posted
Hi Steve, Contrary to popular opinion, scripture says nothing at all about being "in fellowship" or "out of fellowship" either with God or with any group of saints! This is rather a concept which has been promoted in almost every denomination of Christendom for the purpose of CONTROL! i.e. "IF you are "in fellowship" with us, you are granted certain rights and privileges IN OUR GROUP. But, if you are "out of fellowship" with us, then you are denied certain rights and privilges IN OUR GROUP!
Thus there is a powerful (and coercive) motivation to conform to the group rather than to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Scripturally one either "has fellowship" with God or one does not "have fellowship" with Him. If one says that they have fellowship with God and walks in darkness, he lies and does not the truth. I John 1:6
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
So, on this forum, people are free to participate even if they are not regenerate, even if they hold doctrines with which other participants do not agree! But the only ones with which believers on this forum truly HAVE FELLOWSHIP are those who are walking in the light and are thus HAVING FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD.
Personally, I would much rather hear what a person DOES believe relative to God and the nature of the believer, than what one does NOT believe! Maybe you would briefly state what you DO believe and simply direct us to the specific statements of scripture which are the foundations for your beliefs.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Your servant for Jesus' sake, Bruce Woodford
Steve Maxwell
posted
Dear Bruce,
I feel kind of strongly about fellowship not being defined in sectarian terms myself. Your comments are appreciated - a bit of overkill being the only drawback. Also, if my meaning was unclear, the 'fellowship' referred was not that of this forum, but (hypothetically) the fact to face kind, with the indwelling Christ in one another.
The issues you raise in your very didactic way are worthy of my consideration, even though you chose not to answer my question.
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin."
I believe that. "If" is a big little word.
Thank you for the liberty to participate in your forum. I wouldn't have bothered had I discerned any sort of party spirit. However, I have in past had brethren learn through mutual acquaintences that your truly held to an unorthodox Christology. There have been expressions of incredulity. Since I don't frequent clergy-laity gatherings much, I've not actually been publically renounced or burnt at the stake.
Most of the brethren who know me haven't lost one wink of sleep over the issue.
I wanted to get a response from someone who doesn't know me.
Thank you for your interest in my beliefs.
If its OK, I'd like to wait a few days to see if anyone would care to answer my question.
Then, if you're still of a mind to indulge me, I'll share a brief synopsis of my Christology.
posted
Hi Steve, Sorry I did not get your intended meaning of fellowship as being face to face as if you lived in our community and desired to gather as part of our home church. Is that what you intended?
If so, I personally, would not have a problem with it. I would want to get to know you and learn where you were coming from and why you believe the way you do. If you were happy to fellowship without contention with those who DO believe that the three- Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and that believers, while being in the Spirit also have flesh to contend with, I would see no reason to reject you. We have enjoyed fellowship with many people from various backgrounds who had varying beliefs and convictions.
So whenever you feel free, share with us what you believe and why.
How would others on this forum respond to Steve's question?
the Bible says we are believers if we believe in Christ. we are christians because of what we beleive about christ. Jesus did not give us a list of things to believe in in order to be saved. the apostle's creed and all were brought into the church later. believing in God does not save us and neither does believing the Bible's inerrency (however ya spell it). we are saved because of what we believe about christ.
Terry
posted
I as Steve do not believe in the trinity as it is taught in most churches. I believe in God the father our creator. Christ the son who came into this world to teach us the way to salvation, and that he died for our [my] sin so that we [I] might have the hope of ever lasting life in God's kingdom. I believe we must adhere to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The Holy Spirit is just what it says in the bible it is, God's power. The Holy Spirit is all that he is and causes his will to be done. Although we can't see it we can see what it has done and is doing and at times can feel it in our hearts and soles. I'm not a writer so please over look some of my wording. I also believe that when the time is near for the return of Jesus that knowledge will be given to those who are walking in the light with him and studying and praying for guidance, and all things will be made clear. Terry
posted
This Terry is historical gnosticism that you teach. The Father is a Spirit and a person. Same with the Holy Spirit. Jesus was not just a man because only God could die for the elect.
posted
Terry, When the Lord Jesus, Himself, spoke of the Holy Spirit as a person, ("When HE the Spirit of truth is come, HE will guide you into all truth. HE shall not speak of himself...etc") how can you speak of Him simply as an impersonal "power"? What scriptural statement teaches you that the Holy Spirit is "the power of God"??
