posted
I would like to say that Jesus is our rest. Yet, in a special way, the Sabbath remains for us to keep because it was established at creation and was "made for man." It is a perpetual sign between us and God. Later, God also gave it to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. But then He used the word "Remember" to show that it was an old commandment which they had heard before.
Would anyone like to search the scriptures to see if these things are so?
The following verses will be key to our discussion.
quote:Colossians 2 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Continued...
Things that are shadows are such for all men who accept Christ. For example, circumcision of the heart is the reality and circumcision of the flesh is the shadow. Do we really believe that Jews don't need to be circumcised in the heart rather than in the flesh?
quote:A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 9No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. (NIV)
If we do not believe this, then we may very likely believe the lie and return to an animal sacrificial system with earthly priests, and meats and drinks, and holydays, and sabbath days, and ritualistic washings, etc... We will deny Christ if we turn from Him to physical elements.
quote:Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Now, regarding the 7th day Sabbath as opposed to the festival sabbath days. The question of the Sabbath day was not challenged until much later after the Apostle John had passed away. Both Jew and Gentile and the early church were observing the Sabbath day on the 7th day of the week. That was not in question as was not whether or not it was lawful for a man to steal. There are certain things that just don't pass away until all has been fulfilled.
quote:“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (NIV)
When we discuss such important matters, let's not jump to conclusions and express an opinion we may feel obligated to support, because of pride, to our own destruction.
Notice these two verses. Then tell me what Paul was saying in Colossians. Wasn't he speaking of the shadows passing and not to judge each other by the shadows?
quote:Heb 9:6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
Hosea 2:11 I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days-all her appointed feasts.
Col 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Now is the reality found in the material things for Jews, or is Christ still the reality? Is it lawful to accept the reality in place of the shadow? Even for Jews? Yes, even for Jews. Thus, there is no interruption in the "forever" observance if the Jew transitions from the shadow to the reality. For in truth, the Lord established the reality for ever and not the shadow. The shadow was merely a schoolmaster to lead the Jews to Christ. It was their lesson book.
quote:Galatians 3:24,25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
And the law referred to here was changed (abolished) at the cross. What law was abolished by the cross? What did the cross replace? Did Jesus' sacrifice nullify the animal sacrifces? Yes! And Jesus became our High Priest which nullified the earthly priesthood.
quote:Heb 7:11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come–one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” 18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Heb 9:23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things [earthly] to be purified with these sacrifices [of animals], but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a manmade sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
In exchanging the reality, the very substance, for the shadow, Jesus both magnified and fulfilled the law of ordinances pertaining to sacrifices and feast days. Jesus also fulfilled the Ten Commandment law--He did no sin. Did Jesus also magnify the Ten Commandment law? Yes. David has affirmed this in the positive in another topic on this cafe. For Jesus said, "Ye have heard... but I say... If a man hates his brother he has committed murder in his heart. . . And if a man lust after a woman he has committed adultery in his heart."
posted
Forgive me if I've got it all wrong but what if the passage actually meant to remember the Sabbaths and other things? Before I go on with 2:14-16, I would read verse 2:8 - "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." "In meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" was never the tradition of men nor the rudiments of the world, but the Word of God to the Israelites. Numerous instructions were given through out the OT. On the other hand, we Christians in general, are after the traditions such as the observance of Christmas, Easter and the sacraments, which instructions are not found, or put in mildly, not clearly instructed in the Bible. Since it's a big topic, I would just concentrate on Sabbath - which we find many instructions in the OT and the Lord of Sabbath demonstrated a correct way to remember in the NT (I wouldn't say a new way or would I say it was abolished by Jesus). Correct me if I'm wrong so far before I move on. Thankyou.
I want to get back with both of you later. My father-in-law passed away Monday and we are still taking care of things. Perhaps David would expound on his dangling teaser and explain the parallel--since it is going over my head.
posted
Hi Jeff, You wrote:"in a special way, the Sabbath remains for us to keep because it was established at creation and was "made for man." It is a perpetual sign between us and God. Later, God also gave it to the Israelites at Mount Sinai. But then He used the word "Remember" to show that it was an old commandment which they had heard before.
Would anyone like to search the scriptures to see if these things are so?"
What do you mean, "the sabbath was established at creation"? Who observed it? Who was instructed to observe it? How is something established?
When you say that "the sabbath is a perpectual sign between us and God", who is "us" and where would you find this in scripture before it was given to Israel?
I'm curious because I've not found these things in scripture relative to the sabbath. Yes, God rested the 7th day after He was finished the work of creation but that was never called a "sabbath"! As far as I can tell NO ONE between creation and Exodus 16 was ever instructed to keep the sabbath, nor as far as I can tell, was any gentile or any non Jewish Christian ever instructed to keep the sabbath.
So why (what scriptural reasons can be puit forth) should new covenant believers who are not Jewish feel they should keep the sabbath??
posted
Hi Jeff, Sorry to hear that. Take your time to finish what you have to do.... Hi David, Sorry, I'm not American & am not familiar with the First Amendment but still would like to hear the parallel. Hi Bruce, I believed Gen 2:3 was long used by Sabbath keepers to support their argument. Let's put aside the word Sabbath for a moment and talk about the word "sanctified" in that verse. I don't know hebrews nor greek but question I want to ask is: 1. Does God sanctify the seventh day forever or just for a period of time? Seems it's forever when I read the last few chapters of Isaiah. Would one agree? 2. Does He want man to participate on that day or it's straightly for Himself only? Is it for any man or those He sanctified only? Is it for everyone who belongs to Him to participate if I understand Isaiah correctly? 3. Now the hard question is if it applies to gentile believers - Did Isaiah say so in the OT? 4. I know, I know, Gen 2:3 said the seventh day while Isaiah said sabbath.....but did Ex 20:10 link the two together? Before I move on with the NT to look at "sabbath" & "sanctified", I would like your opinions. And please, don't take it as a challenge and feel offended. I've got enough of those from my churches, my pastors, my brothers and sisters....from other forums....I just wish this forum would make a difference.
