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Here is church “rank” as I have heard it. This is in order of “significance” with the highest rank listed first, to the lowest rank listed last. This list is an “all inclusive” one, with every rank being listed that I know. Apostles, prophets, pastors, (or bishops in some churches) deacons (or elders), trustees, (not in the Bible at all) teachers, and disciples (all other Christians in the church). Others use Ephesians 4:11 as their list. Apostles are first, then prophets, evangelists, pastors (deacon [and sometimes trustees] are added here, but they are not listed in 4:11) and lastly, teachers. The rest are just Christians. Sound familiar? Any of this sound familiar? This was ever meant to be!
In The New Testament Church there were several delineations as to one's “duty.” First there was Jesus, Who called Himself “The Ideal Shepherd” John 10:1-18. (you will have to check the Greek) The fact is, I did a search, and Jesus was the only One ever directly named as shepherd in The New Testament. It looks like Paul called himself a preacher or shepherd in 1 Timothy 2:7, but the Greek word for preacher was “proclaimer,“ not shepherd. In The New Testament, the words “pastors and teachers” are interchanged with the Greek to English words for “shepherds and teachers.” This is done only once. It is in Ephesians 4:11. The word pastors never appears again, and the word pastor doesn’t appear at all!
Jesus was called “teacher” by “Mr. Nick at Night,” remember? (John 3:2) Jesus was specifically recorded to have “taught” twenty-nine time in The four Gospels. The disciples or “learners” as the Greek calls them, were those who followed Jesus from place to place learning from his teachings.
From these that were learners, Jesus called twelve over to Him, and named them apostles or simply "commissioners." (Matthew 10:1-2a, Mark 6:7a, and Luke 6:13) Please see Luke for the most detailed account of how Jesus did this. This was all Jesus did to ever distinguish one follower from another. We find no more distinctions ever made by Christ.
As The Church began to grow, in The Book of Acts, we find the twelve commissioners needing some help. They are recorded to have called the learners together, had them choose seven from among themselves “of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom,” to be table “servers.” (Acts 6:1-6) These are later called “deacons” by the King James Bible, (totally mislabeling a commissioner in Philemon 1:1) but these were simply more “servers” in 1 Timothy 3:8-13. It is the same word.
Later, chosen from the servers were the “bishops” (1Timothy 3:10) or more simply, as the Greek calls them, supervisors. They were required to be “unimpeachable” and were to be qualified to teach. (1Timothy 3:2) Philip was one of the original seven servers, and is also called “the evangelist” in Acts 21:8. That term is “well messenger” in the Greek, and only appears three times. It is never defined beyond that. If you look through Acts, (Philip is never spoken of after Acts 21) The Church began scattering because of persecution. Philip the server did too, and he traveled, preached Christ, cast out demons, healed the lame, and baptized with water. That’s the entire list.
The truth is, these jobs were was never meant to be their title, just there duties within The Body of Christ. It is very clear that Stephen, a table “server" operated in The Gifts and was full of the Holy Spirit. You see, one had to be “full of The Holy Spirit” just to go out and serve tables for The Church!
I used to believe in church rank. I now know this is a perversion coming from the current church needing to be run like a business. As far as "elders" go, the word was only used eight times, and it was ALWAYS talking about age. The Greek word is "presbuteros" and simply means elder in age. Compare the word (in Greek) in Luke 15:25 to any other place where it is used in The New Testament. It is always the same word.
The King James is used to support bondage to the church. Ever wander what the word "pastor" means? No, because you know what one is. Ever look it up for yourself? It is a perversion of the word "shepherd" and is only interpreted "pastor" in that one place. (Eph. 4:11) A shepherd's job was clearly defined by Jesus in the book of John 10:1-18. Check it out in the greek
By the way, Prophets seemed to do as directed, and were only ever recorded to be so directed by The LORD Himself. You see, Ephesians 4:11 is not a hierarchy. It was never meant to be used as one either! It is simply descriptive of the function [or job] these men AND WOMEN were doing. One more thing. There were women commissioners (apostles), servers, (what you know as deacons, but the King James chose to call them “helpers” because a woman was mentioned). These were called “together actors” by Paul. Just check out Romans 16:1-7 in the Greek.
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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"Together actors" as in one body. The church hierarchy is reversed from business hierarchy.
In business you have a boss at the top with his staff and then under the boss you have managers with their staff, then supervisors, then workers. The workers support those above them--they produce the actual goods. Pictorially it looks like a gruesome tarantula-like creature.
While the church has the newest members at the top, supported by elder members, supported by deacons, supported by elders. At the very bottom, the foundation, you have Jesus Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. He supports everything and everyone. Pictorially it looks like a crown. (Draw them out and see.)
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: While the church has the newest members at the top, supported by elder members, supported by deacons, supported by elders. At the very bottom, the foundation, you have Jesus Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. He supports everything and everyone. Pictorially it looks like a crown. (Draw them out and see.)
