posted
I want to talk for a moment about love, true love. Does the world (Christians included) know what true love is?
(First let me say that I am really feeling convicted about posting so much lately. If you look at the stats I am the top poster on this forum. Not something I am bragging about. I bring it up to make my point. Though I am the top poster, with currently 888 posts, I have also been posting here since 2001 under this user name and a few years prior as an unregistered visitor. If you do the math that equates to 1 post every three days. I know, it doesn't seem like it a present. But to put things in perspective, look at your stats and compute the frequency of your posts. Then you may have pity on me.
It may well be that in the near future I will be absent from this forum for a spell. It does go in spurts, with this present spurt offering many opportunities to participate in some challenging and interesting posts.
With that said, please allow me to post, yet another!)
Where on Earth Is True Love?
Perhaps the movie "The Princes Bride" got it right? When ask to do something by the maiden the servant always replied, "As you wish." Or, maybe the slogan of "Love Story" is what love is all about. "Love means never having to say your sorry."
However you view love, there are definitely some right and wrong views of what true love truly is. If we get our definition from Folk music we might view love as family. If from Easy-Listening, we might view love as infatuation or attraction. If from Rock-n-Roll we might define love more in line with lust. If from Grunge or Punk, we might consider love self-gratification possibly involving some degree of pain. If from County Music, it would most likely involve heartbreak. If from Advertisement, love is probably something you crave or covet, especially inanimate objects.
Love, it is said, exists between a person and...
a. things such as objects or food b. animals c. people, or person d. gods, or God
Perhaps the most misunderstood thing about love, true love, is that in its pure form it involves sexual intimacy. But is sex love?
Sex between people and animals is bestiality.
Sex between two men is sodomy (though now it is called homosexuality and those who practice it are called 'gay' presenting it in a more pleasant light).
Sex between a man and a woman is just that, sex. It isn't truly love (though hopefully one would not engage in it with someone they didn't truly love).
So what is love, true love?
Scripture says that love "seeks not its own." Therefore, Biblical love, which for the Christian defines true love, does not involve self-gratification. Ok, but what is love?
Romans 13 and Galatians 5 tells us that "love works no ill to its neighbor." And, "love fulfills the law." At least in Romans 13 the law seems to be a reference to the Ten Commandments. And, certainly, if love works no ill then love, true love, would fulfill that law in that it would not do any of those things prohibited by that law. But is the absence of 'ill' the true meaning of love? Does love consist, then, it not doing? The answer, as we shall see, is no. While a person who breaks that law does not in truth love others, the fact that love fulfills that law does not therein define love. It does tell us what love is not and thereby helps us to discern whether or not we are abiding in true love.
So we ask again. What is true love?
Well, let's review what we have learned so far.
1. If fulfills the law 2. It seeks not its own 3. It is experienced by something capable of the emotion
Numbers 1 and 2 are really the same, are they not? If someone seeks their own then they will tend to disregard the rights and feelings of others. They will place their own objectives, needs, desires, above that of others.
So we ask for the last time. What is love?
Since we have discovered in a small way what love is not, we are now prepared to discover what love is. Since it fulfills the law then it must not hate, lie, steal, covet, etc. Since it seeks not its own, it must seek the good of others.
Love Defined
Perhaps the clearest word picture of true love between a man and a woman is found in the book of Proverbs 31. There we find a virtuous woman who spends her time and energies being a blessing to her family. She takes great measures to care for them that they are both clothed and fed, not meagerly, but with the finest materials and sustenance. She spends her days wisely using the resources at her disposal to provide for her family.
While her husband praises her I don't find any mention of sexual intimacy in the context other than she has a family. Do we then conclude that sex has nothing to do with love? No, we have the witness of the Songs of Solomon, and the co-joining of a man and a woman by God with the express commission to populate the earth. But is this intimacy love, or is it simply a bond between a man and a woman who already love each other?
Though many people feel they have a handle on what true love is there is still a widespread view that reduces love to weak sentimentalism-- a mental or emotional feeling or regard for someone or something.
It is said that a man gives love to get sex and a woman gives sex to get love. But what have the two to do with each other? Love is not about what we get for ourselves but rather what we give to others. It isn't even about what we get in return. It is about what we give unconditionally.
God's love is commended to us in this, that while we were still His enemies, Christ died for us. (Romans 5). And, God's blessing, evidences of His love, are not restricted to those who love Him, but He causes the rain and sun to fall upon both the godly and the ungodly.
