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Many people have wrongly interpretted Col 2:16 to mean something different than what Paul was trying to teach. I want to use this space to begin to look at the Bible together to try to understand, collectively, just what Paul is actually trying to say.
We will try to answer these questions:
Were the Ten Commandments nailed to the cross
Is the Sabbath binding on men today or not
Here are the verses we will study. Anyone want to join me?
quote:Colossians 2 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
I am going to have to take this slow because I just discovered some new verses which I think are very relavent to this passage in the NT. But I am just now studying them and am not sure I can fully elucidate my thoughts. Plus, my father-in-law died of a heart attack Monday night so we are quite busy. I hope to lay this out for your review shortly.
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Hi Gentlemen, I believe we've greeted each other on a different subject. Again, Jeff, my condolence. I would like to share how I look at the Ten Commandments here. Although you started with Col 2:14-16, may I suggest to jump on to the whole chapter 3 before coming back to those verses?
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Hi Gentlemen, Sorry for late, I spent the weekend pondering how to make it sound more complicated but I couldn't. So here goes the simplified & the only version: Col 3:5, 8, 9 & 20 pretty well covered the last 6 commandments. Words like "motify" & "put off" are like "shalt not". I don't think there will be any argument in principle on the first 3 commandments. So the issue lies with the 4th....
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I agree. The issue lies with the 4th. All the passages in chapter 3 show the magnification of the law. They demonstrate that beyond the letter of the law is the love for one another such that if we posses this we will not be watchful for the DO's and DONT's but the love of Christ will flow from our hearts. And with out it we will be like sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
Jesus illustrated the principle with the parable of the two debtors that a right understanding of our true condition helps us appreciate the cross of Christ. Through the law is the knowledge of sin. Through the cross the enormity of our debt is more fully comprehended. Now read the parable, again.
quote:"There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?"
The more fully we comprehend our debt the more grateful we will be for grace. Do you see it?
So again I say that the law is not the enemy of the cross but anyone who tries to diminish sin in any way and the debt we owe is the enemy of the cross because it lessens our sensibilities to understand and appreciate grace.
Beware of the person who perceives in his own eyes that his sins are not that great. "Lord, I am thankful I am not like other men." He is on the downward path to appreciating grace less and less. Eventually, he will come to hold the Savior in contempt. It is those who feel their great need, "God, be merciful to me a sinner," who also love the Savior the most.
If you want to love Jesus more and more just take a look at yourself in the light of the law of God. Then turn to Jesus your Savior for redemption. When you know your debt, you will appreciate the price paid to redeem you.
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Exactly my point, Jeff. That's why I love to be with the Lord. Admitting that I'm bound by worldly affairs Monday to Friday, admitting that I even forget about Him a lot of times and forget to call on Him - I would try to make it up during the weekends - the Sabbath, to be exact...
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Many times, to find answers, I look to the major prophets and often the most enlightening is Isaiah. It seems in Is 58, God's heart is shown to us about the topic of any ONE day. In this chapter, God admonishes Hebrews for just bending their head on one day while their conduct the balance of the week is terrible. What then follows in Is 58 is what God expects every day.
I personally do not honor any day or month or so called holiday. The Holy Spirit took away such desires in that they seem to distract my spirit from the Lord directly, and personally. God treasures our relationship and we are to have no other God's before Him. He also said in lst John that by the anointing given us, we need no man to teach us, and I have found this to be oh so true.
I treasure every day as HIS, and look forward to the many ways He speaks to me---daily. I seek no man to be my ears, for that relationship belongs to Jesus alone as our one and only party between us and God the Father. Churches often hinder this or even kill it.
I wholeheartedly agree with you here! We have been conditioned for far too long to divide life into two "watertight compartments": the sacred and the secular, the common and the holy, or what we regard as belonging to the Lord and what we regard as belonging unto us.
But for new covenant believers ALL OF LIFE, seven days a week is to be lived "unto Him who died for us".
Isaiah 58:13 speaks of honoring the Lord, not doing our own ways nor finding our own pleasure, nor speaking our own words.