Hello again jqlogan, Are you talking about the Seventh Day Adventist church? I have never heard the crown thing before. When I draw it out, I see more of an upside down triangle (this is a very unstable mental picture). One preacher at the bottom, then two more for the songs and the youth, then a few elders and deacons, then longstanding members, then a bunch of new members. This is not Biblical discipleship.
jqlogan, please understand that I'm not trying to be confrontational, but have you ever looked anything up I have posted to see if it is true? I fully understand what it is to believe something because those you respect have told you it is true. And the simple truth is, you do not know me. Therefore it is easy to dismiss my findings as simple heresy, but aren't you even just a little curious?
I have attempted to establish factual cases within the text of The Bible Itself. I have never claimed that Scripture was unreliable text. On the contrary, I have used It as proof text for all I have written. Therefore, I must wonder why you make statements like, ["Together actors" as in one body] when that was clearly NOT what was said in the text. The words "in one body" are simply not there. The word "of me" are there, excluding your supposition entirely! Don't you risk adding or taking from Scripture in doing this?
I have an idea that may really help you here. Print my post out and take it to your SDA church, and get the pastor to refute it point by point, using The Bible (the Greek Interlinear would be nice). I am not at all interested in his "opinion." Then post that to me here, so I can answer him in like manner. If the words I speak can't be refuted with authority (read Scripture) then why try and refute them at all?
A (heading to bed) heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
The phrase "together actors" is nonsensical to me. If I manipulate it just a bit I can get "actors together" which does make more sense to me. When I think of people acting together I get the picture of harmony and unity. The harmony of the church of Christ is likened to the body of Christ. Therefore, I translated "together actors" as "one body" which is Biblical.
Translating one language to another is not a simple task. It is even difficult to translate English to Spanish. I attended a Spanish speaking church for a while and the Pastor would be talking about consecration to God and standing firm on principle. But the translation kept coming out as "we need to make a compromise with God." The word compromise is not a good translation in English because it carries with it a negative connotation and not the message the speaker was trying to convey--in my opinion.
Those who translated the Bible did not have an easy task. They spent a great amount of time comparing scripture with scripture to determine the best possible words to convey in easily understood English the meaning they thought was carried in the Greek. I appreciate the difficulty they encountered and their dedication to the task.
As you say, I don't really know you. I don't know your qualification to interpret Greek, nor the experience you have with the Greek language, how fluent you are in speaking Greek or your familiarity with the subtle nuances, idioms and such. I certainly don't know the Greek language and would be at a loss to act in the capacity of an expert on the language. So it would be pointless for me to even challenge you with regard to the Greek.
It would be like two scientists arguing about Darwin's theory of evolution and each thinking their opinions were correct and the others was wrong. Where would it get them. First, they are discussing a topic which is already flawed and second, because they ignore the creation story they will never, ever find the truth no matter how long or how eloquent their arguments. So in truth they would be arguing with each other out of the own ignorance of the very subject in which they consider themselves experts. I hope you understand.
(Oh, and BTW, I did look up what you presented even using interlinear Greek translations. But, like I said before, I better stick with the English translations. However, that being said, I have used Strong's to create my own interlinear Greek translation of certain passages simply because I wanted to see if there could be better agreement with other verses on the subject. I found that there is quite a choice of words that can be used to translate the Greek. But you have to be aware of the voice and tense of the context which complicates it greatly even if you are a scholar in Greek. A novice like me could really get in over his head very quickly.)
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: Hello Matthew, The phrase "together actors" is nonsensical to me. If I manipulate it just a bit I can get "actors together" which does make more sense to me. When I think of people acting together I get the picture of harmony and unity. The harmony of the church of Christ is likened to the body of Christ. Therefore, I translated "together actors" as "one body" which is Biblical.
*cut-and-paste* I am here to find likeminded Christian believers (Philemon 2:2) that can sharpen my faith, (Hebrews 10:25 [check the Greek]) not a debate forum (2 Timothy 3:1-9). Jesus is my Lord, my Life and my Love. I only wish to please Him more, and I don’t care what man thinks. If I did, I wouldn’t be a Christian in the first place (1 Corinthians 15:19). I am open to correction using facts only (Acts 17:11). I believe that The Bible is full of facts. We were commanded to be wise but harmless (Matthew 10:16). That is my goal here. Thanks.
A heretic for Christ, Matthew *end cut-and-paste*
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote: I realize now that you wanted to debate the Greek. I am just not qualified nor do I care to get that scholarly here. I have wasted your time. Sorry.
Debate, bad. Refute error, good. Learn from, even better. Apply, the best!
As I have stated openly, many times ...It's not so hard to get a Greek Interlinear and see what's there. They are free online. That's all I'm doing. As fas as the statement "debate the Greek" goes, please see the chicken example in one of my post to you.
