God's goal for us is that every man be an Abraham. Abraham's household was "The Kingdom of God on the Move".
When the NT writers were talking about a "man of peace" "a household of faith" Abraham's household would have been what they had in mind.
So, here's an exercise: Look at the action and life of Abraham. Did he do all the things that a "church" is supposed to do? Which sub-story shows best a full gathering of believers? What did the "elder's meeting" look like in his day? What did his proclamation to the nations look like? Who were his spiritual mentors? Who held him accountable for his sin in betraying Sarah? Who was he discipling? When God gave him the commission to "bless the nations", did he quit his livelihood? What was his reputation among others? What religious rituals did he observe? How did he encounter God?
Bonus question: Which of Abraham's descendants appears in the book of Job?
quote:Laurie Ann said: So, here's an exercise: Look at the action and life of Abraham. Did he do all the things that a "church" is supposed to do? Which sub-story shows best a full gathering of believers?
I don't know? I've just come from the school of "this is the way we should NOT do things. I have no idea how we ARE supposed to do things. I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you take me to school?
quote: What did the "elder's meeting" look like in his day?
Wasn't he it? Maybe just a bunch of old guys sitting aroung eating, drinking and talking? Did I get close?
quote: What did his proclamation to the nations look like? Who were his spiritual mentors?
I have no idea.
quote: Who held him accountable for his sin in betraying Sarah? Who was he discipling?
Okay, The Lord held him accountable, and he was discipling his son.
quote: When God gave him the commission to "bless the nations", did he quit his livelihood?
He did not quit his livelihood.
quote: What was his reputation among others?
He was highly respected, however he had more than one wife, so he would not qualify to be a table server in the church today.
quote: What religious rituals did he observe?
He spent time in prayer I guess, and offered sacrifices to The Lord when he was thankful for something.
quote: How did he encounter God?
The Lord walked with him and ate with him, on at least one occasion.
quote: Bonus question: Which of Abraham's descendants appears in the book of Job?
I never got these right in school either... Job himself?
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Good try, Matthew! Go to the top of your class, because I'm sure any pastor you have ever lived under, any Sunday School teacher, any cell leader, has not even thought about the questions - and now you have!
Perhaps the most pernicious thing about programmatic church, is the "Sunday School View and Answers" we have in mind.
For example: How many people were there when the Angels meet Abraham? His household numbered in the hundreds, according the report of the War With The Canaanites. And how often do we learn about "Abraham's Wars"? He was every bit the warrior as Joshua or David, and yet that is never talked about. Flannelgraph pictures are way, way off!
Elders would have been represented in many of the stories. Lot was an elder, and we see Abraham "mutually submitting" to him several times. The episode of Abraham buying a field ( a hugely significant moment historically - the nomad buys his first piece of the promised land!) is exactly what an "elders meeting" is. The community has something going on, and they all meet to discuss it. It was issue-driven, not program driven. In his interactions with "kings", he was rebuked, encouraged and challenged. Keep in mind that "kings" is not like medieval kings with pomp and robes, but Abraham was the king of his tribe, and these other men were kings of theirs. Chieftain would be a better word, except in the case of Pharaoh, who had more of a settled "court".
"Church" , which of course means "a gathering of citizens for a purpose" but used in the Kingdom of God sense, would have been best represented by the arrival of the Angels (messengers? apostles?) to tell Abraham about the upcoming destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. They ate, fellowshipped, taught, prophesied, and prayed. If you put a crowd around every scene in these passages, because we know that his household numbered hundreds, suddenly every meeting between God and Abraham looks very different! For example, the Blood Covenant meeting, where Abraham sacrificed a number of animals and split them in half and God's Shekinah walked between the pieces (that was symbolic of "may this happen to me if I break this covenant") was probably a large gathering and a feast in honor of that covenant.
Abimelech held Abraham accountable for his sin in the matter of Sarah. Abraham was mentoring Lot, and his whole household of hundreds, as well as his children and grandchildren by Ishmael and the Children of Keturah. Evidently he had a spiritual companionship with the King of Salem, Melchizedek, who served as the "priest" (go-between) when Abraham wanted to give a special offering to God.
Two of the men addressing Job, have their lineage mentioned which can then be found in Genesis as being from other offspring of Abraham other than Isaac. It is probable that Job was, as well. The Bible says that Abraham sent the children of Keturah away "to the East" and then in Job it says, "men of the East"...
