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I inquired two days ago about how this website handles, or attempts to handle, heresy. I have received no response.
One of the things a church must do is deal with heresy. In Titus it says, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that have nothing to do with him." I don't see that happening here. To the contrary, I see coddling and self-righteous affirmation of a person in his heretical view.
I am reminded of the carnal (spiritually childish) Corinthians, who were said of Paul to "gladly put up with fools since (they) were so wise!"
The subject in question is: hell. You forum moderators can move topics around all you want; heresy is still heresy. As leaders, you will be held responsible for how you handle heresy at the judgment seat of Christ.
Saying that a heretic "makes some good points," well, you could say that about the Pope.
So I will leave you people to "affirm" one another, sometimes in truth, at other times in conceit. And if you disagree about, say, hell, who cares? What is important, you think, is that you continue to "dialog."
I am not a moderator here, but would just point out that a cafe is not a church! Heresy is handled here in just that same way as it would be handled in any other cafe, or in the lunch room of your workplace.
I'd enourage you to address people with whom you disagree here in the same manner as you would a co-worker who expressed views with which you disagreed in your place of employment.
Obviously, none of us would address such issues in a church gathering in the same manner as we would in a public workplace or public cafe!
Hope to see you continue discussions here at the cafe!
Your brother in Christ, Bruce
P.S. Have sent you a personal note. I think you'll find it in your profile.
I inquired two days ago about how this website handles, or attempts to handle, heresy. I have received no response.
Sorry I can't jump at your every beck and call. Do you think I check my email every few hours? Yesterday, I was on the job for 15 hrs, the day before, that 15 hrs. I'm also helping to homeschool our 6 kids, keep worn out cars going, and building my own house. Etc. I have just come home from another 15 hr shift and now my food is getting cold.
I have yet to meet the person who does not hold to some view which is considered to be "heretical" by others claiming also to be faithfully working from Scripture. Even John Stott, for example, has come out against eternal torment. Yes, there are real translation probs in the KJV, just as Jeff noted.
I plainly said that I would attempt to show an opposing view. I shall. ASAP.
The idea here is to show a better way rather than just call names. This, YOU haven't done with respect to eternal torment. Can you demonstrate that the failure to grasp the teaching on traditional hell will send someone there? If not, then you must beleive that a real saint could hold such a postion. True?
By the way, I could fill a small book with stories of people who supposedly wanted to help moderate things and help handle the heretics but soon fizzled out and/or vanished. God knows there are legions of them - heretics - in the land of housechurch.
Bruce is a clear exception to this pattern. Thank you, Bruce, for not dropping out!
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David, I had no idea who receives general email complaints on this site. (Of course, now I know it is you.) I have no idea what a reasonable "complaint response time" should be. But I thought I would preface my comments yesterday with the note that I had received no response in two days.
Bruce, I do not think this website is a church. But I think everyone who professes Christ's name is recognized as being in the church. If someone came to this site who did not profess Christ's name, his views are no reflection on the church. But someone who professes Christ's name is responsible for what he says subject to the Word of God.
There is a difference between church discipline and contending for the faith. No church discipline is possible outside a church; but contending for the faith is possible anytime, anywhere. It is possible on this website. I would expect other Christians to call a heresy a heresy when they see it. After the second admonition, it means "name calling," as you say, David. The NIV calls the person "divisive;" the KJV calls him "an heretick." After the second admonition, you don't present a better way, you call him what he is and move on.
If you want to attempt to reengage heretics, fine. I have already admonished the person twice, and there was a documentary trail of proof. I did not cite specific Scripture passages, but I admonished all the same. I wonder why anyone thinks introducing more evidence is going to make a difference. Do you see a need to initiate the two-step admonition process all over again?
When a person brings extensive extra-biblical "theological" baggage to an issue, here is my answer to them: read the Bible. If you want to cite chapter and verse, fine. But the real problem is that the Bible is made to compete with whole "theologies." Most people would be far better off if they had no "Christian" books other than the Bible, a concordance, and a Bible dictionary.