Also, Why do you say, "nor do I care to get that scholarly here." Where do you "get that scholarly"? I do devotions on my computer, and many of my post here are simply the cut and paste from the time I spend in The Bible. It's not really all that scholarly or complicated.
A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
I am not looking to get caught up in a debate either, but I do have a couple of thoughts on this topic. Take it for what it is worth .
I also heard the upsidedown triangle illustration (thats what I heard it called), when we were attending a church- a very good church by the way. It appealed to me at the time because it is much more in line with scripture than the business model is- as Christ told us not to lord it over others as the world does, but to be the servant of all. However, as I have studied early church structure, and what is taught in the new testament, I think this illustration still falls short. Yes, Christ is the cornerstone- and the capstone- he is the head of the Church. We are his body, which in fact has no heirarchy other than the head being supreme. All parts are equally important, and even those who seem less so we are to treat with special honor. So, there is NO heirarchy, as we are each equally connected to the head, and are each equally called to be the servant of all, as we read in ph 2.
Going back to Mathews original post, there was something that stuck out to me as I read through acts a couple of years ago. Interestingly enough, I just read the book Organic Church and he mentioned the same thing. Anyway, in acts 6, where we see the Jerusalem church growing in size, thus needing those table servers to be appointed- I think that even though good was happening, those commisioners (appostles) weren't doing exactly what they had been told to do by Christ in the great commission. They were becoming comfortable and growing in size, rather than multiplying out into Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. God brought persecution to this Jerusalem Church, which caused it to spread and then to multiply as we read that those scattered brought to gospel wherever they went. Interestingly- the commissioners (appostles) stayed in Jerusalem. So it was the average Joe who became the commissioners and not the apostles, as they did not obey the great commission, acting as commissioners of the gospel into the world, but instead stayed behind.
I think there is much that can be learned from this, but a couple of things that I notice is:
1. As Mathew pointed out- there is nothing magical, or heirarchical about titles like apostle. They are descriptions of what we are to do! Those who are gifted in different areas are to use these gifts to build up other believers to love and good works. In other words if someone is a gifted apostle- they will be acting as a commisioner of the gospel, but they are also to be encouraging and equiping other believers to do the same. Someone who has the gift of mercy is of course to model mercy in their own lives, but is also to encourage other believers to become more merciful.
2. As we resist the mutiplication implied in the great commission and are content staying where we are and growing in size, greater levels of orginization become necissary, generally resulting in some sort of hierarchical strucure. That is why I believe in keeping church small, and instead of growing in size, multiplying out into more small churches. Then, hierarchical organization can be avoided and acting as a body, with EACH part doing it's work is truely possible.
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: I think that even though good was happening, those commisioners (appostles) weren't doing exactly what they had been told to do by Christ in the great commission. They were becoming comfortable and growing in size, rather than multiplying out into Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. God brought persecution to this Jerusalem Church, which caused it to spread and then to multiply as we read that those scattered brought to gospel wherever they went. Interestingly- the commissioners (appostles) stayed in Jerusalem.
Fascinating!!! I had wondered all of this while I was doing this study. I did not comment on it however. The reason being? The fact that this is a speculation, at best.
Problems with this being fact? 1.)No one ever nailed the twelve [apostles] for staying put and appointing the table servers (remember Paul nailing Peter for being a hypocrite?) 2.)We do not know what The Lord told them to do. He may have told them to do exactly what they did. 3.)The church was still meeting in religious buildings in The New Testament. 4.)There had already been, and continued to be exponential growth in the church (Acts 2:41, 2:47, 5:14). 5.)This was done to fulfill a mentioned need, not to shirk a responsibility. (Acts 6:1) 6.) The need called for those that were stable in that community.
This "list" was just off "the top of my head," but there may be more. I think the tendency is to become proud. "Our way is better than their way" is an easy misstep. The truth is, Jesus said that He is "The Way," so we must do all we do in obedience to Him. Well, what do you think?
A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Jeanne, I found your post very interesting and though it made reasonable sense but I hadn't really studied it enough to know whether or not it was true. So I cheated and took a short cut reading the writings of someone whom I knew was better educated in this subject. I quote here my source and would like for you to notice how closely it agrees with your source. It would almost seem as if some plagiarism occurred. Did they list their source? Or, is this simply a case of the Holy Spirit inspiring more than one person with the same thoughts and understanding?
quote: The persecution that came upon the church in Jerusalem resulted in giving a great impetus to the work of the gospel. Success had attended the ministry of the word in that place, and there was danger that the disciples would linger there too long, unmindful of the Saviour's commission to go to all the world. Forgetting that strength to resist evil is best gained by aggressive service, they began to think that they had no work so important as that of shielding the church in Jerusalem from the attacks of the enemy. Instead of educating the new converts to carry the gospel to those who had not heard it, they were in danger of taking a course that would lead all to be satisfied with what had been accomplished. To scatter His representatives abroad, where they could work for others, God permitted persecution to come upon them. Driven from Jerusalem, the believers "went everywhere preaching the word." --Acts of the Apostles
Matthew, you would be proud of me. Inspired by your usage of the interlinear Greek/English studies I did a study of my own tonight on a particular verse that was very confusing to me. I must admit that I learned quite a bit and the verse took on new meaning for me. I hope to share it at a later time. I guess I owe you a big thank you for "pushing" me to dig deeper.