The Holy Spirit can be grieved, but such emotion is not the experience of an impersonal power! You can lie to and tempt a person (as Ananias and Sapphira did Acts 5:3,4 and 9) but it is impossible to lie to or tempt an impersonal power!
Gary, what scripture has lead you to believe that Christ died only for the elect? Scripture says that He died "for the ungodly", "for the unjust", "for all" and that He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the whole world." Scripture never ever says that Christ died only for the elect!
Bruce
Terry
posted
First of to abamall. I though this forum was to discuss not call names. I was not trying to be a teacher and as for Gnosticism this is clearly wrong. Your statement of God dieing for the elect. God can not die! Jesus died for all who will believe in him and what he taught. Jesus was a ransom for the sins of Adam a prefect human so a perfect human life had to pay the ransom. Jesus is the son of God and the son of Mary. The human part of him had to make him subject to sin other wise his ransom would not make the payment needed to pay for the sins of Adam that was our inheritance. Remember in Luke 4:1-13 Satan tried to tempt Jesus. Now Satan knows who God is, do you think that he was trying to tempt God? The one that he knew created every thing, including himself. No Jesus had to be vulnerable other wise his dieing for our sins would not pay the ransom needed. Thank you for reading Terry
[This message has been edited by Terry (edited 02-19-2004).]
posted
Bruce: In Greek most things were spoke of with a gender [ like my ship, she is a good ship] God is always talk about in the male form, therefore when talking about his spirit Greeks of that time would use this type of wording. The Greek word that was used in this scripture was male and in translation to English HE could be used. In all most all of the references to the Holy Spirit it is referring to God’s will being done. The Holy Spirit is not impersonal it is God at work this is far from impersonal. Just a few scriptures to show God’s spirit at work Ezekiel. 11:24, Exodus. 10:13 & 15:8, Genesis 1:2, 6:17, 8:1. Thank you for listening. Terry
posted
We must realize that the Lord Jesus, from His birth at Bethlehem was and is and always will be a man. That man is God. True, God cannot die, but the man who died was God!
There are two sides to this story! The following are two statements of the Lord Jesus, Himself, which illustrate this in a different way:
God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. " John 4:24
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as ye see me have. Luke 24:39
posted
I'm a simple man confusing talk is hard to understand. In the bible [not sure were] it states that God is not the father of confusion. So realy don't know what I was to get from your statement Bruce I thank you stating scriptures I need that but didn't see your point. I don't mean to offend you. I do not argue and get mad about the word of God to get mad is to not to be sure of ones own belief. So bgamall I will discuss anything about the scriptures, but if you just going make statements to try to get me mad you won't. So if I do not answer you please forgive me. We all learn as we go on our trip we only fall into danger when we are not willing to listen to what other think and believe. To have a closed mind can be very dangerous.
I'm very sorry for confusing you. That certainly was not my intention! Rather, I was trying to emphasize the twofold nature of the Lord Jesus: being God (a Spirit that must be worshipped in spirit and in truth) and man (having a body of flesh and bones which could be seen, touched, handled, could eat food etc.)
Had He not been God, He would not have been sinless and therefore could not have died for the sins of others but would have had to die for his own sins. Had He not been man, He could not have experienced our life, our temptations and could not have died.