Welcome to the cafe! I too am a Canadian and it's good to see someone else from Canada participating on the forum! Hope you'll be a regular here! (Where in Canada are you from? I'm from Norwich in s. Ontario.)
There is no offence for asking questions, making comments or expressing what you believe, even though you may have a fresh or different perspective. That's how we can all grow!
Here are the questions you asked and my initial response to them: 1. Does God sanctify the seventh day forever or just for a period of time? Seems it's forever when I read the last few chapters of Isaiah. Would one agree?
I don't think there is any question that the Lord has never abolished sabbath observance and never will. I think the question is, FOR WHOM WAS SABBATH OBSERVANCE INTENDED? A definite clue is to check out what group of people Isaiah's prophecy was intended for. (Isaiah 1)
2. Does He want man to participate on that day or it's straightly for Himself only? God, Himself, rested on the first 7th day, and He has given sabbath observance to the nation of Israel as a sign between them and Him forever. (Exodus 31:13-17) Is it for any man or those He sanctified only? -My question here would be this: Relative to the 7th day, did God sanctify ANY men? OR Did He sanctify the DAY? (GEN.2:3)
Is it for everyone who belongs to Him to participate if I understand Isaiah correctly? In Isaiah 56, the prophet speaks of those who keep the sabbath and lay hold of God's covenant. The only covenant of God which includes the 7th day sabbath os the covenant that God made with israel at Mount Sinai. In fact, Deut.4:13 makes very clear that that covenant WAS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; i.e. an integral part of that covenant was sabbath keeping! So those who were participants in that covenant were required to be sabbath keepers! Is that not the covenant that decayed, waxed old and vanished away? (Heb.8:13)
3. Now the hard question is if it applies to gentile believers - Did Isaiah say so in the OT? Certainly, if a "son of a stranger" (stranger to Israel, or a Gentile, Isaiah 56:6) desired to take hold of God's covenant made with Israel at Sinai, keeping the 7th day sabbath was part of the package.
4. I know, I know, Gen 2:3 said the seventh day while Isaiah said sabbath.....but did Ex 20:10 link the two together? Yes. Ex.20:10 and 11 definitely link the two. However, scripture gives no indication whatsoever that the Lord instructed anyone to keep the sabbath between creation and Exodus 16. Nor does scripture ever instruct or command any Gentile to do so. In contrast to Exodus 16, 20, 31 and Deuteronomy 5 in which Israelites are commanded to keep the sabbath, strangers were never given such commands! Rather, if they voluntarily chose to take hold of God's covenant which he made with Israel (which included the sabbath command) such a stranger was promised blessing. One of the blessings was the promise that their offerings and sacrifices would be accepted by the Lord upon His altar in His house. (This is further evidence that this was only in connection with the old covenant made at Sinai and not in connection with the new covenant made at Calvary.) Well, these are my observations. I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts relkative to the sabbath, sanctification and the new covenant. In Christ, Bruce
posted
Hi Bruce, Thankyou! Yes, I'm from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I used to go to church but now I study Bible with a small group every Friday night & sometimes Saturday. By telling you this, I hope you would somehow guess that I'm against some of the tradition church views. To help to advance our discussing, I would like to know if you believe that the church and Israel are one now that Christ died on the cross. Or, if you hold the dispensationalist view and to what extent. Now back to our conversation -
1. FOR WHOM WAS SABBATH OBSERVANCE INTENDED? A definite clue is to check out what group of people Isaiah's prophecy was intended for. (Isaiah 1) - No doubt it's primarily for Israelites. I wouldn't rule out Christians but how to "remember" is another topic to discuss.
2. My question here would be this: Relative to the 7th day, did God sanctify ANY men? OR Did He sanctify the DAY? (GEN.2:3) - Definitely the day there. However, God gave exactly the same reason through Moses why the Israelites have to remember that day. It was after Ex 19 that the Israelites pledged to obey God to be His "holy" nation. I believe holy means sanctified. What do you think?
Is that not the covenant that decayed, waxed old and vanished away? (Heb.8:13) - I understand that the ten commandments were part of the covenant but not "the" covenant. The covenant consisted of more than that, such as the regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary (Heb 9:1). I believe Heb 8:13 was referring to how Jesus sacrifice replaced those things (Heb 7 - 10).
3. - We both agreed. Agree?
4. However, scripture gives no indication whatsoever that the Lord instructed anyone to keep the sabbath between creation and Exodus 16. - What we do know is, God told them to "remember" in Ex 20. I see that God wants His creations, at least the Israelites, to remember.
Nor does scripture ever instruct or command any Gentile to do so. - Agreed. But we could also see in that era, especially in the land of Canaan, God instructed the Israelites, His chosen people, to destroy the gentiles around them.
In contrast to Exodus 16, 20, 31 and Deuteronomy 5 in which Israelites are commanded to keep the sabbath, strangers were never given such commands! - as pointed out earlier, the commands were given to the Israelites after they voluntarily pledged to follow God, which was very much the same for gentiles. God didn't force them to follow Him.
Back to you, Bruce. It's fun to have different angles studying the scriptures.
posted
posted 02-04-2005 13:57 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Chubbena,
We are only an hour and a half or two hours apart! I think you're the closest person I've talked to on this forum! I used to "go to church" too, in fact many moons ago used to be an "ordained church Reverend", till I found out that "reverend" was reserved in scripture for God alone! (Ps.111:9) Since we realized that as believers we ARE the church where ever we go, we have been looking for opportunities where ever we go to interact with and minister to other believers.
