quote:Would like to start my own group at home though i have no illusions about my qualifications to be an elder just want to start something that is real.
Hi Joseph of Columbus, you wrote the above a day or so ago and it had me thinking again. Let me first ask you if you are aware that most of the great saints of the Old Testament wouldn't qualify as a New Testament elder in most churches, according to their literalist translations?
We confuse qualifications with conditions, I fear. They aren't the same. I require my kids not to talk back, for example. If the do, they are still my kids. A requirement isn't always a condition, you see.
Look at the high demands set before EVERY Christian. Be perfect. Sin not. Pluck you eyes out rather than... I think you get it. Do we read this texts and walk away concluding that we cannot be Christians, therefore???
Every Christian "older one", aka ELDER, is to be a faithful shepherd, exhibiting exemplary character and home life. No exceptions.
If you fail the qualification (the virtue that qualifies you) in one area, you repent and continue on, more humble and more wise than before. You don't step down because you never stepped up.
Bottom line - eldership isn't an office just as being an older woman isn't an office. Both groups are to model Christ, oversee things, and teach the younger ones. That's an order - it's not optional for either gender.
Could this really be? Truth is, your feeling of insufficiency may be your greatest asset in God's eyes.
Sometimes I have questions. Can you tell me why, "...most of the great saints of the Old Testament wouldn't qualify as a New Testament elder..." holds any significance?
I have one other question for you... Have you ever been offended by a novice Christian? Look in Acts 6:1-10. I think Paul’s teaching to Timothy in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and also Paul writing in Titus 1:7-11 is of the utmost importance. There are more.
I have suffered great loss at the hands of novice Christians because the church has placed them in authority in direct violation of Biblical mandate. Several of them have been older, and one is greatly esteemed in part of the church world today. The truth is, these men are still boys. They have just gained notoriety for different reasons, none of which has anything to do with their spiritual maturity level.
Leadership is a great responsibility. A requirement is a requirement, in order to be obedient. When your young children don’t do as you say, they are children, and incapable of heavy responsibility. The church teaching that "a novice can learn as they lead" comes from religion, and a desperate lack of discipleship. Good is the enemy of best. We have a high calling, one of discipleship. I think that that should not be taken up by a novice, nor should it be taken lightly.
A heretic for Christ, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Several box office hits in recent years have had time travel themes. Scripture even has a few accounts of folks who appeared from the past. Matthew, let's say that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or David showed up in your town and wanted to help in a particular church. It looks to me they would not meet the NT standards of leadership, particularly with respect to family life. Imagine Abraham, the Father of the Faithful, unable to serve as a deacon.
But brother, I am just speculating. Take it or leave it. :)
In no way am I trying to lower the bar, that is, the requirements, but rather to show that our Christian seniors - all of them - are appointed or ordained to be shepherds in the church. Obviously, if there personal lives are amuck, they will have little effect till they repent and reform. That they must.
Look at all those commas in the requirement passages. Yes, this matter it of utmost importance just as you maintain, my brother.
What would our world look like, M, if every christian "older one" woke up each day, looked into the mirror, then told himself that by the grace of God he was going out to model Jesus and to mentor/coach/teach/shepherd the younger ones???
(Notice this important sequence in scripture: elders are to be bishops/pastors. The latter are never exhorted to be the former. See Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5, for example.)
And yes, I have been burned by younger men and have seen several, just out of seminary, come on the scene and completely destroy the unity of a church. Another reason, say I, churches need pastors not just a pastor.
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D Anderson, I could not agree with you more; Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, nor David would be unable to even serve tables in the New Covenant church. Perhaps I can shed some light on the topic. I didn't say it, the apostles under the leading of The Holy Spirit did.
You seem to be of the opinion that pastor, apostle, deacon, bishop, prophet etc... were these men's rank. You even used the word "elder". Ever looked all of these "ranks" up in anything besides King James. I never had, until just a few days ago. Here is what I found.
The men in Acts were chosen from the disciples or (Greek "mathEtEs") "learners" to became deacons or (Greek "diakoneO trepeza") "table servers". A bishop is a later replacement of the word "supervisor." They were chosen from among the table servers who were chosen from the "learners". The term deacon is a later variation and replacement of the word (Greek "diakonos"), always meaning simply "servant". This is consistent throughout, and even in Timothy and Titus. In Philemon 1:1 "the bishops and deacons" were simply (Greek "sunergos hemeis") or "fellow workers." This was not their rank in The Church, but there jobs. King James hands out churchly titles like Ford makes cars!
Here is the truth, not speculation. The first step was to be a disciple or "learner." From that group seven were chosen to become lofty "table servers." From that group were chosen what you know as bishops or simply "supervisors" and eventually what you know as evangelist or more simply, "messengers." If you didn't make server, you were not allowed to work in the church, period. And you obviously know how stiff those requirements were.
As far as what you know as "elders" goes, this was SIMPLY a description of one's age (old used to be good). The word in Greek is the same in Luke 15:25 as it is throughout Timothy and the rest of The New Testament.
Oh, one more thing. There is never ANY mention of a shepherd by name(what you know of as a "pastor") after Jesus called Himself "The Ideal (Perfect) Shepherd" in the book of John. If you think being a "deacon" is slim pickins, look and see what Jesus said He was like, as our shepherd.
You are being hindered by the King James, and what you have been told it means.
A heretic for Christ, MAtthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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