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[From topic: Why Not Seven Days of Worship]
Wow! I guess you can't sleep around here either! Looks like Faith and Chubbena have been having a lively discussion.
I think we have gotten away from the subject of this topic so I won't spend too much time responding. Just wanted to make a few comments about "signs" of Jesus' coming. Will try to open another topic for this and for kindling fire on the Sabbath.
But I don't have time right now to talk about all the signs of Jesus' coming. How in the last days there will be perilous times because men will be lovers of themselves; lovers of pleasure more than God. How the nation (beast) that sprang out of the earth rather than through conquest, begins as a peaceful nation (lamb like horns), but later speaks as a dragon and doeth great wonders such that he calls down fire out of heaven in the sight of men. Of pestilence, wars, earthquakes, how the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky...and on and on. All of these are signs that Jesus' coming is "even at the door."
But I should also mention the scoffers who say, "Where is the promise of his coming. What has changed since the beginning of time?" Apparently they are the same ones who speak of "peace and safety" just before the coming "sudden destruction." They do not see the signs. But Jesus delays his coming because he is unwilling that "any should perish."
Someone may say that we cannot know the time of Jesus' coming because he comes as a thief in the night. Yet, if you look closely those who are surprised are those who are not watching and ready. You may interpret that as those who are not eager for him to come. Pauls says, in 1 Thes 5, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
We may not know the exact day and hour of his coming at this time in history but according to the parable of the bridegroom in Matthew 25 there are those who are watching who go forth to proclaim, "The Bridegroom cometh!" But as we know, there is a slight delay and those fall asleep until the bridegrooms party awakens them.
Faith noted that in Noah's time the people were taken by surprise by the flood and that it will be the same at Jesus' coming. True, the majority will not be aware of Jesus' soon coming. There are many deceptive teachings leading people to think he has already come (he is in the desert) or that his coming must be a long way off (peace and safety). But had the people wanted to know when the flood would come they could have observed the signs.
1) Noah preached for 120 years 2) Noah prepared an ark 3) The animals filed into the ark 4) The door of the ark was closed
When the door closed it was too late for those left outside just as we will not know when our probation closes. Their faces must have grown pale when they saw that huge door mysteriously closed. It was seven days before the first rain fell so quickly they began to mock again until the rains fell. So too there will be signs prior to Jesus' coming. Are we eagerly watching for our Lord's return? Are we looking for the signs of his soon coming?
Faith, you like to quote 1 Thes 5:21. But read the two verses just prior.
1 Thes 5 19 Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
Those who prophesy today are also those who are calling for the soon return of Jesus. Their message to the world is, "Jesus is coming soon," "Come out of Babylon," and "Do not worship the beast and receive his mark." Interestingly enough, they also gave the cry, "The Bridegroom cometh," in 1844 just after the stars fell in 1833. But now they have fallen asleep, some in Jesus, some not. Now is the tarrying time when the bridegroom delays his coming and the virgins (pure) are sleeping. All these things are given to us by the Lord's messengers as signs--if we will see them.
Amos 3 7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. 8 The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?
quote:But Jesus delays his coming because he is unwilling that "any should perish."
I believe that the "any" in the context refers to those Peter writes to. They are Christians.
quote:But I should also mention the scoffers who say, "Where is the promise of his coming. What has changed since the beginning of time?" Apparently they are the same ones he speak of "peace and safety" just before the coming "sudden destruction."
How do we know that they are the same ones?
We, if we are the real deal Christians, who are enlightened by the Spirit, are not asleep, we won't be surprised..later...
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Jeff, you seem to have read something I did not mean to convey.
Just as in Noah’s day the unbelieving are totally surprised. However, the believers do not know the exact hour or day is all I was saying. They are somewhat surprised at the timing; but not like the world who is surprised he comes at all. Remember the disciples in retrospect were suprised he didn't come in their day.
Believers will not be caught unaware if they are always ready and watching for the Lord to return. That is why they were told to be sure to watch and be ready because the hour is a suprise. They are not counting the days by this sign or that sign as some popular teaching do. They are not looking for a person called “the Anti-Christ”. Rather they know the antichrist is a spirit and there have been many with that spirit, thus many antichrists. 1John 2
The perilous times began 2000 years ago; but it keeps escalating. Tribulation began for the church at the beginning of the church with much persecution and continues today. ( How about the RC inquisition, or China today?) False teachers abounded during Christ’s life and continue on. Natural disasters occurred then and continue on today.
