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Okay... I exaggerate. But I thought this was not only awesomeawesomeawesome BUT it completely jelled exactly what we've been finding in our experience.
We got to listen to and meet with the Church Planter I keep talking about last week. Since we heard him 3 years ago, when we were JUST STARTING, I got so much more out of it this time. More categories to file things in, now that I've detoxed so much of the "old way..." Also, surprisingly enough, he too has "quit church" and [ba-dum-pum} is doing what we do. What a cool confirmation!
So. Here it is:
Brian Hogan said, "I meet regularly with church planters who have questions and problems... After I hear them out, and pray for them, I started to see a pattern. It seemed like no matter what their problem was, the answer was one of two things:
1) You are making this more complicated than it needs to be or 2) You are not trusting the Holy Spirit in the Life of the Believer.
Say "Amen" somebody!
Blessings, Laurie Ann
(Be sure to buy Brian's Book, "There's a Sheep in my Bathtub" at Asteroidea.)
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Congradulations, looks like a real AH HA moment. I'm happy to see you excitement of discovery. It does seem that simple church is simple truth. I must admit I am not sure how to apply the second. Is not trust like belief, either you have it or you don't? Is there such a thing as a little trust, or half belief? There is a lot to be said for the attitude you just do what you do, then let it go. Rich
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As for "trusting the Lord..." the application means not trying to control people. He uses the example of Paul's farewell to the Elders of Ephesus: "I KNOW wolves will come..."
Paul recognized his own powerlessness... and the Spirit's adequacy, so he "committed them to the Lord".
An example would be: When people want to meet in their own home after they have been meeting with you, and you know they have "issues". Can you commit them to the Lord's care, bless them, and let them know you're there if they want to talk? Or, do you harangue them about how immature they are, how much they still have to learn, that they'll never make it without you...
"Control issues" fall under number two, and there is an evil spirit abroad driving believers to operate from fear (What if they start a CULT!) instead of Faith (I believe I've sowed good seed in your life and that "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it in Christ Jesus).
One manifestation of this is the drive toward "Partnership Covenants". Some serious problems there!
Blessings, LA
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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Welcome back Laurie Ann! I have just been thinking about why they went from "house to house" in The Church breaking bread and fellowshipping. I really think this prevented control issues!!! Talk about total loss of control, and a leap of faith! If we meet one week in my home, and the next week in another, and so on ...no one person ever is in control of what is going to go on. If correction is needed, then the group [The Church body] decides that and does that together.
I really think we do complicate things way too much. This way, The Lord is more likely to stay in control, and flakiness is more likely prevented. Simple huh?
If we are like-minded believers, there may be some differences, but we will all be following the same Person. I really do think it's that simple. Love, and then show it!
I can agree with Brian's conclusions about most church issues being overly complicated and failing to yield to the Spirit, too. Right on! Amen!
Might things be further simplified by dropping the whole church planter/church planting concept? That concept and terminology, besides lacking scriptural support, imo, seems to exalt another human being, the church planter. It also adds another level of complexity.
As I see it - possibly wrong - any Christian may lead another to the Saviour - then they and any others can meet "as the church" from then on - anytime, anywhere. Obviously, those who can and do help others along the journey are welcomed and appreciated.
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Amen big D! Whatever is not planted by the Lord will be uprooted. There is no such thing as a church planter apart from Christ. We can plant a seed through our testimony, but it is the Lord who causes that seed to take root. Away with the pride of men and their accomplishments. Soon, church planters will be available on e-bay along with pew-warmers. lol The ministry mindset is killing the church. Too many Simon the sorcerer types lusting after power, attention, and fame. Support my ministry! they tell you...(since the Holy Spirit isn't) Whatever happened to the simplicity which is in Christ? Where's the child-like love. We should rebuke anything that gets in the way of simple fellowship with the Lord and the brethren.
As I see it - possibly wrong - any Christian may lead another to the Saviour - then they and any others can meet "as the church" from then on - anytime, anywhere. Obviously, those who can and do help others along the journey are welcomed and appreciated.
We would both agree with you! In fact, the COOLEST thing about the course, "Perspectives on the World Christian Movement" (which is where I heard Hogan) is that it starts with the assumption that a believer knows NOTHING about the Kingdom, and in 15 weeks prepares them to pioneer "where the gospel is unknown".
While every one of the lessons could be a whole course of its own, they each do an overview enough that if you "have ears to hear" it can transform you from a pew-sitter to a {so-called} church planter.
There's a lot of debate about terminology among Kingdom Builders, and I've sat in on some of those discussions. It's tricky!
If Brian said, "I'm an apostle-discipler", in the same sense that Jesus, Peter and Paul would have been "coaches" to the young disciples they won to Jesus, that would sound arrogant. But we just don't have an equivalent in English that would not sound either 1. as if we are arrogant (how dare you call yourself an apostle) or 2) deceptive (Oh, you're a Christian. You are trying to trick me!)
Blessings, Laurie Ann
-------------------- You & Me and Jesus. We are enough!
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I am glad John came back in with his ministry mindset comment, I saw it before and wondered what you meant.( also glad to see you survived the hockey riots!)So what I see you refer to is "MY" ministry mindset, rather than true,or His ministry mindset. That seems fair.
This confusion(mine)seems part of the larger question,How do we take old, common terms that have been abused and misused, and apply them to new/original holy usage? Would we be better off with " Let's get together with the Christos, we can discip one another, and talk about the yrtsinim ( spelled backwards) that each is doing." Hey, I'm trying here. I think the good news is that much of society no longer knows the old church talk, so maybe it is only a problem "inhouse." The communication mixups we can sort out. The danger as John points out, in using the same words we may slip into the same mindset. Hey, how about we put a big H (C) before each word; H-church, H-ministry, H-apostle, H-discple, H-kingdom. I thought I was joking, but that doesn't look too bad. Rich
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Rich, all, do we just drop "old, common terms that have been abused and misused?" Can they be redeemed? Do we just write them off in the West as "hi-jacked" and forever gutted of real meaning.
Look at how the once-essential word "love" has fallen into abuse in just one lifetime. Young men daily use it to gain access to women whom they have no permanent regard for - the very opposite of the original intent.
When love has become synonymous with sex, is it any wonder that John 3:16 just confuses the modern mind?
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Thank you, my favorite word study word. Why my favorite, aside from the clues He left that it might be of some use? IT is one of the few words(Fruit of...,Gifts of...) that is clearly defined in its bible context. Faith? "see Abraham" That is not much help. Baptism? Apostle? Fagetaboutit.
Of course,church officials loved to make up words- always proper nouns, to replace the action of verbs and the discriptive clarity of adjectives. For instance, Spirit instead of God's breath, or essence, or life force. It seems that when you make up a word, you get the right to make up its definition. But LOVE! LOVE already has the most awesome definition the world has ever seen. Well, ok, 2 awesome definitions: His demonstration of it, and the letter that so clearly lists its many components. So how is it even possible to glibly say "love God? Sure,we do that. Each other? piece a cake!" Lets give them credit- they are very good at what they do. How often have you heard them say"The Greeks had 3 words for love." What if they said "the Greeks used 2 words for ADORATION, one a noun,one a verb. They had another word(phileo) that means I like you too." Sorry, letting my passion show. Or do I MEAN LOVE? Rich
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