Stop and think about this. In nature we have evidence of God's love for mankind. Do all people have the ability to see, hear, smell, taste, and feel of nature? Or, is it reserved only for those who love and obey God? The answer is an obvious one. God extends His love to everyone. As we have learned earlier, He extended the greatest token of His love to us, to everyone really, while we were yet enemies of His. We were at war with the principles of His kingdom and yet He gave His only Son to die that we might have life. This is the kind of love that we are to have for one another.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
Stop and think about what this means. Does this mean that we are to literally die for those we love? Well, some may truly find an occasion where they could exchange their life for another's death. But that would probably be rare. So for most people, I would say that this does not mean we are to literally give up the Ghost. Nor would I necessarily list it as a requirement even if the opportunity arose. It would really depend upon the circumstances, but not the person in need.
What then could it mean? Let's ponder that for a brief moment and consider this very well known story. A husband sells his favorite watch to buy a special hairbrush for his wife's beautiful, long, hair. The wife, about the same time, cuts her hair and sells it to buy a chain for her husband's handsome watch. Then they come together to exchange gifts. Each one has sacrificed something dear to them in order that they might fulfill the needs of the other.
The tale of Romeo and Juliet attempts to better this example with their forbidden love story. But while their sacrifice involves death it is an irrational death in that it is more self-serving than of benefit to the other. In taking their lives they are expressing self-pity in a grandiose way. They are attempting to say that their love is so great that life is meaningless without the other. Since they cannot bear the pain it is easier for them to take their life than to live on. It appeals to our fickle emotions but it is still irrational love. Rational love would still find plenty of objects on which to bestow true love and would tend to that business instead of wallowing in self-pity and sentimentalism. Consider the case of David when he lost his boy child.
Do you see my point? The gospel story is about Jesus Christ giving His life in exchange for our death. He died that we might live. Had Romeo lost his life in some heroic effort to save his beloved's life then it would have been a noble, virtuous love story. But what we have been left with is a tangled web of suspense which trifles with our emotions. Nuf said!
So then, to summarize, love seeks the good of others and does not seek its own. It does not consist of weak sentimentalism but is grounded in deed and action for the good of others. It is not consumed with what I want and how I feel but rather with the needs of others and their feelings. True love is not concerned with self but is consumed with the thought of others.
posted
BTW, It is my belief that a woman's greatest ministry is to her family. Scripture admonishes younger women to love their husbands and their children and to be keepers at home. The term 'keepers at home' entails all of the following.
1. domestically inclined 2. good housekeepers 3. staying home 4. guarding the home and its occupants from dangers and want
So many women envision themselves involved in some grandiose mission outside the home. This is pride. When they do not attend to those in their immediate care then they are neglecting one duty to take up another. It is apparent they despise the first duty because it is viewed with contempt and seek the second because it offers a sense of worth, praise, honor, and glory of self.
The position of the housewife, the mother, is portrayed as lowly, unattractive, and unimportant. Society has burdened her with this nonsense. A little thought would soon open the eyes to the importance of this work. There is nothing more important than the work of a wife and mother. Everything that is outside the home depends upon the work inside the home. The whole fabric of society, our economy, our nation, rests upon the shoulders of the wife and mother. There is no job more important than hers.
Don't let anyone hold her worth in contempt. Especially not her husband and children. We may do her great disservice by not recognizing her worth and praising her for it. We may also show our contempt by not respecting her rules, by careless actions that increase her burden, or by not placing the proper importance upon her work.
We degrade her work when we do not provide the tools necessary for her to perform her work efficiently and thoroughly or by interfering with her work. We deny her necessary tools when we neglect to allocate resources for such things as time-saving devices which would be of great relief to her. We especially show our disrespect in this regard when instead of replacing a worn-out washer we buy some new this or that of little significance to the operation of the household but of seemingly great importance to us. Perhaps a big screen TV so we can watch the game. Or fancy hubcaps for the car or truck. Or this trifle or that, all the while telling her 'we can't afford a new washer at this time.'
Please read the first post.
As my friend Matthew says, Be Blessed! (Which really means, to me, to insure that you are placing yourself where you can receive all of God's blessings.)
posted
Hey Jeff L., First let me say I consider it an honor for you to call me your friend. Having said that, please let me ask you a question.