As for traditional church views, they are almost ALL derived from the old covenant pattern.i.e. a distinct priesthood, distinct holy days, distinct holy temple buildings, distijnct holy garments, distinct holy foods and meals, distinct holy tithes to support the distinct holy priesthood, distinct holy offerings to build and maintain the distinct holy temple buildings etc etc! But the essence of the new covenant is that for new covenant believers, the common is made holy! We are all holy priests, called to live holy lives 24/7, we are all laity (LAOS, the people of God), we are ALL clergy (KLEROS, the heritage of God), we are all ordained to bear fruit that remains, we are all gifted for ministry, every day is holy, every meal is holy and thus we remember the Lord Jesus as often as we eat and drink, because we ARE the temple of God we need not waste financial resources maintaining "temple buildings" and because we are all priests there is no need of "supporting" a special priestly class!
You also asked:"To help to advance our discussing, I would like to know if you believe that the church and Israel are one now that Christ died on the cross. Or, if you hold the dispensationalist view and to what extent."
I used to be a dispensationalist, but some years ago began to see that dispensational doctrines not stated in scripture were false doctrines and inventions of men. However, I do believe that scriptgure consistently distinguishes between three groups of people. In the scriptures prior to the death of Christ there are Israelites, the Gentiles or nations, and the saints. In the scriptures after the death of Christ there are the same three groups of people, the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God. Now in Christ, Jew and Gentile become united, are accepted by God on the very same basis and become members in the Body of Christ. But Jews do not cease to be Jews and Gentiles do not cease to be Gentiles in Christ. The same principle is true of males and females and of those who are bond and free! All come to Christ on the very same ground and are accepted totally apart from their nationality, gender, or social status. But being in Christ does not do away with one's nationality, gender or social status! So I believe that Israel is distinct from the church in that all who are Israelites are physical descendants of Jacob/Israel, but most Israelites are not children of God. By way of contrast, the church includes some who are physical descendants of Jacob/Israel but includes NO ONE who is not a child of God! Thus this distinction between Israel and the church is a scriptural one NOT a dispensational one! You might like to check out some of the other discussions on the forum here as Jeff and I have gone "round this mountain" many times before!
Now to continue our discussion... (1)You agreed with me that the sabbath was "primarily for Israelites." But you continued,"I wouldn't rule out Christians but how to "remember" is another topic to discuss."
My question would be, why include Christians in instructions that were given ONLY to Israelites?
2.Relative to what God sanctified, man or a day, you responded:"Definitely the day there. However, God gave exactly the same reason through Moses why the Israelites have to remember that day. It was after Ex 19 that the Israelites pledged to obey God to be His "holy" nation. I believe holy means sanctified. What do you think?"
Yes, to be made holy is to be set apart for God. That is the meaning of holiness. But it was in Exodus 16 that God first instructed Israel regarding their rest on the 7th day! No mention of "remembering" the sabbath to keep it holy is mentioned in this passage! So the rememberance does NOT go back to creation! It is in Exodus 20 that the comamndment is given to the nation of Israel to "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." Thus, the remembrance is a reminder not to forget the Lord's commandment to them in Exodus 16. It is NOT a remembrance of God's rest, although it is related to it as 20:11 makes clear.
When I asked,"Is that not the covenant that decayed, waxed old and vanished away? (Heb.8:13)"...you responded,"I understand that the ten commandments were part of the covenant but not "the" covenant. The covenant consisted of more than that, such as the regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary (Heb 9:1). I believe Heb 8:13 was referring to how Jesus sacrifice replaced those things (Heb 7 - 10)."
Are you sure of that? Actually Deuteronomy 4:13 settles the matter very clearly! The covenant consisted of TEN COMMANDMENTS!
(3)Yes, we are agreed that one cannot take hold of the covenant made at Sinai (Ten Commandments) and yet break one or all of them!
4. When I wrote:"However, scripture gives no indication whatsoever that the Lord instructed anyone to keep the sabbath between creation and Exodus 16."...you responded, "What we do know is, God told them to "remember" in Ex 20. I see that God wants His creations, at least the Israelites, to remember."
Chubbena, God NEVER gave the commandment to "remember the sabbath day" ro Adam, to Seth, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph. He did not give such a command to Job or to any gentile. It was not a creational command, but a national command! It was not to believing or obedient israelites, but rather to an entire nation of rebels!!!
When I noted:"Nor does scripture ever instruct or command any Gentile to do so."... you responded:"Agreed. But we could also see in that era, especially in the land of Canaan, God instructed the Israelites, His chosen people, to destroy the gentiles around them."
Do you remember when the nations around were coming to the israelites on the sabbath and seeking to involve them in trade and commerce on the sabbath? God did NOT command the other nations to observe the sabbath, they were simply warned not to entice the Israelites to defile the sabbath.
When I wrote:"In contrast to Exodus 16, 20, 31 and Deuteronomy 5 in which Israelites are commanded to keep the sabbath, strangers were never given such commands!"...you responded," as pointed out earlier, the commands were given to the Israelites after they voluntarily pledged to follow God, which was very much the same for gentiles. God didn't force them to follow Him." Actually, this is NOT SO! Exodus 16 precedes Israel's promise!!!
You concluded with,...Back to you Bruce. It's fun to have different angles studying the scriptures."
posted
May I intrude upon your discussion to ask Bruce a question?
Bruce you wrote:
quote:Chubbena, God NEVER gave the commandment to "remember the sabbath day" ro Adam, to Seth, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph. He did not give such a command to Job or to any gentile. It was not a creational command, but a national command! It was not to believing or obedient israelites, but rather to an entire nation of rebels!!!
I think we need to consider this for a moment. You said earlier that "the essence of the new covenant is that for new covenant believers, the common is made holy!" and "every day is holy, every meal is holy." Personally, I think we commonize the holiness of God too much--bringing it down to our level rather than allowing it to raise us up to his level. We need to consider Isaiah who, when he saw the holiness of God, declared, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
But, if you keep every day holy because you believe God has declared every day holy then why would you think that the followers of God before Sinai would have done anything less than keep the 7th day holy? Did they not understand it? It memorialized God's creation in 6 days and set Him apart from all other (so-called) gods as the Creator. Besides, they had direct communion with God. Adam lives over 900 years. He would have had opportunity to teach a lot of children, grand children, and great grand children in that time. Do you think he failed to teach them how to worship God? How to offer a proper sacrifice? How to keep the Sabbath holy and why?
