posted
On another thread someone mentioned they believed man was triune, just as God, based on the one text, 1 Thes. 5:23. Does man have three distinct parts: spirit, soul and body? Are the spirit and soul really different?
1 Thes. 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I looked up the definitions of the words: spirit, soul and body as used in 1 Thes. Body simply means body, our physical body made of flesh and bones. However, the words for soul and spirit were very similar, infact they were considered comparative and often used interchangablely in scripture except when denoting a supernatural spirit as angels, demons, or the Holy Spirit.
Spirit- 4151- a current of air; a breath or breeze- by anal. Or fig. – a spirit (human) The rational soul, (by imp.) vital principle, mental disposition, or (superhuman) angel—demon—God—Christs’s spirit, the Holy Spirit:--Christ’s spirit, the Holy Spririt:--ghost, life, spirit, mind comp. 5590.
Soul 5590 breath, (impl)spirit, abst. Or conc. (the animal sentient principle only: thus distinguished on one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other form 2222 which is the vitality of plants, corresponds to Heb. 5815, Heb. 7307 and Heb. 2416. heart, life, mind, soul, us, you.
In the online lexicon the meanings were even more similar. Both spirit and soul in this context means the same thing. They refer to living, breathing, rational souls with a heart and mind.
We can also compare scripture with scripture to see if they are the same or separate. You may wish to check the meanings of the words in the Hebrew. However, they too can be the same. Are they the same in scriptural context?
The spirit can feel anguish, the soul feels bitterness
Job 7:11 (KJV) Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
The soul refuses to be comforted and the spirit is overwhelmed.
Psalm 77:2-3 (KJV) In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. [3] I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Psalm 142:3-4 (KJV) When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me. [4] I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul.
The soul magnifies and the spirit rejoices.
Luke 1:46-47 (KJV) And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
The word of God divides both the soul and spirit.
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The soul can be troubled but so can the spirit.
John 12:27 (KJV) Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 13:21 (KJV) When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Spirit feels anguish, soul feels bitterness Soul can’t be comforted, spirit overwhelmed. Soul magnifies the Lord and spirit rejoices in the Lord Both are divided by the word of God. Both can be troubled. In the above scriptures, these words were used more or less interchangablely. They both breath and live; and they both feel, think and can worship God. Are these two, soul and spirit, really two different things? Or aren’t they used together in the same sentences to break up the monotony of repeating the same phrases and words?
*Some more things the soul or spirit can do. Souls sin, touch things, cleave to, desire or longeth for, and depart in death, anguish, can be keep diligently, have atonement for, can be poured out, kept from the pit, kept from the grave, redeemed, preserved, can desire God, can be killed only by God, can be saved, purified or unstable.
Spirits can be troubled, and also anguish (same as souls), can be hardened, can be sorrowful, sad, patient, proud, hasty, can seek God,
There are so many similar things that both the soul and spirit can do, are they actually two separate things? Is one of them immortal and the other not? Is one of them saved and the other not? Is one only the breath of man and the other the thinking of man? If so how do we know which is which?
Leviticus 5:1-2 (KJV) And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. [2] Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
Genesis 34:3 (KJV) And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.
Genesis 34:8 (KJV) And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.
Genesis 35:18 (KJV) And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Genesis 41:8 (KJV) And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.
Genesis 42:21 (KJV) And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.
Exodus 6:9 (KJV) And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage.
Exodus 30:16 (KJV) And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls.
Deut. 2:30 (KJV) But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
Deut. 4:9 (KJV) Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
Deut. 4:29 (KJV) But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with [/b]all thy soul.[/b]
1 Samuel 1:15 (KJV) And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunken neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.
1 Kings 21:5 (KJV) But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is thy spirit so sad, that thou eatest no bread?
Job 33:18 (KJV) He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
Psalm 30:3 (KJV) O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Psalm 34:22 (KJV) The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
Psalm 97:10 (KJV) Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Eccles. 7:8-9 (KJV) Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit. [9] Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.
