"Let a women learn in quietness with all submission" (I Tim. 2:11)
"I (an apostle) do not premit a woman to teach or to have authority of a man" (v. 12)

"you permit (a) woman...to teach" (Rev. 2:20)

I don't know about other women, but I wouldn't feel comfortable confronting a man about sin he's in...

When we study the gospels we see that Jesus's ministry was excedingly liberating towards women for the times and you do not detect the 'permission' theme in his relationship with them, although you do with some of his disciples.

Some say the elders are older people in the church but I cannot buy into that as we also know Timothy was young and also an elder.

1 Ti. 4:12
Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.

Paul is appointing Timothy to the position of elder who is to be an example to the flock under him, yet he is youthful. Some say he is not an elder but by all definitions and in context I would have to disagree. Anyone who is saved is an elder as then they are "blameless." Only then can you understand the Spiritual and build others up in faith and love.

Also, we are not supposed to live by the letters written in ink but by the Spirit of the living God (2 Cor. 3:3). What they did in the early church is to be read with our Spirit. The Spirit will understand the spiritual realities more than the wisdom of man can discern. All throughout the epistles we learn that love for one another through faith in Christ are the most important goals.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

One more thing: Women in ancient Rome were not permitted to teach by law. 1 Cor. 14:34 admits this much in saying "as the law [nomos] says." Well, we know we are not under law but grace, and nomos can also mean precept of the land or custom. Also in light of the fact Paul was all things to all people to win some of them to Christ (1 Cor. 9:22), I believe today the practical thing to do is to let mature Christian woman use their experience in the word to build the body in love and faith as an elder in the church. There are women sitting on the supreme court and teaching in major universities. How can we become like them to win them to Christ if we are stuck living by the rules of ancient Rome?

Also, in Christ there is no distinction: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:28). And this is the point we should all be in agreement on from our election forward: we are all partakers of the age to come.

Timothy is commanded "to do the work of an evangelist" and is also called a "minister" or "deacon." He is not referred to as an elder simply because he is a young man.

Thank God he uses us despite our inability to understand these terms.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The above Scripture indicates Timothy was appointed for more than just evangelism. For one thing, the word "preach" is in the 2nd persons singular. Paul is writing to Timothy and says to preach the word, reprove, rebuke, exhort with patience and instruction. He is to be a teacher of sound doctrine. 1 Tim. 4:12 says he is to be an example to "those who believe," not just to unbelievers.

In a similar way, Paul was an elder who was also an evangelist. He was all things to all people and is entrusting this responsibility to Timothy as well. How do you read the verses before the one you quoted?

Preaching or proclaiming the gospel was the work of any Christian, thus those "who were scattered abroad went preaching."

Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

So, are these also elders?

You appear to be making an unwarranted inference. Again, can you dmonstrate from Scripture that Timothy is an elder?

David Anderson

As I said in my post above, re: 1 Tim. 4:12, it says Timothy is to be an example to "those who believe," not just to unbelievers." That is what an elder is supposed to do, lead the flock by example.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

2 Thessalonians 3:9
not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example.

Again, every Christian is to be a model. We are the lights of the world and salt of the earth. No exceptions.

According to your logic, everyone who offered a prayer for the sick would be an elder, since elders are enjoined to do such. James 5:14.

Again, does Scripture refer to Timothy, the younger, as Timothy, the elder?

You are making assumptions based on your preconception that "elder" means "older" in the natural sense of the word. I am tying to demonstrate that "elder" means one who is a "mature" Christian, who is appoved of God, not a "babe" in Christ. Therein lies our difference. Now, if you were to look at it this way it would all fit together like hand in glove. I cannot open your eyes to it other than to continue to post what the Scripture says.

One thing for sure is Paul addressed the book to Timothy and it is full of what it is to be an elder. I do not know how anyone can overlook this fact. Also, he was given the responsibilty to be an example to "the flock" or those who believe. Yes, we are light and salt all of us, but some of us are appointed to be examples to the flock, to preach to, reprove, exhort and teach with sound doctrine. That is what an elder is supposed to do, not necessarily what they are doing in the church today, but that is another issue.