First let me say that I think you know that I'm a stay at home dad, while my wife works. That being said... How does it effect your above theology to understand that men and women used to (during all but the very recent past in the USA and other industrialized nations) take their children with them to work and teach them while mentoring them every day?
My case? The men were farmers, fishermen, carpenters, hunters/gathers, and etc. They raised their boys to be the same. The women were seamstresses, cooks, farmers, and etc. Proverbs 31:13-27 has quite a list of things she did outside of the home. They raised their daughters to be the same. Here is the list.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. 17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. 19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. 27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
My wife is a .net programmer, which I could not find listed in The Bible. However, she can teach this skill to our daughter. I am a "stay at home dad," but I also fix up and sell houses (jack-of-all-triads, I guess?) while we live in them. I plan on teaching my little girl as much as I can about what I do, and if we have a son, I will teach him everything I do.
posted
Oh, and one more thing (to Columbo you)... I believe there is a big difference between being a "keeper at home", than there is being kept at home. Also , the Greek says "HOME ACTers"(sic) or "workers at home" ...but The Bible doesn't say, only workers at home.
This evidence would fit the Proverbs 31 woman, who obviously didn't stay at home all day with the kids!
I don't think I would be the best person to answer your question as my situation is very much similar to yours. I recuse myself.
But I will add these few comments.
I don't know of a case in scripture that addresses a stay-at-home-dad but there are certainly cases where women raised their children without a father.
Can you build a case where the word woman here refers to wisdom and not a female person? The gender of "wisdom" in earlier chapters is always feminine. This would allow the passage to apply to a wise person of either gender. But a quick study reveals that the word translated 'woman' is not used in context of speaking of wisdom, but it is used when talking about finding a wife.
Or, it could simply be stating that the wise person aims high. She is a remarkable "woman" to say the least! Kinda super-human, don't you think?
I agree about keeper/kept. "Keeper" implies willingness to me, while 'kept' implies force.
You're right! Taking care of a family involves errands outside of the home.
You have focused on my secondary line of thought in this topic, a byproduct of writing the first. Any comments on the primary post regarding love?
posted
I really studied out this "love thing" a while back, and came to the same conclusion John did in First John 4:7-8 "Beloved ones, may we be loving one another with The Love that is out of The God, and everyone loving out of The God has been generated, and is knowing The God. The one not loving, knew not that The God is love."
1.)We are called to love with "The Love" of The Lord. 2.)We must know God, to love with His love. 3.)God Himself is "The Love" we are called to live in. (1 John 4:16)
Your reply only raises more questions. Did you actually define love in your study? I'd like to hear.
Q1. What is "'The Love' of The Lord?" Q2. What does it mean to "know God?" To "love with His love?" Q3. What is "The Love we are called to live in?"
Can I attempt to answer these from scripture using the same 1st letter of John? I hope you don't mind my help.
Here's how we can be sure that we know God in the right way: Keep his commandments. If someone claims, "I know him well!" but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a liar. His life doesn't match his words. But the one who keeps God's word is the person in whom we see God's mature love. This is the only way to be sure we're in God. Anyone who claims to be intimate with God ought to live the same kind of life Jesus lived. (1 John 2, The Message).
Do you find it strange that obedience to commandments has anything to do with love? Aren't laws, rules, commandments simply too restrictive to our freedom? Yet, there it is. How do you reconcile love for God and neighbor with keeping commandments?
Again, let me give you my quick answer.
When ask which was the greatest commandment Jesus replied, "'Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.' This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.' These two commands are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from them." (Matthew 22:37-40, The Message).
I used The Message version because, unlike the KJV, the language is modern. I especially like the way it makes the last sentence so clear. "These two commands are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from them."
It is easy to see Jesus' view of the Old Testament. Everything written there, according to Jesus' words, can be summed up in love for God and love for our fellow man.
posted
Once again, I agree! You see, you really showed me something the other day with your "Antichrist findings" I will call them. It is a lot easier to understand what The Bible doesn't say (that the church holds to be true) than it is to say, "The Bible says this-or-that (or whatever)", like many folks have been taught all of their lives.
I really think we are to spend our life seeking "The Love" spoken of there in The Bible ...so I have no real answer other than "The Love" is a Person ...and He is The Person of Jesus Christ.
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Having said that, please let me ask you a question. 