Not that I came up with something new but I did see how some translations may be better interpretations of the Greek than others. I was looking for a meaning that would align better with Christ's teachings. I was able to see that a certain Greek word simply meant "fail, cease, or stop" which had been translated as either "ye fail" or "it fail" depending on the translation I used. And, the verse took on a whole new meaning depending whether you used "ye" or "it".
I'll try to share my findings later but not under this topic.
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: Matthew, you would be proud of me. Inspired by your usage of the interlinear Greek/English studies I did a study of my own tonight on a particular verse that was very confusing to me. I must admit that I learned quite a bit and the verse took on new meaning for me. I hope to share it at a later time. I guess I owe you a big thank you for "pushing" me to dig deeper.
I think I have said this before, But, YOU GO JQLOGAN!!! I can't wait to see what you have been studying!!! A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
What I wrote was my own speculation (yes, Mathew it is speculation ). Neil Cole in Organic Church wrote something similar, but I read the book a good yr and a half after making the observation myself. It seems, thanks to jq, that others have had the same observation as well, which is interesting!
We are not sure exactly what Jesus told the Apostles to do. In a couple places it says He told them to not leave the city until the promised HS came upon them. Then he also says that after receving power when the HS did come upon them they are to go out into all the world to make disciples of all nations. Acts 1:8 says "you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
My observation was that they stayed in the city a lot longer than after they recieved the HS. It took persecution to break things up and get those believers going out, and the original Apostles were not amoung them that went out. I don't have a problem with them appointing table servers as I think organization is important and this is a good example of loose organization- seeing a need, and organizing in order to meet it vs. organization for organizations sake. My point was that when we remain in smaller groups we are able to remain fluid in our use of organization, and less formal appointing of leaders is needed. This keeps us realizing that we ALL need to be taking care of one another, and that we are ALL commanded to go out and bring the gospel to unbelievers. We are less likely to think, oh, Michelle's husband left her and I see she needs some help- but that is what Deacon John was appointed to deal with and I am sure some of the money I give on sunday will be alloted to this need; or, I am just too busy, and certainly not gifted in evangelism, so I will leave that great commission stuff to pastor Ed and the elders....
Oh- and yes, jq- keep us up on what you are studying!
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Hello Jeanne, I really see your point, and it is a really GREAT one. In the house church we go to, the two men "leaders" are the owners of the houses we meet in. (there are so many of us that they meat in two different homes) This is okay I guess, but I think it's still not quite right. It would be wonderful is everyone with any current wisdom was allowed to share that wisdom throughout the fellowship. If we are all one body, why is it often that only the "ear" or the "eye" etc. gets to operate.
For the record, I especially like it when the women are just as free to speak as the men! Y`all have wonderful insights that we men often miss, because we are to busy learning something "logical!"
My wife and I hope to eventually be the host of our own home church, at which time we will attempt to make this "correction" and see what happens.
The only Church I have ever gone to that had it any closer was actually an IC!!! They called their fellowship "deacon led" and a different older and wiser person (yes, sometimes it was even a woman) would "lead" each service. The truth is, more often than not, The Lord would lead the whole thing! I used to drive nine hours (on my three days off a month from a children's home in Indiana) just to be in that Church in Arkansas for two services. I had led the children's church there, and just being surrounded by "my kids" was healing for me. Looking back, the only regret I have now is not letting the children speak more! The Lord saw to it (after I left Arkansas) that they all ministered to each other, just as it should have been. I still miss all of them, even though they are now all grown.
I guess all of this leaves me wondering something ...I wonder why we don't see the exponential growth in The Church that we see in early Acts. Your case can be made, and made quite convincingly.
In my life, I'm trying to find all that was lost (apparently quite early) in The Church. I don't have folks lining the street just so my shadow will fall on them. My shadow has never even healed a sick bug, much less a sick person. I'm looking for the answers. I don't have them yet, but maybe someday...
A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Matthew, have you ever heard of a program called Interlinear Scripture Analyzer? I downloaded it a bit ago and WOW! It's a great program. Open Source. I've been using it to look up some "difficult" scriptures and it really does help.
Matthew, have you ever heard of a program called Interlinear Scripture Analyzer? I downloaded it a bit ago and WOW! It's a great program. Open Source. I've been using it to look up some "difficult" scriptures and it really does help.
Jeff
I have two things to say, jqlogan. First, thank you!!! I have been using their online utilities, but I really wanted something on my hard drive for when I'm not at home. The second thing I have to say is WOW! This is wonderful!!! It is a great program. I had fully decided to go and see if I could find a simple but powerful utility that I could use offline, and here it is, FOR FREE!!! Thanks again, you have truly blessed me this day!