But being fully God and fully man, He was able to be the mediator between God and man. I Tim.2:5, 6 says:"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
Some of the reasons why I believe that there are three persons in one Godhead are the following:
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
That Jesus is not the Father is clearly shown by John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. Also John 14:6-12 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
That Jesus is not the Holy Spirit is clearly shown by John 15:26 and John 16:7: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
I hope this post is less confusing and sheds a little more light on the subject.
posted
Bruce, thank you. One’s opinion on reasoning in the bible right or wrong doesn’t make it a new religion. We were made with free will, which is what makes us special and also is are down fall. We discuss these things and hopefully come to the same conclusion but if we don’t it still leaves us with one thing in common, brothers in Christ and the knowing of what his death means to us. We will all [that are trying to follow Christ] find out in the end these things that we are not sure of. I believe that God wants us to follow those things that are clear and when Jesus comes back find us doing our best with the rest. We are all at different levels of understanding, knowledge and what God has reviled to us. We can no more think alike as we can look alike. As for 1 John that you quote: 1. 5:7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century) In many bibles it reads. 5. This is the One who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6. This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7. For there are three that testify. 8. the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Other than this, what you quote confirms what I have been saying. Again I thank you for the scriptures you quote and the time you took to look them up and the time to talk to me. Your brother in Christ Terry
A key requirement to Christian fellowship is are we all truly Christians? Do we truly believe on Jesus Christ? 1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Steve, are you saying when you don't believe in the concept of the 'trinity' you don't believe Jesus is also one with God?
Jesus said I and my Father are one.(Joh 10:30) Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The concept of Jesus being a man, but also being God, the concept of Jesus being a separate person from God the Father sent by God but also being one with God the Father and being the creator of the universe, are hard concepts for people to comprehend. His ways are not our ways. He is so far above us!
In answer to the initial question, if any person is truly seeking God, they are welcome in our fellowship. We are commanded to preach the gospel to all creatures. We would not want you to teach until we verified you met the requirements of eldership (including adhearance to sound doctrine, that is, only the Bible) and exhibited fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life.
Michael
P.S. I am curious, have you ever written any books?
posted
I think that we have to try and shed the view that if a man wrote it down, then it should be avoided like a cow pasture on a hot summer day after the cows have eaten breakfast.
What is being discussed here has been discussed from the beginning of the church and onward. It was only when men who searched the Scriptures to find out if these things are true, and came to good conclusions did the`church have any stability in knowing what the truth of Scripture is. It takes work and study to find out what we are supposed to know, and we do ourselves no good by claiming that we have to rediscover it all for ourselves in order for it to be valid and binding.
-------------------- Earnestly contending,
Gary
"...should not a people consult their God? ...To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:19-20)
If something is taught in scripture it is valid whether we discover it or not! But, would you not agree that, if men teach something, we do not and cannot KNOW whether it is valid UNLESS we search the scriptures AND FIND IT THERE?
Of course I would agree. But there is no sin or violation of the rule of the Scriptures to give something a name that helps it's identification or teaching, as long as that name does not produce confusion by being associated with something that the Scriptures speak against.
Do Christians believe that God is a Trinity? Yes! And why? Because that is how He is defined in the Bible.
-------------------- Earnestly contending,
Gary
"...should not a people consult their God? ...To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:19-20)
posted
At one time I belonged to the United Pentecostal Church. Although their doctrine is pretty strict, and often (I thought) unbiblical, I never considered them to not be Christians. However they believe in God, Jesus and the Holy spirit being one person. Does that mean that they are not Christians?
So good to hear from you, brother. I also would not regard these as unbelievers though I do believe that all truth is important and has consequences.
Look at this interesting passage concerning some early disciples - they also had some problems with understanding the Godhood:
Acts 19:1-2 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain DISCIPLES, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
May the Lord increase our knowledge and love and patience with others,
posted
Ted, I can appreciate the point that Dave brought up, but another person''s confusion or lack of understanding cannot negate the truth of Scripture or the essentials of the Christian faith. It is true that we come to understanding the Bible in stages, and that no one should be "dis-fellowshiped" for the sake of inexperience, but certain things must be believed BEFORE one can be allowed into the fellowship of the church, and this is one of them.
One of the basic things that anyone who is a Christian should know is who God is and what the Bible says about that definition. Now there are some who say that the Bible can be made to mean anyting you want it to mean, but that is only true if those who do so are willing to lie. Not a comfortable word these days, but it applies here, not in the sense that anyone is doing it in this discussion, but that those who try to use the Bible to disprove the nature of God (sadly such as the UPC) must. They must ignore (or twist) the Scriptures that refer to God as THE Father (one person and not A god), Jesus as THE Son (one person and not A god), and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit (one person and not A god). The three are one God in three persons, not one god in one person as the UPC believes (to my understanding)
Now does this mean that I (or others) should not speak to them? Of course not! I would be happy to share the Scriptures and the FULLNESS of the Gospel with them (2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,) but I cannot admit those into that same fellowship of believers, those who will not or do not believe.
