posted
OK, let's say you and your dad are summoned before the most powerful leader on earth. You exchange greetings and the first thing Mr. Big wants to know is the age of your dad. "Strange," think you, "very strange." Cf. Gen 47. But not really. Age or eldership meant honor in by-gone days. In the East more than in the West.
And as in the Old, so in the New Testament, elders are frequently compared to younger persons, enabling us to discern their precise identity. "Shall we thus make an "office" out of younger ones as well," I facetiously inquire? Notice how Rehoboam ignored the council of the elders and listened to the younger men. Notice the praise that Ruth received for her interest in an older man. Etc. Older meant better. Of course, there will always be exceptions to this ideal. Take note, as well, that the heathen nations had, and still often have elders. Judg. 11:11, Gen. 50:7, Judg. 8:14.
When we come to the New Testament we meet elders again __with no introduction__. None is needed. The apostles consistently categorized and exhorted the churches according to their age categories and genders. Ever noticed that? If the elder's identity had undergone an inter-testamental change, surely this colossal event would have been mentioned. If it did, THEN WHEN DID SUCH A MATTER OF UNPRECEDENTED WONDERMENT OCCUR?
This would have been the equivalent of going into the local day-care nursery and asking: how are all these little teenagers getting along today. What ?????
In I Peter 5, we see the elders addressed followed by the younger ones. Most readers overlook this plain context. In 1 Timothy 5, we again see the two age designations brought into contrast. Later in the same chapter, we see the word "honor" describing older women - widows, then the same word is employed for the older men or elders. Though vs 3 and 17 are translate differently in most versions, the original word is the same. Check out Titus 2:1-6 to discover this same pattern. This "honor" is also owed to masters by their servants, which would not have involved the transfer of funds.
Acts 2:17 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your *young men will see visions, your *old men (same word in the original) will dream dreams. Can we really maintain that these old men were church officers ?????
In the beginning there was no more an office of elder than there was an office of elder women, who, by the way, were also exhorted that they _must_ do certain things.
Commentators and translators have unfortunately obscured the identity of the elders by translating the original word (presbuteros) sometimes as elder and sometimes as older man. See again 1 Timothy 5 at the outset of the chapter. In novels about espionage, this kind of deception is called "being slipped a mickey." Usually the good guy falls for an attractive female who meets him at a fancy-shmancy restaurant. You know the rest.
Young forty-something Timothy, you recall, was told to do the work of an evangelist not of a pastor and was warned that his youth would be held against him. Seniority denoted maturity. A long life meant blessings from the Most High. Think of the only commandment with a promise.
It is time for the thick veil that has obscured Christian eldership to be torn asunder and cast aside. Every older brother and sister must rise up to their requirements and to their responsibilities towards the younger ones. For some unknown reason, the principle of the older women (presbutees) teaching the younger women has been readily accepted. Not so with the older men or elders who are continually viewed as "church officers."
In the moral vacuum that we, the church, have helped create, the rest of the world has finally figured out this obvious principle on its own: "mentors" or "big brothers" or "big sisters." There are now many, many "mentoring" web sites. Hey, we're gettin' closer. . .
Influential Christian psychologist Larry Crabb recently told Christianity Today Magazine that most of Christian counseling should be scrapped for - you guessed it - _eldering_. Have not each of us chided ourselves in these terms: Oh that I had known then what I know now? You now know it, so show it.
One writer in the home church circle recently published the careless assertion that churches "...should wait 10 years before appointing elders." I say, "Wait a hundred years if you view elders as church officers as the IC also does."
Waiting is in stark contrast to the advise from Paul to Titus, who was to appoint elders in every city. But it all depends upon what is meant by 'appoint'. This particular appointment was to the previously and mutually agreed upon ethical characteristics and work which is immediately cited in the same breath (cf. Titus 1:5ff). These are moral, not academic. Just as Christ has predestined (preappointed) us to the conformation after his image so these elders were appointed to exemplary character - not to an office of elder. They were ==already== elders! Their appointment was to the work of oversight which could only be performed by those as were qualified to do it.