Isaiah 26:9 (KJV) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Hebrews 10:39 (KJV) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Peter 1:22 (KJV) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
2 Peter 2:14 (KJV) Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Some use these passages (Job.32:8 and 1 Cor.) to prove the spirit is different from the soul. However, all it says is man has a spirit and God gives them understanding. Since souls are saved, they too have an understanding of God. Are they not the same? The spirit or soul of man can receive either the spirit of the world or the spirit of God and that is what separates him from the animal kingdom. He can choose which master he will follow.
*Job 32:8 (KJV) But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
*1 Cor. 2:10-15 (KJV) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
I also noticed that there are many more verses using the term “soul”. Most of the time the word “spirit” is used when referring to evil spirits, the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit (Spirit with a capitol S). Thus, the soul of man is what is important and must either be saved or lost according to who he serves.
Some things to ponder. Personally, I would never base my belief on a subject on just one passage of scripture. Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I actually was trying to reconnecet with jeff but can't figure out how to get to the line we were on, but since you are discussing the soul and spirit I thought I would share a bit.
Our high priest separates the soul and spirit. The soul and spirit are closely related and intermingled to the point that it is hard to discern one from the other. But it is critical if a believer desires to walk after the spirit and not the soul to be able to tell the difference. Paul's description in Gal. 20 is a good place to start. By looking at the fruit we can discern spirit from flesh. To know soul from spirit is more difficult since the "good" soul approximates and even will be used by the enemy to counterfiet spirit led activity. Both soul and spirit have many of the same feelings- grief, sorrow, joy etc. But there is a difference and knowing the difference determines the "spiritual" believer from the "natural" of soulish.
The spirit"s activity is not dependent on outside influence. The soulish man makes his decisions based upon outside information. Jesus always walked by the spirit so many of His choices seemed odd or out of apparent context. When he was told Lazarus was sick he waited when he could have healed Him. Just as the disciples were accepting this He says now is the time to go. In the garden His soul was dreading the cross but he turns to His spirit and rises with so much fearlessness and anointing that when they came to Him they fell to their knees. Now some might say, yeah but that's Jesus. Well look at Paul singing in chains. Or a little closer to home the martryred ones then and some believers even now who praise their way unto death.
The spirit is in communion with God and takes it's lead from the Spirit. Every truly born again believer has experienced this. Think of the times when you just "knew" or changed your mind apart from outside influence. That is the intuition of the spirit.
The spirit has three functions, intuition, communion , and conscience. Those three functions are meant to lead the soul, the mind, will, and ,emotion of a believer. Unless you know that you are tripartite you are destined to be lead by the flesh and remain soulish at best if not carnal. You have a spirit and you must walk by the Spirit in your spirit to be pleasing to God.
I was referring to the spirit of man being the same as the soul of man. Some teach the spirit of man is different than the soul of man----that even unbelievers have three parts a spirit, soul and body.
Paul was singing in chains by the spirit of Christ who lived in him---not by his own spirit or soul.
Philip. 4:13 (KJV) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Ephes. 3:16 (KJV) That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
It is the spirit or soul of man (the inner man) that needs to be saved, to be filled with the Holy Spirit that he may walk in the spirit.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
The separation of soul and spirit is a necessary doctrine to support the false doctrine that teaches that man's soul is immortal and cannot die. But the soul is not immortal. Jesus is the only source of life and he gives life to whom he chooses and takes life from whom he chooses. We do not inherently posses life in and of ourselves. We are not a god. The soul is subject to God and he controls its destiny, not the man.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Jesus is the only source of life and without him we cease to exist in any fashion or form. I like the following verses.
Man BECAME a living SOUL when God BREATHED the BREATH OF LIFE into his nostrils.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
When a man dies, the breath (or spirit) returns to God.
Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Since God created man out of the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into him to create a living soul, it only makes sense that if the breath of life returns to God that man no longer is a living soul but merely a body comprised of dust of the ground. This fact probably accounts for the very close relationship between the spirit of God and the soul of man and the breath of life.