When we come to II Cor.5:14,15 we find that the love of Christ constrains us because we thus judge that if one died for all, then were all dead and that He died for all that they which live should NOT HENCEFORTH LIVE UNTO THEMSELVES BUT UNTO HIM WHICH DIED FOR THEM AND ROSE AGAIN!
That is, by no means, a one day of the week affair! It is to be a lifestyle that influences every area of life, every day of the week, every activity and every relationship! Indeed the standard of the new covenant is much higher than was the that of the old!
One could work to obey all the Ten Comamndments and fall far short of the contraint of love of which Paul wrote to the Corinthians!
The Holy Spirit's commentary on the two covenants is found in Galatians 4:21-5:1 where Paul seeks to instruct the Galatians saints and to warn them of the dangers and the bondage that are the inescapable consequences of desiring to be under the law:
"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage."
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Scripture can never contradict itself for it is the inspired word of God. When there are apparent contriditions we need to look for the problems in our own understanding of what we are reading rather than deny the inspiration of scripture.
With that said, I cannot help but see, in the light of two chapter 8's, that we have not correctly interpreted Colossians 2:16. The phrase "not under the law" has been misapplied to mean that "God has no law. You are free to do whatever you wish. God will not punish you."
Look at the two chapter 8's that overthrow this subtle deception.
This first chapter 8 confirms that the law is not abolished but takes up residence in our hearts and minds. Someplace it hasn't frequently had access to in the past.
quote: Hebrews 8 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Since the law of God is written in our hearts it has been elevated from the stone tablet. But does this mean we are not under the law or does it mean we have Christ, the sinless law bearer, dwelling within?
This next chapter 8 gives a clue as to what it might mean to be under the law. However, this is only one instance of being under the law. Certainly, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God so all are under the condemnation of the law--at least until they accept Christ as their Savior and are forgiven that guilt. Jesus took our sins upon himself being cursed for us.
quote: Romans 8 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The freedom from the law of sin and death is the freedom Paul dreamed of in chapter 7 when he said that in his mind he desired to obey the law but his flesh was continually transgressing it--such that he ended up doing the very things he didn't want to do. Why would anyone want to do something they knew would result in the loss of their life? No rational, sound-minded person would choose death when life was before them.
Now this last part of the 2nd chapter 8 reveals why we were under the condemnation of the law. Because of sin, we were all born with sinful natures, a carnal mind and carnal body. We needed to be reborn with spiritual minds while we still lived in our carnal (fleshly) bodies.
quote: Romans 8 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Why is it death to be carnally minded? The answer is in verse 8! Because the carnal mind is enmity against God. We were his enemies! And, the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God. Does our not being subject to the law of God disannul the law or does it condemn us to die as sinners? But the very last part of verse 7 shows clearly that we were in a desperate state. It says that the carnal mind cannot be subject to the law of God--"neither indeed can be."
Therefore, in conclusion, it is impossible for someone with a carnal mind to please God. This is why we needed a Savior to quicken our mortal bodies and renew a right spirit within us. We need a spiritual mind rather than a carnal, worldly mind. Jesus gives the soluton. "Come unto me and I will give you rest." He says, You will no longer be tormented by the law because I fulfilled the requirements of the law in my human flesh and thereby condemned sin. Now I will come and dwell with you so that my law may be in your heart and in your mind and thus I will fulfill my New Covenant with you just as I promised to do. Then, instead of not being subject to my law you will proclaim, "I delight to do thy will, O my God. Thy law is within my heart."
So, in all honesty, we need to keep looking to find the right interpretation of Colossian 2:16. The law is perpetual and just as we have risen from the dead, cold, rituals and formalism of our past religious state, the law has risen from the cold, stony, tablets and is alive in us by virtue of receiving Christ into our hearts and minds. The law that Jesus so perfectly fulfilled by love, for love is the fulfilling of the law, will be written in our hearts and minds by that same love with which Jesus has loved us.
May I suggest that we look to the context of Colossions 2 to understand that Paul is obviously talking about the ceremonial ordinances of the Jewish economy rather than the moral law of God which commands us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us? He is talking about the feast days, holy days, new moons, sabbath days, and meats and drink of the sacrificial system. Verse 8 specifically mentions "philosophy" and "vain deceit" and "tradition of men" and "rudiments of the world."
