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I have heard that the Sabbath was given to the Jews as a sign of their covenant. That made me wonder and I went to the Bible on that subject. What I found was that even before the commandments were given, the instructions on receiving the manna were given. On the sixth day they were to collect twice as much, because the seventh day was a day of rest. So that is telling me that Sabbath exsisted before the covenant was put in place and finalised. The sabbath was made for man not just for the Jews. In Exodus 16:29; the Lord has given you the Sabbath, the Sabbath was already given to them. Also the commandments of clean and unclean animals were also given to the Jews, they had to be reminded on what to eat and not eat as well on the rules of sacrifice. These rules were already in place after the garden of Eden. So the Jews had to be reminded on rules of sacrifice as well as on how to worship the Creator. When people say that the Sabbath was nailed to the cross, that makes me wonder, because what was nailed to the cross was the shadow ordinances. To me a shadow is a foretelling of what is to come. The sacrificial laws were a foretelling, not the Ten Commandments. It doesn't make any sense that not to murder someone is a shadow of what was to come. I believe the Law was magnified in a sense that when written in our hearts, not tablets of stone, it would reviel how sinful we are and how much we need Christ in our lives. The Law is now a magnified mirror; also a reminder the cross did not abolish violation, but it abolished instant condemnation.
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Okay then. How would you comment on Jesus and His behavior and treatment of the Sabbath? He had a differing view I believe. He said what God does is good, and it doesn't matter what day it is. He in many ways redifined it.
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I just like to say thankyou for your reply tragicrock, I am open to any friendly debate, because I feel I learn more that way and it gets other people and myself into the scriptures. So to reply to your reply; I find the Bible says Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and Jesus was had His hand in creation. For the Sabbath was created for man not just one nation, technicly we are all one nation under God as spiritual Jews. Jesus never said not to keep the Sabbath, but He had an issue with the legalism attached to it. Jesus said; is it not lawful to good on the Sabbath. The Sabbath is meant to do good and stregthen our relationship with God as the creator of all. Remember in Revalation it says,in the everlasting gospel, that we are called to worship the creator. For years we have been worshipping Jesus as saviour, but now we are called to worship Him as creator[Patience to the saints who obey the commandments of God]. I believe there is a further blessing in keeping the fourth commandment as it says, because worshipping the creator on a sanctified day has to be better then worshipping any other day according to man's own moral conscience; for God's foolishness is wiser than any man's wisdom. Man still needs a moral code to live by, and keeping it is apart of faith and works combined. Just a reminder there was never an issue in the new testament in keeping it, but on the issue of legalism; for total obedience to Go's holy law is not legalism, but it is a form of ultimate worship.
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I love debate as well. There is much I do not know and I can be a simpleton, so please bear with me.
So do you keep God's commandments? In my opinion, I think the ultimate worship would be to pray without ceasing always and also to worship all the time...everyday is the sabath. But I also think that's impossible. I feel as though you seek justification for works and obedience to God's word and law. However, you may be just expressing your love and admiration of the sabath...don't know. In many accounts, the Bible indicates that if we vain creatures are obedient and do good works, we boast, and I do it everytime actually. I agree with you that "there is a further blessing" in keeping true what God says is good, just, and righteous. But we must be careful to remain humble. Christ truely was amazing, in a very human way, to be God and man at the same time. To be King and servant, but servant first and foremost. Praise the Lord!
Hope you don't mind me chiming in on this discussion. I have a keen interest in the Sabbath topic. But I find that telling others about the Sabbath day is kinda like someone who has stopped smoking trying to convince a smoker to stop. First of all, they don't like to think about giving up an entire 24 hours to devout to God. Afterall, people are very busy with so little time for themselves. The weekend is the only time they have to do their own thing. Second, they find no motivation to do so. But the motivation to keep an entire day devouted to God can be the same as the motivation to stop smoking. Love. Afterall, a smoker, or drukard for that matter, truly loves the vice more than the family.
There is so much information out there about the harmful effects of smoking and drinking but because of habit and addiction people find no means to stop. It is difficult for humans to give up things that "feel" good even if they are slowly killing them. What they need is a savior. They need to put their focus on someone or something else that can work deep inside of them to draw out their heart and free them from the addiction. The same is true for the Sabbath day.