2 Tim. 2:4
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers.

1 Tim. 4:12-14
Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

The original word for female elders, btw, is the same basic word as male elders. As in Latin, so in the Greek, the last few letters of the word determine the gender.

Female elders are certainly addressed in the Scriptures. To ask they are "Biblical" is to ask amiss. Granted, to many the phrase conveys a much different concept.

David Anderson

I believe that in old times (OT) eldership was a personal status that everyone achieved from a certain age up. I also believe that it is safe to say that these 'elderly people' were revered in ways uncommon to our present society.
I believe that the reason that Scripture does not describe qualifications for these 'presbuteros', is because there was no question at all about who they were and what they did or how their lives ougth to be. At least among the Jews...

The people involved in judgement and decision-making were 'older-people', more specifically 'older MEN'. Age meant experience, which demanded respect. I think that the older-people among the Jews actually were 'respectable', something that isn't as common anymore in our day and culture.
Is was the men that sat at the gates and conferred about social and judicial issues. Among these men were the men that were the leaders in the synagogues. This was totally accepted procedure back then, there were no discussions concerning this or we would be reading about it in Scripture.

I suspect that in Ephesus and Crete, respectability wasn't as normal among elderly people as it was with the Jews. Could it be that elderly-men among these heathens weren't always respectable enough to engage in forms of leadership in the church?
Perhaps this is why Paul specifically placed nuances on 'episkopos', men that were necessarily appointed to function as overseers, men who adhered to very specific qualifications (1Ti3, Ti1) to be found acceptable for the task of making important church-related decisions.

Since these things were so normal to the Jews that we read no qualifications for them, I think it is safe to assume that all their 'elders' (presbuteros) serving as leaders (as was their totally accepted 'job' throughout history) adhered to the same principles (qualifications) as the ones given for 'episkopos'. I'm even tempted to believe that almost all elderly-jewish-christian-males were in fact 'episkopos'.
In these new churches among the heathen nations, guidelines had to be given because these were people who did NOT grow up with Jewish tradition and principles, standards and morals.
These guidelines for 'overseers' (episkopos) are still very much applicable among us heathens today.
'Presbuteros' has nothing to do (directly) with spiritual maturity, but spiritual maturity IS inferred.

Age STILL matters and the seniors among us are a lot more valuable than most of us realize today. This is such a waste, a work of the devil, that elderly people are put in old-folks homes instead of on the pulpit and spiritual battle-field.

I pray that there will be more seniors that will rise up in ACTION for our Lord Jesus Christ and more worthy senior-men in leadership.

Look how these passages echo your idea of "letting each."

The spiritually gifted, rather than "church officials" were a conspicuous feature of the early gatherings. By God's grace, we can adopt this excellent arrangement, the benefits of which are to numerous to list. I earnestly believe that texts like these have been overlooked:

Romans 12:6-8 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, LET us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, LET us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, LET him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Cor. 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

And don't forget 1 Cor 13, which follows one of the "giftings" passages. Love must prevail or all is lost, just as you said, mate.

What a world it would have been if Christians had been using their gifts all this time!!!! Truly, the saddest words of tongue or pen - the words are these: It might have been.

Definition, imo, is just the friendly explanation of terms. It's part of what Jesus had in mind when he commissioned us to teach others to observe all things. -- Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. -- It is true that we are not to be overbearing with our views or argumentative is how we express them. Your very post was, in essence, a definitive statement. I agree with your conclusion, that elders or those who have gone before in an unofficial capacity are what the apostles had in mind. Such a view, if followed, would completely divest the church of the clergy/laity system.

In summary, with respect to services of love rendered to the gathered saints, God informs us that if you CAN, then you MAY. An office or position is NOT required.

David Anderson

Definition, imo, is just the friendly explanation of terms. It's part of what Jesus had in mind when he commissioned us to teach others to observe all things.

Your post is a good place to close this thread. It's large enough. Another can be opened by anyone and anytime concerning the same theme. Once they become larger than 100k, they are hard to follow.

People, including you and I, do not know what has not been revealed to them. May the Lord use you in the ongoing work, brother.

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I (understand), except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

David Anderson