Although God instituted the Jewish economy and ordained it to be a living lesson book of the plan of salvation, if one were to reject Christ to follow the shadows of that Old Covenant, they would be performing nothing short of works. There is, and never was, any merit in the ceremonial system. Even the Jews are, and always have been, dependent upon Jesus for their forgiveness and salvation. The blood of animals could never remit any sin. Only the blood of Jesus is able. We understand this truth because they continually offered animals sacrifices day after day, year after year. But Jesus died only once.
That system of types and shadows in written ordinances was abolished at the cross of Christ as we are told in verse 14. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." And this preceeds the verses in question by only 2 verses. Yet, our eyes are blinded so that we cannot see them and we jump to erroneous conclusions simply because we haven't loved the truth enough to invest the time to study for ourselves. We accept the word of others but don't really know what the scriptures say. Isn't this a fulfillment of the prophecy which says that because they didn't receive a love of the truth, God gave them strong delusions that they should believe the lie? If you think it is not important for you to personaly know the truth then it will only be when it is too late that you discover the cost to yourself.
I wouldn't rely on what Bruce has said in his post. Don't put your faith in any man. I would take my Bible and open it for myself and ask God to show me what is truth. But don't be superficial and careless. God knows your heart. You cannot fool him. Yet, if you humble yourself and with a contrite heart ask God to show you the true meaning of these verses I am confident that he will hear your prayer and open your eyes. He loves you too much to allow you to be lost. If you will ask him, in earnest, then he will hear and answer.
You have come to home church for reasons unknown to me. Let one of your reasons be that you will no longer be led about by false shepherds. Pledge to seek the truth for yourself by casting your own eyes upon the very scriptures with an earnest prayer in your heart for understanding. There are so many things our pastors have told us that lay imperceptibly close to the truth yet are intended to gradually lead us off the narrow path. A single wrong conception of God and the plan of salvation may not be enough to cause us to finally accept the lie, but combine that with the multitude of errors that are out there today and you soon have a flood of water to undermind our foundation. We will not know what foundation we have laid until we are tried. So lets be diligent now to learn the truth and in such a way that we may defend it from scripture and recongize error as Jesus did in the wilderness of temptation. "Man shall not live by bread alone. But by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."
May God bless each of you as you look for these answers for yourself.
In your post above, you wrote:"The phrase "not under the law" has been misapplied to mean that "God has no law. You are free to do whatever you wish. God will not punish you."
What you have stated MAY be believed by some, but do you have any reason to believe that it is believed by any participant in this discussion??? If so, please state your reasons for this belief.
Certainly God has a law! Certainly God has laws! Certainly obedience to the law of God will be the hallmark of the people of God! Certainly the law is good if a man use it lawfully! Those who are in right relation to God are not lawless! The law was not given for the righteous, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane.... (See I Tim.1:8-11)
It is for such reasons that Christians are no longer under the law! This does not mean that they can be lawless with impunity! It means rather that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit! Romans 8:4
But a very grave error has been made by many who ASSUME that the Ten Commandments are "the law"! They ARE NOT! The Ten Commandments are referred to by 13 or 14 designations in scripture and "the law" is NOT ONE OF THEM!
Let me give you an illustration: The law that regulates the speed of traffic (60 kph) on the road in front of my home, has no bearing on the speed of traffic on a 4 lane highway 10 minutes away. Nor does the law that regulates traffic on that 4 lane highway (100 kph) have any bearing on the speed of traffic on the German Autobaun! So drivers on the Autobaun are not lawless when they exceed the 60kph or the 100 kph limits! Those limits have no legal or lawful application there!
In like manner, the Ten Commandments were given to the Nation of Israel. Nine of the ten are clearly communicated to all peoples including new covenant believers. But the 4th commandment (remembering the sabbath day to keep it holy, working 6 days and resting on the 7th day) has never, ever, ever been required of Gentiles (saved or unsaved) before or after Calvary!
So when I view every day alike (Romans 14:5,6) and seek to live unto Him who died for me and rose again (II Cor.5:14,15) 7 days a week, and have found my sabbath rest in Christ (Hebrews 4), I am not lawless for not keeping the 4th commandment which was never given to me and has no application to me!