When I first fell in love with my wife I wanted to be with her all the time and to do whatever pleased her. I lost myself in her. I think this is what God wants from us as well. He has given us the demonstration of his love for us at the cross. He wants us to comprehend that love. This act was to draw all men to God. Once we fall in love with Jesus then it becomes a natural thing to desire to please him and be mindful of him always. Without that reciprocal love it is impossible for man to render any acceptable service to God. Yet, even so, our service is imperfect. That is why we are to focus our attention on the merits of Christ rather than our inability to keep his law. This is a real struggle in any debates that discuss keeping the commandments. People so often focus on the doing rather than the loving. But Jesus said, "If you LOVE me, keep my commandments." He didn't actually say to keep the commandments as a means of salvation but rather that our obedience to His eternal principles demonstrates our love for him as opposed to our love for sin.
Think about it. We can serve only one master. Either we love the world and the things in the world (the lusts of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life) or we love the Father. The two are opposed to each other so we can't love both. If you serve yourself then you show your love for the ways of the world. But, if you love God then you overcome the world through persistent and continual prayer for strength to resist the temptation and obey God instead. John wrote in the gospel that "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God." And truly the sons of God are they which are chastened by God. If we have no father we are bastards. But if God is our Father then we can expect he will chasten us and lead us in paths of righteousness.
So when you speak of keeping God's commandments, please don't think of it in legalistic terms. No one will benefit from trying to earn salvation. We know from scripture that we all come short of the glory of God and we all sin. But if we keep our eyes on the cross and contemplate the love of God for each of us and the amazing gift of his son to save us from our sins, then our love for him will grow and we will willingly allow him to enter into our very hearts. And, if Jesus lives in our hearts then truly our life will be lived in accordance with his life. Peter says we can be partakers of the divine nature. If Christ lives in our hearts by faith, as Paul states in Ephesians, then truly we will not sin but keep the commandments of God with joy, as John states in his first letter.
I agree with what you are saying. My only difference would arise in the case of a Christian who is not following God's commandments, does not serve God, sins a lot (mainly lust & pridefullness), and most definitely does not keep the sabath. Yet in all that he deeply loves God, wants to do right, and naturally he does still desire to please God and be mindful of God always. In fact it is his sin and failure that keeps him dependent...like a drug. Christians should be dependent on God.
You quoted the bible and said: "Either we love the world and the things in the world (the lusts of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life) or we love the Father."
What about this dude?
This has always been the great dilema for me. Depending on the day, I am often that guy. I often times do not feel like a Christian. BUT I love God with all my heart, mind, strength, and soul and I still cannot love God the way he deserves to be loved. I cannot be perfect. I cannot even be decent at times. I love God much more than the world...but I still lust and I'm still very prideful.
I guess this is all to say that I do not want to ever pretend that anything I say, write, or do will ever make me better than anyone else in this world except the gift given to me by God through Jesus Christ. That's not to say...don't strive to be a better person...don't try accomplish goals...don't have spiritual achievements. But I cannot pretend that I'm doing everything I need to do ever. But I have to believe in God and His promises despite myself. I have to believe that Jesus still loves me despite it all. Why?
I was not designed to be alone to fail as I do everyday. I was designed to be in and a part of the body of Christ, the Bride, the Church. Jesus LOVES His adulterous and disobedient bride and always will.
It seems the person in your example may be confusing temptation with sin. It is not a sin to be tempted? Even Christ was tempted. But temptation becomes sin when we are drawn away by it to think or act upon it. Thoughts can be sin just as Jesus stated that lusting after a woman was adultery in the heart. But we are to think on pure things and be constant in prayer.
How can we sin if we are depending upon Jesus and growing in grace? Yet, we often fail to live as God would have us live. I believe that most of our problems stem from unbelief. We trust our feelings too much and since we don't feel good we get discourage and may even start to think that our walk is the normal walk. But our standard is Jesus. We need to take our eyes off of self and look to Jesus. We need to live by faith and not by sight. We need to trust the promises of God and not our feelings. We feel like sinners but God says we are his children and have died to sin. Therefore, we should live unto righteousness and sin not. Do you agree?
Yes, God loves the sinner. And he loves his imperfect church. But sin separates the person from God. And sin must ultimately be destroyed.
It would appear that those who do not overcome the world will have their names removed from the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
And everyone whose names are not written in the book of life will have their part in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
See what is said about how we used to live our lives. As the text says, "such WERE some of you."