Heresy is simply untruth. It may be held by true believers or by mere professors. Yes, you can go to heaven and believe in a heresy. Who said the issue was whether the heretic was a believer or not? Heresy is heresy, and the Bible says have nothing to do with a heretic after the second admonition. If that means having nothing to do with a person who is one of God's elect, so be it.
I do not go around looking for heresy. But when I see one I plan on pointing it out. I do not propose any action but rather expect corroboration by others of the fact of the heresy. "By two or three witnesses a matter is established." I have not gotten this. Simply telling a heretic that you disagree with his position is a little weak for me.
In the old days heretics were burned. There is no warrant for this in Scripture. But there is warrant for naming a heretic a heretic.
"Heretic" seems like such a harsh word today. But that is only because we are in the midst of the apostasy of the church.
That John Stott held a heretical position does not impress me much. If he pressed his position on hell with me, I would reject him after the second admonition. I try to be, like God, no "respecter of persons."
When you reject a person after the second admonition, the point is, "we are not talking about anything--ANYTHING--until you repent of your unbiblical position." The rejection is hoped to be ultimately restorative.
David, I am not sure what point you were making about "those who wanted to help handle heretics and soon vanished," but if people vanish, perhaps they are separating, which is a biblical principle. Indeed, "dropping out" is what each of us did when he instituted meetings at home in the first place, wasn't it?
The fact that, as you say, David, there is heresy everywhere, house churches included, does not let us off the hook for exposing it when we come across it. What, are we supposed to give up on it because there is so much of it? I am not talking about the problem of heresy in the abstract. I am talking about responding to heresy right here and now, in the form of teaching on hell.
David and Bruce, I like you guys. I just wish as much zeal was being generated over the issue of hell as is being generated by our disagreement over a Christian's response to heresy on a website forum. But that's the way it is in the apostasy: the way one handles an issue typically becomes more controversial than the issue itself.
A few years ago, a well known pastor of a big evangelical church here in Southern Ontario came to similar conclusions as Jeff has expressed here and began preaching them from his pulpit. There were outcries, criticisms, letters of complaint circulated far and wide and many people personally opposing the man who was teaching these things. I heard about it months after and so the next time I was in that particular city, I called the man on the phone. I told him what I'd heard, asked him if the reports about his teaching were true and expressed to him from scripture why I was deeply concerned. He listened and then expressed his appreciation for the fact that I had contacted him personally to direct his attention to the scriptures. In all that time, I was only the second person who had done so! One other pastor in the same city had taken him out for lunch, opened the scriptures and sought to reprove, correct and instruct him. Although a subsequent personal letter of mine to the man did not succeed in persuading him to change his mind, he did express appreciation for two men who had taken steps to personally admonish him in the matter.
Since you claimed that you had admonished Jeff twice, I went back to reread the previous posts. I saw that you had EXPRESSED DISAGREEMENT with him, but it didn't seem to me that you had even attempted to show what was erroneous about his belief or that you had stated the truth as you understood it.
So I do not believe that you have admonished Jeff at all. To disagree, contradict, to gainsay or "say against" is not to admonish! Do you think that simple disagreement or contradiction is what "contending for the faith" really means?? To "contend" for the faith involves an agonizing struggle!
I have printed below all the scripture passages where the Greek words (Strong's #'s 3559 and 3560) translated "admonish" or "admonition" are found. The apostles admonished the saints, fathers are to admonish their own children, believers are to admonish one another, those who labor to care for the saints are to admonish those in their care, brethren are to warn the unruly, saints are to admonish a brother who will not work, and heretics are to be admonished. Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn <3560> every one night and day with tears. Romans 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish <3560> one another. 1 Corinthians 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn <3560> you. 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition <3559>, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition <3559> of the Lord. Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning <3560> every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing <3560> one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish <3560> you; 1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn <3560> them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish <3560> him as a brother. Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition <3559> reject;
In none of these cases would simple expressions of disagreement, or telling another to "read the Bible" suffice as a scriptural admonition!
