Some say the elders are older people in the church but I cannot buy into that as we also know Timothy was young and also an elder.

AND

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Paul certainly was an elder, in fact he was the living definition of what an elder is. As I have tried to point out elsewhere the confusion can be eliminated when you understand an "elder" as a mature Christian, not a babe in Christ (Eph. 4:12-15). This happens at the perfecting of our faith by God (James 1:12; Heb. 6:3). The book of Revelation is in accord with this as elders are those with gold crowns and white garments (Rev. 4:4). It is really that simple, but fallen man being what he is tends to want to solve this logically. I think someone above posted that we are appointed to our positions in Christ by the holy Spirit, so looking for a definition in the Bible may prove fruitless. So, when you have made your calling and election sure you are a mature Christian, an elder in Christ, but this does not necessarily translate in human terms.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

------ end quoted portion,

Hi sister,

Sure enough, Paul is an older one and calls attention to that fact as does the apostle John.

Timothy, however, is referred to as a young man, regardless of what functions he was appointed to. That's a fact - not human "logic."

As to the true meaning of this word, there were prior to the NT era, thousands of years of history and tradition concerning the precise identity of the elders. Because of this, the NT elders needed no introduction when they appeared in the NT narrative. For them to have become something other than older ones would have been as revolutionary as black-skinned people being called white-skinned.

We get a real idea into ancient culture by Paul's admonition not to let Timothy's youth be despised. Young usually meant immature. Old meant wisdom and honor.

DiAnne, I certainly favor the concept of eldership denoting the idea of maturity. That's what age is suppose to do for a person, especially a Believer. Older should mean better and more useful, too. Age, lenghth of days, is also a reward in Biblical terms.

So, the great work of shepherding belongs to the older ones. See 1 Peter 5 where the old and young are contrasted, for example. Thanks to the church's "logic" that old means something else, millions of Christian seniors are totally clueless as to their God-ordained role. That's sad.

David Anderson

You wrote:
Timothy, however, is referred to as a young man, regardless of what functions he was appointed to. That's a fact - not human "logic."

Who ever said Timothy was not young in age? Not me. I said he was and "elder" Christian = a "mature" Christian.

You further wrote:
"As to the true meaning of this word, there were prior to the NT era, thousands of years of history and tradition concerning the precise identity of the elders."

Yes, and Jesus came and changed the OT system of sacrifice and the priesthood. Now we are all a royal priesthood in a spiritual temple (1 Pet. 2:9; Eph. 2:21).

You wrote:
Because of this, the NT elders needed no introduction when they appeared in the NT narrative.

Then why does Paul go to great lengths to describe one in his letter to Timothy?

You also wrote:
"For them to have become something other than older ones would have been as revolutionary as black-skinned people being called white-skinned."

Well, I don't believe we descended from monkeys either. Ever hear of the tower of Babel? Before that time we were all the same and even spoke the same language. When Christ came he brought equality (Gal. 3:28).

You wrote:
"We get a real idea into ancient culture by Paul's admonition not to let Timothy's youth be despised. Young usually meant immature. Old meant wisdom and honor."

Usually, but not in this case as Paul is speaking about a mature Christian, who is an elder in Christ, not necessarily an older person. It is about spiritual growth, not natural growth.

Heb. 5:13-14
For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with human age. Consider someone who is 50 who was saved yesterday, and someone else who was saved at 20-years old who is now 30. The latter person would have 10 years of Christian learning over the 50-year old. Who would be a better teacher of the things of God?

You wrote:
See 1 Peter 5 where the old and young are contrasted, for example. Thanks to the church's "logic" that old means something else, millions of Christian seniors are totally clueless as to their God-ordained role.

In 1 Peter 5 the elders are contrasted to the "new" ones, not necessarily the younger ones. The word is nehoteroi and is used to compare something new to something that is not, not necessarily something "young" to something "old" and there is a difference. This is about neophytes in Christ. Otherwise if someone were older who came to Christ (at an older physical age) they would not be subject to the trials of the devil the way these neophytes in Christ would be as per 1 Peter 5:10. That just does not make sense. Think about it.

Hope you're enjoying a long holiday weekend. We have friends coming from CA.

Yes, there is a certain degree of relativity about the word "elder." Elder is the comparative form of eld, you know. If Timothy worked exclusively with children, he could be considered an elder, indeed. Given the clientele receiving Paul's letters, he was a younger one.