A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
I was downloading ISA2 today on another computer and a message came up saying that the downloading was temporarily suspended due to some search problems with ISA2 RC1-RC4. You can search fine in interlinear but get errors searching versions. They say they will have it fixed in a few days and then you can resume downloading. You may want to download a new copy once they fix the problems.
It's a great program, isn't it? Are you still learning more each time you use it? You have called yourself a heretic for Christ--meaning you oppose traditional religious institutions. Are you finding that many things they taught you simply are not truth?
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: It's a great program, isn't it? Are you still learning more each time you use it? You have called yourself a heretic for Christ--meaning you oppose traditional religious institutions. Are you finding that many things they taught you simply are not truth?
I really like it, but I haven't really done anything fancy with it. I just look stuff up and read ...mostly. What cool things have you found it to do?
To answer your question, I have found MANY things that seem to be totally tradition of man, and some downright un-biblical stuff in the "traditional religious institutions" as you call them. Other things are not directly said, but hinted at and believed by many. I started a topic on the SDA church that you may find interesting, since you have experience there.
Let me state here that I do feel there are wonderful men and women of God in these institutions. I know two [pastors] that I consider my close friends. One of them is ordained in a mainline church.
Also, I used to work as a youth pastor, and a children's pastor as well. I have worked with children in a mainline denomination since I was fourteen years old, both in children's church, and a [camping] type ministry. I have also been on the mission field three times, also with a major youth mission organization. Good times, and great memories!
Also, please let me say that MOST of my time in church was good. However, I was almost always busy with activities (what I thought of as "ministry" at the time) but looking back, I was just busy. Having to sit and listen is what has brought me here. Something about having it shoveled in, with no say-so, seemed to be like ...well, like bondage. That's my story.
Feeling right at home, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Yes, Matthew, Allow me to say a little about my experiences.
I know how busy-ness can detract from a personal relationship with Christ--just as it can detract from close relationships with your family. That is why I still set aside an entire day to spend quality time with God and my family. And I know Jeanne may disagree with me but I do feel it is best to have some discipline with regard to giving--both of our time and our monies. So I have chosen to set aside a particular dollar amount each month and a particluar day each week as a minumum. This is much like setting aside the hours 9-5 for secular work. This does not preclude spontaneous giving or worship nor exclude daily prayer and worship.
Our human natures are very inclined to "doing" instead of "being" so I believe we must exercise control over our emotions and feelings and establish habits of giving and worship through discipline and self-control--which, by the way, is also a gift from God (2Pet1:4-7). Why, even the desire to give and pray are but the Holy Spirit drawing us to God.
I was raised in a church environment growing up as a little boy and was even baptised at age 12. But by age 14 the family was broken up by divorce and church attendance stopped. I really understood very little about the gospel and don't even know now why I was baptised.
I did my own thing until 1995 when the Waco hearings were broadcast on CSPAN. At first I listened with outrage at how our government had handled the situation. But then, intrigued with David's message about the 7 seals I grabbed my Bible and started searching. I studied and read intently--staying up until 2:30am many times--for a period of about 6 months. I learned so much and had pretty much established my beliefs from scripture before I ever stepped foot into an IC. For this reason I can support my beliefs from scripture and don't feel any need to defend anyone else's beliefs--nor could I rightfully do so. My first association with believers was in the setting of a house church which is probably how I ended up on RCC. I've been here forever!
I do understand what you mean by "having it shoveled in" which is similar in thought to your interpretation of feeding the sheep. However, you must think about it in this way. We never feel this way about anything we consider to be a value to us. Think about it. Someone speaks to us about their faith in Christ and if we don't like what we hear we feel they are "pushing it down our throats." But that same person could come to us and discuss a TV program they saw last night and we don't feel threatened at all. Yet, most TV programs promote their own type of religion, don't they. You see, the religion of the world is pleasing to the carnal heart but that of Christ strikes across those wordly desires.
Your topic at hand discusses rank in the church. If you seriously stop and think about it at any length you might discover that you and I contributed much to the problem. And, this idea is Biblical. For the most part Pastors serve at the pleasure of the congregants. What this means for those Pastors who receive a salary from their members is that they need large groups and they must not say anything that would jeopardize their position. So we come to the place where churches have pastors with itching ears and the people love it so.
These wage-earners are dependent upon the church and so they speak smooth things, pleasing things. And, they need to keep bringing new recruits in the front door to fill the seats of those who go out the back door. This requires great organization and effort. It requires attractive programs and buildings. It requires charismatic preachers with all the theatrics. It becomes a very emotional time but hardly of any value. But are we not at fault as well?