Now, yes, the possibility does exist that my understanding of scripture on this matter is in error. IF you believe that scripture clearly teaches that all peoples of all times have a moral obligation to God based on inspired revelation in scripture to keep the 7th day sabbath distinct from the other 6, please demonstrate this with the appropriate scriptural instructions, statements commandments etc ADDRESSED TO ALL PEOPLE. If you do, I will openly and publicly in this forum acknowledge my error and I will become a 7th day sabbath keeper. You have my word for it.
On the other hand, if every command in scripture relative to 7th day sabbath keeping is truly addressed specificly to Israelites (descendants of Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob), are you also willing to openly and publicly acknowledge your error?
"He that is willing to do His will shall know of the doctrine...." John 7:17
But on the other hand, those who are unwilling to acknowledge the truth, God has no obligation to teach them anything more. (Mark 11:27-33)
The allegory in Galations is repeated in Romans 9 and 10. Paul talks about the Jews seeking the righteousness of God, not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. They Jews were in bondage to sin because they could never free themselves from it without Christ, whom they rejected. What can free us from the bondage of sin is having the righteousness of God in our own hearts and minds. This is the essence of the New Covenant. We choose to be bondmen when we reject Christ and struggle against sin in our own strength. We choose to be freemen when we receive Christ into our hearts by faith and his character is stamped upon us. His righteous life, for he fulfilled the law and did no sin, will be written in our hearts and minds by the golden chords of love.
Adam transgressed God's law and brought death upon all men for all have sinned since Adam. However, Jesus, as the second Adam, kept God's law and by his righteous life purchased life for all who exercise faith in his atoning sacrifice. Here is yet another picture of bondage and freedom.
It should be ultimately understood that Christ did not need to die to forgive our transgressions. He could have pardoned us. Temporal judges exercise this judicial right all the time without incurring the penalties of the law themselves. They waive the penalties leaving the law unsatisfied. Is God less powerful or more constrained than they? No, he answers to no one. Temporal judges answer to the republic. The reason Christ chose to die was to establish his law eternally as righteous and just showing that it could not be abrogated in any way and that the penalties could not be dismissed. Because he would not, could not, remove his law he necessarily had to accept the penalties of our transgression himself. For this reason, he took upon himself the likeness of our sinful flesh for the sufferning of death that he might taste death for all men. For all men! Now I ask you, does God care whether we obey? He will never die again, so the answer is, Yes! There remains no more sacrifice for sin if we fail to receive his first.
Hope this helps clear up some confusion on this topic. I would love to hear from someone who understand what I am trying to say.
I mentioned nothing about keeping the 7th day Sabbath. I can see the Holy Spirit is pricking you to bring that point out sharply in your mind. You clearly acknowledge the issue but cannot see it.
Herein lies the trouble: You said,
quote:Let me give you an illustration: The law that regulates the speed of traffic (60 kph) on the road in front of my home, has no bearing on the speed of traffic on a 4 lane highway 10 minutes away. Nor does the law that regulates traffic on that 4 lane highway (100 kph) have any bearing on the speed of traffic on the German Autobaun! So drivers on the Autobaun are not lawless when they exceed the 60kph or the 100 kph limits! Those limits have no legal or lawful application there!
This is a perfect example of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. When you see a traffic sign you think letter of the law. You are only concerned with not breaking that sign post. You are not concerned that exceeding the posted speed demonstrates than in reality you do not accept that limitation of your freedom. This reveals a rebellious attitude at work against the authority of the state to restrain your speed. Nor do you recognize that the spirit of the law is actually one law. It applies everywhere on every street in every country that has such laws.
The same is true with God's law. You cannot keep nine and break one because they are not separate laws but actually one single principal--the principal of love to God and man. If you list them out and say, well I will not steal or kill but I will make idols, then you are under the law in that you are keeping the letter of the law and not the spirit.