1 Corinthians 6:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
When we walk in the spirit of God our lives will be different from those who walk in the flesh. Galations has lots to say about both.
Galatians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
As scriptures says, "Christ lives in our hearts by faith," and "the just shall live by faith." So the Christian walk is all about overcoming. Even overcoming our doubts and fears as well as our bad habits. We must not look to self and doubt, or to trust our feelings. We are to look to Jesus as our only means of salvation and though we are mindful of our faults we are not to dwell on our unworthiness.
This, however, does not excuse us to freely sin. If we claim to be Christ's and continue in sin then we make Jesus the minister of sin rather of righteousness, don't we? We can by faith walk as he walked, right? Else, where is the power?
Jesus became the second, and last, Adam because the first failed. We are born of the first by nature. But we have been reborn in the second by the spirit. Let's stop thinking we are still naturally born rather and instead remember we are spiritually reborn.
Our only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Savior.
(Sorry this is kinda long. Would you prefer I simply reference the scriptures and you can look them up? I include them for convenience sake.)
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I was reading this morning and wanted to include 2 more scriptures in my last response.
1 Peter 1: 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
...and...
2 Peter 1: 3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Now, while we know that we are sinners we are to live as just men and women by faith. We don't live by sight but by faith. "The just shall live by faith," and, "Without faith it is impossible to please God." It pleases any parent when their children are obedient. They are displeased and angered when their children are rebellious and disobedient.
I hope that these verses help you, not to overcome in your own strength by the will of men, but to believe in the Lord Jesus to the glory of God and the salvation of your soul and that we all may live as obedient children doing the will of God and not our own will.
Where many Christians fail is in the exercise of their God-given power of choice. They do not choose to be a Christian. Oh, they may pine about their desire to do right but they do not make a firm decision to be a Christian. We are instructed to choose whom we will serve and admonished that whomever we serve that's whose servant we are. If we serve righteousness then we are the servant of the Lord. But if we serve sin then we are the servant of the devil. Let's determine not to serve sin any longer and then rely upon God to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
God cannot honor us if we do not believe and reach out to take hold of that which he has promised by his word. Just as the lame man stood up and gathered his bed and walked, we too must believe and stand up and walk as Jesus walked. Remember, it is by faith. Do you believe? Then stand up and walk. The blood of Jesus has healed us if we believe. "Go and sin no more."
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Thanks Jeff. And I don't mind lengthyness or full scripture quotes.
I hear what you saying and I agree that we should daily die to the flesh and live and walk in the spirit instead. Basically live and connect to the other realm as often as possible. We ought to participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
I was thinking of your quote from Corinthians:
quote:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
To me Paul was saying...hey you were one of these wreched persons and now you're reborn, new, not that person anymore. Alive in the Spirit. God loves you and wants to help you. But after being washed, sanctified, and justified do you think these people were no longer sinning as before? I'm sure their sins were reduced to more minor sins, but...? I've never met a perfect Christian...and if I did, I probably wouldn't like him or her.
SO...neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. But if you are one of those and accept Jesus, you are no longer that which you were. You're washed, sanctified, and justified. Correct? Even if you may "backslide?"
quote:We don't live by sight but by faith. "The just shall live by faith," and, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
Faith is what God really calls us too is it not? Not proper behavior right? As you said...it is the truth that we must stand on, not our feelings. So how much do we really know about this whole idea of perfecting ourselves?
I say all this to not attempt to make it okay to be a horrible sinning person and get away with that...and just have more grace abound. By no means! I'm trying to draw attention to what it is we draw attention to.
If you look at sin as merely not keeping the law it can seem rather trivial to fall down now and again. After all, God is merciful, right? And, no one is perfect, right?
But think of sin in this way. The law is but a glimpse of God character. He is righteous in all His ways. So if we sin we are demonstrating that in that area of our life we are not in harmony with God's will. While we pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," we really want out own way and that is why we fail.
It was by faith that the lame man rose up and carried his bed away. Jesus spoke and created the earth. He spoke and healed the lame and opened the eyes of the blind. There is power in His Word. If we had just a little grain of living faith we would hear the words of Jesus and be able to overcome. "Be you perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Be ye holy as I am holy."
Yesterday my wife was telling me her horoscope said she was naturally controlling and impatient. I said, Yes, that is what a man says you are. God says you are his child. Who are you going to believe?
