The entire chapter of 1 Cor. 14 refers to order. Everybody wanted to speak a psalm, doctrine, tongue or revelation. Evidently they wanted to speak all at once, as they were admonished to "Let all things be done decently and in order." Verse 31 said ..."all may prophesy one by one, that all may learn..." Prophesy refers to speaking under divine inspiration. ALL, even women, can speak. ALL, even men hearing a woman, can learn.

According to the great commision, all disciples of Christ are to teach all nations all things Jesus commanded. Tabitha was a woman disciple.

According to Strong's, a preacher is a public crier of divine truth, especially the gospel---versus a pastor who is a shepherd over a flock. We have one Father, our heavenly Father. We have one Master, which also means teacher, Jesus Christ. We have no need of men to teach us because the Holy Spirit is given to teach us all things.

God uses many people, circumstances, things, etc. to speak to us. Jesus said the rocks could shout. Balam heard God through a four legged creature. If a man heard the word of God come from the mouth of a woman, could he hear? We are to prove all things we hear and keep those that are from God, where ever we hear them. It is the Holy Spirit that lets us hear and understand, thus our real teacher. Interestingly, minister means servant. We are all to follow Jesus' example as the greatest servant. Let us all serve one another and not quibble over earthly authority. After all there is neither male nor female in the kingdom of God.

Regarding I Cor.14 and I Tim. 2 and the subject of the silence of women in the church, I would like to make a suggestion for any readers here to consider.

The word EKKLESIA (church) "a called out company", is used in 3 ways in the N.T. regarding Christians.
(1)The church which is Christ's Body (Eph1:22,23) includes all regenerate people.
(2)The church of God I Cor.1:2 etc is ALWAYS God's church in a particular city or town (Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi etc.) It always includes all the saved people in that community! It is used in the plural as well in Galatians 1:2 because Galatia was a large province with many cities in it.
(3)The church in thy house Rom.16:5; Philemon 1;2 etc includes just those believers who gather in a particular home.

Now how does this relate to the passages that speak of the silence of women?
I Cor.14:23 is dealing with a specific kind of gathering "if the WHOLE CHURCH BE COME TOGETHER..." This is a large gathering including all the saints in the city. I Tim.2 &3 has to do with behaviour in the house of God which is THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD (3:14,15) REMEMBER, THE CHURCH OF gOD IS always the church in the city! So these two scriptures (I Cor.14:23-40 and I Tim.2) which speak of gender distinctions in audible participation in the church have to do with the whole church gathering of the church of God in any given town or city.

The silence of the women is only addressed one in I Cor.14, but males are told to be silent or to hold their peace (exactly the same Greek expression!) twice!
If there is no interpretter, the man who speaks in tongues is to be silent. If one prophet is speaking and something is revealed to another who sits by, the first is commanded to hold his peace! In I Tim.2 it is the (men)males who are to do the praying and the women (females) are to be silent.

But in house church gatherings there is no such gender distinction in audible ministry! See hebrews 10:24,25 and watch for the expression "one another". One another NEVER means just males! It indicates mutual and reciprocal ministry of saints to each other! I believe that this would be clearly seen if one would go through the N.T. and list and examine all the "one another" instructions and commands. Also the expressions "every man" (the generic term ANTHROPOS) AND "EVERY ONE". My understanding then, is that house church gatherings are participatory without any gender distinction in audible ministry except that men heads are to be uncovered while they pray ot prophesy and that women's heads are to be covered while they pray or prophesy ( ICor.11:1-16) But that in whole church gatherings of the saints in a city there is ONLY ONE SPEAKER AT A TIME SO THAT ALL MAY BE EDIFIED, AND THAT MALES ARE GIVEN THE RESPONSIBILITY BY GOD TO BE THE VOCAL SPEAKERS IN SUCH GATHERINGS.

I'm open to challenge and the teaching ministry of others without any partiality! I have learned an awful lot from dear sisters in Christ who have been real students of the Word!

Let us exhort one another daily on this forum as we see the day approaching!!

Thanks for your thought provoking response. Over the years, the Lord has shown me over & over that there is always something in scripture I overlook the first time or two in studying a subject. By the way, I agree the Greek words don't always mean husband or wife; but rely on content. I'll try to explain how I came to my conclusions & what else I discovered.