The state posts speed limits but they do not judge that you are rebellious against the state if you break one law. However, the same is not true with God. If you break one law it should be a warning to you that you are not in harmony with the spirit of God's law. If you keep several but break others then you are reducing the law of God to the letter so that you can pick and choose. Again, you are not keeping the spirit of the law. What if God, in his wisdom, has spelled out his law so that we might know when our hearts are not right and thus be able to come to him and ask for forgiveness and help. I believe he has done just that and by each of them, all ten, we can know if we truly love God and righteousness or if we still harbor some rebellion in our hearts. I believe that is the purpose of the Ten Commandments--so that sin can be seen for the exceeding sinfulness that it is. Yet, the principal from which all of these hang is two-fold--love for God and love for man. That is the true spirit of God's law. We could say that the Ten Commandments are the letter of the law, yet it is clear that if we break the letter of the law we are also breaking the spirit of that law. And, conversely, if we walk in the spirit of the law we are keeping the letter. However, keeping the letter of the law does not fulfill the spirit of the law.
BTW, the state assigns various penalties for transgressions of state laws. However, with God's law it is not the greatness of the act that constitutes sin. Nor does temptation produce sin. If we yield to temptation and break God's law it is only the outward manifestation of the evil that lies within our heart. This rotten heart is what God wants to heal. He doesn't want to shape our actions so that we go 60 where it says to go 60 and we go 35 where it says to do so. He wants to remove the evil, the rebellion, the enmity against him that exists in the carnal, natural, heart.
God wants us to obey him because we love him. Some commandments make sense, like do not steal or don't kill. Governments have adopted these in the name of peace. But what about that 4th commandment regarding time. My belief is, at this time, that God has given us the sabbath commandment to be a blessing to man but also to see if we are willing to give up that time to spend it with him. This is, after all, a 24 hour period. And the call is to rest in him and leave our daily activities behind. We cannot give this amount of time every day of the week. Else, we would not be able to provide for our own households because the sabbath calls us to rest, not work. And, another part of that commandment is to work 6 days. We are to be industrious and provide for our families and to help the poor. When folks tell me they consider every day alike, then I know that what they are saying is that they keep no day holy. At least not the way God instructed them to keep it holy. And, they are choosing their own time which is in defiance of what God asked them to do. Just as Cain decided what type of offering he would offer to God, these folks are offering God a sacrifice of their own choosing and convenience.
Each of his commandments are signposts along our path to heaven. At each waymark he looks into our hearts and judges our response. That is how he knows whether we serve him or the evil one. Nothing that defiles will enter into heaven. That is why we are still on this earth. We have not yet purified ourselves such as Enoch did and are therefore not ready for translation and the association of heavenly beings.
You wrote above:"I mentioned nothing about keeping the 7th day Sabbath."
But, Jeff, your original post in this thread asked two questions. The second was :"Is the Sabbath binding on men today or not?"
Yes, the sabbath is binding on men today! It is binding on the men to whom it was given! But is not binding on those to whom it was never addressed!
Jeff, do you cover your head whenever you pray or prophesy? If not, are you not disobeying a command of God? Does not this show that there is rebellion in your heart against God???
NO! This instruction was given to women not to men! Men were given the exact opposite instruction, i.e. to UNCOVER their heads while praying or prophesying!
In like manner, God gave many commandments to Israel that He never gave to other nations of people! Thus when Israelites fail to obey these commands it is evidence of rebellion against God on their part. But when other peoples do not observe commands that were just given to Israel, that is NOT evidence of rebellion against God! Their rebellion against God is demonstrated by their own disobedience of God's revealed will for them!
Jeff, do you believe that 8th day circumcision of male children is binding on all men today? Do you believe that the annual observance of the passover is binding on all people today? These were given to be observed by Israel perpetually, throughout their generations, forever. So these ARE binding on them! Do you hold these as binding on yourself? If you are consistent with what you claim relative to the sabbath and the Ten Commandments, you must! These things were not set aside by the work of Christ but were practiced and observed by new covenant believers (Israelites) after the death and resurrection of Christ.
But they were NOT required or practiced by Gentile believers!
I simply ask again, Jeff, are you willing to acknowledge publicly that every sabbath command in scripture is addressed to descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and that no sabbath command in scripture is addressed to a Gentile?