So if we want the house church experience to be different from the IC experience there are a few principles we must observe. (BTW, the true test does not come until you have attendees outside your family because the family is pretty much a captive audience. Where can they go?) These principles are:
1) We must never feel that we only have the truth and others do not 2) We must never feel that we have learned all there is to learn 3) We must never exercise anathema simply because someone doesn't agree exactly with our beliefs 4) The home must become the property of the "church" 5) We must never exercise privilege based on home ownership 6) We must accept anyone who comes to learn 7) We must never strive to build our numbers for the sake of numbers alone 8) We must never come to the place where we are afraid to speak the truth but we must never, never come to the place where we will not hear the truth 9) We must never allow emotions and feelings to rule the day so that we waffle between like and dis-like of others depending on whether they please us or not 10) Once committed the home must become a sanctuary for all; so a spirit of tranquility and peace must always prevail
These are just some thoughts I have written down at this moment. I don't know if I covered everything but it can grow, or shrink. Basically, what I am saying is that we not reinvent the IC in the HC. Let's not allow the spirit which controls them to control us. Let's demonstrate that we are different. That we are open to hear and consider someone else's beliefs and to embrace their truth just a eagerly as we are for them to embrace our beliefs. This requires that we have an attitude that is unlike the Laodicean church which felt as though they were in need of nothing. In other words, they probably talked alot but never listened. That is the primary characteristic of someone who believes they know it all. And these folks were so proud that apparently they didn't feel they needed anything from God either. Their prayer consists of, "Lord, I am glad I am not like other men."
So when writing about rank in the church consider this; that rank does not have to be bestowed upon someone in order to exist. It can be assumed or granted by carelessness or indifference. A person can pull rank by excluding someone they disagree with simply because they are able to do so. And what they do not realize is that they appropriate to themselves the authority which belongs to Christ alone and in this they assume to themselves the preogative of God.
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: *snip* Your topic at hand discusses rank in the church. If you seriously stop and think about it at any length you might discover that you and I contributed much to the problem. *snip* ...are we not at fault as well? *snip* So when writing about rank in the church consider this; that rank does not have to be bestowed upon someone in order to exist.
Please speak for yourself. I refuse to say that "I am part of the problem." The fact is, I am trying to fix the problem. The fact is, the last time I entered a church, I walked out because of what the [preacher] was saying and doing. The fact is I had confronted him in private, and then he chose to twist what I said when speaking before the church. The fact is, I confronted him about that in private too, and there was no response. The fact is, when he fully decided to continue in a behavior (that he agreed he had no Biblical foundation for) I walked out ...and he knew why. The fact is, I'm not a "normal" Christian, I'm a heretic! The fact is, I have always tried to do what would please The Lord, and I'm totally NOT into religion. The fact is, I HAVE seriously stopped and thought about it at great length. I have looked for myself, that's why I'm here. That's why I started this thread. There is rank in the church, and it's rank!
Still feeling right at home, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
Houston, we have a problem ...in the Church. I don't mean that in a critical way. It just hurts me to see the immaturity. I don't think we can discuss leadership without adressing the basic immaturity issue. People in our Western society want to do their own thing. Hey, we're free right? We are free to worship or do church the way we feel like. The way we feel comfortable with. But is the Way of Jesus Christ about our comfort? I'm not knocking the freedom, just how far we are willing to go to remain in our own comfort zone. The house church movement, for the lack of a better way of putting it, has not solved our narrow-minded denominational tendency. We just don't go there. Hey bro, you have your very own house church network, that's cool! We have nothing to do with each other. That's cool too. We live on the same block. Well, we are each doing our own thing for God.
The ministry mindset is killing the Church, I think. Our ministry is so often more important than really loving the brethren. We are too often looking for ministry fodder. But I think we are missing the point here. Conservative Baptist or Brethren types tend to gravitate to their own kind. Radical, freaky prophetical types gravitate to their own kind. What ever happened to Christ and the unity of the Holy Spirit kind?
Rather than being spiritual in Christ I see that we have gone only one rung up the food chain, so to speak: from being carnal to being soulish. At one point we will have to be lead further up to a more spiritual plane. Somewhere we will have to rub shoulders with the type of Christians we are uncomfortable being around. Not just that, we will need to love them as Christ loves them. We need that pressure in order to grow. Our earthly parents won't do that for us. Who will inspire us to become spiritual and grow up, and tirelessly prod us onward and upward until we relunctantly do so and see the divine wisdom in it? Well, those then will be our leaders. Until then, I think, we have not done much better than the institutions we see all around us.
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John 2, Welcome! I have a question for you. I understand what you are saying in principal. I even find in our home fellowship many who would not "get along" in [church] perfectly happy and content fellowshipping.
When I first started going, I asked tons of questions (to make sure I wasn't in a cult )and although they answered my questions they would often say, "We don't fellowship around doctrine." I was amased how many times I heard this! I now understand why. They thought I was trying to figure out where they "were wrong" and "fix" them. That was not my intent. I honestly just like to have my theology offended (I have had to question everything I ever heard in [church]) as it has been bringing me much freedom.
