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Our spiritual community is in the throes of wrestling out eldership, and I decided to write to a church planting coach for his thoughts (as I've mentioned elsewhere, he was part of a team that started a very successful house church movement in a community overseas.)
Here's our discussion:
Q: ...The discussion was on "eldership" and we are having trouble putting together a working model for our community that does not include controlling each other and dictating. ...
My husband and I want to be minimalist in eldership - with believers, we feel we mainly need to edify one another. As we grow, we anticipate more active teaching as we reach the disobedient. Others picture more bossiness, leadership meetings,structure and doctrinal correction. We also feel that people should be released to lead in their homes without meeting any particular spiritual level, beyond Paul's requirements, whereas others are holding back until the men are "ready". -How did your team envision elders behaving as the church matured? Any word pictures to help us?
A: Read the Appendix [in Sheep in my bathtub] about the two main obstacles as a group and evaluate what "Trusting the H.S. in the life of the Believer" is going to play out like in your gathering. All of this perceived need for elders as spiritual cops or needing folks to manage our spirituality is sub-Kingdom religious nonsense, in my opinion.
Elders are the natural "older siblings" that will emerge in every human gathering - the go-to guys and gals....
Q: So... "appointing elders" would mean choosing among the men of peace, the ones who "get it" spiritually, to carry on the work?
A: I think recognizing is a better term than choosing. The ecclesia has already done the choosing, with hearts and minds guided by the Holy Spirit, so the apostolic team need merely see who the natural elders already are. ... Thought this was worth sharing here!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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This is very very good! We are going to a home church that has existed for many years, and we are the newcomers. There is too much organization in the morning meeting for us. My wife and I both felt like we were just sitting "in church" in someones home. That's NOT what we left the IC for! I guess I said that to ask this. How do we, as the "newcomers," say that to them without offending them?
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Amen, the older ones would be the natural leaders. That's 'leader' as in one who goes before.
Yet, younger ones can (and should) also aspire to oversight which is why the scriptures state: A faithful saying this is: if ANYONE desires to be an overseer he desires a good work - not a good office.
All elders should be overseers but not all overseers are elders.... yet.
Note the order of elder -> overseer, aka bishop:
Titus 1:5-7 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a BISHOP must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre
I think you are completely on the right track of "renewing your mind with the washing of the Word" and so on.
You (and we) can do what Jesus did, which is to "launch an insider movement" (new phrase for an old idea).
Jesus: 1. Learned everything he could about the group he was with 2. Asked a lot of questions and established a reputation 3. Established a base of operation outside of the group 4. Targeted people who were open to the New Thing God was doing 5. Tossed out some outrageous, divisive truth 6. Got thrown out or threatened with death 7. Moved on, and discipled the ones who left the synagogue or community with him, to do the same thing.
I would abandon any hope of changing the group you have joined. But I would not rule out the possibilities that you can either use the group for help in launching a group more like what you believe in, or that you will find a few who want to do things differently, and of course you can ask questions that may infuse fresh ideas which, long term, may result in openness.
IC thinking has always held up Jesus going to the Temple, and going to the synagogues as support for the IC way. However, when you look closely, you find that Jesus' attitude was not to "join" these things but to "recruit out of them". He never said, "My synagogue" or "Our synagogue" but he said, "Your Synagogue". It was in homes and in public forums that he really proclaimed the Kingdom of God freely -- and he never told his disciples to "go to a synagogue" he said to "go to a village and stay with a man of peace". He presumed they would continue, like good Jewish boys, to attend synagogue -- but Jesus knew that eventually, they would be thrown out, completely.
My point being, that established structures can almost never be changed by newcomers - however, they can be "fishing grounds".
My guess is that you will not last long where you are, but there is much you can learn, relationships you can make, and opportunities to clarify your thinking while you figure out what the Spirit wants you to do next.
Making an effort to get to know the other families one on one might be a good start toward making more of a Kingdom of God Household of Faith. Meeting at a certain place at a certain time every week (instead of House to House and Day by Day as the Lord Leads) is naturally a dead end. It gets stale really fast.
Blessings! Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
Just wanted to offer some hope here. I have successfully changed the structure in two churches of the three churches that I have attended. The one that failed was a Spanish speaking church. And surely it must be harder in an IC than in a home setting.
I think you can do it if you are patient. The larger the group the longer it will take because you will have more people to convince. But as scripture says, a little rudder can turn a huge ship. I haven't been at any church for too long because I have moved away. But even in a very short time I was able to make friends and present ideas, little ones at first, that were embraced. This is a quality of a leader.
