posted
It must be admitted at the outset that the use of the word presbuteros or elder to denote the holder of an office is foreign to normal Greek usage. Outside Jewish and Christian literature, the word presbutero has only one possible meaning: older men.
It is true that presbuteroi appear on many Greek inscriptions of the Hellenistic period; but on closer examination it turns out that all these inscriptions refer to the various associations of older men which grew up as a kind of complement to the athletic associations of the young, and it is not until the middle of the second century A.D. that there is any evidence for presbutero as a title for a member of the newly created gerousia of Hellenistic cities - and even then the epigraphic evidence amounts to no more than one certain and two possible instances. It therefore seems necessary to assume that in the Greek-speaking world the word presbutero meant, not an official of any kind, but simply an older man. . .
The point I am making is simply that one of the principles which seems to have played its part in the development of church order was the principle of seniority. Elders were so called because they were originally the older and senior members of the congregation, and the respect to which they were entitled did not differ essentially from that shown to any older man.... We have not a scrap of evidence from the early period that the Christian elders were ever organized into anything formal or official, or that they were ever sitting in committee in such a way that would need a chairman. The word used here (Tit. 1:5-7) for appoint kaqisthmi, is the same as that used by Clement when he talks of appointing first-fruits.
But, as we saw, Clement does not mean that certain people were appointed first-fruits: this would make no sense, since either you were a first convert or you were not. What he means is that at that time apostles appointed their first converts...
Similarly, in Acts 14:23, Paul an Barnabas chose elders in each church. The verb here is ceirotoneivn, which is often translated appoint. But this meaning is unattested; there is no other instance in the N.T. or contemporary literature of the word losing its proper meaning of election or selection, and the sense is at least as good if we keep the meaning choose and assume that what the apostles are doing is choosing from among the existing elders of the churches those who are to bear special responsibility - just as, in Acts 20 Paul calls together the elders of Miletus, whom the Holy Spirit has made (eqeto) episkopoi.
In all these cases there need be no question to appointing people to _be_ elders: elders exist already.
A. E. Harvey, Elders in The Journal of Theological Studies XXV:2 Oxford University, (October 1974) pp. 319, 320, 326, 329, 330, 331.
Michael Paine
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Hi there, it was great to read the comments about elders, but I have a question. Whenever the bible talks about elders being ordained it always mentions that the apostles laid hands on them and ordained them.
I am interested in going back to the 'Home Church' model but being part of a group at the moment that is apostolic/prophetic.
Who would then ordain the elders in my 'Home Church' or would it be illegitimate authority gained.
In speaking of elders as "senior" members of the body, it should be remembered that an "elder" could also be considered as someone who is mature, or of full age, in the sense of their Christian walk.
quote: Hebrews 5: 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Although the chronological age of a person generally earns respect in society--at least in years past children were taught to respect someone older--that idea must not limit our understanding of the usage of the word elder as it relates to the early church.
At time the word elder appears to refer to age. At other times it is used to refer to an office or function within the church. We can't deny either. It wouldn't make sense to appoint as elder someone who is a "babe" in Christ simply because of his/her chronological age. It would make more sense to appoint as elder someone who could perform the duties required even if he was not an elder in age.
I think you have pretty well hit the nail on the head with regard to the Biblical usage of the term presbuteros.
a major problem with AE Harvey's argument is that it is based on an incorrect and methodologically flawed assumption. This can be seen in the very first paragraph:
quote:It must be admitted at the outset that the use of the word presbuteros or elder to denote the holder of an office is foreign to normal Greek usage. Outside Jewish and Christian literature, the word presbutero has only one possible meaning: older men.
(Italics mine.)
The issue is what the term presbuteros means inside Jewish and Christian literature, namely the Old Testament (here the LXX is in mind) and New Testament Scriptures. As you have correctly observed, Jeff, there is a specialized usage of these terms in the Bible, and this is why the entire citation of AE Harvey's article is beside the point.
quote:Keith T said: ...there is a specialized usage of these terms in the Bible, and this is why the entire citation of AE Harvey's article is beside the point.
Hey Keith T,
The fact that there is a "specialized usage" does not however go to show rank or position in The Body of Christ. It only can be proved to show respect, not rank. The fact is, an "Elder" in the church is often used to donate rank (I have never seen it to do anything but) and is even used to speak of very young men. This was NEVER done! It was only meant as a way to give honor to older and wise saints, and that's all. Do you agree?
posted
Well, Matthew, I think I agree with some of what you are saying, but I don't know that I agree with all of it. I really can't be certain because I am not sure what you mean by some of the terms you are using. I will try, as I typically do, to respond as thoroughly as possible, either with my own understanding of Scripture or with questions for further clarification.
quote:The fact that there is a "specialized usage" does not however go to show rank or position in The Body of Christ. It only can be proved to show respect, not rank.