When the disciples asked Jesus, they asked what is the “sign” not signs. Verse 30 of Matt. 24 explains “the sign” shall appear “and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds…” The sign is not a warning sign; but the announcement he is returned. What we are to watch for is him and this announcement. We’re not to say the time is near because some government took over or there are more earthquakes or whatever. We are to be ready regardless of world events just as the disciples were.
We are not taken by total surprise, because we are ready. However, the exact hour is a surprise. Like someone on standby for a plane. We know we will take the next available flight out; but we don’t know exactly when we will be able to leave. Thus, we have our bags packed and ready and are waiting, watching. So when Jesus comes like a thief, at an unexpected time, we are expecting him but the world is not. This is what I was trying to convey.
Matthew 24:3 (KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The many things that most say point to the end times have been going on for 2000 years. If we look at the last days, we see the Holy Spirit was given in the last days. That happened at Pentacost.
Acts 2:17 (KJV) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
There have been many perilous times since Christ’s day. None of these things are new to us; but do get worse and worse.
2 Tim. 3:1 (KJV) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
Jesus spoke to his church 2000 years ago in person beginning the last days.
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Here we see it was already the last time 2000 years ago and there were already many antichrists.
1 John 2:18 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
We should remember the disciples who walked with Christ were eagerly watching for Christ to return in their life time because they also lived in the perilous end time.
Are you ready today? Or do you watch for a tribulation period of 7 years, or maybe you watch for the Anti-Christ. One thing we can say is that we are nearer now than the disciples were!
We are to watch for Christ and no other.
quote: When the door closed it was too late for those left outside just as we will not know when our probation closes.
Not sure I know what you mean by not knowing when probation closes. I believe that it is only too late for one to be saved if they die before believing or the Lord returns and they have not believed yet. Once either of those two things happens, there is no other chance to believe and seek the Lord.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:We are not taken by total surprise, because we are ready.
How can we be ready when we are still washing our clothes, half naked and with one foot in the mud? Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many of us still don't have a clue what His will is. Guess why He kept delaying...
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We are ready because we are watching. If we have to wait until we are perfect, we'll never be ready. We obtain complete perfection at the second coming. However, we are also counted perfect --not for our obediance--but by Christ's offering.
Hebrews 10:14 (KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
2 Cor. 8:6 (KJV) Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
Philip. 1:6 (KJV) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
quote: We have different viewpoints on salvation probably. I used to believe we are saved the moment we truly accept Christ as the Lord but now I believe we don’t know for sure until He returns – If we truly accept, we would truly follow - our works and obedience will prove how true we are. However, “we don’t know”
Chubbena, your quote from the Sabbath thread makes me wonder, how do you even try to stay on the path if you never know you are saved? How could you ever be ready if you don’t find out until the last day?
I believe our faith is in the ability of Christ to finish the work he started in us. We do wrestle with the flesh; but he has overcome all and that is our hope. As long as we continue in faith in the race, the outcome is sure because of the Lord’s promises to us. For those enlightened, it is only those who willfully turn away from him who would be lost. As for those who cry Lord, Lord, remember he never knew them. They were never enlightened. They are not fallen from grace; but never had true grace at all.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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I want to address a point that Faith has been trying to stress about the lack of signs prior to Jesus' coming. I would have thought that all the things previously mentioned would have been enough to constitute signs. But if you need to see the word "signs" used in reference to these great events then lets look at Luke 21 where a similar account of the events of Matthew 24 is recorded.
Luke 21 10 ...Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Continuing on...
Luke 21 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Faith, whether you want to admit it or not there are signs that precede the second coming of Jesus. When we see Jesus coming in the clouds with glory that will not be a sign of his coming but, rather, his actual coming. You have a lot of Bible knowledge but sometimes you speak from your own personal experiences which have jaded you somewhat regarding anything the IC teaches. But you yourself said we should try everything and keep that which is good--admitting that the IC did/does have some truth mixed with their error. So let's allow for that much.