Your willingness to acknowledge the truth (or the lack of such willingness) is evidenced by your willingness or unwillingness to answer this simple question.
There is something fundamental that we are not seeing eye to eye on. The covering respresents authority not merely a hat or scarf. We are not to submit our consciences to mere men. We are to be in subjection to God as our King and Lord.
Seems we are continually going round and round on this issue: When you speak of Israel you think in terms of beggarly elements such as Colossians speaks of. When I think of Israel, I move beyond the Old Covenant into the New. If you believe Colossian 2:16 then why do you judge me? The reason we are not to allow men to judge us on these things is because they are shadows which have past away. Shadows are cast by real articles. Although the shadows have past away the real articles remain.
Now nowhere do we see that the command not to kill or steal or lie has passed away. It was not a shadow. In fact, in Romans 10, the same writer as Colossians (Paul) says that the commandments to not kill, not steal, not lie, etc..., are briefly summed up in the command to love thy neighbor. He goes on to say that love is the fulfilling of the law. What law did Paul just enumerate? He was quoting from the Ten Commandments. That is a part of the Torrah because Moses copied it from another source--the tables of stone written by God himself. Therefore, the Ten Commandments are a law unto themself. And, a very important law because it is the only part of the law which was written by God. And, it was placed inside the ark of testament whereas the other laws that Moses wrote by his hand were placed in the side of the ark.
In fact, not only is love the fulfilling of the Ten Commandments, sin is the transgression of the same. We know that love if timeless because even though prophecy fails, love will never fail. Therefore, since love never fails, the law must also never fail--because love is the fulfilling of the law. So as long as love exists, the law will be fulfilled.
Now, if you continue to dwell in the shadows we will never get into the light that is Jesus.
quote:I simply ask again, Jeff, are you willing to acknowledge publicly that every sabbath command in scripture is addressed to descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and that no sabbath command in scripture is addressed to a Gentile?
Bruce, I will answer your question if you will answer mine.
are you in bondage or free? In other words, are you a child of Abraham or a child of promise?
are you referring to the 7th day after creation which God blessed and hollowed and spent with Adam and Eve? Or, are you referring to the feast sabbath days which did not necessarily fall upon the 7th day and are no longer binding upon even the Jews just as animal sacrifices are no longer necessary?
Do you mean to ask if I believe there is no rest (sabbath) for the Gentiles?
You wrote:"There is something fundamental that we are not seeing eye to eye on. The covering respresents authority not merely a hat or scarf. We are not to submit our consciences to mere men. We are to be in subjection to God as our King and Lord."
Jeff, I Cor. clearly teaches that men are to do something while praying and prophesying and that women are to the the exact opposite! What are men to do? What are women to do?
You also wrote: Seems we are continually going round and round on this issue: When you speak of Israel you think in terms of beggarly elements such as Colossians speaks of. When I think of Israel, I move beyond the Old Covenant into the New."
Jeff, the Ten Commandments were NOT given to Israel under the new covenant! The Israel to which the Ten Comandments were given was a physical nation, the children of Israel! The Ten Commandments were NOT given to Israelites who were saved by faith in Christ, but to a nation of rebels!!!
You also wrote:"If you believe Colossian 2:16 then why do you judge me?"
Jeff, a number of times I have referred to Romans 14:5,6 and have continually allowed that if one regards one day above another, that is fine. He can do that as unto the Lord! So I have not been judging you! I have felt very definitely that you have been judging me and others who regard every day alike by your maintaining that the sabbath is binding on all men today!
You continued:"The reason we are not to allow men to judge us on these things is because they are shadows which have past away. Shadows are cast by real articles. Although the shadows have past away the real articles remain."
Here, Jeff, your misquoting of Col.2:16 reveals a crucial misunderstanding of what the text says! You refer to shadows (plural) and real articles (plural). But in Col.2:16 a plurality of observances (meat, drink, holy day, new moon or sabbath days) all are A SHADOW (singular), not of many things, but of ONE....THE BODY OF CHRIST! The "real articles" as you speak of them, are NOT "true Israel", "spiritual Israel", "the sabbath" or any such things! THE REAL ARTICLE is the BODY OF CHRIST!