From 2 John - "5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds."
I think that this is what is meant by loving in the truth. Note that the standard of belief is given in the context of loving one another. The Trinity is the teaching of Christ, so to reject it is to reject Him and to not have God, both of which are prerequisites for being a believer. I'd work hard to make sure that someone has that teaching, but if they don't they cannot be considered believers or disciples. This is why the early NT church placed so much importance on obeying the Great Commission's command to make disciples. God is the One who will take care of conversion. That's His job, ours is to make disciples. He makes them into believers.
Remember that there is a great difference between doubt or questioning and disbelief. The latter is deliberate. Sadly, the section from second John shows that Bruce is in error with what he has posted. But, Scripture is a better corrector of error than we are.
I hope this helps.
-------------------- Earnestly contending,
Gary
"...should not a people consult their God? ...To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:19-20)
I have made a number of posts on this thread and would be interested to hear from you in which one you believe I am in error and how II John would correct that error.
BTW, whose responsibility is it to "receive into the fellowship of the church"? Is such a thing possible?
Does scripture ever speak of people being received "into fellowship", being "dis-fellowshipped" or "put out of fellowship"? I know such terms are widely used and accepted among most evangelical Christians, but I personally believe that such terms communicate ideas that are foreign to God's Word.
It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that all believers are called to the fellowship of Jesus Christ our Lord (I Cor.1:9)
It is also my understanding that if we walk in the light as He is in the light we HAVE fellowship one with another. I John 1:7. However, if we say that we HAVE fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. I John 1:6
So, it seems to me, that the only person who may put me into the position of "not having fellowship" is myself, by my own choice to "walk in darkness".
If I am walking openly in sin or immorality (as in I Cor.5), the saints with which I gather are NOT called to "put me out of fellowship"! If I have been living that kind of life, I have not even HAD FELLOWSHIP ever since I chose that path! But the believers with which I gather would then be responsible NOT TO EAT and NOT TO COMPANY WITH ME! Such actions on their part would not "put me out of fellowship" but would simply demonstrate to me how they are instructed by God to treat a professing Christian who has chosen to walk in darkness and thus does NOT HAVE FELLOWSHIP with God.
I'd appreciate hearing how you understand the matter of "fellowship" from scripture.
I am happy to give a defense for the hope that is in me, but once again, you are stating that what I say is nowhere in Scripture or not found in Scripture. That is a large defense to make, since what it actually being said is that I speak not according to this word, meaning that I have no dawn. (Isaiah 8:20) The eastern concept of having no dawn means that the person is threatened by or affected by death and is unclean. Now you can say that if you want, and I will say that what I said is "not found in Scripture" to save you the trouble, BUT unless one is rejecting the historical and coltural context in which the Scriptures were written and take place within time, the accusation of "Not found in Scripture" is borne of a lack of knowledge by the one saying it.
In short, since I respect you as a professed brother and give you the benefit of the doubt, I make this request. Why don't you tell me what YOU be;ieve about the Bible, the Trinity, Jesus Christ, faith, grace, and the glory of God? I do not know what you believe. Should I accept your statement that you are a Christian simply because you say you are one? The Scripture forbids that. (i John 4:1-3; 2 John 5-11) Therefore I am forbidden by God to accept or receive you into fellowship with me because I do not know if you bring the requisite requirements of the Christian faith to our fellowship. Christians are not to be accepted on their profession alone, but on what they ARE. James 2 speaks to this need:
"14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
In specific reply to your question as to what error of yours is refuted by 2 John, I quote from your post that has this section -
>Hi Steve, >Contrary to popular opinion, scripture says nothing at all about being "in fellowship" or "out of fellowship" either >with God or with any group of saints! This is rather a concept which has been promoted in almost every denomination of >Christendom for the purpose of CONTROL! i.e. "IF you are "in fellowship" with us, you are granted certain rights and >privileges IN OUR GROUP. But, if you are "out of fellowship" with us, then you are denied certain rights and privilges >IN OUR GROUP!