Now, what is the purpose of signs? To establish faith in the word of God. Faith comes by hearing but if they will not hear... well, can they have faith? So, first we must generate interest in the subject and then demonstrate from prophecies that the Word is reliable stating the past and foretelling the future. When that is established then conviction begins to take hold of a person as they hear and begin to believe the other things written in the Bible.
Noah taught and worked. Jesus taught and worked. We are to teach and work. The works that we do should show we believe in the soon coming of Jesus. If you have never asked yourself this question believe me that unbelievers ask it all the time of you. "If s/he is expecting Jesus to come any time, claiming to be ever ready, then why do they live like tomorrow is just another day?"
How should we live if we believe that Jesus could come at any moment for any of us? What I am saying is this. Do I say one thing with my mouth and another contrary thing with my life? If I am ready for Jesus to come tomorrow then what did I do with my life today? Was it a witness to other of my faith? Did I "preach" with my life that Jesus is coming? Or, did I "preach" peace and safety by going about as if nothing would change tomorrow?
So as Chubbena said, God is patient and long-suffering with us who profess to be his people and to know him. We are not awake if we are not watching for his return. When we are anxious for someone or something to come we watch for little tell-tale signs that the event is near. We hang out the window waiting for the car to come up the street. We watch the road signs to see how near we are. We look at the calendar or our watches counting days or minutes. We look for signs. Why can't we watch for signs of Jesus' coming? When the fig tree puts forth leaves we know that summer is nigh. But when the events that Jesus foretold come to pass we dismiss them as no evidence at all.
Now we would have to be pretty numb to what is going on around us not to admit that it looks like things are wrapping up pretty quickly for planet earth.
Twin Towers Earthquakes Tsunami New Orleans Flooding Aids Global warming same sex marriages Abortion
How many people must suffer before we wake up and see the signs?
Scripture likens the final events of this world to a pregnant woman. The pangs grow in intensity and frequency until the anticipated event arives. These are signs that the event is drawing closer. This is how it will be with Jesus' coming.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
"Take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."
"Give attention to yourselves, for fear that your hearts become over-full of the pleasures of food and wine, and the cares of this life, and that day may come on you suddenly, and take you as in a net."
quote: You have a lot of Bible knowledge but sometimes you speak from your own personal experiences which have jaded you somewhat regarding anything the IC teaches.
You seem to dislike the idea that I don’t agree with much of the IC. Remember, where you are. Most people here don’t agree with the IC. It is just me and the Holy Spirit and not an IC teaching me. Most of your views seem jaded by a certain IC and the woman they made their prophetess. Could you put aside IC doctrine for once and open the word for a study completely without IC commentary? You will be surprised!!
My point is those signs are ongoing signs throughout history. Even the disciples looked up for their redemption drew nigh. They were watching 2000 years ago! Just as we watch today. BTW, the stars, moon, etc. can be symbolic of governments, etc.
quote: How should we live if we believe that Jesus could come at any moment for any of us? What I am saying is this. Do I say one thing with my mouth and another contrary thing with my life? If I am ready for Jesus to come tomorrow then what did I do with my life today? Was it a witness to other of my faith? Did I "preach" with my life that Jesus is coming? Or, did I "preach" peace and safety by going about as if nothing would change tomorrow?
All good questions; but I don’t see what they have to do with the idea of the Anti-Christ and specific signs. The reason specific short term signs are not given is because Jesus expects us to be ready now! Call the people out of false religion and sin now! The popular teaching of the “left behind” series, etc. teach we can watch for the signs and then know we have 7 years or 3 ½ years, etc. NO! We can not watch the signs and say he’s coming tomorrow or in 5 years or in a hundred years. He may come today! We must be ready today! Just so the disciples were to be ready and they were watching. So explain how the signs can be just for today? Those things were on going signs showing the world getting worse and worse and the day getting nearer and nearer but they never insinuate how close the day is!!!!!!!!!
quote:Now we would have to be pretty numb to what is going on around us not to admit that it looks like things are wrapping up pretty quickly for planet earth.