I am not sure what you mean when you use say "rank." This is a loaded word that brings military associations to mind, which would definitely not be the right way to view the role of elders in the New Testament churches. As for the term "position," you seem to view it as negatively as you view the term "rank," but I do not think these terms are synonymous. For example, to say that one has a position of authority is not the same thing as saying someone has a higher rank, for someone may hold a position of authority in which he exercises that authority with love, humility, and self-sacrifice, notions that do not necessarily come to mind when one thinks of higher rank as in a military context, with its notions of unquestioning obedience, etc.
At any rate, the terms we use to describe the role of elders according to the Bible must be qualified appropriately by what the Bible itself teaches. I think this is why most Reformed Baptists, such as myself, prefer to use the term office in a carefully qualified way.
quote:The fact is, an "Elder" in the church is often used to donate rank (I have never seen it to do anything but) and is even used to speak of very young men. This was NEVER done!
I have already noted my misgivings about the use of the term "rank," and I think it may be a bit of a straw man as you are employing it here. Although I do not doubt that there have been abusive elders who view themselves this way, I do not think this term accurately conveys my own understanding or that of others with whom I am associated.
As for the Biblical usage of the term presbúteros (elder), I agree that it can refer to older men and retain the connotation of more advanced age. However, the word also had a more specialized usage to refer to leaders, both in the LXX and in the New Testament, and with this usage connotations of more advanced age are not necessarily dominant. Of course, the reason this word came to denote such leaders in the first place would have been precisely because they were typically older men, but over time the usage of the word with reference to leaders seems to have lost the emphasis upon age as a primary connotation. This is a commonly accepted idea among New Testament Greek scholars, as you are no doubt aware.
As for whether or not very young men could ever be referred to as elders, I really am not certain. I know of no clear example in Scripture where this is the case, unless we refer to Timothy (1 Tim. 4:12), but we do not know how old he was. He could have been in his 30's, given that in the ancient world a man could be regarded as a youth before the age of 40. So I don't think he would be a good example.
I know that when Paul talks about the qualifications for elders, he never expressly mentions age. He focuses instead upon character and experience. He does warn against appointing a novice as an elder (1 Tim. 3:6), but this appears to refer to one lacking in Christian maturity rather than age.
quote:It was only meant as a way to give honor to older and wise saints, and that's all. Do you agree?
No, I guess I don't. I essentially agree with what Jeff wrote in an earlier post, and I have indicated why as best as I can with limited time.
posted
Well, hey ...thanks for taking the time to read my dribble. I'm partial to The Greek Interlinear. The evidence there supports freedom from the institutionalized church, and freedom in Christ. I submit that the "best evidence" points to the fact that they are one in the same.
posted
An enlightening idea here is to study the Old Testament regarding Elders. Abraham. Job and Boaz were elders. The Hittite men Abram bought his land from and the three Friends of Job were Elders. Then, realize that Jesus was sending the disciples to "Elders" when he said, Go to a village... stay with a man.
The men who were "Elders" in the OT sense (Chieftains of their family) were to become the "elders" in the Household of Faith.
They were to be "Men of Shalom" - whole in body, soul, spirit and family.
What Paul was indicating when he told them to "ordain" elders, was to figure out which ones had ADDED to their pre-existent ELDERNESS the comprehension of the Good News enough to be trusted with Spiritual matters of the Kingdom, just like everyone ALREADY trusted them with practical matters.
Jesus was abolishing the priesthood. There is simply no place for a professional clergy in the model he gave us.
Just in my Not So Humble But I Hope Helpful Opinion.
Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
posted
Makes good sense, LA, as elders are not 'introduced' when we enter the NT era. Everyone knew who they already were for several millennia.
In fact, elders were never 'introduced' in the OT either - the first mention of them is of the "elders of Egypt."
Genesis 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt
Sadly, elders have lost their 'VIP' status in the very cultures which should have known better. And, their honorable position has been retained by the cultures which have had little influence of Judaism or of Christianity. Strange, huh?
posted
Wonderful, Biblical information Laurie Ann and D Anderson!