You say that the aspects of fellowship are used in Christendom for the purpose of control, but the Bible uses its own standards of correct belief for the propagation of the truth of the Gospel and Scripture as a whole. See the quoted Scriptures to substantiate this. They also answe this statement of yours -
>BTW, whose responsibility is it to "receive into the fellowship of the church"? Is such a thing possible?
Both possible and required. If I may mention something that I have noticed on these boards. There seems to be the presence of a tendency that the institutional Church has been troubled with for years. It is the need to re-invent the wheel. The need to start everything from scratch and figure out everything for ourselves AND BY OURSELVES. Unless we can invent it ourselves, it carries the taint of the institutions from which we came.
I am NOT going to point out every place that I have noticed this, besides, its just a general feeling I have. I get it when I have to prove everything I say by where I find it in Scripture. I have to answer the charge that things that have been accepted by strong and devout believers are "nowhere to be found in Scripture". If you want me to show you where these things are, then ask questions. Please don't dismiss or wave off everything you haven't heard of by saying that I do not speak according to the Word. Please remember that the context of our discussion is the Bible, and that the Bible teaches more than the EXACT words that are on its pages.
-------------------- Earnestly contending,
Gary
"...should not a people consult their God? ...To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:19-20)
quote:In short, since I respect you as a professed brother and give you the benefit of the doubt, I make this request. Why don't you tell me what YOU believe about the Bible, the Trinity, Jesus Christ, faith, grace, and the glory of God? I do not know what you believe.
Feel free to follow up on these different items provided they are in an appropriate forum, otherwise the forums will be of little use to others who come along later and attempt to navigate. Thanks. Just make sure that there is some bearing on what you write to the subject, which in this case is 1-Apologetics 2-Trinity. Granted these things can and do overlap.
It's easy to start a new topic. Just copy the new url so that others can click right over. Example:
Also, to neatly quote something just surround the words with [QU*TE] yada, yada [/QU*TE] or check out the link to the UBB Code which appears on each reply or new topic page. I had to use the * to keep the yada, yada from being quoted itself. LOL.
posted
To get this thread back on track, and realizing that I do not possess the biblical intellect to contend on this matter, let me add this. I was raised a Christian. I was baptized when I was about seven years old. Mainly because old brother elder Jack Turner came down and knelt beside me and convinced me that I should accept Jesus and be baptized. I didn’t really understand what I had committed myself to. As a result, even though I knew God, looking back, I do not feel that I was saved. My latter life up until I was truly saved would be a testament to that. In 1989, realizing that God had cut me about all of the slack that He was going to, I started attending church which happened to be a United Pentecostal Church. I was saved the day before Easter and baptized on Easter Sunday 1989. There is not space here to get into details (another time perhaps) of my six years that I spent in the UPC church. I have always considered it to be my “Boot Camp” of becoming a Christian. I must say that even from my youth, I had not been comfortable with the concept of a three-person trinity. Of course the UPC “one-person” doctrine just enforced my belief. I eventually left the UPC church for reasons that I won’t go into now, and joined a non-denomination church, where I still attend from time-to-time. Since leaving the UPC, I have often considered and reflected upon the Trinity. I have come to believe that there is more evidence for the “Three Person” belief than for the “One-God” of the UPC persuasion (and some others). If you pinned me down, I would have to say that I hold with the “Triune of God”. Now don’t ask me why. Although I realize that the doctrine of the trinity has been the fundamental doctrine of most churches for fifteen centuries. However, I have never read anywhere in the Bible a text of the doctrine of the trinity. I have never found the words trinity or triune. Not in the AV or biblical translations derived from the available texts. Churches that hold to this doctrine usually come up with their own brand of a compromised trinity. Most will not give you a text of their doctrine of the Trinity. They will only state that they believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. This is the central doctrine of the Christian religion is not a biblical concept that a Bible reader can truly validate nor negate. I know that you have all studied your Bible, and you will acknowledge that there is an explicit 100% endorsement for the “Unity of God”, however zero percent explicit endorsement for the “Trinity of God”. Compton’s Interactive Encyclopedia defines: Trinity, doctrine of, in Christianity, belief that there are three persons in God or the divine nature: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. However most advocates of the Three-person Trinity fail to define how these three persons are similar or dissimilar in Glory, Majesty, Status, Substance or Nature.