Twin Towers Earthquakes Tsunami New Orleans Flooding Aids Global warming same sex marriages Abortion
People have said that for ever. What about 70 AD. ? The Jews surely thought the end was near. There has always been earthquakes, flooding, etc. what of the RC inquisition and all the death? What of the Nazis? What of the plagues, black death, etc? What of the many comets, etc. ?
I am not saying we are not to watch. We are to watch for Christ today!!!! I’m not saying I think he will come in 100 years or something. Personally, I do see the world getting worse and worse and don’t think it can last much longer. But the only sign I am watching for is Christ coming in the clouds at the last trumpet. It could be before I type this note! I am looking up just like the disciples did.
Regarding the questions in Matt. 24:
Matthew 24:3 (KJV) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
One thing most overlook is that there are three specific questions not one. The immediate signs are referring to question one ,”when shall these things be?” That question refers to the subject of the passage in verse 1-2. The temple being destroyed. In fact, most of Matt. 24 refers to the destruction in 70 AD. And has been twisted into a fictious scenario for best seller books.
As for the four points you mentioned as signs, those things have happened over and over many times in history and shall happen over and over until the end. They don’t prove how near. If we get too busy watching all these signs we get our eyes off the Lord above where they belong. Keep watching for him. Think on the heavenly and good things not on all these frightful events.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:Chubbena, your quote from the Sabbath thread makes me wonder, how do you even try to stay on the path if you never know you are saved? How could you ever be ready if you don’t find out until the last day?
I guess Exodus was an example for us Christians to learn. The Israelites were under bondage in Egypt (blind, deaf & crippled). The Holy One led them out when they were under no obligations (saved by grace). The Reed Sea (baptism). It's only until they were out that the Lord asked if they wanted Him to be their God (Jesus is Lord). It's only until they said yes that God gave the commandments (to love Him wholeheartedly and to love one another). He guided them through the desert with a pillar of fire and cloud(the guidance of the Spirit). The offerings (Jesus on the cross and our body as living sacrifice). The daily Manna (His word). The promised land (the new Jerusalem). Did all make it? Only two (narrow path). It's not saved until saved...
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Yes they are an example of what not to do. Only two made it because they were the only two who were faithful. The others turned their backs on God constantly and wanted to go back because they had no faith in the promises of where God was leading them. The narrow path is to keep the faith and continue to hope in the promises.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:The others turned their backs on God constantly and wanted to go back because they had no faith in the promises of where God was leading them.
They did have faith, that lip-faith, always listening always sinning never learning never putting the Word into practice. What a reflection of us present day Christians!
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Lip-faith? I've never heard it put that way. Lip-service is what scripture says. So in essence they had no real faith. They talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. It is like the church today. And like many in Christ's day too. But it gets worse and worse now.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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We were talking about signs of Jesus' return and Faith had written,
quote:"My point is those signs are ongoing signs throughout history. Even the disciples looked up for their redemption drew nigh. They were watching 2000 years ago! Just as we watch today."
Actually, contrary to what is commonly thought the disciples knew that certain events must come first before Jesus' return. While I am certain they watch more anxiously than we do today they did express in writing their knowledge that certain events, signs if I may, must occur which demonsrates that they too understood that the "Anti-christ" must come first before Jesus' return. The language employed here is telling us not to think the day of Christ is at hand until the man of sin is revealed. The appearance of "Anti-christ" could then be called a sign that they were to watch for to know that the coming was near.
2 Thes 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren...That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Now I am not saying we should neglect being always ready, as you put it, but rather that certain events will transpire to convict all that scripture is true, prophecy is right on time, and that we can believe in the promise of Jesus' return. That is the reason God reveals things to us before they happen. "Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he."
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2 Thes. 2:3-4 There was already a falling away beginning in the early church. With the incorporation of the RC church, I think the falling away was very apparent. That has continued until the present day as men continue to grow worse.
As for the “Anti-christ”, scripture makes it plain it is a spirit not a person. 1 John 4:3 Though many people are influenced by this spirit. If we examine what this spirit does we can see who he is.
1 John 2:22 (KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
First the antichrist spirit is a liar who denies the deity of Christ. Who is the biggest liar and the father of lies? John 8:44
Who is the son of perdition? We can figure it out by comparing what he does.