We profess to the world that we know God and Jesus Christ. But how does God view our relationship. Will he say to us, "Depart from me ye that work lawlessness. I never knew you." We can fool some of the people some of the time but we never fool God--who reads our thoughts and intents.
1 John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We often hear tossed about the term "legalism." But did you know that most of us are actually legalists? Yes, the type of believe we express is based upon works--receiving based upon what we can do. We have faith. We were baptised. We repented. We accepted Jesus. We confessed. All of our actions gain us something. We trust in what we can do rather than experiencing a living faith. It explains why we so often fail. We circumscribe our own religious box and will not go beyond the limits. We are uncomfortable trusting God completely and taking His Word as it plainly reads.
Just examine this simple concept expressed by Paul. "We judge thus; that if one died for all, then were all dead." This is the gospel in a pea pod. Do we appropriate Jesus' death as our own? How then can a man who has died to sin sin any more? In another place Paul writes that we are to "reckon ourselves dead to sin." In yet another place he writes, "Our old man died." And again, we are "a new creation."
Think about that truth! If we live in the spirit can the spirit of God sin or is it our old natural man that sins? Who then is alive and living in us when we sin? Our natural man of death or the spirit of life? And one reason we are so weak and vunerable is because we only partially belief the word of God but are rather credulous when it comes to Satan's lies.
And, in summary Paul tells us why Jesus died for us. "That they which live should not henceforth live any longer unto themselves, but unto him who died for them." There is so much more we need to surrender of our lives. But we feel to give it up would cause us great loss. But Jesus said, "It is better to enter into life maimed than to go into hell whole." We have lots to give up still! I guess the question is, will we give up everything to obtain Jesus? Just how valuable do we esteem Him?
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
quote: 1 John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What does this mean to you? What are His commandments?
Consider: 1 John 2:9-14
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. 12 I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. 13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father. 14 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
To me this is clear that loving is our commandment. If we are saved, it is because of Jesus alone. If we are saved, we love.
quote:Just examine this simple concept expressed by Paul. "We judge thus; that if one died for all, then were all dead." This is the gospel in a pea pod. Do we appropriate Jesus' death as our own? How then can a man who has died to sin sin any more? In another place Paul writes that we are to "reckon ourselves dead to sin." In yet another place he writes, "Our old man died." And again, we are "a new creation."
We have died with Christ. This is why we live. That is fact. What sins is our flesh.
Romans 3:9-20
9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The law is to expose sin and for Christ to fulfill. This is how I see things.
We will sin. But it will not be our end. Thanks be to God through our savior Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Dear Eternal's family, This conversation began by talking about the Sabbath and here we are, bouncing back and forth, just outside of the communion and of the celebration of eternal living here and now, where the simplicity of our devotion is the never ending experience of the Sabbath. Christ-Jesus is risen and that is true 7 days a week. More than that, Christ- Jesus is ascended, He is exhulted, He sits at the right hand of God until His enemies have been made into His footstool by the Father. More than that, God has transferred us from out of the domain of darkness and into the Kingdom of His beloved Son of whom we have been made partakers of. In my personal language, this means that I am alive by the perpetual celebration of Easter at the heart and in the spirit connection within the Land of Immanuel. Such victorious reality is what God is calling His New Covenant's experience of the Sabbath, where from He awaits for the human race to seek Him with our whole heart. I genuinely do think of myself as the chief sinner of our present times on earth. If anyone wish to slug it out to compete with me and to expose all that I've done wrong since the Lord came to me at 16 years of age, 32 years ago, there is enough for anyone to taste death itself each slep of the way, for that is what sin does, no matter how big or small the sin is. In the original Greek, the word sin was used for archers who missed the mark. The law of sin and death is the law of the nature that we are born with from mom and dad. Because of the law of sin and death, I do not become sinner because I sin, but rather, I sin because I am a sinner. Yet, "there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ-Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ-Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. Our will power cannot set us free; only the law of the Spirit of life.