I ask you: Is the Son (The Second Person of the Trinity) “full fledged” God just like his Father, the “First Person of the Trinity”. Different individuals have different versions of this. Could Jesus, being equal, send the Father on a mission? Bet you will get a lot of different answers on this. I must admit that, as I said, I find more evidence to support a three-person God, but you must agree that there is a reason for some confusion here. I realize that I am out of my class here, and that many of you can “cut me of at the ankles” so to speak. I am just looking for some reinforcement for my beliefs. I study my bible daily and have read it through about a dozen times. But I realize that I need help here. Please don’t come back with analogies or word games. Show me where this doctrine is founded in the Scriptures. And by scriptures I mean those that are bases on the original manuscripts. I keep coming back to what Jesus said: “He said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment.” Sorry that this is so long. In Christ, Ted Harris
posted
Hi all, I have addressed the rationale of the simple Forum guidelines in another location... since they aren't directly related to Apologetics. In so doing, it will not be necessary for others to needlessly download that content and scroll through it here.
posted
Hi Gary, For a continuation of the discussion relative to "fellowship" not directly related to the "trinity" please see the HOuse church forum, and the discussion "fellowship and disfellowship" under the topic "Discipline and Conciliation".
God could have given us a big systematic handbook of theology, complete with indices, outlines, and translations into every language of the world for all the major "keywords." He didn't. We didn't even get an inspired cross-reference Bible.
The fact that the exact words or phrases are absent means little or nothing as the original words were in Hebrew/Syriac/Greek and there exists no *inspired* translation for their modern English meanings. Yes, we can get some pretty good ideas of their meanings as we study their usuages.
Is a concept present in Scripture even if the words are not? Certainly we should not force people to adopt terms like 'Trinity.' If they believe the concept and all the scriptures about it - that's the main thing. It is quite an incomprehensible concept, is it not?
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Since in Matthew we read that the Holy Ghost is the father of the baby Jesus, the arguement in the trinity becomes stickier. Col.2:8-9 tell us that we need to beware lest any man spoil us through philosophy and vain deciet,after the tradition of men,after the rudiment of the world, and not after christ,because in him (christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead bodily. Honestly, Jesus is reported in scripture as being the creator. Isaiah 9:6 tells of the son who would be called "Wonderful, counseler, mighty God, the everlasting father, and the prince of peace" ya gotta admit, there are arguements to be made for the oneness side of theology. Jesus never taught the trinity doctrine as far as we can deduce from scripture. The apostles never made it a required teaching, or even a teaching we can prove. Why do men's traditions continue to stress a doctrine NEVER central to the NT church? The doctrine of the trinity developed over a few centuries. Do we really need to make it a point of contention? Maybe we would be better served to teach what Jesus taught, and what the apostles taught, and leave the developed doctrines relegated to the bin of philosophy and traditions of men.
-------------------- Acts 2:38-The Seal of Salvation
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3 NASB
Since Jesus affirmed that His Father is "the only true God", who are we to say that Jesus also is true God? And since Jesus referred to two individuals here, His Father the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom He had sent, who are we to claim that They are one and the same individual?
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Jesus also indicated that He and His Father are TWO. He said to the Pharisees:
In your law it is written that the testimony of TWO PEOPLE is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me." John 8: 17,18
Since He clearly indicated in this statement that there were TWO individuals who bore witness to Him ---- He, and His Father, then we must conclude that His statement, "I and the Father are one" does not mean that they are one and the same individual.
Jesus in His prayer to His Father in John 17, said:
[b]The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one... John 17:22[b]
If Jesus and the Father are one in the sense of being a single individual, then, if we become one as They are one, we will become a single individual also.
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