If you will check the NT usage of "neoteros" (in 1 Peter 5), you'll see that the rendering NEW never refers to person(s) but to inanimate objects or ideals. In other words we do not say "young wine" but "new wine." Your opinion that a new believer is brought into view is completely unsustainable. The comparison is between younger and older, or elder.

Furthermore, their is nothing in the NT written to identify elders. Older ones are so easily recognized that the most backward societies on earth know who their elders are. Sure, their ROLE is described but that's beside the point.

Elders are older ones, period. The meaning corresponds perfectly to the word just as a hand to a glove, as you say. Lol.

ybiC,

I will be leaving town this weekend for my mother's. She lives half way between here and San Francisco, near San Luis Obispo.

So, you are still not convinced. Then how do you interpret Revelation 4:4? These are "elders" who have gold crowns and white garments. Elsewhere in Revelation white robes and white garments are for God's elect. Once you have perfected your salvation you receive the crown of life (James 1:12). Also you still have not answered the logic of my post above about a 30-year old who has been saved for 10 years vs. a 50-year old who has been saved for one day, and which is the "elder?"

Also, if we are "born again" our new birth is the point at which we measure our spiritual age, not our natural age. We are babes in Christ until we reach maturity and there are plenty of Scriptures to back this up. You are the one who is making assumptions based on a preconceived idea that younger is not newer in the sense of spiritual growth. I believe we need to interpret Scripture with Scripture as that is what good bereans do.

Which would be the elder? The older of course. Elder is not a term of spiritual maturity, per se. This is why it is the elders "of the church" who are to shepherd, not merely the "elders of the city."

Your belief that the term's basic meaning is maturity is completely erroneous. Obviously, many seniors are immature, having been programmed for life to become such. "Just let the clergy do it all."

The jealous elder brother, out in the field, is referred to as an elder, which has NOTHING to do with spiritual maturity: Luke 15:25, Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.

Also, John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Here again, the same root word has NOTHING to do with spiritual maturity - everything to do with AGE.

Check out the OT and NT, sister, and observe that old and young, old and young men and women are contrasted many times.

Can you cite, btw, a single commentator who asserts with you that Timothy was an elder? Can you cite a single commentator who asserts that the "younger ones" contrasted to the elders in 1 Peter 5 are younger only in a spiritual sense?

David Anderson

You wrote:
Which would be the elder? The older of course. Elder is not a term of spiritual maturity, per se. This is why it is the elders "of the church" who are to shepherd, not merely the "elders of the city."

Elder can mean two things depending on what is being explained. In the case of your quote above you also define two kinds of elders: one "of the church" and "elders of the city." This is exactly my point: That the elders of the church are not necessarily synonymous with the elders of the city. You made my point better than I could have.

You also wrote:
The jealous elder brother, out in the field, is referred to as an elder, which has NOTHING to do with spiritual maturity: Luke 15:25, Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.

Of course this is referring to a comparison of the ages of the two brothers. One is older than the other, younger one. This is not speaking about elders of the church but an older and younger brother in a family.

I see you cannot logically divide the word and you are really trying to obfuscate what I am saying. Also by merely saying it is erroneous does not make it erroneous. You fail to provide any Scripture to support your position. On the other hand I have given plenty.

You wrote:
Also, John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. Here again, the same root word has NOTHING to do with spiritual maturity - everything to do with AGE.

Yes, in THIS passage you are correct as those who brought this woman were the Pharisees who were trying to trap Jesus. They would hardly qualify as "elders of the church." Elders of the Jews perhaps but not spiritual elders of the church.

You cannot compare the OT w/ the NT in this way as when Jesus came he said we are now a spiritual temple in the Lord where we are a royal priesthood. The OT was only a type and shadow of what the church is now, so you are comparing apples to oranges trying to tie the NT church use of this term to the OT way in which it was used.

I do not agree with a single commentary on everything, do you? I have looked in both a commentary and a study Bible and one of them did say it emphasizes spiritual maturity. The point is eldership is so important so much so that we are warned of people seeking this position for the sake of money. In so powerful a position I would think there would be great reason to cover the truth with a lie. That is why I always check what I read agains the Scriptures.