I think it is evident in these scriptural examples that admonition involves scriptural teaching (doctrine), scriptural rebuke (reproof), scriptural instruction relative to the dangers of walking in error (correction) and scriptural instruction relative to the truth (instruction in righteousness). In other words, careful and patient teaching of the scriptures. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Would you not agree then that II Timothy 2:24-26 would be a scriptural description of how admonition of a heretic is to be practiced? "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
If a Christian with whom you work expressed, in a public lunch room discussion, the views which Jeff has expressed here, how would scripture teach you to respond? If that Christian opened his Bible and presented as the basis for his view the texts to which Jeff has referred....What would you do ? Would your disagreement, your counsel to "read the Bible" or your refusal to converse with him any further on the matter be of any help to the man with whom you disagreed, or to others who were listening to the conversation in the lunch room?
I sincerely hope you will give careful consideration to the scriptures referred to above and see if the Lord might have you take a different approach here in this "Radically Christian Cafe".
I did not come to the Radically Christian Cafe to become embroiled in tangential arguments. Certainly I expected that any and all comments I posted should be subject to Biblical criticism. And I welcomed correction, as you well know.
Bruce and David, forgive me for making unreasonable demands of you.
Now that I understand the Cafe to be what it is, a public coffeehouse where ideas are exchanged, I think the best policy for me, personally, is "don't go there." I do not want to be sorely provoked daily by "today's active topics" which are largely, at this point, being posted by a heretic.
My shortcomings as a handler of heretics are self-evident. I only thank God that in the church He has given me, which consists solely of my family of eight, we have no such controversies, but only joy and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ. We will, Lord willing, continue in the "simplicity that is in Christ."
I am sorry you feel as you do. But I am glad you have honestly stated your position. The only thing wrong with your position--and this is a point I brought up earlier in my article titled "Ultra-denominationalism"--is that with a position of that nature ones acceptable "church" body grows ever more circumscribed.
May God help you, Gary, to see that God accepts you just as you are and he expects us to grant honesty and sincerity to others that are seeking after Him but may not necessarily see things as we do. I do pray our journey will one day brings us both together in that better land where we can call each other brother without offense. I would not say that we will laugh about this there, but rather we may rejoice that we had opportunity to pass through the experience.
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Gary, have you really thought your position through on this stuff? Do you not realize that your idea of a heretic is actually a neat formula to discard ANYONE that comes your way. That's ANYONE who doesn't share your views of every issue.
Martin Luther believed the sacramental wine became blood. Would you, as his contemporary, have also written him off after two notices?
Some commentators regard the primary meaning of the rare word for 'heretic' as a factious person. If that is so, then it may be you who is the heretic. Again, why don't you lessen the grip on that assault weapon and just show Jeff a better way rather than positioning yourself to write him off?
Above all, are you seeking the unity of the body, brother, or are you walking through life with your clipboard and theological checklist?
Well, have a nice week-end, Gary. Sorry there was a problem in deleting some of your posts. I will unlock the one that is locked and then notify you.
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I used to believe in several errors, in my immature state as a born again believer. I was born a baby in Christ, my teachers were in error, but I didn't know it. A few errors, with a lot of truth. They were Christians, and I was Christian, but we all had false teaching that we had yet to discover. I believe I have discovered some truths that many of them still have not. They probably disagree. The church in Corinth was a mess, but it was still the church that was in Corinth. I am sure everyone here has learned better than some things they used to believe, just by growing in depth of understanding. That is why we need elders to teach. Mature in their thinking, already past many of the errors that come from narrow, shallow experience in the Lord. I am sure I will come to yet greater understandings. That doesn't make me a heretic because I will understand somethings better in days to come. I thrill to the knowledge that I will doubtless come to revelations and deeper understandings. I hope we can trust the Spirit to lead in all truth, at the learners speed without determining that the week in understanding are "heretic". Somethings just take a longer for some than others. We don't all learn at the same speed. Trust God.
-------------------- Acts 2:38-The Seal of Salvation
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