Why do we not overcome? The Covenant of the Eternal is said to be: " For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Notice how we are told by Jesus: "You shall love the Lord with all of you heart, all of you mind, all of your soul and all of your strength and..." God the Father comes and puts His laws in my heart and in my mind. Jesus is clear that there also is the soul and the physical body left to save. That is where the paradox sets in and keeps us defeated. We need to see that once God did His part and that we are then given all we need to conquer our souls and bodies from the gift of His laws into our heart and spirit with the blood and the flesh of the Lord. Together, the flesh and the blood of the Lord amout to materialisation of heaven on earth, for those who know how to feed from seeking, finding and serving Him, within His assembling. The word service is there because Jesus siad: "“My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work." Jn 4,34
WHAT IS MISSING THEN? "How many times shall I forgive?" Peter asked. Jesus answered saying, "seventy times seven times a day." The state of overcomers is to live in the completion of God's mercy toward one another. The experience of victory is personal for each one of us but it is individually conquered by the one Chris-Jesus, the ONLY begotten Son of God. The assembling is the ongoing strengthening of our Lord's glory in our midst. His glory is God's ingredient of unity. Do not forsake the assembling that God is up to, not us. This assembling is the Ministry of reconciliation of the son of man and of the Son of God in the oneness of the Christ of God. "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor 5,18-21
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” Jn 6,53-58 To me, this passage speaks of the Chuch's government on earth under the Head. The governing order of the Body of Christ-Jesus is to feed from the Head inwardly and from one another, since He lives in you and I. There is a moment of remembrance known as the Lord's supper. This does not address the Lord's supper but rather, our live communion to one another in the assembling of God's people into the Bride of His Son, every day, all the time. Our being in Christ means that His blood and His flesh are in me and in you and we are in His. When sanctified by His presence, our contact to one another is given the opportunity to feed the eternal nutrion from His presence in each one, for He lives now. Forgiveness of one another is by drinking the blood of our Lord that flows on and on, back and forth between us and eating the flesh of the Lord is the obediance of the substance that brings the deliverance of what we get to be forgiven. That substance if known as faith. As we seek to personally grow in the sacrifice of worship, we are then strengthened in our discerning of God's perfect will and we feed together with the perpetual sacrifices of praise and of thanksgiving, brought to us by God's assembling work. This ministry of reconciliation is the one mission of the Church that removes the prevailling of the gates of hell on our service's pathway.
DISCERNING BETWEEN THE SUFFERINGS OF THE WARFARE AND ACTUAL DEFEAT Fears and doubts on the inside, struggle and hardships on the outside are what goes on for those who seek to serve the Lord and His Kingdom's presence on earth. Because maturity of the faith is so rare, our experience of the warfare is constantly subjected to confusion. Paul is quite clear as to the intensity measurement of what we go through on the front lines: 2Cor4,11-12 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So then death is working in us, but life in you. Gal4,19: My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you.
TRYING TO CLIMB CALVARY IS A UNIVERSAL MISTAKE OF CHRISTIAN IMMATURITY
All authorities have been given to Jesus-Christ, where He sits, on His throne at the right hand of the Father.Mt 28, 18-20 We have been seated together in the heanvenly places in Christ-Jesus.Ep 2, 4-10 Our job is to walk down Calvary from the throne, with all power and authority, not to climb up, reaching for it! That is how the positioning comes to me for the Cross to be efficiently the power of God for those who are being saved. Note that the "being saved" is different from "having been saved". God's part of His Covenant covers my heart and spirit. Left to be saved are soul and body. The only way to experience the power of the Cross, is to first deny myself. This self is the same root word in Greek as life and soul. I do not deny the divine nature, I move with the divine nature placed in my heart and spirit for eternity, having been saved. My heart and spirit are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ-Jesus in the heavenly. My body and soul are, until regeneration of resurrection gets minitered to them daily from my heart and spirit, thay are dead to the treasure of God in me. The exercise of denying myself is impossible to do if there is not a part of me to do it from. It is an exercise for those to whom eternal life has been already given. That is how to deny myself gets to be possible and increasingly desired by each child of God with unspeakable gronings from the Holy Spirit because waiting for me daily, is the freedom from that death of soul and body as I pick up the Cross with the all-inclusive death of Jesus to deliver me from the old man so that I may follow Him, now, in this very moment on earth when no hope of sinlessness is in sight and there's a state of no light, of no life and of no reality engulfing all my senses. "Put off the old man and put on the new," Paul says. Denying myself, picking up the Cross daily and following Jesus-Christ after having been seated in Him on His throne of victory and exhultation in the heavenly places, is to be coming down from Calvary into my soul and body with experience of the Word of God becoming flesh in His Bride.