Robert Banks acknowledges the possibility of such a translation on page 147 of "Paul's Idea of Community". I am compiling a growing list of others who prefer this kind of appointment. Believe me, they are not men of inferior learning, despite the fact that such a view upsets a lot of ecclesiastical ox-carts. (cf. the German and Dutch works of these world-class scholars: Joachim Jeremias, Die Briefe and Timotheus und Titus, Das Neue Testament Deutsch, 9, 5th ed. (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1949), 32-33; AND H. Bavinck, Gereformeerde Dogmatiek (Kampen: J. H. Kok, 1967, IV, 326.) Your two favorite bedside companions, right?
But hey there, who needs the confirmation of world-class scholars - we got common sense, don't we?
Just as God has ordained the sun and moon to shine so he has ordained (appointed) that elders exhibit requisite maturity and wisdom for the benefit and example of those surrounding them aka: oversight or bishoping, if you will. This kind of overseeing, leading, teaching, shepherding, or pastoring will be natural, effective, and unofficial - usually unnoticed. In the early days, without birth control and the with prevalent early marriages, the realm of influence of the elder would have been very significant and widespread. His age and honor would have been recognized by the city-church as well, not just in his own house church.
Another disastrous effect of the elder's mistaken identity and supposed hierarchy is that many theologians have been led to reject the authorship and date of the "pastorals" (and thus, somewhat, the integrity of scriptures) because of the imagined "heirarchical prototype that surely would have pointed to a late date." When elders are seen in their true non-official nature, the problem evaporates.
Just as buttoning your shirt with the wrong button first causes all the other buttons to be misplaced so ....
"Dr. Loening (1889) was Professor of Law in the University of Halle (Germany), and the author of a valuable work on Church Law. He had a lawyer's demand for exact evidence and a lawyer's love of precedents. He holds that there was little or no organization in the Christian communities during strictly apostolic times. What we find are little societies of Christians meeting and worshiping together in house churches; we see no traces of office-bearers in the proper sense of the word." (from The Church and The Ministry in the Early Centuries, TM Lindsay, 1902, pp.371, 372). Quotes as this one can be easily multiplied.
In short, elders are essentially the category of persons they have always been and their continuity from Old Testament to New Testament has continued virtually unabated. In short, elders really are elders! Whoa! It's such a non-technical, non-authoritative word that it is usually found in phrases like "elders _of the Church_ or elders _among you_" as compared to the elders of the city, which would have included unbelieving older ones.
But, if you think that making an office out of elders was a crime then take a fresh look, sometime, at the "office of deacon." This "lessor office" of lowly service would have been the highest possible virtue in our Lord's estimation - not the bottom of the totem pole as in today's scheme. Why would Paul, who by the way, called himself and elder and deacon, tell Timothy to have men enter into an office after meeting certain requirements, and then, immediately pronounce that he himself (Timothy) would be a good minister (deacon - same word) if he did so ???? Read a little further down the page and you will be struck by this fact. 1 Tim 4:6. This word for deacon is so general that it applies to the saints, Satan's messengers, civil rulers, even to Christ. So general and basic that Jesus said that we must be one (diakonos) to be great in his Kingdom.
Translators have also routinely switched 'women' for 'wives' to the advantage of their own system. Here, in 1 Tim 3, just as they did in the alleged prohibition passage in I Cor. Notice that the immediate context in 1 Cor is the husband and wife relationship. This isn't a passage about qualifications of deacon's wives or female deacons, but rather about Christian women.
Can we really imagine the early churches paying salaries to a plurality of official elders? The preachers and teachers mentioned in the financial context were the traveling variety - not the local ones. They were those whom our Lord commanded not to take provisions but to be sustained by those into whose house they visited.
I pray that in the days ahead, God's people will resolve this consuming matter. "Elders and deacons" need to be removed for the list of disputed questions asap. If not, plan on someone dangling the concept in front of you to legitimize split-level church life, with you, of course, on the bottom floor.