We have a written record. And nowhere do I see that God has declared every day to be holy. Am I to assume this and yet ignore the plain statements of God's expressed will? If God declares something holy then it is holy and it matters not what nationality you are. If you desire to keep holy that which God has declared holy, then you will do it. If you do not desire to follow God, then you will not keep it holy. Right? This is a question that everyone must ask for themself. Actually, there are two. 1) If God declares something holy will I keep it holy, and 2) If I don't keep it holy then what does that say about my relationship with God?
Bruce, I think you are really missing something very simply here regarding the Old and New Covenant. When God commanded people to do something and established a covenant with them, He did not force them to obey. In fact, they were a rebellious people. But He still held out His hand to them. This is grace and it is the only way anyone can be saved. No one will be saved by their obedience. All will be saved only by grace through the sacrifice of Jesus. There is simply no other way. So the Old Covenant was not a covenant that the people should be saved by their own works. That would be contrary to God. God knows we cannot of ourselves obey His will. Therefore, He would never ask anyone to do something they cannot do. That would never be deemed justice and God is just. So when God commands us to obey He also makes provision for our obedience. That provisioning, or grace, is not dispensed by the church or by priests through sacraments but by God through Jesus Christ. Everyone has access to it. We receive it by faith. It is no different then than it is now. I say this because so many of your arguments sound contrary to this truth. They tend to make it sound as though you believe there is another way into heaven beside through Jesus. One before the cross and another after. If you would like for me to be more specific with an example I will try if you want. Let me know.
Bruce, do you believe in a 6 day creation? One thing interesting to note is the many purposes of the heavenly bodies.
quote:Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years."
While the seasons roughly mark out the year, and the cycle of the moon roughly marks out the month, and the sun marks out the day, there is nothing to mark out a seven day week except for the Sabbath and Creation. The Sabbath is also for a sign just as the heavenly objects were for signs. Just as the lights in the firmament mark out seasons, days, and years, the Sabbath marks out the week.
Well, I am interested to see Chubbena response so I will end now.
posted
Yes, David, I saw many of my wife's relatives. It was very nice. I actually did a scripture reading for the service. I was able to encourage my wife with scripture but not many others. I assured her that God is her Father and, unlike an earthly father whom we have only a moment, He will never leave her nor forsake her.
Regarding the First Amendment; we have to understand why this was added. Of so recent many had suffered at the hands of other Christians who sought to establish their system of beliefs as the one and only and by this many Baptists suffered persecution and jailing. The amendment was not to prohibit establishment of religion outside of the government, but to prohibit civil laws regarding worship. If every man is free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness, then no law should be made to limit the expression of that freedom--not in personal effects, speech, or worship. So it really neither prohibits religion nor encourages it.
Certainly, there is no provision for a church-state government where a religious body controls the head of government, the seat of government. Yet, this is the picture we see in prophecy. In Revelation we see the Whore sitting on the scarlet colored beast. We know that in Revelation there is a pure woman, the bride of Christ, and an adulterous woman who is untrue to Christ and is therefore apostate. This apostate church is that woman which sits upon the beast (we know beasts represent nations such as the Bear and the Eagle today). Any rider holds the reins and so we have a picture of an apostate church sitting in the seat of authority holding the reins which guide the head of the nation(s). Thus is formed a church-state relationship.
We are also told that "they" will form an image to the earlier beast. The only recorded history of church-state governments that I know of never worked for the best of mankind. For 1260 years the RCC ruled the world until that little French Corporal named Napoleon proclaimed himself Emperor of France and other threw the Vatican state and established a civil government in its place. Thus, he inflicted a deadly wound to that beast. But we are told it will live again. Amazing, but true. The Bible states it. I believe the image we will see formed is that of the RCC with its church-state government. At that time civil laws will be enacted to force people to worship according to the nations laws. Those who do not will be excluded from the economy of the nation and will suffer economic sanctions not being allowed to buy or sell.
If they are willing to receive the mark of this beast and pay homage to her and worship according to her dictates, going against conscience, then they will receive the mark of that beast and be allowed to buy and sell. The mark, or sign, is not a tattoo of 666 on the body. The mark, or sign, is their allegiance. The whole world will know where we stand in that day by our worship. There will be a distinguishing "mark" placed upon us if we will not conform to worship the beast's image. If we do not go along with the state enforced religion then we will be "marked" people and will not receive (perhaps a special card or number) that would allow us to participate in a nearly paperless economy.
I am not sure of the mark the world will use to exclude those who remain faithful to God, perhaps a number like our social security number, but there must be an outward "mark" to distinguish those who worship God from those who worship according to the civil laws. Simply refusing to worship according to the civil laws does not necessarily mean that you worship God. So there must be a two-fold sign, or mark, that demonstrates both a resolve to obey the true God and a refusal to worship a false god.
I agree that we rest in Christ. I agree we are to remember the Sabbath as it was made for man and established at creation. (I’ll post a study dealing with the commands of Christ under “Basic Matters” that mentions the commands at creation.)
Regarding the verse at hand:
Col. 2:16-17 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Looking at this passage I must ask, is it even referring to the Sabbath day? In verse 14 we see it is speaking of the ordinances against us that were blotted out and nailed to the cross. Were the 10 commandments nailed to the cross as many teach? We must look at the context of this verse to understand.
Col. 2:14 (KJV) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
What are these ordinances? Touch not, taste not, handle not, after the commandments and doctrines of men.
Col. 2:20-22 (KJV) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
These things even have a show of wisdom in a worldly sense; but we are to seek things above, not earthly things.
Col. 2:23-3:2 (KJV) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. [3:1] If ye then be risen wit h Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
If we notice the earlier verses warned not to be deceived after men’s tradition. We are complete in Christ. We are circumcised of the heart spiritually, not physically. The Jews wanted to keep the ceremonial laws and the Gentiles had philosophy. We are to be deceived of neither.