The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord and perfect love casts out all fears. Each new birth that God provides, needs to be nurtured within those who live with such maturity of the Cross in their lives, as the simpplicity of the devotion to our Lord Jesus the Christ of God. Phil 2, 12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 1Thess 5, 23-24 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. The experience and fellowship of sanctity spoken of here is my understanding of the mature "House Church". Our closeness with God within our inner chamber needs to live in the daily experience of the Body unity; not with a group working toward unity, but from unity to unity. The source of our togetherness is from having been seated together in the heavenly places in Christ-Jesus. Unity moves from glory to glory, from faith to faith, by faith for the faith. "He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." Ep 4, 10-16 Sadly, most of my life I have come across Christian leaderships who go a long way to deny any such possibility of unity of the faith, until Jesus returns. How can the victory of Jesus-Christ come into view, when defeat is preached and upheld by the "authorities" of the bible?
IN CONTEXT WITH THIS THREAD HERE, COULD WE SEE HOW THE LORD WOULD LEAD US TO... I am seeking help and support in prayer and in wisdom to further the Kingdom from where I am. So if you'd like to read how the Lord is leading me in the warfare and find out if the Lord is leading you to support my calling spiritually first, here are 2 letters that I wrote this week in a yahoo group of "humanist globalisers" who are open to God Himslef but who cannot afford an interpretation of God, because of the level of security that we operate into to keep an eye on where we are going with our ideas. One letter serves to explain and the second is the practice I am heading into that was signed on Mar 31, 2006. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lovingGod/message/266 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lovingGod/message/270
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
quote: What does this mean to you? What are His commandments?
God's will is expressed in His commandments. Therefore, our command is to do His will.
quote: To me this is clear that loving is our commandment. If we are saved, it is because of Jesus alone. If we are saved, we love.
Yes, love is the basis of God's government because it is His very essense. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to love God. The second was to love our fellow man. Everything else "hangs", or derives, from these two greatest commandments.
quote: We have died with Christ. This is why we live. That is fact. What sins is our flesh.
While it is true that our flesh provides the means for us to sin it is clear from Jesus' teachings that it is what is in the heart that defiles us. Temptation does not produce sin in us it merely manifests what already exists in the heart of man. Paul says that the carnal mind is at war with God and is not and cannot be subject to God's law. (Romans 8:7). If we were truly "dead" in the natural sense then we would cease to sin (Romans 7). We are to "reckon" ourselves dead to sin but alive unto God (Romans 6). Without love for God being supreme in our lives we cannot die to self. We can't submit ourselves to God. In fact, we can't even give our hearts to God. But scriptures tells us that if we have a faith that works by love then we will be drawn to Christ and everything else will fall away that we may "obtain" Jesus. (See Gal 5:6). No price to self will be too great if we properly esteem the value of Jesus. This is the power of the gospel at the heart of which is the commendation of God's love to humanity as portrayed upon the cross (Romans 5).
quote: The law is to expose sin and for Christ to fulfill. This is how I see things.
Think of why God gave the law, the Ten Commandments, to Israel at Mt. Sinai. It wasn't to increase their sin as some say but rather to expose their sin which in essense increased their awareness of sin and in a sense sin itself.
The natural man doesn't know the love of God so in His mercy God tells and shows by pretext and example the works man was predestined to do. And by the commandments God instructs man as to what constitutes sin and what he is not to do. Since man knows what to do and what not to do then he is left without excuse before God (Romans 3). He cannot say, "I did not know." Therefore, all men become guilty before God because all have sinned and transgressed God's law--the law of love.
quote: We will sin. But it will not be our end.
We, as carnal creatures, will sin. We cannot help but sin. That is our nature. But the gospel of Christ makes exceeding great and precious promises to us that we may become partakers of the Divine nature and overcome the lust of the flesh (2 Pet 1). We are not left to fight in our nature but we can by faith have Christ, His spirit and nature, abiding in our hearts (Eph 3). James says we sin when we are drawn away. Let's pray that we may flee the devil and draw nigh to Christ (James 4).
It looks like we agree on some stuff. Praise the Lord. That seems so few and far between in these forums...not this one in particular, but just online Christian discussion groups in general. Anyway, I have a few questions.
quote:While it is true that our flesh provides the means for us to sin it is clear from Jesus' teachings that it is what is in the heart that defiles us. Temptation does not produce sin in us it merely manifests what already exists in the heart of man.