The way I did it was to introduce a better idea. What that translates to is an interactive study of the Bible after the sermon and before lunch. Another thing was to transform the weekday meeting into a family affair rather than simply having someone stand up front and speak. We started by having a different family lead out in worship each time. This was readily accepted and help people get involved. Another idea was to put teachers on a rotation so that they only got to speak once a month. This helped insure that one person wasn't presenting jus their views and also helps keep the superior attitude at bay. These are some of the ideas.
Now I realize that your situation is a little different but if the body likes the ideas and the "owners" oppose it then do you really want to be meeting in their home? But I take a little different approach from Laurie's. I don't think you should ever try to upset the apple cart because you will end up with some bruised apples. It's easy to offend someone, it can be done in a moment. It is sometime impossible to win them back after that. And, I don't feel we can exclude anyone. It is always best when they exclude themselves by their own choice.
Also, Laurie, with regard to wrestling out eldersship, I think your friend has good advice. I think he is saying that God picks those leaders. People who are able to teach. People will gravitate toward those who give them what they are in need of. Sometimes, sadly, wolves come in who are very charismatic and they easily lead some of the tender sheep astray. This is a good time to have solid eldership in place.
What we did once was to write out which gifts we felt each other had. Then we read them aloud. It may be best to have a secret ballot but you are not really choosing at this time merely trying to get people to realize their gifts--as seen manifested in them by others around them. I think it is a healthy exercise. Tell me what happens if you try it.
But I have a question. There are many gifts of the spirit. In such a small group is it difficult to find them all manifested in an organic way? Or, do some people have to stand up and take roles they were not necessarily equiped for by God? BTW, this is not a problem just for house churches. I am working on a problem at my church because they seem to think they need so many of this and so many of that and the truth is they don't have the gifts in that quantity, in my opinion. But I hope I have the gift of discernment in this matter. This is one that will no doubt take a longer time to change.
Sorry if I intruded here but I thought I'd give another viewpoint for what it's worth.
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Wow, thanks D Anderson, Laurie Ann, and jqlogan for all of the input! (Just for the record, you are welcome anywhere I'm posting jqlogan.) I guess my problem is two fold. I'm kinda to the place where I just want to "let the ignorant be ignorant. The truth is, I'M TIRED!!! I'm to the place where I just want to be left alone.
I feel safe here, but I already know I'm being judged by those in the home group because I opened up to them, so you are correct Laurie Ann I feel my time is limited. They have already tried to "straiten me out." When I confronted their opinions with my Greek studies, they fell mostly silent. I really hate having to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just want to be left alone, so I can heal up from all I've been through... I would make a horrid leader right now (the second problem) because I am questioning everything, and I do mean everything...
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: Making an effort to get to know the other families one on one might be a good start toward making more of a Kingdom of God Household of Faith. Meeting at a certain place at a certain time every week (instead of House to House and Day by Day as the Lord Leads) is naturally a dead end. It gets stale really fast.
This I have never heard, and certainly have never thought of for myself. This is something totally fresh to me. You must be a greater heretic than I! Can you go into a bit of detail on how this would work?
I hate to be so ignorant here, but I refuse to stay that way. How does this work? Can you give me an example of a typical week or month of this? Do y`all just call everyone up and say, "we are meeting at Jo's house tonight?"
Matthew, I just wanted to make sure I was being clear. I am not trying to tell you how you should handle your situation. I am only sharing my experience. In the end you must answer to God for yourself. So consider what I have written and test it according to scripture as to whether it is of God.
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Glad to see folks enjoying themselves.... It's snowing here in TN.
OK, here's that nifty elder -> overseer sequence again. It can't be a coincidence.
Acts 20:17 From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church.
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
I am a bit slow, but let me know if I am understanding you correctly- Are you saying that the words elder and overseer are not synonymous- but are generaly seen syquentialy in scripture, implying that scripture is saying that elders are often then appointed to, or themselves step up to the position of overseer?
I am reading "Church Planting Movements" by David Garrison. One movement is amoung the gypsies in spain who meet mainly in homes and traveling tents. Most of the pastors (leaders) are apparently illiterate lay pastors who learn orally through mentorship.
The Kingdom of God will certainly continue to spread, despite mans attempts to limit it!
... Yeah, well. What about an American man who'd rather watch football than read the Bible... but who does love his family, and is willing to open up his home so OTHERS can hear the gospel?