1 Cor.was written to the Church of God at Corinth because of various contentions, strive, divisions, sins, etc. of carnal Christians. The word for women, 1135 Strong's, means: a woman, (spec.) wife. Since they are to ask their husbands (435 individual man, husband) AT HOME, it seems obvious that wife & husband would be correct. I realize it could refer to another man as a father or brother; but not all women would have a man at home unless it was indeed her husband. Godly submission of a wife to a husband is a biblical theme, much like the Church's submission to Christ, which also points to this passage referring to husbands and wives.

Verse 23 states this was the whole church together. Verse 31 states that ALL may prophesy & ALL may learn, which is another biblical theme found through out scripture. Many women were prophetesses, teachers, workers for the church, disciples, one an apostle, etc. Thus to conclude that women can not speak in church contradicts the many examples of women speaking in public. While I understand that the Greek word for church is used to describe various groups of the church, large & small. I see no reason to make a distinction between a home church or a large gathering in these passages.

The subject at hand is the whole church was in disorder. You pointed out that the men were also told to be silent. However, that certainly doesn't mean they were to always be silent. The women were told to be silent and learn at home. Obviously, they could also learn from others at the public meeting, thus were they to always be silent & always learn at home? No. They were to help minimize the chaos occurring at this church by everybody talking at once. If they didn't ask questions in the meeting; but discussed later at home with their husbands, some of the excessive talking would be eliminated. The two verses admonishing the men to be silent also eliminated much disorder.

In 1 Tim. 2:1, the church was to pray for "all men". In verses 3-4, God would save "all men" & Jesus is the mediator for "all men". Strong's 444 is used & refers to humans in this passage. However in verses 8 & 12, Paul used 435 meaning: man, individual man, fellow, husband. Verse 8 would be individual men as the phrase "everywhere" is used. Verse 12 could be husband as "the man" is used. "The" seems to point to a specific man, not all men in general, leading to agreement with the theme of a woman, as the weaker vessel, submitting to her husband.

Women in verse 9 & 10 explain how women should dress & act. 1135 is the word used which means: woman, spec. a wife, wife. Seems like good advice for all women. Verse 11-12 uses 1135 again; but includes the little words "the" and "a" suggesting a specific woman. Wife seemed to fit this context. Upon re-examining the passages, I realized the women in verse 11-12 were not told to submit to anyone. In noting the meaning of "ursurp authority", 831 means to act of oneself, dominate, ursurp authority. Thus these women were not to dominate. Scripture exhorts neither men nor women to dominate the other; but to submit to one another. Submission (quite different from being dominated or dominating) is not the issue--dominating is.

Here is something I originally missed. Paul wrote chapter 1 to Timothy because some had "swerved" & "turned aside into vain jangling; desiring to be teachers..."1 Tim. 1:6-7). I thought of today's TV preachers & how some wives have taken over their ministries. (Not that we are to have men or women preachers as the IC thinks of them.) I remembered the Ephesians & how they worshipped the great goddess Diana. I also thought of the new Sophia goddess worship that some denominations are embracing today. As I understand goddess worship, the women are dominate over men. It really doesn't matter if this passage is talking about the married or not. There was some form of domination by women over men with regard to false teachings. Paul was addressing this. I also noticed that it was Paul who told these specific women not to teach; not a command from God!

God is good & always finishes what he starts. I accidentally hit on a different site than I meant to click. There was a new article I hadn't seen by Frank Viola on this very subject. It explains this issue in more detail & gives many wonderful examples of the women who did speak in the churches. He also explains the domination as the reason only men were told to pray. He also points out one of my favorite rules for interpreting scripture. NEVER make a doctrine on one or two verses that contradict the rest. I learned about two women I hadn't seen before. I recommend this article to all interested in this subject. You can read at: www.ptmin.org.women.htm

A study of various words like preacher, pastor, teach, teacher, minister, prophet, propetess, head, leader, submit, etc. gives much insight into this issue also. You are correct that we are to "one another". My intended point was that women can minister in the church. God can use all to get his word across. However, it is still the Holy Spirit that touches our heart to do the actual teaching. How else can we discern error? Thanks again for your comments causing me to re-examine the issue in more detail. I learned several things. Let us keep on exhorting one another to dig deep into the word & draw closer to our Lord.