I brought up Job, because his story, too, is an excellent example of the function of community that we should be aiming for.
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Sorry it took me all day to get back to you on this, but one of the men in our home fellowship needed help on his house. He is adding a new study and bathroom, and I have helped him with the wiring in the past. Today he was putting in the insulation, and I can work in it all day without much problem. It eats most people up, so I was helping him today.
The whole Abraham thing is very interesting. I'll have to dive into that and see what's going on there. I don't spend much time in the Old Testament, because I'm not Jewish. I remember the first time I had my theology offended in regards to the Old Testament being very prophetic in regards to The New. This is all very fascinating.
Now I have a question. Laurie Ann, if you could write a book and describe the "perfect Church," (you know, The Church without spot or blemish) what would it look like? Can you give me a typical day of fellowship?
As far as I'm concerned (I think you will probably agree) I feel like I spent all day in Church today. We had a great time together, we accomplished something that needed to be done, (blessed a brother who acts like a brother) we ate together, and even played a video game and set up a train for the children. To me, that's better than going to any Easter Sunday service in the world, and it's not even Sunday yet!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Dear Matthew, Never apologize for BEING the Kingdom in your community instead of TALKING about it at the RCC!
The Old Testament is absolutely, positively critical to understanding "The Way To Live".
Many people have trouble with the balance: either they ignore the importance of the OT or overvalue the "rites" and miss the point!
The only part of the OT that doesn't apply is the stuff regarding the sacrifices -- and even then, Jesus, as the Ultimate Sacrifice, can only be understood in the context of all the "ante-types" of God's history.
Everything else -- God's attitudes toward sin - and which ones "lead to death", his love for man, the reason the world is the way it is, even the laws regarding "uncleanness" and health all apply now as well as then.
To read the story of Abraham, or the story of David with the attitude, "This is who God favors. This is what a Friend of God looks like. This is how God deals with people" is revelationary. The whole idea that God changed between the Old Testament and the New is nonsense: the only thing that changed is that his forgiveness was accomplished (now past tense instead of prophetic), and his Spirit came to dwell in men permanently, instead of in passing. David cried out, "Take not your Holy Spirit from me" (Psalm 51) and Jesus said, "DONE!"
He will still require "life for life" and still requires restitution, so that a person can be "made right" with other people. The idea that people are supposed to get away with being lawbreakers is not right - just the ability they will have to be "regenerate" if they repent will be very helpful in stopping their sin. once they have made restitution. Jesus persuaded Zaccheus to make restitution for his thievery - his willingness to do that demonstrated his understanding and transformation.
The laws regarding "germs" alone are enough evidence of the Divine Origin of the Scripture to carry the whole book. For example, did you know that the incenses and oils God prescribed for the priests are all "anti-bacterial"? God gave the priests the job of being "physicians" to their people, gave extrememly medically sound advice about the most common complaints, and then gave them ways of fighting off the bacteria before they "went outside the camp" where the sick people were. He thought of everything.
A perfect day, huh?? I think you just told us about it! As far as I can tell, living out "Love Your Neighbor" and "Take care of your family" and "Know God" are all we are supposed to do. Occasional gatherings where you focus on talking about doing those three things are necessary, but I'm not sure of the timetable on that. Our family talks kingdom of God 24/7, breakfast-lunch-dinner and house to house, as schedules and desires permit. I'm finding that very satisfying, and I find there is less tension between the secular and the sacred. I no longer wait for God to show up, I'm aware of him much more of the time.
It is said that a missionary tried to approach a Fulani man to win him to Jesus. The Fulani man said, "When I can carry your church on my camel, then I will listen to you."
OH! IF ONLY THAT MISSIONARY HAD KNOWN! Yes! The Kingdom of God rides your camel with you! Only "Believe and Follow" and God will be with you wherever you go!
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An appendix to all that: Another great resource: Building On Firm Foundations by New Tribes Mission (http://www.ntmbooks.com/index.jsp?categoryid=3)
This is the "Overview of God's Promise" that is probably what Jesus was referring to on the Road to Emmaus. "He opened their eyes to see Him in the Scriptures."