So many men here would definitely fall into the "Why Men Hate Going To Church" category (MUST read, people, Must read). They don't object to their wives going to "church", and don't mind real-life discussions, or even being challenged to be better men. But they see reading as "sissy stuff" and going to church as boring.
Anyway, we feel like, Hey, if men here are hunters and football fans, then let's plant a church in a hunter/football fans' home around the Superbowl. Others feel like, No, if he doesn't love to read the word, he isn't "qualified" to have a church in his home. We feel like "Okies" will never be reached unless we accept their distinctives - high-school-drop-out-ism being one of them!
Further thoughts?
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Laurie Ann, that's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard!!! I mean that's like saying a bunch of unlearned fishermen could... Oh, wait. Oops! Never mind...
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Hey, wait a minute. Isn't sports just another past-time? Remember, those fishermen left their nets (employment) immediately to follow Jesus. I imagine there was nothing they would rather be doing than sitting at his feet listening to him speak. And scripture does speak of those who have a form of godliness but love pleasure more than they love God. Reach them where they're at, Yes, but don't leave them there. If they don't place more interest in their faith than they do sports. . . well, then I think there is a problem with the relationship. Perhaps it has been built on less than solid ground.
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Hey jqlogan, The topic here was pretty far back, you must have missed it.
Laurie Ann asked,
quote:"How's this one.... Does an 'elder' have to be literate?"
Since Jesus "ain't here" then I guess sitting at His feet would be kinda hard. We just don't think you have to be able to read to mentor others, that's all.
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: Yes, jq, the problem here is the physical reading of the book.
Since the New Testament hadn't been written yet, we know that the early disciples weren't reading it. Households didn't even all have copies of the O.T. A community shared one, I believe, (perhaps the synagogue was the place where the paper copy was kept?). They gathered for the "public reading", which Paul exhorted Timothy to do.
So who does that reading? Would it be okay for the wife to be the reader? Should we just have a rule of thumb that if a household has nobody to read, that they be encouraged to have at least one literate person come from time to time to read and lead discussion? Or, again, is there any scriptural basis for an elder having qualifications in regards to this particular skill?
Keep the comments coming, y'all'ses . I appreciate it~!
Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
This conversation reminds me of what Glen and I heard from other christians as their greatest reservation about us starting a house church. It continues to be a reservation that I hear often. It goes like this:
That we are acting without formal accountability or training and am much more likely to fall into heresy because of it. I assume this would be most christians reservations about "untrained" overseers- especialy illiterate ones!
Here are some obserations I have made- When Paul warned a certain church against heresy, it was in referece to one or more individuals who were coming in with "fine sounding arguments" and "spectacular ministries" and leading the group into heresy. I have seen the same from experience- it isn't a group of believers who come together to seek the Lord and study His Word together that generally fall into heresy, but rather an authoritative and charismatic personality who comes into a group- generaly as the pastor- who leads a group astray. This seems to happen despite seminary training, a heirarchical chain of accountability, as well as well written out statements of faith.
Paul seemed to encourage churchs to simply come together and teach one another. He seemed to trust the Holy Spirit and the Word to keep these communities on track.
Why do you all think that there is so much fear about autonomous church's and untrained leadership? Do you think there is any basis for this fear?
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Acts 4:13 ¶ When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.
Oh, the obstacles we invent.... It's a shame. God forgive us.
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Great job D Anderson! Here is some more real heresy, strait from the Greek Interlinear Bible. First let me say that I think "the church" [IC] is the heresy. I think someone in the church saying we are in danger of falling into heresy is like saying, "You had better be careful, or you'll end up right where we are!" However, please understand that I still think this is a valid warning!
I revisited my findings on "It's rank in the church," because one of the men I now consider my friend (from home fellowship) ask me a question. The question involved the fact that there are two places where the King James makes it clear that [elders] were “ordained.” The word should have been "recognized".
The first place we see this is in Acts 14:23 “And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.” This is the Greek to English from the Interlinear. “Yet hand-stretching to them according to the out-called (the church), the seniors prayed with fastings. Then they committed them to The Master unto whom they had believed.” Can you say, "The King James wasn't even close here!"
The second is in Titus 1:5 “For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.” Here is the Greek to English from the Interlinear. “Of this grace I left you in Crete, that you should be amending the lack, and be constituting (recognizing) according to each city, seniors, as I to you command.