Could you explain this further? It seems like there and two "roots" of sin in your comment.
quote:The natural man doesn't know the love of God so in His mercy God tells and shows by pretext and example the works man was predestined to do.
Did/do you mean that natural man did not or does not still know the love of God?
quote:God's will is expressed in His commandments. Therefore, our command is to do His will.
There are some contradictions in this perhaps...here me out. It must be God's will for people to die and be killed i.e...the Crusades, the Holocaust, AIDs, world hunger, world poverty, etc. It has been eveident that throughout history God has at least allowed horrible things to happen. Therefore I believe both good and bad (at least in our eyes) are encompassed in God's will. I also don't believe we are messing up His will, though we could be aiding it more effectively. Regardless, we should either get on board with it and be saved, or write it off and suffer the consequences. Suffice that to say, I don't agree with you. I believe God's will is His and incomprehensible. I pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I pray to Him and ask Him to guide me. I pray to be His hands and feet. But I will not kill, or starve people, or not give to the poor, or not help support the fight against AIDs, etc...even though those things are part of God's will. But I WILL accept what happens on earth and I will deal with what happens. I will submit to His will.
So I believe explicitly that our commandments are to Love God/Jesus and love our neighbor/brother. I believe God's will is something different. Of course, what do I know.
I see your post to contain 2 major points that I wish to address. One can be summerise when you say: "It has been eveident that throughout history God has at least allowed horrible things to happen."
Indeed, this is true. The horror began when God the creator's voice and humans attention broke away from the point of communion. When deceit and evil had seduced humans away from the communion at the time of the fall, the rejection caused the curse upon humanity of no longer knowing the presence nor the voice of God. Paul says: "...the body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1Cor 15, 41-49 Because God's holiness cannot be compromised, even we, as Christian workers are called to execute with God amongst ourselves such horrific disciplines as to: "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Cor 5,1-5 And: "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?” She said, “Yes, for so much.” Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things." Act 5,1-11
The core of your other point is when you say: "I believe God's will is His and incomprehensible"
This is true for the natural man but nor for those who have the Spirit of Christ in them. There is God the creator Who holds the supremacy over all things visible and invisible and then, there is the supreme being Who reveals Himself by making me, you and whomever He chooses to call, His children in Christ. Seeking to understand the will of God the creator from the natural man is as you say, incomprehensible. But to us who have been given repentance, forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, Paul says: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written:
“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God." 1 Cor 2,7-12
LINE BETWEEN THE NATURAL MAN AND THE SPIRITUAL MAN 1Cor1,18: For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Cor1,23-35: ...but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Cor 1,27-31: But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.
GOD'S VOICE At the bottom of a mountain, God provided Moses and the people of Israel with an anecdote of what is the reality of hearing God's voice with our physical hearing. Very little did He speak, but the people begged Moses to ask God to never speak to them directly again for fear that they would surely die. In several different explanations, anecdotes and analogies, Jesus and the apostles are all very clear on the fact that no one gets close enough to God to hear His voice, without being guided there by God Himself. Yet, Jesus is also clear that those who are His, know His voice. Humanity's attempts to mediate the divine and the human natures are and will always be left to re-invent God after our own limits, within which we cannot tolerate to hear His voice. A most instructive passage to help us is: John 10,1-3 ''"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.(Here Jesus is clear on the fact that spiritual experiences or manifestations do not add up to eternal life in themselves) To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hears his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. (When I became fluent in English, at about 22 years old, I began perceiving the Eternal's calling out of my name in its English meaning of "Seam blessed of God". This intimate manifestation have had me zeroying in on its spiritual activation of meaning and purpose, which is the Ministry of Reconciliation)
Jesus goes on: 4-18 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." This figure Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them. So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."
Is 30,18-21: Therefore the LORD will wait, that He may be gracious to you; And therefore He will be exalted, that He may have mercy on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; Blessed are all those who wait for Him. For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem; You shall weep no more. He will be very gracious to you at the sound of your cry; When He hears it, He will answer you. And though the Lord gives you The bread of adversity and the water of affliction, Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore, But your eyes shall see your teachers. Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
“ This is the way, walk in it,” Whenever you turn to the right hand Or whenever you turn to the left."