This next verse illustrates just how interchangable the two terms are.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
At present, I believe man is comprised of body, soul, and spirit. The body is no problem for us to understand. We get into trouble with spirit and soul. For me, I believe the spirit, or breath, from God in combination with the body is what creates the "living" soul--just as scripture states (Gen 2:7).
So there is a bit of difference between soul and spirit and while both the spirit and body can exist independently from the soul it doesn't appear that the soul can exist independent of the spirit and body. When the spirit, or breath, of God is combined with the body that combination creates a living soul. If you remove the spirit or body from the equation then it stand to reason that the soul no longer exists. That doesn't mean that the essence of who we are is gone. Psalm 139 tells us that God has a book of remembrance in which all that information is stored even before our birth. "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
Jesus is our life, right? Without him we are literally NOTHING!
John 1 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The teaching that men have an immortal spirit would deny the fact that eternal life is a gift, given to only those who believe. That is serious error.
Job 27:3-4 (KJV) All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; [4] My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
If we look at the whole sentance in Job 27, this shows the spirit of God is not the breath. For all men have the breath of God in them to be physically alive. However, this person with the breath and the spirit of God will not speak wickedness or deceit. This person has the Holy Spirit of God in them and thus is a believer----not an unbeliever.
quote:When a man dies, the breath (or spirit) returns to God.
* Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
How do you prove the breath is the same as the spirit? Couldn't these be speaking of all men who's breath goes forth as dead (Ps. 146) Those who's spirit returns to God could be believers (God's Spirit would return); or could the word soul be used here as the inner man returns to God?(Ecc.12)
It still seems to me the words soul and spirit refer to the inner man; unless specifically in context referring to the Holy Ghost which fills the inner man. The inner man, regardless of if you call him a spirit or a soul, is the essence of living man, the thinking, rational part of a man, the part capable of loving God. It is the difference between men and animals. Animals are never refered to in scriptures as having a soul or spirit. Although we know animals do have breath and a mind.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
you said this ;Paul was singing in chains by the spirit of Christ who lived in him---not by his own spirit or soul.
Yes it is the Spirit of Christ within him that was initiating the "singing" reguardless of the chains. Paul recieved through his spirit in communion with the Spirit of God and then expressed that by the functioning of the soul, his mind recieved revelation, his will desired to express that leading, and his emotions fill with joy and thanksgiving. The spirit recieves directly from God by communion with God and knows this intuitively. This intuitive knowing is accepted by the mind of a man and if he follows the leading he is in the will of God walking by the Spirit of God. The key is the source of initiation.
It is unfortunate but the translators do not always translate words the same. Sometimes spirit refers to breath and sometimes it seems they are referring to the soul. However, in this case in Job I don't think it is the Holy Spirit. Also, since this "spirit" is in the nostrils that gives evidence that this may very well refer to breath--the breath of life from God, rather than just air.
Strongs gives this definition of spirit in Job 27:3:
Ruwach: 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
Alinhim,
Since this is a question we cannot possibly understand with our own knowledge, I want to encourage you to use scripture as the authority here.
posted
Hello again Faith I just wanted to add something in response to your response to Jeff. Since the Bible lists in many passages the words spirit and soul I not sure why you are defending the idea that they are essentially the same? Without separating them how will you become spiritual and not soulish? Certainly not to recognize one source from another eliminates the ability to follow the will of God that you should walk by the spirit and not the soul.
note:The pneuma or breathe is life. Breathing is the evidence that someone is living. The critical point is that there are two types of life. One is the natural life of all men and the Bible has a word for it ,psuche life. This is in all men. The life that Jesus says He has come to give is the Zoe life, God's life which is eternal. Eternal Life is God's life. So Jesus tells us that we must deny the psuche life and recieve the Zoe life. Walking by the Spirit is to be lead by the Zoe life in our spirit and not the psuche life of the natural man in our soul.