What does this mean? There were apparently no “recognized seniors” in The Church at Crete. Titus was left there by Paul to correct this lack, as Paul commanded. Remembering this was a letter, and not chapter and verse, Paul then goes on to discuss what qualifications they would need, repeatedly using the word aged! (Titus 2:2,3,) and the word young (Titus 2:4,6). Again, this was clearly a mentors job (that had qualifiers) and needed to be filled, and not rank.
To clarify, what I found was every time the word elder was used it was speaking of age alone. Every time the word elders was used, it was speaking of honor, age, due respect, and someones job as a mentor because of this honor, age, and respect. There is no doubt that there were men and women that were more respected than others in The New Testament Church, but even they could be confronted when they were in error.
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Right on, Jeanne! It has been observed that most heresies originate among seminarians and intellectuals. Did you know Karl Marx was a passionate Christian before he went to seminary?
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
Mathew, thanks for posting those verses in the greek inerlinear! It helps a lot! I think that we as mankind want things systematic because then we can do it on our own! (or at least try to). The Word is actually very principle based as those verses in the greek point out, and when interpreted as such we are forced to rely on God, and one another, which is exactly as it should be. LA- This is probaby why those intellectuals go wrong so easily- it is just so much easier for us average folk to accept the fact that we really can't know it all, or accomplish things on our own. Karl Marx was probably just too smart for his own good, hu?
D- Great verse! I read one time that all Jews went through the same schooling system during Jesus' time, and the best and brightest were picked out and further schooled to become pharises. So the disciples didn't make the cut (they went on to average jobs)- and yet they were the ones that Jesus chose.
quote:Originally posted by JeanneH: Interesting for sure!
Mathew, thanks for posting those verses in the greek inerlinear! It helps a lot! I think that we as mankind want things systematic because then we can do it on our own! (or at least try to). The Word is actually very principle based as those verses in the greek point out, and when interpreted as such we are forced to rely on God, and one another, which is exactly as it should be.
JeanneH, I agree with you (and The Bible) that we are supposed to be in this side by side. It would appear that the King James has a "support the institutionalized church" slant. What a shock! The problem is, this makes for lazy weak Christians. Go to [church], do your time, pay your dime, then wake up and go to lunch. Sad.
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Lemme mention this text about elders being conscious of the prevailing doctrinal winds. Still, this would not require the professionality or advanced training usually attributed to being an overseer in today's world.
Titus 1:9-11 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
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Hey D Anderson, How's work going? Are you still really busy?
Reading your post, I was just wondering ...do you think keeping a church building open, and all that goes with it: the mortgage, the upkeep, the preacher's salary, the utility bills, etc... forces the church to teach for the sake of dishonest gain?
As I sit here drinking my first glass of kefir milk thinking about the fact that Laurie Ann sent me the kefir... I have to wonder if I didn't spend all of those years in church (for the most part) having people tell me, "Go be warmed and filled." Actually, I know I did!
The really sad thing is that I was trained to do the same thing. I'm really wondering what fellowship is really supposed to be like. House to house breaking bread together seems so far from even the home church we go to...
My wife says it this way, "I used to feel [bad] about not being raised in church like you were Matthew, but now I'm glad I wasn't. The church is just like any other business... make money, pay bills. How sad."
I actually think the church is like a dishonest business. They don't ever deliver what they promise, and act offended when you question their shoddy product. If they didn't use "God says so" behind what they do, they would have gone out of business long ago. Ever hear of TG&Y?
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Yes, Matthew, at some point I suddenly realized I was engaged in a "Bait and Switch Operation".
Promising peace,love,joy,happiness&companionship, and delivering busy work and loneliness.
I still have to check myself all the time! I mean, how can I push myself to love my neighbor and want to win her into the Kingdom without seeming to have an agenda? Well, I do have an agenda - to see her in heaven. But I don't want her to feel that my agenda is to get a notch on my Bible.
The struggle to "use tools without mind games" and to "love without pressure" and to "speak the word in season and out of season without proof-texting is a Daily Struggle!
Perhaps the most insidious facet is that the church actually, I think, killed my "natural affection". The mind control games made it so I don't REALLY care about ANYONE, because I FORCED myself to care about EVERYONE. Something about seeing everyone you meet in a way that you try to categorize and manipulate them really broke something. Similar to what Amway does to you: it makes you look at all the people you care about as "potential down-line" wrecking all your relationships.
Deliver me, O Lord!
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote:Laurie Ann said: ...what Amway does to you: it makes you look at all the people you care about as "potential down-line" wrecking all your relationships.
It's funny you would mention Amway. I did a bit of research (long time ago) and found that someone within Amway apparently started the false rumor that Proctor and Gamble were Satan worshipers. Lawsuits, the whole thing... Just an aside thought.