Col. 2:8-11 (KJV) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. [10] And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
We know that the ordinances mentioned in verse 16 and 17 were from God and were a shadow of things to come.
Col. 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
We see mention in Heb. 10 of the law as a shadow. What law is it talking about ? The ceremonial laws concerning sacrifices offered yearly.
Hebrews 10:1 (KJV) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
We see in Heb.Chap. 9 the mention of patterns. We see Christ did not enter the holy place made with hands but into heaven. He did not offer himself yearly as the priest had brought sacrifices yearly; but he was the one and final sacrifice.. The other things were shadows of him. What law is a shadow of good things to come? The ritualistic laws of sacrifice are mentioned. Those point to Christ.
Hebrews 9:22-26 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. [23] It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: [25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; [26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
What is meant by these words, “ meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [17] Which are a shadow …” ? If you have ever studied the feasts of God, you know there are directions on what must be sacrificed, rules on foods and drinks, how the holydays were to be observed, etc. You would also know there are several yearly sabbath days related to these feasts. The yearly sacrifices and the ceremonial laws were the subject of this discussion. The Jewish believers wanted to continue observing these feasts and were judging those Gentile believers who did not However, Paul says it is not necessary as these ceremonial ordinances were a shadow pointing to Christ. The body is of Christ—not of ceremonies or shadows!
Col. 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Galatians 5:1-4 (KJV) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Our circumcision is to be of the heart not physical. Just the same these physical ceremonial laws were pointing us to Christ, but have no use now. Ceremonial laws and moral laws are different. Christ did not nail morality to the cross. He nailed ceremony to the cross.
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Faith, I don't think man has taught you these things. The world does not have this knowledge. Thanks for sharing. I need to review this again because I am just studying this for myself and don't fully understand it all yet. Thank you so much for sharing. Please see my related post under Radically Christian Cafe » Basic Matters » Apologetics » What are the commands of Christ?
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Hi Bruce, Thanks for sharing your background. Traditional church - agreeably disagree with your view - unless you were referring to the Roman Catholics, what present day protestant churches do are nothing but human tradition - period. Dispensationalist - good that you're not - we don't have to waste time in that area! And I did read the discussions between you & Jeff - both exhausting & interesting! Now we can study the Bible together from the view of "one new man". We would agree with Paul - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To continue........ 1. Sabbath - the Bible didn't say it's given only for the Israelites neither! If it was so we would just throw out the whole OT for that matter. Apparently we would not, why? Exactly why "I wouldn't rule out......"
2. What I wanted to point out was - that day was separated by God, Israelites were separated by God. On the Sabbath the Israelites were not forbidden to do anything. Rather, they were to spend that particular day wholeheartedly with God - not unlike those deeply in love, to keep the weekend to themselves, do things together and not to be interrupted.
The covenant - you missed my point here: no doubt the covenant consisted of the Ten Commandments, but the covenant consisted more than that - it consisted of regulations for worship and more....And yes, I believe and I'm sure because Heb 9:1 said so.
4. The Ten Commandments were not given prior to Ex 20 but it didn't mean that there weren't any verbal law - otherwise men (all nations) would not be charged with sin in Genesis. Regarding the gentiles in the land of Canaan. Sorry I didn't make my point clear - I was referring to the surrounding gentiles "in" the land of Canaan, not gentiles outside the land of Canaan. Re "Exodus 16 precedes Israel's promise" - I don't recall God punish the Israelites although they offended Him, not until after they pledged to be His people in Ex19 & the Ten Commandments were proclaimed anew in Ex 20. We would notice that there were commandments & laws Ex 15:26 & 16:28 - what would these be? Looks like God gave the Israelites, His chosen nation, a brand new start at Ex 20.
More on weekly Sabbath - What if someone, voluntarily separates that day for God. Not as a law but out of pure love? Are you tired of hearing those claiming everyday is holy when in fact they wouldn't squeeze one of seven out of their busy schedule, let alone everyday! If one can't practice spending one out of seven to be with Him now, how would one be expected to be with Him eternally? Very much like a marriage! Church history told us that the observance (whether the 7th or the 1st) of the Sabbath was not out of fashion until 20th century. Why? Did we just find out in the 20th century that it's wrong to do so?
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Questions for Bruce & Jeff: 1. Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Is it "are a shadow of things to come" or "were a shadow of things to come"? Is there a relation to Heb 4? 2. Col 2:8, 20-23 where are these influences from? Don't seem to be from Jews. If not from Jews, who judges in Col 2:16? Thanks.....
I was just a little confused with the following: "Traditional church - agreeably disagree with your view - unless you were referring to the Roman Catholics, what present day protestant churches do are nothing but human tradition - period." Do you see any distinction between RC and protestant churches in this regard? Are not the practices of both virtually all human tradition? In what respect do you disagree with my view re traditional church?
To continue........You wrote: 1. Sabbath - the Bible didn't say it's given only for the Israelites neither! If it was so we would just throw out the whole OT for that matter. Apparently we would not, why? Exactly why "I wouldn't rule out......"
If the sabbath comandments were not addressed to Israel alone, who else were they addressed to? Scripture please? There is much in the O.T. that was not addressed specificly to Israel! But all that is there is written for our LEARNING. (I Cor.10) But that certainly does NOT mean that all the commands given in the O.T. are for our obedience! There are commands given to Israel that were never intended for Gentiles. There are scripturaL commands to Gentiles which were never intended for Israelites. There are scriptural commands given to women not intended for men and vice versa. So not all commands of scripture are to be obeyed by all people. That is my point.
2. What I wanted to point out was - that day was separated by God, Israelites were separated by God. On the Sabbath the Israelites were not forbidden to do anything. Rather, they were to spend that particular day wholeheartedly with God - not unlike those deeply in love, to keep the weekend to themselves, do things together and not to be interrupted.