No one is not going to be struck down dead if they allow officers into their groups, but their implementation has certainly brought no small amount of confusion and an unwarranted seizure of control (and usually of the church funds as well.) The present understanding of some in the HC circle calls for the appointment of officers before you can "have a church." Brethren, this is a joke.
If we compromise this matter and come up with some kind of "official or semi-official pastor", it will, in time, likely become the elephant that eats, eats, and eventually sinks the boat.
Thanks for allowing me to share this. Needless to say, good men differ.
David Anderson
Laqat
posted
I hear you David. Preach it brother!
Laqat
Truth Seeker
posted
"No one is not going to be struck down dead if they allow officers into their groups," appears to be a Frueidian slip. Did you mean a church group will not be struck down dead if it appoints offices? Like the serpent who tempted Adam & Eve saying you shall not surely die. And they didn't die immediately -- they were cast out of Eden, barred from the tree of life, and they died very slowly.
Follow the spirit of truth which caused you to slip and maybe you will see His light.
Can you cite a single passage in favor of having church officers? The "office of deacon" in the pastorals passage is an admitted mistake by scholars. The word -office- was "added" for clarity.
Since you like to correct others you might want to check the spelling of "Freudian." There is only one i in it.
You wrote, "If not, plan on someone dangling the concept in front of you to legitimize split-level church life, with you, of course, on the bottom floor."
If indeed an elder were to ask for a split-level arrangement, he would be taking the lower, rather than higher, place. Esteeming others better, receeding into the background to allow others opportunity and exercise, assisting and coaching gently, quietly, enjoying seeing others grow and mature and know the joy of serving themselves as the elder has long learned.
Have you read Dr. Stacy Rinehart's "Upside Down: The Paradox of Servant Leadership?" A valuable treatment of a misunderstood (well, or ignored) biblical model of servanthood, a leader without authority or power of position. Robert Banks I think turned Greenleaf's "Servant Leader" phrase upside down by coining his own version, "Leading Servants."
A brief Robert Banks summary on leadership and elders is at http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~summit/essays005.htm
David, where are you, Tennessee? I am in North Carolina. I'd like to meet you.
-Art Mealer
Rick Carr
posted
Thank you so much for these words. I actually just stumbled on to it, copied it to a word processor file for later reading. Later reading finally took place today. I didn't realize how recent it was, much less that it was in part a response to my own earlier inquiries re: elders.
David, it really makes sense. Elders are elders.
A few years ago, it would have been a real stretch for me to accept it. I come from an incredibly traditional baptist background. (A few years ago my parents visited the cell group church we were attending in FtWorth and Mom said she cried all the way back to Shreveport because I'd left my baptist roots. I told her I hadn't left them, I had only followed my upbringing to it's logical conclusion.) I've realized lately I'm still on that journey.
Much of what I believe today is the result of things I learned in the ic. I am grateful for the clear teaching on "essential doctrines," salvation, trinity, etc. Other foundational truths were there, just not correctly interpretted or fully applied, but they have served as the basis on which the Lord has worked to lead me through the years. In some ways my heritage kept me in bondage, and in others it is the very thing which facilitated my liberty. I at times abhor it and at times rejoice in it, but I never again want to embrace it.
Rick Col.2:6
Daniel N
posted
"Young elders" seems like a contradiction of terms.
Too bad Paul didn't give us a minimum age, like running for President of the USA.
But I think the Jews, who knew a LOT about Elders, had fixed concepts, and it would have been unthinkable in the First Century to have appointed young men in their twenties as elder.
IMHO.
[Note: This message has been edited.]
David Anderson
posted
I agree that this phrase young elders is indeed oxymoronic and hope as time unfolds that we can explore this in great detail. Be forewarned that not all HC people are in unanimity about its meaning.
Scholars say that Timothy was about about 40 when he was counseled by Paul to flee youthful lusts and to let not his youth be despised.
To still be in the youthful category at 40 is good news to some of us.
Perhaps there is no specific age cited because the term itself is relative and variable in differing circumstances. If you were 40 and in a group of seniors of 60 and up you would be the younger. If among teenagers, you would be older or elder.