Perhaps you have heard that the Church in Africa is "A mile wide and an inch deep". A lot of that problem has to do with the preaching of the Gospel starting with the New Testament. Without a foundation, the Good News isn't really Good News, because we have not yet grasped the Bad News!
Building on Firm Foundations was written for the mission field. I use it with my family, especially my kids, to make sure they know the Big Picture of God's promise and his plan for His Kingdom. Get Volumes 1,2 and 3 for about $40.
Perhaps Matthew's little daughter, and Matthew too, would benefit. Oh! And it is very cheap considering that it is everything you need to know about the Bible but don't know how to ask and it is an evangelism tool for the future as well. Storytelling the basics is going to be important in our media saturated age.
Laurie Ann
appendix 2: I was just thinking that reading the Story of Jesus' Life on Earth without reading the previous history would be like watching only the end of a movie like Miracle, or Hoosiers. You just can't appreciate the Victory until you have understood the challenge... and the players.
Thank you for your bold post regarding the value of the OT. It bears repeating.
quote: "The Old Testament is absolutely, positively critical to understanding "The Way To Live".
Many people have trouble with the balance: either they ignore the importance of the OT or overvalue the "rites" and miss the point!
The only part of the OT that doesn't apply is the stuff regarding the sacrifices -- and even then, Jesus, as the Ultimate Sacrifice, can only be understood in the context of all the "ante-types" of God's history.
Everything else -- God's attitudes toward sin - and which ones "lead to death", his love for man, the reason the world is the way it is, even the laws regarding "uncleanness" and health all apply now as well as then.
...The whole idea that God changed between the Old Testament and the New is nonsense..."
He will still require "life for life" and still requires restitution, so that a person can be "made right" with other people.
I was just reading the other day and came to this understanding. I hear so often and seem to read in scripture that the law of Moses is irrelevant to us today. Well, certainly it is in the way it was applied by the Jewish leaders. But Paul makes this statement in 1 Cor 9.
quote: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
Paul says that this thing which was written in the law of Moses was for the sake of the early church and thus for us. But then I found that what is commonly called the law of Moses is actually the law of God. God instructed Moses what to write and Moses wrote it out. I guess that is why it came to be called "The Law of Moses." But Paul says that what was written in "the law of Moses" was from God. "Or, saith [God] it altogether for our sakes?" But it is somewhat confusing when scripture keeps referring to the law as if it were authored by Moses and not merely written out by him.
Laurie, thanks for sharing your thoughts. They have truly blessed me. Yes, we must be practical people and God has been very practical with us. He has given us instructions on cleanliness, sanitation, diet, etc, etc, etc... Everything needful for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Everything needful for body, soul, and spirit. Bless be our God for ever!
Amen!
BTW, I believe that restitution is among those things "meet for repentance" mentioned by John the Baptist (Matt 3:8) and Paul (Acts 26:20). John says to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. Paul says do the works meet for repentance. What kind of profession of faith would it be to a nonbeliever if you told him that God has forgiven you while you still owe him restitution? Among the first things laid upon my heart by the Holy Spirit was restitution. I made a list of every injustice brought to my mind and then I set about the task to make it right. Sometimes I had to simply give money (+ interest) to the Lord's work because I could not locate the injured party. But I was able to make right so many wrongs. I thank God for that privilege.
(PS. I am very fond of the New Tribe work. They believe in laying a good foundation and then presenting Christ as the hope and Savior. As you said, How can we appreciate what Christ has accomplished for us if we don't understand the reasons why. Have you seen the video Taliabo (sp?)?)
2 years ago when we were first starting our home church I read a sudgestion on this forum to take the kids through the New Tribes material for children. I assume now that this advice came from you. Thank you! It has been great! Both for the kids, and for the other mom and I who have been teaching the material. It does an excelent job of presenting the whole idea of scripture from beginning to end!
One thing that I learned from the material is the example of Abraham- and others- of how we are to relate to God- through belief and faith in the coming savior(who has of course now come)- willingness that leads to obedience (an obedience to God that preceeded the law). Laurie Ann did such a good job of explaining this example of Abraham in this thread. The NTM material spoke of the main understanding to gain from the law as an understanding of our inability to work our way to God- contrastng works with faith.
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Guilty as charged, Jeanne. I'm so glad it was a blessing!