2 Thes. 2:3-4 (KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The man of perdition opposes God, exalts himself above God, sits in God’s temple (church) and shows himself he is God. Very prideful. Compare this list with the attributes of Satan. He says he will asend to heaven, exalt himself on a throne above the stars, sit in the congregation, and be like God. Isn’t it Satan who is the spirit of antichrist or son of perdition? I believe so regardless of the various men he fills with his evil spirit to persecute the church.
Isaiah 14:12-14 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
I find most also ignore this passage in Matt. 24 which explains that many things must come to pass but are not the signs of the end. For you see we have had many of these things for many many years. As I understand it there are wars and rumors of wars until the end. Just so earthquakes, famines, persecutions, tribulations, etc. until the end.
Matthew 24:6 (KJV) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I do see that Satan is loosed for a short season after the time of the gospel or gentiles. Rev. 20:3 Thus, persecution will increase for the church. However, we can’t specifically say when that is for the true church has always been persecuted.
How many times has the church been martyred over history? You may say, we aren’t persecuted in US. I must ask could that be because there is so few in the church it isn’t really an issue for Satan? If we examine the things that have happened in US, we see the church has been silenced. It is not PC to speak the word of God any longer; but a false gospel of tolerance. Thus, is the season of Satan future or are we in it now?
BTW, If you have to have a human antichrist, I think the positon of the Pope fits very well as he is called Father and decides for many, in churches claiming to be Christian, thus, placing himself up as God. Though I think it is more a spiritual battle and the temple occupied by the antichrist spirit is not a building but the actual hearts of men.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
In Genesis, chapter one, we learn that God created the sun, moon, and stars for signs as well as light, seasons, days, and years.
In Acts, chapter two, Peter quotes from the book of Joel. He says:
Acts 2 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
These are just some of the signs that precede the coming of Jesus. We know that scripture likens the coming to a woman giving birth. The pains grow more frequent and more intense as the time of delivery approaches. So the signs may also be more frequent and intense. Could it be that when they occur within one generation that this is the sign that that generation will see the coming?
Mark 13 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Now to assure us that this will happen, Jesus adds these words..."Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Then Jesus ties all of this together--the signs, the coming, the watching--by explaining that while we do not know the day nor hour we know the signs--those he just gave--and we are to watch and pray.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
To be sure, we cannot wait for the signs and expect to ready ourselves then. But if we are watching and praying then the signs should give us hope and increase our faith in the promise of his soon return.
"Behold! I come quickly!"
Now some will say that quickly in this context is over 2000 years. But for those who do not watch and pray his coming will be all too quickly.
If you recall our discussion about Noah's time, and the closing of probation when the doors of the ark closed, then this coming quickly could also refer to the close of probation happening without warning. Suddenly one realizes that time is over forever more. Jesus has set aside his Priestly garments of mediation and has clothed himself in the Kingly garments of revenge.
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Take your time, Jeff. I’ve been reading and studying more on this and may post more later .
Matthew 24:29 (KJV) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, an the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Are the signs mentioned in Matt. 24 and in Rev. about the sun, moon and stars literal signs in the actual heavens? To answer we must first answer, Are the sun, moon and stars always literal in the scriptures?
quote: In Genesis, chapter one, we learn that God created the sun, moon, and stars for signs as well as light, seasons, days, and years.
As well as describing the literal sun, moon and stars, Genesis also mentions the non literal version of them. In Gen. 37 the stars stand for Joseph’s brothers or the tribes of Israel.
Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
In Jude we see stars are the fallen angels.
Jude 1:13 (KJV) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
In Rev. 1, the stars represent angels.
Rev. 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Again in Rev. 12, we see the 12 tribes of Israel portrayed as stars.
Rev. 12:1 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Satan takes 1/3 of the angels called stars.
Rev. 12:4 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
In light of the above passages, we can not state that sun, moon or stars always mean the literal heavenly bodies.
There are many instances in the OT when the Lord came down and poured out his wrath upon sinful people. Often the events of judgment is portrayed as celestial happenings, with hail, smoke, clouds, shaking, darkening of sun, moon, etc. When the Lord visited the people for judgment, he is always portrayed this way to show his greatness.