This concept of the elders overseeing, pastoring, and mentoring is broadened even more when you consider that it's the elders (comparative) not just the eldest (superlative) who are to undertake these tasks which are nowadays delegated to clergy persons.
Also, I very much appreciated the way that Daniel stepped backwards a few days to entertain this question from the Kleins. Let's all be on the look out for questions that don't receive an immediate response.
David A from Tennessee
1Pet. 5:1 To the *elders* among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1Pet. 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers --not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;
1Pet. 5:3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.
1Pet. 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1Pet. 5:5 *Young men*, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
Fenelon
posted
There is a difference between "elders' and "olders". I am elderly in the age sense but not yet an elder in the biblical sense. More than age, the word of God talks about NOT "the qualifications" but the fruit by which one recognizes spiritual authority in the local expression of the body of Christ. Out Lord taught that by their fruit ye shall know them. When one studies carefully the qualities and lifestyle of an elder is is the kind of life that someone would emulate. Contrary to many, (since we have not apostles to appoint elders - which is another issue) it is important that we have guidelines for recognizing mature examples for the flock. In fact the scriptures talk of "taking the oversight' and "ruling by example".
In my first "church' experience I prayed diligently as to how I was to relate to my new family and why I was there (as opposed to being in a home fellowship- which is where I wanted to be). In my Spirit I heard these words, "Watch these two men" "observe their lives". One was brother mastin Ray (gone to be with the Lord many years ago) and the other brother Roy Thomas - a considerably younger man). Both would be "qualified" to be called elders. Their lives exhibited the maturity and shepherding ability of the good shepherd.
In a christian world gone crazy over "learning",, it was valuable for me to learn the lesson..that true spirituality can still be discerned "by their fruits".
It was for me a valuable lesson in how to recognize a truly spiritual man. i hope someday that my life will speak as eloguently as did theirs.
fenelon
Fenelon
posted
One final word. It just occurred to me that when out Lord returns it will be for a church without "elders" (in the age sense that is!) After all, he is coming for a church without sport or "wrinkle".
posted
I am glad you corrected yourself. Could it actually be heaven without sports?
------------------ Rick, So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, Ephesians 2:19
posted
It seems to me that the term "elder" in the new testament looks more upon spiritual maturity than physical age. In Hebrews we are told repeatedly that the things of old covenant were but shadows or types of the heavenly reality (new covenant). The word "elder" by definition is always a relative term. When Paul appointed elders in the various cities, some of those ch--(sorry,I just can't say the "c" word anymore)some of God's groups were very new. Watchman Nee points out that the believers in some cities were all less than a year old. Who was appointed elders then? Those who were spiritually more mature (older) than the others. Makes sense to me.
posted
Who among us is being used as a leader to an older, spiritually immature saint? I am teaching and modeling...leading folks older than myself, trying to arouse the desire to mature in some cases. Many have been molded into the mindset that the "average saint" is often an onlooker, giving mental agreement to concepts, but willing to leave the actual ministering to an assumed clergy. Even teaching the truth of plural eldership to older folks doesn't always produce the desired results, quickly. Some old dogs don't want to learn many new tricks. You can take the saint out of the IC, but you don't always quickly take the IC out of the saint. My dream is to finally reach a generation who have no history of being in the IC, so we won't have to untrain them.
-------------------- Acts 2:38-The Seal of Salvation
posted
I have just joined. here is a view about the "elder" question: in the Koine Greek, an elder was generally considered a shepherd (lat. pastor). One of critical qualifications of a shepherd i.e. Moses, Abraham, David, etc. on into the church age is the committment to the flock - not to serve and protect - but also that the "sheep hear My voice". no self-respecting sheep is going to follow a shepherd whose "voice" he doesn't recognize. Oh, to be sure, there are conservatively several houndred thousand "sheep" wandering around, eating foul weeds and looking for a home; but then that's just the problem, isn't it? Our Lord Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me..." So, then a true shepherd must be able to speak "Jesus", or the true sheep will never follow. It seems to me that we have elders, and then we have "elders", yes?
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