I was pitched by Amway. Two "gentlemen" approached me while I was at work (with a really good friend) and asked us to meet them at a local Wendy's. I know this sounds strange, but we actually thought that they wanted to contract us out on a “hit” or something. When we realized they were Amway (we had to force it out of them) I was turned off by the fact that they tried so hard to keep it from us. My friend was turned off because they were Amway. They didn't even offer to pay for our hamburgers, the whole time trying to convince us how rich we could get! What garbage!!!
I did fall for the same type thing with Citi group years later. Later they didn't pay for my food either, but by this time I was already suspicious of them, and only got a soda.
It's really comical how they all operate. They tell you they are founded on “Christian” principals, and how they have guys that have “retired” to the mission field, and how their work is not a get-rich-quick pyramid scheme. Then they tell you how rich you can get really fast!!! ROTFLMHO!
I left Citi after one meeting where we were informed how to “get new customers.” I was apposed to handing over a list of all of the names of my friends, so when the guy up front asked for a volunteer to role play someone who didn't want to give out that information, I jumped at the chance.
To make a long story short, he ended up swearing, and cussing me. I wasn't being nasty, I was just firmly determined to talk to my friends FIRST, tell them about Citi, and let them make the first contact instead of Citi. Well, I ended up sending a letter to Citi group, they investigated the matter and then refunded my “joining fee” for my promise not to sue them!
I guess my problem is, I think I'm so messed up I don't know where to start, and I do blame the IC. They are Amway from hell, condemning anyone who doesn't do what they say, when they say it. However, I've had to stop and ask myself, “What do I really have to offer people?” and I come up with the answer of, “Nothing really.”
I know I understand a lot about The Bible, but so does the devil. So what? I have of late been asking, “Where is the God of Elijah!?!” This world needs the power of The Cross... then I ask, "Where is that today?" I'm really wondering how to offer people something when I have nothing worth offering. The church is just all cheep parlor tricks, and goody goody self righteous sewage.
I've been thinking a lot, and posting here very little. I'm taking some down time from my past foolishness, and trying to wait on Him, just like I'm having to wait on my kefir and kombucha.
That is our family prayer target for this year -- we just might as well not do ANYTHING until God shows up!
Although, we have had some dramatic answers to prayer... we are seeing God at work in powerful ways. Just not enough to draw a crowd quite yet!
YOU have a great deal to offer: you are the "fragrance of life"... But you are at the place where you probably need to sit tight and wait for the smell to start drawing "those who are called to eternal life."
But, yes, spending some time in detox is critical.
My friend and I were laughing yesterday about the fact that now that we "don't do anything... we are awfully busy!" But, we aren't living the hectic "soccer mom" life anymore... rather we are on the phone with people who want God's help to change, on email with people who want to learn, and spending critical time with our kids, letting them discover God's gifts in them. We try to stay home and live productive lives, without filling the calendar with a lot of nonsense.
This morning, my daughter asked me if she could listen to the Church Planting Training by Brian Hogan. Sure, why not. Home school will be "Church Planting 101 today! And then, she asked "Do you think we could have people come for a week of discipleship training?" At first, I said, "yeah someday". I was thinking the old way, of long term programming by the adults... but then I realized what I was doing and I said,
"Daughter, if you have a burden for that, put it in your journal, pray about doing it, and ask God to tell you who to invite!"
New motto: if the kids express a ministry burden, let them do it!
She's thirteen and she's saved, learning from the Spirit, and grounded. So, why should I do it for her?
But, it has taken me 5 years to get to the point where I even re-think such a thing.
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
quote:Laurie Ann said: But, yes, spending some time in detox is critical.
Detox! Yes, that is defiantly the word for it!
quote: She's thirteen and she's saved, learning from the Spirit, and grounded. So, why should I do it for her?
But, it has taken me 5 years to get to the point where I even re-think such a thing.
Your daughter's maturity reminds me of a girl I worked with in one of the churches I was children's pastor at. She actually took over when I left (she was only 16 at the time) and continued on with what The Lord was doing there. That was amazingly wonderful!!!
The truth is, I have waste almost all of my “ministry” time talking instead of listening. If I had to do it all over again, I would sit down with the children and youth I worked with and listen 90% and talk 10% ...MAYBE even more!
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I guess my problem is two fold. I'm kinda to the place where I just want to "let the ignorant be ignorant. The truth is, I'M TIRED!!! I'm to the place where I just want to be left alone.![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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