After long contemplation, Link Hudson set his hands to the keyboard:

>Was Paul an elder?

Sure was, he employees the same word family in "aged." Phlm. 9 Yet for love’s sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the AGED, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.

The apostle John mentioned his seniority in two of his letters (2 John 1, 3 John 1) as well as did the apostle Peter (see below).

>One could debate the issue, but his traveling apostolic ministry differed
>from that of the local church elders he appointed.
>Paul, an apostle, pastored as well. He asked the Corinthians who 'pastors'
>a flock and does not eat of the milk of the flock. Jesus also told Peter to
>'pastor' his sheep. (Why did they translate the word for tending sheep as
>'feed' in the KJV?)
>
>My point is that 'pastoring' may be a ministry done by more than local
>church elders. Ephesians 4:11 lets us know that 'pastors' are among the
>gifts given to men. Being an overseer in the church came with a long list
>of requirements. But being a 'pastor' seems to be a matter of being gifted.

Your point is well received, bro. Just as elders are specifically called upon to pray for the sick - others should also pray for the sick. Just because one particular group is enjoined to perform a task does not mean that others are excluded.

Pastoring is simply the non-technical outworking of that ancient rhetorical question: Am I my brother's keeper? Yes - a thousand times yes! As one grows older, he should become wiser, more experienced, and have more resources for ministry than younger ones. Therefore it is especially and naturally incumbent upon the elders to be shepherds. What else would you expect in a patriarchal environment?

>I think there may be some pastors who are not elders. They are gifted to
>sheep-tend, but are not older men. Some novices seem to be gifted as
>pastors, though overseers are not to be novices.

Timothy would have been such a pastor, though not so called. We are reminded of the great weight attached to age in the ancient world by Paul's charge to him to let none despise his youth. Some think he was almost 40 at that point on the time-line.

The "novice" thing has been perceived and translated as a "recent convert" but this isn't accurate, according to some. Literally, it means "not a young plant." A simple metaphor to mean "not immature." Deissmann of Germany, who translated a large number of the earliest Greek papyri, confirms it.

Jesus, btw, is a pastor (Good Shepherd) but not an elder. He died young. A no-brainer, huh?

>If I were to draw a Venn diagram of 'pastor' I might draw a circle with
>'elder' in the pastor circle. I might also draw a circle with 'apostle' on
>it within that circle. Another circle 'teacher' would be partly in and
>partly out of the 'pastor' circle. I'm not sure my diagram would be right.
>Maybe 'elder' should be partly out of the circle. Some elders of the church
>don't seem to pastor (disobedient ones perhaps?)

Some elders don't seem to pastor, indeed. Most are unaware of their assigned role which is a huge tragedy. But praise God that many fulfill a shepherding role out of sheer instinct - or rather the Holy Spirit prompting them.

>I'm not sure my view is the correct one here, but it seems feasible in light
>of scripture.

Well, if the word elder has been so transformed that it now applies to younger ones, when did that change occur? In other words, when we come to New Testament elders - why should we differentiate them from Old Testament elders?

Here is just one example from each Testament where they are contrasted with younger ones:

1 Kgs. 12:8 But he (Rehoboam) forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:

1 Tim. 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

This next one really nails it down. Oh well, it should, methinks:

1 Pet. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder...
1 Pet. 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight ...
1 Pet. 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.

The most backward cultures in the world know their elders. The Christian church apparently does not.

David Anderson

It is interesting that the word "elder" (Strong's #4245) not only includes regenerate and unregenerate (elders of Israel as well as elders of the church) but it also includes male and female! (I Tim.5:1,2)
But elders of the church (regenerate) who are overseers (Strong's # 1985) must be males. But not all believers who are older males are qualified to be overseers. They must also be marked by certain character qualities, domestic relationships, and be reputable men in their own communities. See the use of EPISKOPE (Strongs' #1985) below:
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers <1985>, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops <1985> and deacons:
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop <1985> then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1:5-7 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop <1985> must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop <1985> of your souls.

With these observations in view, it seems evident that all "older ones" are elders (regardless of gender or spiritual condition). So no one can be appointed "to be an elder", but rather elders who are appointed are appointed "to be overseers". Overseers of the flock of God must therefore be older, believing, males whose domestic relationships, character and reputation are in keeping with
scriptural qualifications.

One of the responsibilities of these overseers is "pastoring/shepherding". The noun form "pastors" (Strong's #4166) is found in Eph.4:11. The verb form of the word (Strongs' # 4165) is used as follows in scripture:

Luke 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle <4165>, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
John 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed <4165> my sheep.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed <4165> the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1 Corinthians 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth <4165> a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding <4165> themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule <4165> them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed <4165> them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule <4165> all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule <4165> them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

(As has been noted, "feed" is not a good rendering of this word. It has nothing to do with preparing or serving food for those who cannot or will not prepare their own. That is the work of "bakers" or "chefs". True shepherds do not produce grass for sheep or milk for lambs! But they do tend, (lead, guide and protect) sheep. The health and maturity of sheep is demonstrated by their eating
habits. (Newborn lambs are dependent on their mothers for all of their food. Young lambs begin to nibble tender shoots of grass while still depending on theuir mothers' milk. But mature sheep feed themselves.) Sadly many "pastors" are hired specificly to fulfill the job description of "bakers" and "chefs"! (Preparing and serving food for those who are unable or unwilling to do it
themselves!) The eating habits of such "sheep" demonstrate their unhealthy and immature condition.

I'll conclude this with a couple of questions:
-Is it possible, then, that a wrong and unscriptural understanding of "elders" (i.e. elders may be young men who are "properly trained" as clergy to "shepherd" the laity under their care including men who are old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers) is very detrimental to pastors and people?
-Is it possible that churches that function with a scriptural understanding of "elders" (i.e. elders of churches are the senior males who are scripturally qualified in character, domestic relationships and who have a good reputation in their community according to I Tim.3 and Titus 1, and that it is such men who are to be responsible for shepherding the flock), will reap tremendous benefits for both shepherds and sheep?