You mentioned that some people defend the idea that the spirit (human spirit) and soul are two different things. So I did some research and found a free booklet that one can read over the internet that defends this idea. I reviewed it and found that it made some good points. It also contains many verses of scripture to support these points. I don't hold to all of what was said, but I like to take the meat from any speaking and just throw out the bones.
I too believe that it is very helpful to see the difference between the spirit of man and the soul of man. The Lord spoke so much about following Him, denying ourselves, loosing our souls in this life, denying our will, etc. It is the Word of God that is able to divide the soul from the spirit Heb 4:12. Even though I don't feel it is necessary to have the knowledge of it, for God to finish His good work in us, I do believe it is very helpful to us, in cooperating with the Lord for our transformation, to understand the fine differences and the mechanics' of it all.
It is hard to see the distinction between the two and most never see it, but instead only experience it, of those that are chosen, which is more important then just knowledge of something, but again it is very helpful to understand it too. 1 Thes. 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". This verse is a very clear verse stating we have a spirit, soul, and body that needs to be sanctified by the Lord and preserved blameless. The next verse you quoted Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." is a second verse stating we have a spirit, soul, and body "my mouth" a part of the body. In this verse the anguish or anxiety is shown in the human spirit. This is because the human spirit is were the intuition of our being is located. Maybe this example will help you to understand: Have you ever just known deep down inside of you, at the core of your being that something was wrong or maybe say that you were in danger, but didn't understand what was wrong or didn't perceive any danger, but maybe you just knew God did not want you to do something or go in a particular direction. A thing that might of seemed o.k., may have been moral or legally correct, etc., but something in your being was saying something's wrong. This is a kind of intuition. It is a sense. The disciples of the Lord not only as you know from scripture and probably experience receive not just a clear speaking from the Lord, but also a sense at times, Act 15:28 "For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit..." In this example you just know it is wrong or you shouldn't do it, but are still not clear why yet. You probably have had similar experiences. Many times the Lord has preserved me from danger or evil in this way, because I would check myself, and seek a clearer understanding from Him before proceeding, even though my mind (located in the soul with the emotions and will) was telling me it's o.k., it's moral, it's legal, you desire it or something else. But, deep down I knew something was wrong, I knew even though I didn't understand why yet, that God was warning me. His Spirit in my spirit was giving me the sense that this wasn't right. I had a sense of death about the situation and not a sense of life about it that comes from the Lord's yes, yes. You too may have experience this sense when you desired to buy something, you had the money, there was nothing wrong with it, and you really wanted it, but deep inside the core of your being you had a sense that was saying no or not yet, this is not for me, is it Lord?, or this is not your timing yet, is it Lord?. Next in the example I am giving of danger or evil, this sense in your intuition, located in your spirit, prompted by the Holy Spirit, produces an emotion in your soul or your soul which contains the human emotions, mind, and will responds. You have a choice, follow your understanding, your desire, your will etc. or seek the Lord about it to follow Him and get a clearer understanding of His will or timing. An emotion is also created in the soul by this sense in you intuition or it maybe clearer to say that the sense is the intuition in your spirit. Anyway, in the case of danger, it maybe fear or worry that is the emotion produced in your soul, if you are still not clear as to the danger. Your mind located in your soul responds, in the case of perceived danger it thinks fight or flight. In the case were the danger is still not perceived it thinks wait, seek the Lord concerning the issue or just follow my desire, my will. Then of course the body, the physical responds and follows the will of the soul along with the emotion and mind or thinking of the soul. Knowing the mechanics of it, helps us to distinguish between our soulish will, which is to be lost in this world, our self denied, us taking up our cross, death to our will, and that of the Lord's will for us in our spirit. And it gets even clearer as we behold Him more so that when we see Him we will know Him and we will also know who the false prophets are who have seen nothing and speak only from their own spirits as it is written some were in the O.T. Now getting back to Job 7:11, it states we have a spirit, soul, and body. Job has the sense (intuition) of anguish or anxiety in his spirit, he has the emotion of bitterness in his soul, his desire or will has been stated "I will not refrain my mouth", this will of jobs will be expressed by the body "my mouth" and I imagine not only his mouth, but other parts of his body, through body language.