If we notice in Matt. 24, it says “ the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” The powers. What type of powers? What type of powers were to be obedient to Joseph? What type of powers are being dealt with regarding the destruction of the temple?
I notice in Rev. 6, the stars fell as a fig tree casting untimely figs. This is the same wording used in Isa. 34 refering to the host of heaven falling. Thus, not literal stars; but powers or hosts of heaven.
Rev. 6:12-14 (KJV) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Isaiah 34:4 (KJV) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and [/b]as a falling fig from the fig tree. [/b]
Many believe the signs in the sky mentioned are actually referring to the end of the old covenant. The end of the old ceremonial religion.
The more I ponder this, the more I think it is so. However, if the moon really turns to blood some day, I’ll know something is about to happen.
Another reason I believe these are not literal is because they are to happen in that very generation. I know the destruction of the temple and the end of the old covenant happened in that generation.
With the mention of the sun and moon, as well as stars, we might be inclined to think it was very similar wording to that of Gen. 37 and Rev. 12. This would also follow the train of thought of the old tribes of Israel being cast off as the new branch of the gentiles is to be grafted in during the new covenant time.
To understand that one must realize that the end of the world doesn’t necessarily mean literally. Rather it can mean the end of an age.
Just some things to think on. Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Faith, Just one question - Jesus was answering His loved ones in Matthew 24. Why would He make it so difficult when many of them are not well educated? To the crowd, He uses parables, so that though seeing they don't see and though hearing, they do not hear or understand. But to the disciples, He's not like that. The reason, in my opinion, that Mat 24 is difficult is because we are not listening to Him at the same time, same place and same mind set as the disciples.
quote:The reason, in my opinion, that Mat 24 is difficult is because we are not listening to Him at the same time, same place and same mind set as the disciples.
I think so. Looking at it from their view point and time in history, it seems very clear that most if not all of that passage referred to the destruction of the temple and the end of the OC. I've just learned that God came down to the earth at other times for such destruction and vengence on the sinful. Could this passage be refering only to the Lord coming in judgment on the Jews in 70 AD and not related to the future judgment of all mankind?
I am looking into the day of the Lord, the last day, day of judgment, and the day of redemption. Are they all the same? So far I am sure the last day, day of redemption and day of final judgment would be the same. However, I remember seeing the term, day of the lord, in the OT referring to other instances of judgment on specific people at a specific time in history. Hmm. How we love to take everything and try to place it in our time and our future.
As to their education, I'm sure they were much more familiar with OT language and symbolism than we are today.
Just some thoughts, Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Faith, I don't know. Jesus wouldn't use symbolism in His private words with His loved ones - they probably didn't have the intelligence (not an insult) to think too deep. You are right about the language though. With the correct understanding of Greek language and how they were used back then, I don't think Revelations would be that hard to understand. I'm just too lazy to take Greek.
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I don't think that a better understanding of the Greek language is needful. I believe that we just need to depend more upon the Holy Spirit to give us understanding.
I believe that in Daniel the angel told him that it would be impossible for Daniel to understand at that time all that the prophesies foretold. I think the language was saying the words were sealed until the end time when knowledge would increase and then the books would be opened. In Revelation the angel hands John a little booked opened and ask him to eat it up. In the mouth it tasted good but in the belly it was bitter. Isn't this what we experience when we learn something exciting and we go to share it with our friends and they reject it and scorn us?
But I want to focus for a minute on something Faith said. She wrote, "Could this passage be refering only to the Lord coming in judgment on the Jews in 70 AD and not related to the future judgment of all mankind?"
Jesus said something very interesting related to the destruction of Jerusalem. He told them to pray that their flight was not in the winter nor on the Sabbath day. This was obviously some 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Why would he instruct them to pray that their flight was not on the Sabbath day? Was he intending that they should continue to cease from their labors on the Sabbath some 40 years after his death on the cross?
Regarding the signs of Jesus' coming. Faith seems to take the positiont that there are no signs prior to his coming such that we might know he is coming quickly. "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door." Mark 13 (NASV). But look at the signs that proceeded other events.
1. The flood had the sign of Noah builing the ark and preaching for 120 years. 2. Jesus' first coming was foretold in prophecy with many signs even a virgin birth.