Have you noticed that all the instructions of I Cor.14:23-40 are addressed to males??? Even the instructions relative to women's silence in the gathering of the whole church is addressed to men and not to women! "Let your women keep silence in the churches." It is NOT "Let YOU women keep silence in the churches!" I believe some of the greatest difficulties in churches have arisen because MEN WILL NOT GET OFF THEIR BACKSIDES AND DO WHAT GOD HAS CALLED THEM TO DO!

All 12 or 13 instructions of I Cor.14;23-40 are addressed to "brethren" which are always males and the opposite of "sisters". So when Paul wrote "that ALL may prophesy..." he was not including women as giving prophecies in the whole church gathering, but rather that ALL THE BRETHREN had as much opportunity to be among the speakers as any other man! ( the 2 0r 3 tongues speakers, the interpretter of tongues, the 2 or 3 prophets, the teachers who would bring doctrine, the singers who would bring a psalm etc.) This meeting is not to be a free-for-all even for men!

But, dear sister, I don't think you addressed the issue which is specific (It is a shame for women to speak in the church (whole church gathering). The word speak LALEO ios used over 20 times in I Cor.14 alone and never means "chattering" or any other "chaotic speaking". It simply means "to speak"!

I believe that the problem which has arisen from this passage has been a result of MEN not studying their Bibles and using it to CONTROL women in any sort of church meeting, even though that meeting is NOT A WHOLE CHURCH GATHERING as the text specifies! The truth will always set MEN AND WOMEN FREE FROM THE BONDAGE OF FALSE DOCTRINES!

A brother in our house church just recently pointed out to me that REDEMPTION involves a lot more than deliverance from the bondage of sin! We are also redeemed by the blood of Christ FROM OUR VAIN CONVERSATION (MANNER OF LIFE)RECEIVED BY TRADITION FROM OUR FATHERS! I Peter 1:18 Oh, how much more we need to allow the blood of Christ, and the Word of Christ to deliver us from traditional ways and practices derived from men and not from God!

I never knew about women and teaching in churches. I just knew that my old Pastor wrote a letter to a women minister telling her that it was not right. Then so he says, God convicted him and he wrote a letter off apology to her. Then another brother shared that no women should absolutly talk during the service. But I couldn't figure out why, eventhough he share the scriptures. Why would he not accept our input, and why would only our husbands hear from us at home ? Then I found a good article from
Frank Viola www.ptmin.org/women.htm

He also write on home churches. He talks about Head Coverings, the Silence, a entensive list on women in the Bible and their roles, wives submitting to their husbands. He shares an aweful lot of scriptures and reasons with time. ( Like the taditions in those days).

I would encourage every women to read it. Personaly I would not teach where a man teaches, but would hold a women's bible study. I do beleive in a head covering ( convictions) , Frank shows a good debate, as well as being silent when needed.

If the apostles had held to your conjectures they would have just written a few sentences rather than entire volumes.

The fact of the matter is that we, of ourselves, do not know how to love. (One modern prophet of "All we need is love," died with 250 million dollars in his account, for example. John Lennon)

After a very lengthy section about church meeting protocols (including some women's issues) Paul wrote: 1 Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, OR SPIRITUAL, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Whatever God commands is always loving. There is no disharmony between what is written and was is loving and spiritual.

2 Cor. 3:6f from Clark's Commentary on "spirit and letter."

Verse 6. Who hath made us able ministers] This is a more formal answer to the question, Who is sufficient for these things? prov tauta tiv ikanov; #1Co 2:16|. God, says the apostle, has made us able ministers; ikanwsen hmav diakonouv, he has made us sufficient for these things; for the reader will observe that he uses the same word in both places. We apostles execute, under the Divine influence, what God himself has devised. We are ministers of the new covenant; of this new dispensation of truth, light, and life, by Christ Jesus; a system which not only proves itself to have come from God, but necessarily implies that God himself by his own Spirit is a continual agent in it, ever bringing its mighty purposes to pass. On the words kainh diayhkh, new covenant, see the PREFACE to the gospel of St. Matthew.