Anyway Faith I hope this helps. I would encourage you not to look at it as basing your understanding on just one verse of scripture, but instead seek the Lord about it, search His recorded words, all these things I know you are doing, and be open to asking the Lord is it possible there is just something deeper or an understanding from these brothers (alinhim and jplogan) I have not yet seem Lord. Lord please confirm it or deny it one way or the other to me, and let me be open to trying to understand what these brothers are speaking about.
Faith, I believe it will be very helpful to all of us in our transformation 2 Cor 3:18 (NET) "And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit" if we not only experience it, but understand how it all works. Helpful because, it helps us to know how to behold and reflect the glory of the Lord and to distinguish that glory from ours, and from our will or desire, so that the Lord gets the glory in the church, which is all of us. The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, Grace be with you, 2 Tim 4:22 on this journey. May the Lord sanctify us wholly and preserve us all.
quote:Animals are never refered to in scriptures as having a soul or spirit. Although we know animals do have breath and a mind.
Eccl 3:19 For 3588 that which befalleth 4745 the sons 1121 of men 120 befalleth 4745 beasts; 929 even one thing 259 befalleth 4745 them: as the one 2088 dieth, 4194 so 3651 dieth 4194 the other; 2088 yea, they have all 3605 one 259 breath; 7307 so that a man 120 hath no 369 preeminence 4195 above 4480 a beast: 929 for 3588 all 3605 is vanity. 1892 20 All 3605 go 1980 unto 413 one 259 place; 4725 all 3605 are 1961 of 4480 the dust, 6083 and all 3605 turn to dust again. 7725 413 6083 21 Who 4310 knoweth 3045 the spirit 7307 of 1121 man 120 that 1931 goeth 5927 upward, 4605 and the spirit 7307 of the beast 929 that 1931 goeth 3381 downward 4295 to the earth? 776
Eccles. 3:19-21 (KJV) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. [20] All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. [21] Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Interesting passage. Both men and animals have one breath (ruwach). Both die and both go to one place. Who knows the spirit (ruwach) of man goes up and the spirit (ruwach) of animal goes down?
And this passage seems to confirm that man does not have an eternal spirit but rather his spirit is his breath or life and when he dies, he goes the same place as animals. That would be the grave wouldn’t it?
So we can still say animals don’t have a soul or spirit if you refer to the inner man, the part of man that makes him different from animals, the part that can love and worship God.
It seems that Jeff’s point about the spirit referring to the breath is probably more accurate in how the translators used the word rawach at least in some passages. Other passages it seemed interchangeable with soul as I previously listed in which both soul and spirit anguish, etc. And I was thinking of breathing the spirit could be similar to drinking the blood or living water, of that we don’t live by bread but by every word of God. For the one who breathed God’s spirit behaved righteously. Thus, was not just a breathing natural sinful man.
The soul is the inner man. In both the OT and NT the words can be translated either soul or spirit or breath. That means we must understand by the context.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Here in Matt. We see the body and soul can both be destroyed; but the soul can only be destroyed by God. Why? The body is the living breathing body of man which is the same as an animal has. Both can be killed by men and by God: their breath can be taken away. However, the soul is different. Since only God can kill the soul, this must be the part of man that is different from animals. This is the part of man that can worship God. This is the inner man that is capable of interacting with the spirit of God. This part can be filled with the Holy Spirit. Only God can destroy or give eternal life to this part.
Alinhim,
quote: The life that Jesus says He has come to give is the Zoe life, God's life which is eternal. Eternal Life is God's life. So Jesus tells us that we must deny the psuche life and recieve the Zoe life. Walking by the Spirit is to be lead by the Zoe life in our spirit and not the psuche life of the natural man in our soul.
You mentioned zoe life. That is a redundant term, for the Greek word zoe 2222 means life. So you have said we should have life life. The word for eternal is aionios 166. Eternal life is the gift of God---not zoe life!