However, how would you deal personally with Christians that only want you to believe the way they believe? For example, I have spent the last several days emailing a friend who was trying to convince me that "The Word" (what you think The Lord speaks to your mind and heart) is more important than Scripture (The Bible). I think balance is good, to say the least.
This friend is older, highly educated, and very intelligent. It literally took me two days worth of emails just to make the point that hearing from The Lord on a personal level is wonderful, as long as Scripture agrees with what you are "hearing." AKA conformation!
I have found that some folks (it seems) just live to debate. This is not the case with my friend. He was trying to "help me" so I invested the time needed to cover the topic. However, I have found that this is seldom the case.
Since you could possibly be qualified as an "elder" at this whole home fellowship thing, I am interested in your input into what to do when there is only intent to argue, etc and not fellowship.
If you don't feel comfortable answering without asking me some questions first, I'll be happy to fill in any blanks.
Thanks, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote: The house church movement, for the lack of a better way of putting it, has not solved our narrow-minded denominational tendency. We just don't go there. Hey bro, you have your very own house church network, that's cool! We have nothing to do with each other. That's cool too. We live on the same block. Well, we are each doing our own thing for God. [/QB]
I don't know how much you have read here, yet, but you will find some serious, lovingly obedient disciples who are doing anything BUT "their own thing".
As I see it, the greatest difference between the "Legacy Church" (to use the PC term) and House church is that House church makes it POSSIBLE to obey the commands of Christ, whereas Legacy church makes it impossible. How could I be "led of the Spirit" when I was being so heavily led by a professional clergyman with his own (pay the bills) agenda? How could I love my unsaved neighbor as myself when I was spending all my time inside a facility that my neighbor found revolting? How could I "visit the orphan and the widow" when I was too busy writing curricula for other people's saved children?
It is a personal obedience issue, and as Jesus said, Many are called, but few are chosen. But for the chosen, the liberty that comes with 24/7 autonomy as a family is far superior to anything I experienced in 40 years of Legacy Church.
Thank you for your welcome. It was your posts and the earnestness I hear behind them that prompted me to join in to this discussion.
I think you have a very healthy approach. I agree with you in that what is received personally from the Lord, although possibly amazing and revolutionary in experience and content, yet must be tested rigorously against the Scriptures. The Scriptures protect us as guard rails that keep us from plummeting off the narrow winding road. The higher we go up the mountain road, the more those guard rails become life-savers. Balance, as you have said, is the key. The Spirit and the Word are one.
Having said that, at times however, I have seen revival quenched through a well meaning brother that was trying to bring about balance through a reaction to something that went against his own understanding. A balance that was his idea of balance, not the Lord's. A balance attempt through pressure brought about by his strength of argument; in his own reasoning. This is the soulishness I was talking about. How many of us have "balanced out" the Holy Spirit in this way?
So even here there is a balance. Sometimes we need to lean one way to actually correct a previous imbalance. Here is where wisdom and discernment are so important. Maybe your older friend senses something lacking in you that prompts him to push a certain way. Maybe not. Ask him with the respect due to his age. Maybe the Lord is using a man who is slightly out of balance one way, and doesn't know it, to try correcting another man who is slightly out of balance another way. Or maybe it's just him. In this case he wouldn't know what you are talking about if you asked him about it (again with the respect due to his age). As long as you are open to all these possibilities, which I believe you are, you can get to the bottom of this. I noticed that you said "AKA conformation." I don't know whether you intended that as a pun (instead of confirmation). You are certainly capable of it judging by the name of this thread. Hmm Maybe we can never truly be conformed to the Scriptures by trying, but only through His grace; AKA transformation. =-) Would you agree? The Lord bless you in this.
About those who would pressure you to believe as they do. This of course is a difficulty. Are they acting out of love?
I definitely agree with you that house church opens the doors to individual possibility. But it doesn't close the doors of corporate probability. We are who we are. Different things benefit different people. What's good for one might not be so good for another. This will always be so. But that's not what I was talking about in my first post. It's how far WE (the corporate we) go. For me, if we as individuals move closer to God, that's good. Amen here, sister! But what are WE comparing ourselves with? When can we say that we have done all the Lord requires of us? When can we say we truly represent the ground and pillar of the truth? Realistically, I mean. Together, I mean. In a universal way. The corporate witness. Personal obedience aside. Mother Theresa seems to have done rather well within the confines of a Medieval type institution. She was a supremely resilient and obedient individual who would have no doubt thrived in any flawed form of church. Rather, it is a corporate obedience that I am referring to. Isn't that the purpose of the Church? =-)
Thank you for your welcome. It was your posts and the earnestness I hear behind them that prompted me to join in to this discussion. *snip* I think you have a very healthy approach. I agree with you in that what is received personally from the Lord, although possibly amazing and revolutionary in experience and content, yet must be tested rigorously against the Scriptures. *snip* (again with the respect due to his age)
I'm really sorry I pulled you into this (just kidding! glad you are here) I have lived a nightmare of my own making, by following "the word a minute" voice without waiting on The Lord to confirm what I was hearing. My elder is actually only eighteen months my elder, so I would never treat him with any respect because he is older! I'm 41 if that is important.
quote: As long as you are open to all these possibilities, which I believe you are, you can get to the bottom of this. I noticed that you said "AKA conformation." I don't know whether you intended that as a pun (instead of confirmation). You are certainly capable of it judging by the name of this thread. Hmm Maybe we can never truly be conformed to the Scriptures by trying, but only through His grace; AKA transformation. =-) Would you agree? The Lord bless you in this.