Yes, Jeff, it is a disgrace what the Word of God has suffered at the hands of abridgers! I'm reading a bit of "The Christian and the 'Old' Testament" by Kaiser, and something that struck me is that in every NT reference to "Scripture" or "God's Word" or "God's Law", it's referring to the Covenant that Jesus came to fulfill - not the NT, since it hadn't been written yet. "All Scripture is useful..." Jesus, Peter, Paul, all considered it still relevant.
Another thought: People I know who have truly "gone the distance" in their Christian walk, diligent and showing fruit, are people who had, early in their walk, a teacher who started them reading, studying and understanding the Old Testament. As for me, shortly after my dramatic conversion at age 9, I received my "Church Attendance" Bible from my own liberal church. I wasn't instructed - but I received a Bible, and I didn't know any better than to start at the beginning! Sadly enough, when I started to believe it and share it, I found out I was the only one there who knew that it was "The True and Infallible Word of God".
You said:-A lot of that problem has to do with the preaching of the Gospel starting with the New Testament. Without a foundation, the Good News isn't really Good News, because we have not yet grasped the Bad News!-
That is almost verbatim what I always say. While it is the fruit of the NT that gets the ball rolling, there is no fruit that lasts without roots. I tend to see the NT as the answer to the question which is presented in the OT. A cosmic formula if you will. We don't truly understand things until we get the whole formula. Memorizing an answer, no matter how right, doesn't provide any understanding. We love the beauty of the NT, and we are tempted to pluck this beauty out to admire it and keep it for ourselves. But, as the beauty of a flower fades rapidly when severed from it's roots, so the NT that is severed from it's OT roots.
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Oh, I hope you don't mind if I share a humorous allegory here...
(From a private message)
<< I believe the law still has a purpose to reveal sin in our lives. We are not under the law as a means of attaining to the righteousness of God and no one ever has been in God's eyes. But if we are found to be transgressors of the law then indeed we are under the condemnation of the law. There is no question that none will attain to God's righteousness by the works of the law. That needs to be removed from our equation. The purpose of the law was two-fold. To reveal God's definition of righteousness and to reveal sin in our lives. This two-fold purpose was to lead sinners to repentance and to bring them to Christ as their Savior.
Let me illustrate with a simple allegory. You are sitting in a kiddie pool in your backyard, inside your fence, playing with rubber duckies. A man suddenly appears, jumps into your pool, grabs you up in his arms and sets you on dry ground. Then he says, "I saved you!" You would then ask, "From what?!?!" You were in no peril and so you did not appreciate his rescue.
Now consider this. You are far out in the ocean and your boat sinks leaving you treading water among the circling sharks. You feel them nudge you and see no hope of surviving. Suddenly, a man appears, jumps into the water, grabs you up in his arms and sets you on a dry deck of his boat. Then he says, "I saved you!" Now how do you feel about your savior?
I think that in their efforts to stress grace without the works of the law the preacher has gone too far. So far that now the law is considered obsolete. What should be sharks in a bottomless abyss of sin has been turned into duckies in a kiddie pool. Could this account for our casual appreciation of what Christ has done for each one of us? He died so we could live. He jumped into our "kiddie pool" and was torn to pieces by our "rubber duckies."
Jesus told a story about two debtors who owed their master money. One a great sum, the other not so great. The master forgave them both their debt. Then He asked the question, "Which loved his master the most?" The obvious answer is, "The one forgiven the most." This is the purpose of the law. To point out how great is our debt. Regardless whether we consider ourselves chief of sinners or a pretty good person, our sin, whether great or small, results in death. It is the law that demands our death. Thus, the law, when used properly, should drive us to Christ for mercy and grace to forgive a debt we can never pay.
The law was given so sin would become, or be viewed as, exceedingly sinful. So that sin would be seen in its true light. And, so no one could say, "I'm a good person." When we look at the law we see ourselves as we truly are and it is then, and only then, that we can appreciate a Savior. Otherwise, we feel we are merely swimming among the duckies and we cannot appreciate a savior. >>
quote:Laurie Ann said this, quite some time ago: Dear Matthew, Never apologize for BEING the Kingdom in your community instead of TALKING about it at the RCC!
Okay, sorry I said I was sorry. I have been totally living life instead of posting here, and life is good! My little one is watching “Snoopy Come Home,” so I have some time for RCC.