Chubbena, you must have a different Bible than mine! If Israel was not forbidden to do anything on the sabbath, what do you do with Ex.16:29? with 20:10? with 31:14,15? with Deut.5:14? with Neh.10:31? with Neh.13:13-22? with Isaiah 58:13? with Jer.17:22-27?
You wrote:"The covenant - you missed my point here: no doubt the covenant consisted of the Ten Commandments, but the covenant consisted more than that - it consisted of regulations for worship and more....And yes, I believe and I'm sure because Heb 9:1 said so."
Chubbena, Heb.9:1 does NOT say that the first covenant CONSISTED of ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary"! It says that it it HAD those things! If I told you I had bought a new house and you asked me to tell you all about it....if I told you that the house HAD a large lot, many mature trees, and a fish pond, would you conclude that the house CONSISTED of those things, or would you understand that they pertained to and came with it? I certainly agree that the ordinances and the tabernacle in the wilderness PERTAINED/BELONGED TO the covenant, but I would NOT agree that the covenant itself CONSISTED of those things! How can a building be part of a covenant??? It can't! But that building and those ordinances certainly pertained to the covenant.
4. The Ten Commandments were not given prior to Ex 20 but it didn't mean that there weren't any verbal law - otherwise men (all nations) would not be charged with sin in Genesis.
I agree with you in part! The first command or prohibition was given in the garden. "Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen.2:17
But from Adam to Moses there were no more laws given! Romans 5:13,14 is clear on this. While men from Adam to Moses did not sin (i.e. transgress a law as Adam had) yet death reigned all that time!
You continued:"Regarding the gentiles in the land of Canaan. Sorry I didn't make my point clear - I was referring to the surrounding gentiles "in" the land of Canaan, not gentiles outside the land of Canaan."
It is true that the Lord commanded the Israelites to destroy the inhabitants of the land. (A command that Israel failed to carry out and thus continually had to deal with those remnants as a thorn in their side!) However, that does not in any way deal with the matter that no Gentile individual or nation was ever instructed to keep the sabbath!
You continued:"Re "Exodus 16 precedes Israel's promise" - I don't recall God punish(ing) the Israelites although they offended Him, not until after they pledged to be His people in Ex19 & the Ten Commandments were proclaimed anew in Ex 20. We would notice that there were commandments & laws Ex 15:26 & 16:28 - what would these be? Looks like God gave the Israelites, His chosen nation, a brand new start at Ex 20."
Romans 5 clearly tells us that "sin is not imputed when there is no law". From Adam onward, there was no law UNTIL MOSES. So there is no punishment meted out when there is no law transgressed! So this is clear evidence that Ex.20 was the very first giving of the ten commandments, not a "new proclamation of them" as you suggest! Where or to whom did you think that God had verbalized or required the ten before???
You continued:"More on weekly Sabbath - What if someone, voluntarily separates that day for God. Not as a law but out of pure love? Are you tired of hearing those claiming everyday is holy when in fact they wouldn't squeeze one of seven out of their busy schedule, let alone everyday! If one can't practice spending one out of seven to be with Him now, how would one be expected to be with Him eternally? Very much a marriage!
Chubbena, new covenant saints are WITH GOD, AND GOD IS WITH THEM 24/7! We are in Christ and Christ is in us! He IS OUR SABBATH REST FROM OUR WORKS! (HEBREWS 4) It has always been UNBELIEF that hinders people from entering into God's rest! This is a relationship to God based on the finished work of Christ, the relationship in which believers have ceased from their own works and rested in His, and the relationship in which God dwells in us and we in Him is something of which OT Israelites knew nothing! If someone wants to separate one day from all the rest for God, he is free to do so and I am not to judge him for it. If I choose to regard every day alike and live my life as unto Him 7 days a week, he is not to judge me. (See Romans 14:5,6) But that is a "horse of a different color" from saying that God commands all men to observe the sabbath and failure to do so is disobedience to the command of God!
Church history told us that the observance (whether the 7th or the 1st) of the Sabbath was not out of fashion until 20th century. Why? Did we just find out in the 20th century that it's wrong to do so? Chubbena, have I ever said it was "wrong to observe the sabbath"?? Rather I have maintained that keeping the 7th day sabbath is a continual and perpetual responsibility of Israelites to whom it was given as a perpetual sign between them and God. (Ex.31:13-17) What I have rather maintained is that there is no OBLIGATION UPON GENTILES to observe the sabbath! It certainly is not wrong if a gentile wishes to do so, but that is NOT an obligation, nor is he disobedient if he doesn't -as an Israelite would be! But as new covenant believers, who believe what God has said, we enter into rest for he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works as God did from his. Heb.4:3,10 As for the first day of the week being a "sabbath" such an idea is pure superstition! There is no scriptural basis for such a fantasy at all! The sabbath that God commanded Israel was the 7th day NOT the first!(EX.20:10) AND, whatever God establishes to be observed FOREVER, HE never changes it in midstream!
As for church history, what does first century church practice teach us about sabbath keeping by believers in Christ who were not Israelites???
BTW, "church history" is a very faulty and unreliable standard for church PRACTICE! Just as first and second century church practice was not marked by sabbath keeping or observance of any "holy days", so too first and second century church practice was absolutely void of the use of "church buildings", a clerical class distinction between clergy and laity etc! So if you appeal to church history (i.e. apostate Christendom from the time of Constantine in the early 3rd century)for support for a sabbath-keeping doctrine, must you not be consistent and do the same with "church buildings/temples" and clergy/laity distinctions??? Do you see my point?
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I would like to explain a bit more on how we worship in spirit and truth as opposed to customs, time, places, etc. I do not mean it is wrong for one to set aside a day to study God's word and spend time with him in prayer. What I am saying is that it does not have to be at a certain time or place. Remember the scriptures says to pray without ceasing. I'm sure no one prays constantly. It means to know and love God so much that the first thing you do when something comes up in the day is pray. You can do that at work silently whenever you need help or want to thank him for something good that happens, etc.