1 Tim. 6:9-10
But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

We are also given the churches in the book of Revelation which indicate that many are not being led by the righteous servants of Christ. This is a position not many should enter into as James says those who do will receive stricter judgment.

Now, I ask you again, if this is not speaking about spiritual maturity v. babes in Christ, why is 1 Pet. 5:10 talking about how these "younger" Christians will be perfected and established? As I have said before James 1:12 gives us the answer. Also where is your interpretation of Rev. 4:4?

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

Just a simple YES or a NO, today, without any private inferences or interpretations. Then I shall proceed.

Does any Scripture EVER refer to Timothy as an "elder," as did you?

2) Does the Scripture EVER refer to eldership as a "position," as did you?

You ask for a simple yes or no, but the question you posed does not lend itself to such a simple answer. What I am trying to communicate is an elder is a saved person who has made his calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10). It is a position in the sense we are a royal priesthood and we are to proclaim Him and His kingdom to the lost.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

It is a ministry of reconciliation:

2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

We cannot teach the things of God until we reach the point of maturity:

Hebrews 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

We cannot become teachers unless God permits:

Hebrews 6:3
And this we shall do, if God permits.

We reach this point through our trials and then we receive the crown of life:

James 1:12
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

We are then approved of God and that is when no man may judge us:

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

We then can bring others elected but not yet approved to the fulness of Christ (to their approval by God):

Eph. 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

At that point we build one another up in love (or we are supposed to):

Eph. 4:16
from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

It is not just a matter of hearing the word, but also of understanding the word. This is done spiritually, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not just with the intellect.

Matthew 13:23
"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

1 Cor. 2:13
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

Answer: It doesn't and it needn't as there was already cultural consensus, dating back thousands of years, concerning the elders identity.

From the first sentence, above, of this thread is DiAnne's statement that Timothy was an elder. That is a mere assumption on her part and she should have been candid enough to admit that the scriptural proof is nonexistent. Instead of an honest reply, she carefully evaded the question. (It is also a mere assumption on your part, Dennis, that I ever attended a seminary. Yes, I am ready and eager to learn new things.)

Of course, all the saints are to seek maturity unto the stature of Jesus, regardless of age or gender. Of course, some younger ones are more endowed with pastoring abilities and knowledge than some - many- older ones.

If you desire to defend DiAnne's position then please demonstrate where Timothy is ever called an elder in Scripture. What we read about is his YOUTH - not his old age nor eldership. He was or he wasn't an elder when he received Paul's letters. There is no middle ground.

Timothy is similar to those who, in every age, have wisdom, capabilities, and usefulness beyond their years, just as several Old Testament leaders did.

May God give us wisdom beyond our years, brother. Every idea has real-world consequences. Since ELDERSHIP has become an "office," hundreds of millions of Christian men have NEVER ENGAGED IN THEIR ASSIGNED PASTORAL ROLES. But thankfully, I must add, some have had better instincts than their traditions and did indeed seek to mentor, teach, and guide their junior brothers and sisters. To the work...

David Anderson

I can defend my own position, thanks. The entire books written to Timothy were about eldership. Timothy was told what it was to be an elder and to preach the word in season and out of season. He was to be a preacher of the word as we all are upon the attainment of maturity status in Christ. Again you evade the point.

David:

DiAnne, You apparently have a difficult time accepting those times in life where you are CLEARLY mistaken. If that be the case, then you lack the requisites for continuing on this forum. All of us are occasionally in error. The honorable thing is just to admit it or, as most do, just drop it.

Again, and for the LAST time, sister: In Scripture, where is Timothy called an elder OR that he "was to be an elder," as you have written above?

If Revelation 4 referred to one of the 24 elders as being a person named Timothy, then you would have surely have a valid point. If ALL the redeemed are who is in view in this text, then why only 24 persons? As I have already told you, this passage has no bearing on the youthfulness of Timothy - I thought it was a typographical error when you brought it up. Quit accusing me of "evading" your question.

Rev. 4:4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

And, for goooooodness sake, please don't try to turn the question of Timothy's youth into another sermonette on how he was to be a preacher or how everybody ought to press on to spiritual maturity or how that we're someday going to wear crowns. NOBODY contests, nor has contested, any of that.

Now, with just a "yes" or "no" and proof thereof: Is Timothy, Paul's young assistant, called an ELDER in the Word of God?

David Anderson