How close can the Lord bring us to one another here on the Internet so that we may be blessed to follow the sound and direction of His voice, away from what you describe when you say: "That seems so few and far between in these forums...not this one in particular, but just online Christian discussion groups in general." Are we ready to break ground from cyber space into the Kingdom's reality amongst ourselves' sanctification? I ask because to me, there is no more distance between us all from around the earth, than there is between God and each one of us here on the Internet. In other words, His will can be reavealed to us here and now as we seek Him with integrity. Are we ready to meet in the communion for the Lord to deploy the Kingdom Deep Net from within our interaction and all across www's reach? It would seem compatible with: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Mt 24, 9-14
His presence and Who He is is where His voice comes from, deep in our hearts and spirits, where only His Fatherhood can fit, along with the sviourship of Jesus and the comfort of the Spirit of holiness. As examples of hearing God's voice, I've recorded some vivid, clear-cut memories of when I received the spoken word of the Lord at: http://www.openleader.com/index.php/LovingGod/HearingGod
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
Benoit, I believe it was TragicRock who wrote those words you quoted.
TragicRock, I am going to try to clarify what I said earlier.
You wrote,
quote: "Could you explain this further? It seems like there and two "roots" of sin in your comment."
I'll try. Our bodies provide the sensual perceptions that allow our minds to interface with the outside world. We are driven to please it through what the scriptures call the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. If we died we would cease from sin. (Romans 7:5-6, Romans 6:7, 1 Peter 4:1). Even our thoughts perish when we die. The brain is starved of oxygen and can no longer function. (Psalm 146:4, Eccl 9:10). Therefore, we can sin no more and the book of our life is closed until judgment day.
Scripture teaches that our natural man enters into death with Christ on the cross through baptism and that we are raised up a spiritual man. While we physically do not change we are to believe by faith in Christ's death that we too have died to sin just as He died once to sin. Then we are to live our lives unto God. Not because we FEEL different but because through faith we ARE different. We have become a new creature by the power of belief in God's word regarding the sacrifice of His Son.
Yet, the poor body cannot act without the brain. So it is truly the mind where sin resides because the mind devises the plans which the body merely carries out by instruction from the brain. Of course, the scipture depicts the "heart" as the seat of the conscience. Proverbs 23:7, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he." (See also Romans 2:15). But this reference is used metaphorically to describe a specific function "housed" in the mind. We know that the heart cannot think and that the conscience most likely exists in the frontal lobe.
Originally, we were not created to serve self. With the entrance of sin man became perverted. The mind (rational thought process) should have complete control over the body but instead the body mostly controls the mind--or at least the mind allows the body (senses) to control it. The mind is self-serving in that it allows the body (senses) to do what pleases it, e.g., eating, drinking, thrills, sex, etc. When scripture talks about walking in the flesh I interpret that as meaning that we do what pleases us rather than what God created us to do.
But to answer your question in a simple statement, the "root" of evil lies in the wicked "heart" of man.
I hope that was what you were looking for.
You also asked,
quote: "Did/do you mean that natural man did not or does not still know the love of God?"
The truth that I intended to convey was that because of sin the natural man doesn't comprehend the love of God nor partake of it. The cross demonstrates to man the love of God and draws even the carnal mind to God.
quote:"Therefore I believe both good and bad (at least in our eyes) are encompassed in God's will."
Now, regarding your last comments about the will of God. I do not believe that it is God's will that anyone suffer or die. Just consider the cross. Now I understand that He is Sovereign and could force His will upon us. So since evil things do happen God must also allow them. But simply because God allows some things to happen so that we may be exercised by them it doesn't necessarily mean this is His will for us. It may be His will that we learn by them but can we actually say it is His will that we suffer and die at the hand of sin?
Consider the example of a parent. Children can be difficult to control. We tell them, No, but they can exercise their choice and go against our will. Sometimes we let them learn the hard way yet it is not our will that they go through the pain and hardship. After all, we take great pains to keep them from it. It is their own stubberness and refusal to trust and obey us that causes them to suffer. So, then, it is their own misguided will and not our will. Does this make sense? Can you see that God is our Father and He often chastens us but we sometimes don't listen?
You did answer my questions most articulately. Thank you brother.
Benoit,
Thank you for your comments...most appreciated.
Revelation 20:4 ...I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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