It is almost summer here, and the house we live in was abandoned for up to three years, (stories the neighbors tell differ somewhat). Anyway, I have been working to get the pool functional.
I had drained it last fall of the three years (or so) of decomposing leaves and garbage, cleaned it out, refilled it, and then covered it with the makeshift pool cover HUD had over it [and a new blue tarp] (once I altered the pool cover to actually fit the pool). Then winter came.
When we took the cover off this spring, we were surprised to find that there was no water in the pool!
I re-cleaned the pool again, found and fixed the leak, repainted the whole pool, refilled half of the pool, repaired the underwater light, refilled the pool to check the pump (and to check for more leaks).
The pump worked for about five minutes (just like the light had) and then started smoking (just like the light had). I then discovered a leak near the top of the pool, and fixed that as well. I then opened up the bottom vacuum drain, (which the previous owner had plugged [apparently] thinking that's where the leak was). I then had to replace our missing fence (around the pool) for safety's sake, and I then dismantled the “pool cover.” Everything is now ready, once I install a new pump.
To top all of this off, I have also been going back and forth to my friend's house helping him with his wiring and insulation work. Itch, itch, itch (but not bad). I have also been getting some sun and dealing with getting a new pickup truck (new to me anyway) that my friend (the one I am helping with his house) no longer needed. It was “truck dirty” and I spent two days: steam cleaning the interior, polishing the rims, washing, waxing, and making minor repairs. It now shines like new!
quote:The laws regarding "germs" alone are enough evidence of the Divine Origin of the Scripture to carry the whole book. For example, did you know that the incenses and oils God prescribed for the priests are all "anti-bacterial"?
I didn't know that. That is interesting! You want to hear something else interesting? When my scientist friend was here, he told me something I did not know (which is not hard coming from him). There is no scientific finding they refer to as “fact.” With all of the stuff they know to be true about germs, it is still called “germ theory.” This is done only to help validate the evolutionary theory. If they called something “the germ fact” that would lessen the impact of saying “the evolutionary theory.” This distinction would place it where it belongs, as only a theory! Interesting no?
quote:A perfect day, huh?? I think you just told us about it! As far as I can tell, living out "Love Your Neighbor" and "Take care of your family" and "Know God" are all we are supposed to do.
You know something, that is part of why I disappeared here. I have tremendous head knowledge, but I feel I need to walk in the practicality of having my whole belief system upended (after finding error in the King James and the church) before I can be of use. I have spent my whole life telling folks about what I know The Bible says (debate and all that rot) when I should have only been telling folks “what great things The Lord has done for [me].” I know my foundation will always be The Bible, but I fear to continue to tell folks, “go be warmed and filled” when I haven't offered them any real physical solutions... which reminds me of someone who did actually do something and sent me some kefir. Also, working with my friend, and having him give me a really great deal on the truck, has been a blessing to both of us. You are correct my dear sister, THIS IS THE GOSPEL!!!
quote:Occasional gatherings where you focus on talking about doing those three things are necessary, but I'm not sure of the timetable on that. Our family talks kingdom of God 24/7, breakfast-lunch-dinner and house to house, as schedules and desires permit.
I really think my eyes were opened to a greater degree last Sunday. I know this may sound like heresy (even here) but my wife went to “home church” and I stayed home with my daughter and The Lord. I really felt that a light came on for me. I now believe (for the record I have nothing Biblically to back this up except for the life Jesus lived ) that any time we get together “for church” that it is probably going to get corrupted.
Even in the home church there is this idea that we must do “God stuff” when we get together. What ever happened to the “breaking bread from house to house, and fellowshipping with each other”? Any ideas on this Laurie Ann?
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
quote:Originally posted by Matthew: [QUOTE]Laurie Ann said this, quite some time ago: [qb]
Even in the home church there is this idea that we must do “God stuff” when we get together. What ever happened to the “breaking bread from house to house, and fellowshipping with each other”? Any ideas on this Laurie Ann?
Matthew
well, Matthew, it sounds like you have been very busy! But you haven't been a busy-body, which is a great thing!
There is definitely a disconnect, and we are trying to find it... just like the hunt you had for the leaks in the pool, there is a leak in our understanding of how to live. The pool of Living water seems to be empty!