In wondering just what you were referring to, I did a google of zoe and found some interesting things. Here is a site that gives the definition of zoe as you see it. However, it appears they have gone from the first definition (top of page), which is the correct Greek definition, to one of their own making replacing the word aionios with zoe. http://www.shiloministries.org/zoelife.htm
I believe John 10:10 is the essential verse for the zoe doctrine as in living abundantly; but wonder if they change the meaning of this passage too. Our abundance is in Christ not in things of this world. So many see abundance in physical things as evidence of God’s reward rather than keeping eyes on the heavenly.
John 10:10 (KJV) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
If you’ll go to this site and notice they seem to be adding something to the word life or zoe. True, the Christian does receive a new life after being born again; but there is no such thing as zoe life or life life. Let’s not change the meanings of words and make up new words. Eternal life as stated in scripture is good---no need to change it.
They mention bios versus zoe. The word bios means: present state of existence, good, life and living. It is only used a couple of times in the NT. Most of the time pauche is translated as life referring to physical, breathing life. A misrepresentation on the article’s part. Zoe is used many times referring to eternal life by context. However, look at Luke 1:75; Lk. 12:15 and 1 Cor. 15:19 to see that zoe doesn’t always refer to eternal life. Thus, there is no zoe life or life life! Another misrepresentation. We understand the life or zoe mentioned in many scriptures does refer to eternal life by the context; but zoe is of it’s self just life. If I say Jesus gives the life that never ends, you understand the word life is still life; but I am speaking of eternal life.
I have noticed that even the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries are being changed with new meaning being added so that one can not go back to find the original meanings. This is a very dangerous trend and possibly this is the loosing of Satan to deceive the world and gather them to battle. These things have been going on since the 1800’s with the new bible versions, etc.
Comments on reading the link Mike provided.
John 4:24 states God is spirit and we must worship in spirit. However, if animals have a spirit, then would they worship? See how absurd. Thus, spirit ,4151 pneuma, in John 4:24 is not the same as the spirit, Ruwach, in Ecc.3. Ruwach must refer to the breath of animals. Whereas pneuma which can also mean breath must refer to God, spirit, and soul in this context.
I disagree with the article that the soul is something in between the spirit (breath) and body. For they see the spirit as the inner man. That really doesn’t leave anything for the soul to be. I see the soul as the inner man. Sometimes scripture translates it as spirit and sometimes as soul. I see the breath as the spirit. Other times spirit refers to God or other supernatural beings and on occasion it means the soul. At least we can all agree on what the body is.
They state that these passages show it is the spirit that is our conscience. Romans 1:9 ; Rom 8:16 The word pneuma is used which can just as well be soul or breath. Thus, they prove nothing.
My point is that since the words used for spirit and soul both come from the same words, context tells us if it is the inner man being referred to or if it is the breath. “Spirit” and “soul” as such are not necessarily two different things. Sometimes they are used interchangeably for inner man and others for breath or even supernatural as in God’s spirit.
If we take the passages literally, we can not say man’s spirit is the inner man because animals have a spirit (breath); but animals don’t have a soul.
My conclusion is that if man is indeed three parts they consist of : breath, inner man or soul, and body. I left out spirit because it is used to describe both the breath and soul, thus confusion. The important thing is to have the Holy Spirit in our inner man!
All men have a soul; but all men haven’t had their soul quickened by the new birth.
The article says the soul experiences emotion. However, the original verses I gave in previous post showed that the spirit also experienced emotion. Thus, they are the same thing, not two.
Afraid I’ve got things to do and can’t finish the long, long article. BTW, I didn’t know things had to be so complicated. Can’t we believe, repent, be baptized, be filled with the Holy Spirit and go on to finish the race without trying to dissect man’s inner parts into so many? This guy has 3 parts to the spirit and 3 to the soul and on and on. Enough! I didn’t see any of this in scripture.
Faith
PS Jeff, Are the souls and the sea in Rev. literal or symbolic?
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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