Not of the letter, but of the Spirit-- The apostle does not mean here, as some have imagined, that he states himself to be a minister of the New Testament, in opposition to the Old; and that it is the Old Testament that kills, and the New that gives life; but that the New Testament gives the proper meaning of the Old; for the old covenant had its letter and its spirit, its literal and its spiritual meaning. The law was founded on the very supposition of the Gospel; and all its sacrifices, types, and ceremonies refer to the Gospel. The Jews rested in the letter, which not only afforded no means of life, but killed, by condemning every transgressor to death. They did not look at the spirit; did not endeavour to find out the spiritual meaning; and therefore they rejected Christ, who was the end of the law for justification; and so for redemption from death to every one that believes. The new covenant set all these spiritual things at once before their eyes, and showed them the end, object, and design of the law; and thus the apostles who preached it were ministers of that Spirit which gives life.

EVERY INSTITUTION HAS ITS LETTER AS WELL AS ITS SPIRIT, as every word must refer to something of which it is the sign or significator. The Gospel has both its letter and its spirit; and multitudes of professing Christians, by resting in the LETTER, receive not the life which it is calculated to impart. Water, in baptism, is the letter that points out the purification of the soul; they who rest in this letter are without this purification; and dying in that state they die eternally. Bread and wine in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, are the letter; the atoning efficacy of the death of Jesus, and the grace communicated by this to the soul of a believer, are the spirit. Multitudes rest in this letter, simply receiving these symbols, without reference to the atonement, or to their guilt; and thus lose the benefit of the atonement and the salvation of their souls. The whole Christian life is comprehended by our Lord under the letter, Follow me. Does not any one see that a man, taking up this letter only, and following Christ through Judea, Galilee, Samaria, &c., to the city, temple, villages, seacoast, mountains, &c., fulfilled no part of the spirit; and might, with all this following, lose his soul? Whereas the SPIRIT, viz. receive my doctrine, believe my sayings, look by faith for the fulfilment of my promises, imitate my example, would necessarily lead him to life eternal. It may be safely asserted that the Jews, in no period of their history, ever rested more in the letter of their law than the vast majority of Christians are doing in the letter of the Gospel. Unto multitudes of Christians Christ may truly say: Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life.

End quote.

A lot of profitable dialogue has been circumvented by those who want to parade their version of love, spirituality, and freedom as if that ends every discussion in their favor. Furthermore, if everything was reduced to "the spirit without the letter" no one any where could do it wrong. This appropach has been atttepted long ago:

Jer. 23:25-26 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

The fix? Same then as now:

Isa. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Peace,

David Anderson

Then why are we writing volumes defending our beliefs based on what they wrote? You see, you cannot have it both ways. Try as you might, God's word is "hidden" until the holy Spirit gives us the ability to see it.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

You wrote:
After a very lengthy section about church meeting protocols (including some women's issues) Paul wrote: 1 Cor. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, OR SPIRITUAL, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The protocol was given in order to establish order. The only command of the Lord is to love one another. As you may recall from another thread Paul said "as saith the law," in dealing with the issue of questions that women would be able to ask in a meeting. It was shameful for women to speak out in a meeting in ancient Rome and the word "nomos" also can take the meaning "precept" or "custom of the land." Since the Bible also says we are under "grace" not "law" you cannot read this out of context of the whole of the Bible. That is what you are doing and again the motive is self-serving.

There was much confusion in the early church and Paul felt a need to bring order to it, and in doing so saw a need to be sensitive to the laws of the land. That is what this passage is really about, and again I will reiterate man will always seek to establish a "man-centered" church from the Bible. I ask you in all seriousness, when it says we all should be teachers in Hebrews, is this just speaking to men? Are the verses in 1 Pet. 5 just for men's edification? Or does the Bible teach we are all the same in Christ? (Gal. 3:28). You are trying to take a passage that is particular to the situation in Corinth and apply it across the board not only to all of the Bible (which you cannot validly do), but also to today!

The word of God needs to be read in its entirety, through our Spirit. We are to live by the Spirit of the written word, not by the letter (2 Cor. 3:3). It is only through the Spirit you understand what they needed to get the church started. Do you believe people are still being healed like they were in the early church? Do you believe we still go around speaking in tongues? Brother, you need to rethink your position and stop living in the past. Do not quench the holy Spirit in you but allow Him to speak to you today for how to go about loving the members of the church today. You claim to be sticking to the letter, but when presented with it in its entirety, your arguments fall apart.

EVERY INSTITUTION HAS ITS LETTER AS WELL AS ITS SPIRIT, as every word must refer to something of which it is the sign or significator.