One key, is understanding that it isn't just IC that is an ungodly institution - it is institutional school, institutional work, institutional food, institutional hotels, institutional government, institutional medical care... The world has undermined every function the family and local community are supposed to do. Even law enforcement, you have to wonder about. I bet you could name a few ways that a godly man with a whip and personal knowledge of a miscreant and his family could have accomplished way more in the life of a juvenile delinquent than an officer of the law with Miranda rights and an anonymous judge.
God's plan for us was that family and local community serve every one of these functions from cradle to grave. Would it be perfect? No. Would it be better? Oh, yeah! Family is being robbed of every opportunity to care for itself, and to pass on a godly heritage and unique identity to its own children. We aren't allowed to protect ourselves or to hold people accountable, because we are supposed to "let the officials handle it". As if they could!
For example, I think of times when the boys in the 'hood break in and steal their neighbor's stereo, brag about it, sell it. Everyone in the community knows who, what, when where, how and why. But the legal system's hands are tied, justice, if it ever happens, is so long in coming that the young people have long since forgotten any responsibility. I know a few men who would have spent a lot less time in jail if they had been beaten by the neighbors the first time they got high and wrecked someone's house, instead of getting away with it.
So, back to the perfect day!...
One evening, we invited 5 families over to our home for Acts 2:42 fellowship. Nothing planned, just pot luck and visiting. Just as everyone was arriving, we got a call from our neighbor that they had baled hay, and it was supposed to rain. They needed help immediately to get the hay in, or it would be ruined. So, I announced, "Anybody who is willing to move hay, let's go!" So, most of the men and a couple of women and young people headed out, and got on the back of the trailer.
So the evening ended up looking like this:
One group loving their neighbor by getting their hay in, Most of the women sitting around the kitchen table talking about child rearing, needs and food preparation. Did God's ways come up? You bet!
Children playing with other children, under their parent's watchful eyes, and parents demonstrating the love of God under their children's watchful eyes!
The remaining folks, mixing and mingling with everyone else, learning about their concerns and sharing the Word about them.
How powerful is this: the neighbor whose field had been baled asked us, "Why are YOU helping?" He was helping because it was his hay, his brother was helping because he was family, the other neighbor was helping because he would get a share of the hay. But what were we getting out of it? "We want to be good neighbors! We want to be a real community where people help each other, instead of strangers."
There was no "message", though the Word was shared. There was very little spiritual language, though we prayed for one another. We ate together. And the fellowship was very sweet!
I felt that that night we modeled a vision of what the "Household of Faith" is supposed to be!
quote: Laurie Ann said: There is definitely a disconnect, and we are trying to find it... just like the hunt you had for the leaks in the pool, there is a leak in our understanding of how to live. The pool of Living water seems to be empty!
Here I agree 100%!!! So what if we read The Bible? So what if we “live a holy life?” So stinking what!?! What good is any of that self-righteous dung if we are not out there doing things like helping get in the hay!
quote:One key, is understanding that it isn't just IC that is an ungodly institution - it is institutional school, institutional work, institutional food, institutional hotels, institutional government, institutional medical care.
I guess you lost me at medical care. I can see the school thing, (I was a visitor in the schools for over four years) and it is broken. We will home school. Work is “pay as little as possible o your employees, and work them as hard as you can.” Food ...MSG. Need I say more? Hotels are quite pricy, and then they try and make you feel like you are destroying the environment if you want them to wash your sheets every night ...not to even get me started on how often they wash the blankets! Yuck!!! As far as the government goes, I think a country song says it best, “All of the oil is in Texas, but the dipsticks are in DC!” As far as medical care goes, since there is so much gluttony and other bad habits, isn't it necessary? I mean they can replace almost anything but your head nowadays!
quote:...have accomplished way more in the life of a juvenile delinquent than an officer of the law with Miranda rights and an anonymous judge.
All our “criminal justice” system is, is a place where the government is trying to spank adults that didn't get the love and discipline they needed when they were a child. It doesn't work. And as far as all of the children being molested ...those folks should be publicly shot.
quote: We aren't allowed to protect ourselves or to hold people accountable, because we are supposed to "let the officials handle it". As if they could!
Here is where I can help! The laws are written so you can protect yourself (not so much your property though, sorry). THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!! If you feel that your life, or the life of someone you are bound to protect (ie. Your husband and children) is in danger then you may use any force necessary to remove that danger. You may ONLY use such force as is necessary to stop the threat. There is a huge difference between shooting someone in the front of their torso than shooting someone in the back. There is also a huge difference between shooting someone one or three times, than there is unloading two clips into their body.