You continued:"Now nowhere do we see that the command not to kill or steal or lie has passed away. It was not a shadow. In fact, in Romans 10, the same writer as Colossians (Paul) says that the commandments to not kill, not steal, not lie, etc..., are briefly summed up in the command to love thy neighbor. He goes on to say that love is the fulfilling of the law. What law did Paul just enumerate? He was quoting from the Ten Commandments. That is a part of the Torrah because Moses copied it from another source--the tables of stone written by God himself. Therefore, the Ten Commandments are a law unto themself. And, a very important law because it is the only part of the law which was written by God. And, it was placed inside the ark of testament whereas the other laws that Moses wrote by his hand were placed in the side of the ark."
Jeff, I never claimed, nor has anyone else claimed that the commands regarding killing stealing or lying have passed away! Nor have I claimed that the command to cease from work and to rest the sabbath day has passed away either! I have continually maintained that Israelites are to observe this forever! I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you believe that it is only the Ten Commandments which hang on the two commands, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." But the Lord Jesus clearly stated, "on these two hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS". Matt.22:40
You concluded:"In fact, not only is love the fulfilling of the Ten Commandments, sin is the transgression of the same. We know that love is timeless because even though prophecy fails, love will never fail. Therefore, since love never fails, the law must also never fail--because love is the fulfilling of the law. So as long as love exists, the law will be fulfilled.
Now, if you continue to dwell in the shadows we will never get into the light that is Jesus."
Jeff, you have misquoted the scripture again! Paul never, ever said, "Love is the fulfilling of the TEN COMMANDMENTS!"
Rather, he said, "Love is the fulfilling of THE LAW"! Here again, you have erred by assuming wrongfully that "the Ten" are "the law"! They are not!
Certainly the law is continually fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit! But scripture never ever says that "the TEN COMMANDMENTS are fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit"!!!
Finally, Jeff, I notice that you have totally ignored my question above which seems to indicate an unwillingness on your part to acknowledge the truth. Let me ask it again: "if every command in scripture relative to 7th day sabbath keeping is truly addressed specificly to Israelites (descendants of Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob), are you also willing to openly and publicly acknowledge your error?"
If you respond to anything in this post, please give a direct answer to this question! Either show where God requires sabbath observance of any but Israelites (descendants of Jacob) or demonstrate your willingness to openly and publicly acknowledge your error.
We must be writing alot simultaneously this morning! Have noticed twice that your posts are appearing almost simultaneously with mine!
You wrote:"Bruce, I will answer your question if you will answer mine."
That is good news! I will definitely answer yours and look forward to your answer to mine.
Your question 1.are you in bondage or free? In other words, are you a child of Abraham or a child of promise?
My answer: I am free and have been instructed to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. I am not to be entangled again in a yoke of bondage. Gal.5:1
As to being a child of Abraham OR a child of promise, I do not see these as being mutually exclusive! Isaac was BOTH a child of Abraham AND the child of promise! (Gal.4:28) The exclusive terms are "born after the flesh" and born after the spirit." (Gal.4:29)
Your question 2.are you referring to the 7th day after creation which God blessed and hollowed and spent with Adam and Eve? Or, are you referring to the feast sabbath days which did not necessarily fall upon the 7th day and are no longer binding upon even the Jews just as animal sacrifices are no longer necessary?
My answer: In this discussion I have always mentioned the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH. That is what I'm referring to. And I have also requested that you consider EVERY COMMAND in scripture relative to the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH. To whom are they all addressed?
Your question 3.Do you mean to ask if I believe there is no rest (sabbath) for the Gentiles?
NO, I do not mean that at all! I have continually referred to hebrews 4 in this regard! But this rest is NOT commanded, it is not binding, it is a fact! But the 4th of the Ten Commandments has the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH (not other sabbath feasts) in view. I mean to ask is the observance of the 4th commandment (resting from work on THE SEVENTH DAY of each and every week) binding on Gentiles? In other words, what scripture would teach me that by working on Saturday, which I often do, I am disobeying God's revealed will for me, a Gentile believer?