I agree that the letters are inspired and I have said as much. However, I also said we are given spiritual eyes to read them and spiritual minds to understand them. But that is not the issue between us. Rather, you are failing to read "all" of the word and speak from the whole of it. That is why I called you on not living by the Spirit and just sticking to the letters written in ink. When you live by the Spirit you let the Spirit illumine the whole of Scripture as to its symbolic meaning, and you have adequately pointed this out concerning Jesus being the Messiah of the OT types and shadows. No problem. The problem again is your sticking to the letter of particular passages and not taking the whole of Scripture into account in your analysis of the role of women in the church.

True, the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: BUT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG UNTO US AND TO OUR CHILDREN FOR EVER.

Look at all the times you have attempted and failed using this strategy. Do you think someone could not apply the same thing to all your statements???? Why would anyone want to discuss anything with you? All the conversations end the same way. Why are your opinions so much more revealed or spiritual than anyone else's?????

Nothing, btw, which I wrote can be interpreted to promote "man's church." Please get the facts before you appear on these forums again. Thank you.

David Anderson

It seems to me that when you come across a text that you don't like, you say it is to be understood in the spirit and not the letter. (i.e It doesn't mean what it actually says.)

But then you quote other scripture to refute ideas you don't like and expect us to accept those scriptures "by the letter" i.e. for just what they say! My question is this: Who gets to decide which scripture means exactly what it says and which do not?

I prefer to allow the Holy Spirit who inspired all of scripture to be trusted to mean what He says in ALL cases.

Re. Rev 4:4, I'm not even sure where you ever referred to this text in previous posts. What was the issue you refer to?

Re. I Peter 5:1-4, Peter is addressing elders among the saints and scripture requires that the elders which take oversight of the flock be males. (I Tim.3) Are you aware of any women in the new covenant scriptures who were elders of churches?

I Peter 5:5-10 addresses the younger believers and all the believers without respect for any other distinction.

As far as I Peter 4:10 and 11 is concerned, it is very clear that all believers (men and women) have received spiritual gifts by which they are to minister tomother saints. So all are ministers according to their God-given gifts.

Contrary to what you claim relative to Gal.3:28, it does NOT say that we are all "the same" in Christ!
It does say, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all ONE (NOT THE SAME!) in Christ Jesus. In the world, outside of Christ nationality, gender and social status are regarded as issues over which to separate. But in Christ we are united! This does NOT mean that in Christ Jews cease to be Jews, Greeks cease to be Greeks, bondmen ceased to be bondmen, freemen ceased to be freemen, men cease to be men and women cease to be women! But it DOES mean that Jews and Greeks, bondmen and freemen, men and women have the same access to God, that none are to be given preferential treatment over the other, and that none are to look down on and spurn the others. But the unity that we have in Christ does not make us all THE SAME! It does not mean that we are all to fulfil the same roles, that we are all to exercise the same gifts.

Gal.3:28 does not nullify I Cor.14:34,35; it does not nullify I Cor.11:1-16; it does not nullify ITim.2:8-14; it does not nullify I Tim.3:2; it does not nullify I Tim 5:1,2 etc. In Christ Jews and Greeks are one, but have different responisbilities. In Christ bondmen and freemen are one, but they have different responsibilities. So too, in Christ men and women are one but they have different responsibilities. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, THANK GOD FOR THAT!!!

Re. believers having the responsibility to be teachers (Hebrews 5:12; Col.3:16; II Tim.2:24; Titus 2:4 etc) I don't think anyone has ever disputed this here, so I'm not sure what your point is.

You wrote:
"It seems to me that when you come across a text that you don't like, you say it is to be understood in the spirit and not the letter. (i.e It doesn't mean what it actually says.)"

Specific examples please??? I have presented both context and other Scripture to back up my ideas. You on the other hand have presented a lopsided view of context because of your lack of cross-referencing it to other parts of the Bible. This is not good hermeneutical practice, and you should know this.

You further wrote:
"But then you quote other scripture to refute ideas you don't like and expect us to accept those scriptures "by the letter" i.e. for just what they say! My question is this: Who gets to decide which scripture means exactly what it says and which do not?"

I am not using other Scripture by the letter, but have used it to back up the meaning of Scripture that is not clear from context. Also, I have used to it ask others what they thought about it, but get nothing back but comments that show a degree of immaturity.

