Apostles into the world. There was and still is a kingdom authority to their legacy. I have difficulty, as Jeff does, with someone claiming to be an apostle. There is an authority issue as well as a credibility issue here. However, I believe that Jesus can still "send out" a prepared disciple as an apostle. Maybe someone like Brushko could be seen as an apostle. He brought the gospel to a tribe that hade never heard of Christ, and even translated the Bible into their tongue.
I think a real apostle would be held in awe by non-believers as well as believers. Would God send someone without a revival taking place?
I do agree that we must build on the foundation of the original 12, they being built on Christ. We must be of the same kind, cut from the same cloth as it were, in order to be counted worthy of being built in to the holy structure that is the pillar of the truth. Holiness is required in apostles as with all those having gifts. Isn't that the very purpose of spiritual gifts? That's just my take on things.
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Hi John, thank you for weighing in with the others. Much to chew on...
Brother, you mentioned 'holiness' - don't hear much about that anymore, do we?
Are there any hints of meaning in the Greek we may be overlooking with respect to THE apostles or THE twelve? Does the definte article 'the' always appear?
I know Hebrew is your forte but most study Greek first. I studied neither, btw.
Paul mentioned magnifying his "office." Still, as you said, 'apostle' might be a gift, too.
The '70' were surely sent - are they refered to as apostles?
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I think we're back to the "Big A", "little a" apostles as you suggested at the top of this thread. The Greek is well Greek to me! We could say that the office of apostle has been fulfilled for us in the writings of the NT. The gift of apostle is still given, in my view, but I think the goal of this and other gifts has been hijacked in a way towards what WE feel is important and relevant.
The next verse (Eph. 4:12) "For the perfecting of the saints" is incomprehensible in our time, I think. We hear a lot about numbers of things, a la Wolfgang Simpson et al, but when do we hear of a single saint coming into the fulness of Christ. I think we have a different agenda than God. Statistics aside.
Definitely the 70 were apostles if we understand the term apostle as "sent one" or in Hebrew "Shaliach." However, far fewer received the "apostleship" office. Rom 1:5
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