Once a person told me I'd go to hell for not going to church. I asked the person which pleases God more, for a person to spend 2 hours a week in a pew listening to someone talk about the Bible or does he prefer us to spend time reading his word ourselves each day? Would he prefer us to listen to another's prayer or would he prefer to hear us pray ourselves? Needless to say, the person didn't ask me to go to church again.
We don't have to spend the entire day every day praying or studying in order to be a holy people to God. It is like a marriage. I don't think of my husband 24 hours a day; but I am married to him 24 hours a day. He doesn't think any less of me for not talking to him constantly. I guess he's glad I don't. But how would my husband feel if I thought I could only talk to him at 11:00 on one day a week and the rest of the week was mine to do as I pleased. I'm at his call every day. If something comes up and he needs me, I drop whatever and help him.
Just so if God places someone in our path, he'll make a way for us to do good to that person. If something comes up, we're free to talk to him right then. Also he likes us to spend time every day with him; but he also understands if we can't on some days.
In looking at the disciples and early church, I think they often met when Paul or one of the others came to town. They often spent the evenings together until he left. It was more spontaneous and when the occasion arose. Fellowship doesn't have to be something that is planed and set in stone. There doesn't have to be a certain way to do it. Often we've had opportunity to fellowship or witness while away on business trips in which we met many different types of people. Granted we didn't get to meet with them regularly; but we had good fellowship at the time. Had we strictly stuck to a legalistic sabbath day rest, we would have never had such opportunities.
It is the legalism that is wrong. While I prefer to rest on Saturday after a long week, sometimes I rest on Sun. or other days depending on what needed to be done. I am free to fellowship with other saints any time the occasion arises. I don't have to be at a certain place, it can be on the street, in a park, at a job or where ever. It doesn't last 1 or 2 hours. It may be 5 minutes or several hours for several days in a row. The same is true of Bible study and prayer. I can spend 5 minutes one day and hours other days. God doesn't hold me to a time clock.
I can't make anything holy. God makes us holy. Thus since God made us a holy people, how can we seperate our holiness from our unholiness? Can we compartmentalize holiness? Can we serve two masters? We only do holy things on Sat. because Sat. is holy. No! Holiness is a way of life. It is who we are in Christ.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Re. 1. Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ....you asked "Is it "are a shadow of things to come" or "were a shadow of things to come"?"
As the text clearly indicates it is PRESENT TENSE, not PAST. As I have clearly indicated all along, sabbath observance has never become obsolete FOR THE NATION OF ISRAEL TO WHOM IT HAS ALWAYS APPLIED! But Paul was writing to the church at Colosse which was largely composed of GENTILE believers! IT was TO THEM, that He said, "Let no man judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of thongs to come; but the body is of Christ."
The contrast he was emphasizing was between the SHADOW and the BODY! As I walk outside on a sunny day my body co-exists with my shadow! The body is the reality. The shadow is simply an absence of light! The Lord Jesus said, I am the light of the world, he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life."
Jewish Christians tended to be critical of Gentile believers who didn't practice circumcision, and who didn't observe the sabbath. IN fact, in the early days, some of them believed that Gentiles could not be saved if they did not do such things! Paul never ever told Jewish believers to stop circumcising their baby boys, nor did he ever instruct them to stop keeping the 7th day sabbath. But he very clearly and unequivocally stated that such things had nothing to do with Gentiles!
You also asked:"Is there a relation to Heb 4?" I believe there is a very real relationship! 7th day sabbath keeping is part of the shadow that preceeded the Body of Christ. The reality for us who are members of that Body is that we have entered into rest as we entered into Christ and believed on Him!
You also asked regarding Col 2:8, 20-23 "8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ....20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." ... where are these influences from? Don't seem to be from Jews. If not from Jews, who judges in Col 2:16? 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
The facts is, that man (regardless of nationality) is very religious and naturally at enmity with God. The Gentile world, under the influence of Satan is characterized by philosophy and vain deceit. All world religions are characterized by various ordinances that require their followers and adherents to "touch not, taste not, and handle not." When I speak of the "Gentile world" I am not excluding Israel. Gentiles are simply "nations" ETHNOS or ethnic groups. Israel is, in fact, one of the ETHNOS (NATIONS). Even the God-given ordinances given to Israel included many things that they were not to touch, not to taste and not to handle!
But verse 16, while it includes many features that are also common to all world religions (i.e. regulations about what you may and may not eat, what you may or may not drink, what holy days or moons you must observe) as far as I can tell and I could be wrong, Judaism is the only religion that I know of that has SABBATH DAYS which it's followers are to observe. Do you know of other religions whose scriptures instruct them to keep certain days of rest?
But for new covenant believers who are in Christ(Phil.4:21), who have entered into rest in him(Heb.4), who are instructed that they need not refuse any meat or food if it be received with thanksgiving (I Tim.4:3,4), who are not required to observe any holy days or sabbaths above any other day (Rom.14:5,6)....such believers are delivered from religion and religious regulations that create an ongoing and all pervasive dichotomy between things holy and things common! The new covenant does away with all such things! There is no longer any distinction between clergy and laity for all the laity ARE CLERGY! There is no longer any distinction between holy priests and common people for ALL ARE HOLY AND ROYAL PRIESTS! There are no longer any holy days to observe for we ARE A HOLY PEOPLE CALLED TO LIVES OF HOLINESS TO BE LIVED UNTO HIM AND NOT UNTO OURSELVES! There is no longer a distinction between MINISTERS AND THOSE TO WHOM THEY MINISTER, for every one has received a gift and is responsible to minister that gift to others as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
You see, new covenant Christianity is NOT a NEW RELIGION...the new covenant DECLARES WAR ON RELIGION! It is God's provision for deliverance from religious bondage! Did you know that Webster's Dictionary defines religion from the latin RE (back) and LIGARE (to bind) as a "return to bondage"?? But Paul writes to new covenant believers at Galatia, who proved that they were so prone to be "religious", to be bound back by religious notions, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE!" Does this help?