Actually, I am dyslexic. I guess my spell checker let that one get by me. I did intend to type confirmation. I guess I'll have to go back to using an error correcting modem. As far as a perfect belief system based on The Bible goes, I've never met anyone as well balanced as I am. ROTFLMHO at myself! The truth is I have of late been questioning [almost] everything. That's why I'm here, I have found people (for the most part) that think outside of the religious box. Having just escaped, I need their prayers and their wisdom!
quote: About those who would pressure you to believe as they do. This of course is a difficulty. Are they acting out of love?
I don't know. I suppose they are... I try to think the best of folks until they prove otherwise... So let's say they are, do you have any suggestions?
Matthew
P.S. if you want to make nice fancy smiley faces here, these are the ones I have found to work. Just type a colon first, and then... ) [makes a smiley.] ( [makes a blue frowny.] o [makes a red face.] D [makes a big green smiley.] P [makes a green face who sticks out it's tongue.]
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
But it doesn't close the doors of corporate probability. We are who we are. Rather, it is a corporate obedience that I am referring to. Isn't that the purpose of the Church? =-)
Your brother in Christ, John
I'm intrigued by this idea, and have heard similar things from one family in our community, and don't understand it.
Can I have a scripture on that? And a "for instance"?
John 2- I haven't had a chance to welcome you here yet- Welcome!!! Your posts were very thought provoking!
like LA, I would also like to hear more about the corporate obedience that you talked about. In my experience of house church (which is much shorter than yours), I, and others in our group have experienced personal spiritual growth in a way that we hadn't been before house church- but now I, and others are beginning to look more at "what does God want to do in and through us not only individualy, but corporately"? I am speaking mostly corporately as a house church, but also corporately with believers in general- which is how it seems you are also speaking? We have been studying 2 cor., and talked about ch 8 last night- which is about how the cor. church wanted to give to the church in Jerusalem. I have also been reading through Acts and was struck by ch 21 and 22, where Paul returns to Jerusalem and faces persecution (eventually ending up in jail) not only from the Jews, but from jewish believers as well who continue to follow the law, and are upset with Paul that he hasn't required the gentile believers to do the same. (acts 21:20,21) What I notuced is that despite these large differences in belief, the gentile believers in Corinth are fervent in wanting to help the belivers in Jerusalem who are going through difficult times. I guess, my question is, how does this apply to us now? How can we show love to belivers who believe differently than we? Even Paul, who knew he was called to preach to gentiles always went first to the jewish synagoges, where he experienced persecution, but won some over to Christ as well. I really have no answers on this, but am just askig questions- what do you all think?
Thinking the best of folks till they prove otherwise. Hmmm. It sounds like you have a sound foreign policy. : I'm trying your suggestion with the smiley.
While we are on the topic of questioning nearly everything, I have one for you. Are we saved by faith or by faithfulness?
Hi Laurie Ann,
I guess what I'm saying is that there is a difference between what someone is getting out of their fellowship vis a vis what they are putting in. This is based on lots of experience from yours truly. :
The New Testament deals with these issues separately. Paul calls the Corinthian Church carnal, yet I'm sure that people within it were still being blessed...at least to some degree. Paul calls the Galatian Churches foolish...etc
Paul was concerned about the maturity of believers. He was looking at the bigger picture. The writer of the book of Hebrews adresses a general lack of maturity Heb. 5:11-14
For instance, a sports team, let's say hockey, has forward players and defensive players. Plus there is a coach, or coaches, who oversee the players and make sure that they are playing their positions well...or that they are in the right position. All I am saying is...are we winning?
I hope that explains the issue to some degree. So to both Matthew and Laurie Ann. Keep your sticks on the ice!
Thinking the best of folks till they prove otherwise. Hmmm. It sounds like you have a sound foreign policy. : I'm trying your suggestion with the smiley.
While we are on the topic of questioning nearly everything, I have one for you. Are we save
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As far as a perfect belief system based on The Bible goes, I've never met anyone as well balanced as I am. ROTFLMHO at myself! The truth is I have of late been questioning [almost] everything. That's why I'm here, I have found people (for the most part) that think outside of the religious box. Having just escaped, I need their prayers and their wisdom!