Now as to the symbolic usage of sun, moon, and stars...well, there are instances when they certianly do seem to be symbolic. However, in this case it would appear we should interpret them more literal than symbolic since every other event is very literal.
1. False christs 2. Wars and rumors of wars 3. Destruction of temple 4. Flee to the mountains 5. Pray that you're not pregnant 6. Earthquakes 7. Heart attacks 8. and many others
To early Christians in America they saw 'The Dark Day' and the Leonode showers of 1833 as fulfilling these signs. How much closer then is his coming today than it was then?
If we had lived in that time we could not help but to have been impressed by the ominous events. With William Miller, the Baptist preacher, traveling the country lecturing on the end of the world in 1844 the spectacular meteor shower of 1833 was right on time to awaken the sleeping multitudes. I do not believe that Jesus will not also be just as merciful with us and give us sufficient signs to know that his coming is near, "even at the door." This is not welcome news to the fearful and unbelieving. It is a terrifying event. But to those who look for it, it is good news.
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Greek - just a tool, just a tool.... You know, deep inside I really hope that some of the scriptures are to be taken spiritually. If the synagogues are the churches and they scourge us because we are speaking the truth. If the father and brother are fellow Christians who don't put up with sound doctrines. If we are hated because of the true Christ we proclaim. If Israel is the church and we ran from one city to the other to escape persecution before becoming home churchers. If the man of sin & of perdition who sit in the temple of God are false leaders of the church - they are everywhere now. Not because they are heading for destruction, but that He is near. Sabbath - not many Christians are rejecting the Sabbath truth - They just modify it's meaning to suit their life style. What's better than a whole day's rest being replaced by 90 minutes or less worship and spend the rest doing what they want to do in the world and claim they are in Him 24/7?
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I need to clarify, I was not referring to a better understanding of Greek or Hebrew language. Rather, I was speaking of understanding the symbolic and metaphoric language used in the OT relating to God coming down in vengenence, judgment, etc. at various times throughout history. He used the same celestial wording many times. The disciples had heard many instances when the Lord came down to earth with many celestial happenings mentioned.
Jeff,
quote: Regarding the signs of Jesus' coming. Faith seems to take the positiont that there are no signs prior to his coming such that we might know he is coming quickly.
Not exactly. You see many of the signs given then happened then, immediately. Thus, if they happened just before his coming, then his coming must have already happened. The reason I wonder if this passage refers only to the coming of the Lord in judgment of the Jews and not the final judgment of mankind. Where is the exact place to divide what happened in 70 AD with what is still to happen. I don’t think we can make that distinction in this particular passage in Matt. Luke is the one I think that makes it even clearer that this event is speaking of the judgment on Jerusalem and doing away with the old system.
John Gill has a commentary that is pretty interesting on Matt. 24 which can be found by a good search engine if interested.
Why were they to hope their flight was not on the Sabbath? I’ve heard the city of Jerusalem was walled and had gates. The gates would be closed on the Sabbath as none were allowed to travel by the old Jewish system, making it hard to get out of town to flee.
I would like to ask what do these passages refer to?
Isaiah 1:1 (KJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Isaiah 1:4 (KJV) Ahsinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isaiah 1:9-10 (KJV) Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. [10] Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:19-20 (KJV) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: [20] But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1:21 (KJV) How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:28 (KJV) And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Isaiah 2:1-2 (KJV) The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. [2] And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:4-5 (KJV) And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.
Isaiah 2:12 (KJV) For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah 3:8 (KJV) For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the Lord, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
Isaiah 5:5 (KJV) And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Dear Faith, You seem to be drifting toward the Preterist point of view. Me too. I believe it significant that ; "the time was at hand", "shortly to come to pass", John's writings were "signified", He wrote to the 7 Churches of Asia, and that they shall "wail" because of him. Of course, there are Partial Preterists, Hyper Preterists, and probably one or two more in between. Their wiew does, to me, seem to be more reasonable, and fit scripture more.
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Lip-service is what scripture says. So in essence they had no real faith. They talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. It is like the church today. And like many in Christ's day too. But it gets worse and worse now.