BTW, I think Faith has said much the same things in her post above! She too has come to see that new covenant Christians do not any longer live in a world separated into "sacred" and "secular" departments! Things "secular" are really things in which God is left out! But for us such a mindset is contrary to the facts that God is IN US and we are IN GOD!
I agree with you if you meant the traditional church is not right.
I disagree with you when you said: "As for traditional church views, they are almost ALL derived from the old covenant pattern.i.e. a distinct priesthood, distinct holy days, distinct holy temple buildings, distijnct holy garments, distinct holy foods and meals, distinct holy tithes to support the distinct holy priesthood, distinct holy offerings to build and maintain the distinct holy temple buildings etc etc! But the essence of the new covenant is that for new covenant believers, the common is made holy! "
Please see if we can agree on this - The traditional church manipulated what were said in OT to support what they do and what they want to do.
I just have to get back to you later for the rest - there's a lot for me to read. Thanks!
Hi Faith,
I guess you read me wrong, keeping the weekend open for the love one doesn't imply that he/she is ignored for the rest of the week. What I wanted to say was - I wouldn't drop what I am doing in the office everytime she calls and go spontaneous (Again don't get me wrong - I would if it's an emergency!). It's just not possible, even if I were the owner of the company. She wouldn't expect me to do so neither. It doesn't mean that I would reject the call or be rude - I would just keep the conversation short and save it for later. However, she would be extremely upset, if she asked me to keep the weekends open for her and I agreed, and I don't. Even worse, if I changed my mind and claim that I'm hers everyday anyway and don't have to be on a specific day. The question is, did she really ask me to keep the weekend open for her and if I have promised to? To be more specific, is it His Will for us to keep the Sabbath? As for me, I would do the best I can, not to be occupied by other things on that day, not as a law, but out of love for His Words.
You wrote:"Traditional church - I agree with you if you meant the traditional church is not right." Then we are definitely agreed on that!
You continued:"I disagree with you when you said: "As for traditional church views, they are almost ALL derived from the old covenant pattern.i.e. a distinct priesthood, distinct holy days, distinct holy temple buildings, distinct holy garments, distinct holy foods and meals, distinct holy tithes to support the distinct holy priesthood, distinct holy offerings to build and maintain the distinct holy temple buildings etc etc! But the essence of the new covenant is that for new covenant believers, the common is made holy! " Please see if we can agree on this - The traditional church manipulated what were said in OT to support what they do and what they want to do."
I want to be careful here as such a statement seems to indicate that traditional church members or at least leaders HAVE PURPOSEFULLY AND KNOWINGLY DONE SO and thus such a statement is charging such with wrong motives. Now, in some cases that may very well be true. But I was once in leadership positions in traditional churches and knew many other such leaders personally. I do not know any such leaders whom I could personally charge with such motives! I believe most are just like I was...i.e. we received or inheritted a system from parents or other Christians whom we looked up to and admired and naturally thought and honestly believed that the system in which we found ourselves was right and scriptural!
Now, as I got older, and discovered that scripture itself taught a whole different concept of church than I'd ever conceived of...I got downright angry with men whom I had looked up to and trusted! But then the Lord stopped me dead in my tracks and asked me, "How can you blame them? It is true, they did not search the scriptures whether those things were so, but YOU made exactly the same error!"
I had to admit it was the truth! Former generations generally received what their predecessors handed them and did not test it by the standard of scripture. So I often tell people that everyone of us, every generation must test their doctrines, their practices, their traditions to see if they are truly scriptural traditions or if they are merely traditions of men with no scriptural foundation at all!
So, in essence, what I'm saying is this: I do not believe I can blame anyone but myself if I have been taught wrong or if I have followed a bad example! I have the standard of scripture and the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide me. If I was deceived and blinded to the truth without having evil or manipulative motives to knowingly deceive others, I must allow that the very same is likely true for most others too. BUT behind it all, we need to recognize the work of the Enemy who does NOT want ANY of God's people walking in liberty and victory in the power of a new covenant relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Ultimately, the work of deception is his work and many religious leaders are just as deceived as were the rest of us!
Would you agree with me on this?
How many leaders, pastors, evangelists, seminary professors have had any teaching on what the new covenant really is and what a vast difference there is between the old covenant ways and those of the new? I'm convinced that all the confusion relative to sabbath keeping is a direct result of such a lack of teaching and scriptural study relative to the vast differences between the two covenants! Most godly Christians that I know and have asked, cannot even tell what a covenant is!! (Let alone have any clue what the differences are between the old and new covenant or the differences between ministry under the old and ministry under the new, or what the difference are between how old covenant saints related to God and how we, as new covenant believers, are enabled to relate to Him!)
quote:To be more specific, is it His Will for us to keep the Sabbath? As for me, I would do the best I can, not to be occupied by other things on that day, not as a law, but out of love for His Words.
Hi Chubbena,
I'm glad to see you aren't legalistic as most who keep the sabbath tend to be. And that was my point. Jesus said he was Lord of the sabbath and he made the sabbath for man. He did not, however, make a bunch of rules to keep that day. The OT rules were done away and Jesus showed us we could do many things that were thought to be taboo. I believe the sabbath is made for man, for all men not just Jews. It is in the "keeping" of the day that trouble arises. We often get too involved in "how to" and thus make it a burden just as the Pharasee. I find the same thing often happens in discussions of "how to" home church, "how to" observe this or that. Spending the sabbath day or any other with the Lord and his word for the love of him and his words has to be right. It is the keeping or setting up, I would have to say, as almost an idol of a day or anything else that is wrong.
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But how would my husband feel if I thought I could only talk to him at 11:00 on one day a week and the rest of the week was mine to do as I pleased. I'm at his call every day. If something comes up and he needs me, I drop whatever and help him.