Here is a case I am personally acquainted with. This really happened. Two men came in to arm rob a small country store in Arkansas. They addressed the nice lady at the counter with their [weapon of choice], and requested funds. However, they were unaware of the fact that they neglected to address the owner in the back (the one with the shotgun). He addressed them directly (by shooting one of them). For some reason, the other fellow then panicked, and ran out of the store.
The interesting thing here is the fact that the owner's shotgun was a single shot shotgun. The fellow that stayed behind (the one with shotgun pellets in him) was found dead when the police arrived ...from blunt force trauma (blows he suffered) to his head from the empty shotgun barrel.
Here is the owners story. (He is a free man by the way.) “After the other feller ran out, this here feller kept trying to get to his gun and shoot us. I only had one shot, so I started hitting him with the shotgun barrel until he stopped trying to get at his gun an' kill us.” Since dead men tell no tails, and the other gentleman swiftly departed, there was no other conflicting story.
I have other such stories, if you are interested.
quote:So, back to the perfect day!... snip How powerful is this: the neighbor whose field had been baled asked us, "Why are YOU helping?" snip There was no "message", though the Word was shared. There was very little spiritual language, though we prayed for one another. We ate together. And the fellowship was very sweet!
I felt that that night we modeled a vision of what the "Household of Faith" is supposed to be!
So then my question is this... how do I breach this with our home church? We have already made good friends (I feel) and I think this is so “different” that they would think us nuts or something. I don't want to loose their fellowship, but I don't want to go to the IC in someone's home either!
Any suggestions?
Thanks, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
posted
The only way to bring up the topic is to model it, in my experience. Even then, some will not feel they have "had church". That's okay.
We have had IC pastors in our home, home churchers, all kinds of people, and all we do is try to keep the mental "checklist" of Acts 2:42 in mind, and at the end, we try to say, "Wasn't that great! And we fulfilled all God's requirements for a church meeting!"
Often, people say, "Oh, yeah, I agree!" Other times, people say, "But..."
The response gives us an idea of who is ready to jump to the new way.
Something to chew on: Jesus went to the synagogues, not to join but to recruit from them. He went to say, "This ain't it!" And was chased out when he challenged status quo.
I see the institutionalized meetings as the same. We look at EVERY gathering of people as an opportunity to say, "The Kingdom of God is Within You!"
So, as you continue to meet with people who pull out folding chairs, you can see them as a pool of people to call to the higher life, and as time goes on, some will get it, some won't, and at some point it will be time for somebody to move on!
I think.
BTW - I found out that someone in our group is finding fault with us for using the word "community of faith" instead of "church". They don't count us as part of their "church" but we include them in our definition of "community of faith" which becomes more and more hilarious, as they try to define "unity", by EXCLUDING us but we define Kingdom of God by including them
quote:Laurie Ann said: The only way to bring up the topic is to model it, in my experience.
I am beginning to formulate a plan.
quote:Something to chew on: Jesus went to the synagogues, not to join but to recruit from them. He went to say, "This ain't it!" And was chased out when he challenged status quo.
It is quite fascinating that you would mention this. I just talked to my wife about this in the form of a question. "Did you ever notice that every time Jesus went to church someone tried to kill Him?" I'm actually wondering if the only reason Jesus ever went to church was so that we would expect to be treated the same way when we went!
quote:So, as you continue to meet with people who pull out folding chairs, you can see them as a pool of people to call to the higher life, and as time goes on, some will get it, some won't, and at some point it will be time for somebody to move on!
So here is the idea, When we purchased this house it had an in-ground pool that was a sewer of three years of neglect. It is now fully refurbished, and full of clear, slowly warming, and quite inviting water. Everyone in our home fellowship has children. Need I say more?
quote:they try to define "unity", by EXCLUDING us but we define Kingdom of God by including them
Well, for whatever it's worth ...I think of you as part of the Kingdom community (read my), and a very important part you are playing too!!! Thanks for everything, you heretic!
Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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and it is an evangelism tool for the future as well. Storytelling the basics is going to be important in our media saturated age.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
My little one is watching “Snoopy Come Home,” so I have some time for RCC.