You wrote:
Re. Rev 4:4, I'm not even sure where you ever referred to this text in previous posts. What was the issue you refer to?

I was referring this to David, but since you asked it was in reference to us becoming elders when we have made our calling and election sure at the perfecting of our faith (James 1:12; 1 Pet. 5:10).

You wrote:
"I Peter 5:1-4, Peter is addressing elders among the saints and scripture requires that the elders which take oversight of the flock be males. (I Tim.3) Are you aware of any women in the new covenant scriptures who were elders of churches?"

I have asked David and now I will ask you: 1 Pet. 5ff is about the elders and about the younger men, however, does this just pertain to men? Or does Satan prowl about seeking to destroy all of God's chosen, including women? In cross referencing this to other Scripture the conclusion seems unavoidable that this is to be applied to everyone in the same way that Hebrews 5:12 says we should all be teachers by now, but we may only do this if God permits (Heb. 6:3). Also Revelation 4:4 says that the "elders" are those who have gold crowns and white garments and elsewhere in Revelation this refers to the elect of God. We get the gold crown at the perfection of our faith. This will happen to all of God's elect after Satan prowls around trying them, in order to be strengthened and perfected by God.

You wrote:
I Peter 5:5-10 addresses the younger believers and all the believers without respect for any other distinction.

Now isn't that interesting how you divide 1 Pet 5 up into little segments that really have nothing to do with each other. I do not buy into your slicing through the context this way to suit your purposes and that is why I cross-reference everything.

You wrote:
"This does NOT mean that in Christ Jews cease to be Jews, Greeks cease to be Greeks, bondmen ceased to be bondmen, freemen ceased to be freemen, men cease to be men and women cease to be women! But it DOES mean that Jews and Greeks, bondmen and freemen, men and women have the same access to God, that none are to be given preferential treatment over the other, and that none are to look down on and spurn the others. But the unity that we have in Christ does not make us all THE SAME! It does not mean that we are all to fulfil the same roles, that we are all to exercise the same gifts."

The Bible also says the holy Spirit determines the gifts, and gives to each one according to His desire. Again, you fail in your assessment of our gifts that are according to the letter of some other Scripture as that conflicts with the holy Spirit dispensing them as He pleases. At the time the Bible was written the holy Spirit dispensed the gifts and did so according to the laws of the land, among other reasons. God is sovereign over the laws and the rulers and also the gifts he gives to men and women. Now in our society it is permitted for women to teach, etc., so if God so desires He will allow for this in dispensing gifts. I would not presume to know fully His mind on this today, but we all have access to Bibles and the holy Spirit and the mind of Christ. So, things are a tad bit different in today's world as opposed to what they did in Ephesus (re: Timothy).

You wrote:
"Gal.3:28 does not nullify I Cor.14:34,35; it does not nullify I Cor.11:1-16; it does not nullify ITim.2:8-14; it does not nullify I Tim.3:2; it does not nullify I Tim 5:1,2 etc. In Christ Jews and Greeks are one, but have different responisbilities. In Christ bondmen and freemen are one, but they have different responsibilities. So too, in Christ men and women are one but they have different responsibilities. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, THANK GOD FOR THAT!!!"

I have shown you are in error in the context of 1 Cor. 14. I am not sure then why you assume you are correct about it but the point is the overarching principle we are all partakers of the age to come where we will not be given in marriage but will be like the angels in heaven. In other words, we are all the same in Christ, and all have the mind of Christ. Yes, we live in our mortal bodies, but Christ is Christ, there is no difference. You see, you cannot have it both ways. You chose Scripture of 1 Timothy to say this is written in concrete AS IF that particular text is more sacrosanct than the texts I have shown you. Also you ignore the fact Timothy was in Ephesus and Paul was dealing with very specific problems there. Obviously, the Bible cannot contradict itself, and we all receive the perfection of our faith the same way and we are all ministers of reconciliation at that point (2 Cor. 5:19; Col 2:2-3).

Col 2:2-3
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

I am speaking about the full assurance of understanding that comes at the perfecting of our faith. We who have understanding have the mind of Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of "wisdom and knowledge." Now that is the same for a man and a woman in Christ. You are trying to nullify this Scripture by citing 1 Timothy. You cannot do this so we need to understand 1 Timothy as limited to a particular area and time.