The worst example I have personally seen of this is in the Mormon religion. The two fellows that you always see walking around in white shirts, tie, and dark slacks, always wear a black name tags with the named distinction as "elder" on it. The funny thing is, they are NEVER anything like the Biblical example of an elder! The fact is, they are usually just college age boys!!!
Having said that, the IC has a very similar problem. Please let me know if y`all think I have it right or not.
Just as "the church" now denotes a building somewhere that The Body of Christ comes together in, to [do whatever] in, the word "elder" denotes ANYONE who holds any position of rank or authority within the church! This can include the pastor (although he is usually too holy ), and always includes any deacons, trustees, etc.
Age, respect, trust, and etc, is sacrificed for those who have the appearance of good works and proper family "order." Since the church is so impersonal, no one really knows what's going on behind closed doors, so as long as the "elder material" is dragging his whole family into the proper building (at least three times a week), he is eligible. How truly sad!!!
Having said that, I am 41. I have no delusions, of any kind, that would allow me to think, for even a moment, that I am an "elder." Yet, I am "the husband of one wife" my daughter is very well behaved, and I have studied The Scriptures since I was a child, and can often answer questions that are put to me. I guess that may qualify me to serve tables, (or maybe even supervise those who do ...but I doubt it).
posted
You are right about that, Matthew and D, and add this: when the Church embraced "academic idolatry" in the place of "godly wisdom", suddenly "youths" began lording over "elders". This was, I believe, part of the Reformation and Enlightenment, when men stopped "trusting in the Priests" and began instead, "trusting in their own understanding" when they were supposed to be "Trusting in the Lord!"
We forgot that the apostles were "not learned me" but THEY HAD BEEN WITH JESUS!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
posted
Laurie Ann, are you being so bold as to imply (or plainly say) that an intellectualized Christianity has misplaced a practical one!?!
Academic idolatry (I really like that expression) seems to be one main cancer that has attacked The Church. Head knowledge has replaced heart knowledge, how insightful!!! My question then becomes... How do I rid this idol in my life? Maybe I should just quit "learning" and start only doing? Any suggestions there Laurie Ann???
posted
I humbly acknowledge the kudos, Matthew. To be delivered from academic idolatry is, I believe, the most significant achievement of my adult life, bar none!
Not that I don't struggle with back-to-school panic every year about this time...
The Scriptures have so much guidance on this. Learning the difference between knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Realizing the importance of working with one's hands in order to be a complete person, and that manual labor is not beneath our dignity, but what our bodies were created for.
One good study topic is "Greek World View vs. Hebrew World View". There are several books and lots of websites on the topic. Hebraic peoples are more holistic and authority centered. The Greek mindset was more categorical and man centered. Seeing how American Christianity has been highly influenced by the Greek mindset is very enlightening. That's a tidbit to get you thinking.
Blessings, LA
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
posted
Well, I'm going to head out into the community today, and put my money where my knowledge is (or something like that). I am enjoying being able to bless others "randomly" in The Name of Christ (even though I don't tell them what I'm doing).
I'm not totally convinced about the "better to give than receive" thing yet, but it is kinda fun just going out and being nice to people! Also, it helps me get my mind off of all of the "me stuff" and my child really loves the time we spend doing things together!!!
quote:Originally posted by Matthew: I'm not totally convinced about the "better to give than receive" thing yet, but it is kinda fun just going out and being nice to people! Also, it helps me get my mind off of all of the "me stuff" and my child really loves the time we spend doing things together!!!
Matthew, your courage and honesty are an inspiration to us all.
We expect a report soon~ La
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
I'm not totally convinced about the "better to give than receive" thing yet, but it is kinda fun just going out and being nice to people!
There you go! You just convinced yourself.
As I get older I tend to like giving gifts rather than getting them. I remember when I was younger the older folks would always say, "I don't need anything." But you'd get them something anyway and they would make over it and then stick it in a drawer somewhere just to be nice.
Huh? I think I just saw something move from my garage into the kitchen. I better get back on topic.
Email this page to someone.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm partial to The Greek Interlinear. The evidence there supports freedom from the institutionalized church, and freedom in Christ. I submit that the "best evidence" points to the fact that they are one in the same.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The fact is, they are usually just college age boys!!!![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
), and always includes any deacons, trustees, etc.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I have no delusions, of any kind, that would allow me to think, for even a moment, that I am an "elder." Yet, I am "the husband of one wife" my daughter is very well behaved, and I have studied The Scriptures since I was a child, and can often answer questions that are put to me. I guess that may qualify me to serve tables, (or maybe even supervise those who do ...but I doubt it). 