You wrote:
"Re. believers having the responsibility to be teachers (Hebrews 5:12; Col.3:16; II Tim.2:24; Titus 2:4 etc) I don't think anyone has ever disputed this here, so I'm not sure what your point is."

We can only become teachers if God permits and that is at our full assurance (see references above.)

DiAnne, thank you much for moving from your previous "It's a hidden secret which only I understand" to "a cross-referencing" method of interpretation. Problem is, you are making cross-references and inferences which are little more than private, one-owner opinions.

If the elders of Revelation 4 were "all the elect," mightn't someone other than you have noticed it? I didn't respond to this item sooner because I thought it was a typo.

>I was referring this to David, but since you asked it was in reference to
>us becoming elders when we have made our calling and election sure at the
>perfecting of our faith (James 1:12; 1 Pet. 5:10).

Can you cite someone other than DiAnne who makes a "becoming elders" association via these verses, James 1:12; 1 Pet. 5:10? A five year old may seriously endeavor to make his calling and election sure. That automatically makes him or her an elder of the church, ordained to oversee the assembly???????

The fact that God would call upon men to teach does not mean that women - older or younger - cannot and should not. All elders should be teachers but all teachers are not the elders of the church. Can we please move on... The topic here is "Women who Serve" and "All may be used." That'll work.

Why don't we familiarize ourselves with the gender rules of Greek nouns rather than reading our own agenda into these gender-specific words? If we are so keen on the legitimacy of "teachers" why not spend some time in the library or invest in some basic study tools? Filter all things through prayer, along the way.

May the Lord teach us all that all may become teachers. As a result, all will be taught of God, just as promised.

David Anderson

Matthew 19:26
And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

In all seriousness, in order to make our calling and election sure it depends on both God's will and our own ability to respond to the gospel in faith through acts of faith. I am not saying a five-year-old could not do this, but it is not very probable. Also a five-year-old would have a difficult time with the concepts of the Bible that deepen our trust in Christ, so you be the judge... I will just say that a 12-year old in the OT was at the age where he was responsible for his own decisions and keeping the law of God, and I do not believe human nature has changed very much over the course of history, so I doubt a five-year old would be in a possition to judge his/her acts.

You wrote:
Why don't we familiarize ourselves with the gender rules of Greek nouns rather than reading our own agenda into these gender-specific words? If we are so keen on the legitimacy of "teachers" why not spend some time in the library or invest in some basic study tools? Filter all things through prayer, along the way.

I saw this on another message board, but it really hit home. This is also where I have come in my Spiritual journey:

"As far as the Bible using terms to describe 'clergy', we need to understand that much has been messed up by translators. Go to the original language and you will not find a clergy/laity in the NT church. You WILL find that King James himself had an adgenda!

Only God is infallible and inerrent. We cannot make the Bible into a god. Only God is God. Man has incorrectly translated the Bible in many places, and it is up to us to trust the Holy Spirit to guide us on what He is saying. Our trust is not in what the Bible says, but in HIM. So many believers say of a certain teaching: 'Well, it's all scripture.' Everyone says that! We can sincerely or insincerely make the Bible say whatever we want. In my spiritual journey, I have to throw out more doctrine than I ever thought possible as God has revealed HIMSELF to me. It's all about HIM, not about doctrine or doing things right. Jesus doesn't have truth he IS Truth.

Please don't misunderstand me and think that I don't read and study my Bible. My point, though, is that Christians worship the Bible instead of God. The Bible is simply a tool; it is not God.

Here's study I did on the whole question of 'leadership' in the body of Christ: www.digitex.net/koinonia
If you are looking for a radical departure from religion and want to embrace Jesus, come visit us!!"

I suppose this thread has run it's course - the last word was yours. (For now, that is.) I will close the thread lest it grow too large and go further off topic. You make many fine points which deserve consideration under different headings. Feel free to start new threads at any time, of course. I'll check out the site you just mentioned, too.

The letter vs. spirit comparison is an important one, true. I've begun a new thread concerning it and hope you will participate, if and when you are able.. It is at:

http://www.homechurch.org/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000019.html

May the joy of the Lord be your strength, sister. I know He is at work in your mind and spirit. Don't become a stranger in these parts, ya hear?

ybiC,
David Anderson