I am preparing an answer for you. I have an abundance of evidence to present. My challenge is to present it concisely and intelligently without confusing you even more. So it will take a bit of time to respond. I just finished replying to your other objection because I thought it would be quick one. I was wrong!
This is not at all a complicated matter! It is really quite simple. With a good concordance, gather all the sabbath commands together, check out the context and see to whom the commands are addressed.
There are nine such passages where sabbath commands are given:
(1) Exodus 16:23-29 is addressed to the children of Israel, see verse 15. (2) Exodus 20:8-11 is addressed to Israel after they were brought out of Egypt. See Ex.20:2 (3) Exodus 31:14-16 is addressed to the children of Israel. See verse 16. (4) Exodus 35:2,3 is addressed to the children of Israel. See verse 1. (5) Leviticus 23:3 is addressed to the children of Israel. See verse 1. (6)Deuteronomy 5:12-15 is addressed to the children of Israel. See verse 1. (7)Nehemiah 10:31 is addressed to the children of Israel. See 9:1. (8)Nehemiah 13:15-19 is addressed to the poeple and nobles of Judah, a tribe of Israel. See verses 15 and 17 (9) Jeremiah 17:21-27 is addressed to Judah, the Kings of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Not one sabbath command requires or binds a Gentile like you in Virginia or me in Ontario to rest from his labors on the sabbath day.
Are you willing yet to acknowledge the truth of scripture on this matter?
I am working on my reply. But I have volumes of information to cover so I am trying to reduce that to the most important items--which will still be of considerable size.
Let me just say quickly in response to your scriptures. These commandments were for the whole of mankind. But God had chosen the Israelites to be His people and the guardians of His oracles. He could not directly speak with the other nations because they would not listen. However, the Israelites were to display the glory and wisdom of God to every nation with which they made contact.
quote:Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
It is really no different from when Jesus confirmed his covenant with the Jews, or gave his disciples instruction not to go to the gentiles.
quote:¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The gospel, with its message of law and grace, is for all of mankind--every tribe, nation, tongue, and people. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
quote:And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.
Therefore, it is not a valid argument to contest that because Jesus gave instruction to those who would listen, that his message was limited in scope. After all, Jesus himself said to the woman of Canaan. "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." You know her reply about the bread crumbs. Because of her faith, she identified herself with the children of promise. And Jesus blessed her...
quote:Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
quote: But the 4th commandment (remembering the sabbath day to keep it holy, working 6 days and resting on the 7th day) has never, ever, ever been required of Gentiles (saved or unsaved) before or after Calvary!
So when I view every day alike (Romans 14:5,6) and seek to live unto Him who died for me and rose again (II Cor.5:14,15) 7 days a week, and have found my sabbath rest in Christ (Hebrews 4), I am not lawless for not keeping the 4th commandment which was never given to me and has no application to me!
The 4th Commandment contains two parts - to rest and to work. Ex. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. Surely, the concept of work is emphasized in the Epistles written to the Gentiles. This fact tends to be overlooked in this discussion and gives me reason not to completely dismiss commandment 4.
2 Thess 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Also, Acts 20 where Paul tells the church leaders that he was employed as an example to them. Another idea that often gets overlooked.
I am enjoying reading your comments. Peace to all, David Anderson
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The 4th commandment of the decalogue is the only commandment of the ten that is hotly contested. No other commandment of the Ten has received so much rough treatment at the hands of the clergy and in the pulpits of pastors. During the iconoclastic wars the 3rd commandment was removed and then restored, only to be removed again, by the Catholic church because of the veneration of relics so prominent in that religion. But when have we seen pastors rise up against the commandment of not taking the name of the Lord in vain? Or, have they ever preached against the commandments to not steal, or lie, or covet? What about the commandment to honor father and mother? Why then do the pastors teach that while all of these 9 are binding upon Christians today, the Sabbath, which celebrates the memorial of the rest God prepared for his people in Christ in much the same way we celebrate his flesh and blood in the communion, is not to be observed? This is the question which has come to this topic at this time. This is the root question from which derives the question I have been asked to answer.
The answer cannot be understood by the letter of the law but in our day must be, and can be, understood in the spirit of the law. This creates an abundance of evidence in favor of the Sabbath but at the same time it can be overwhelming. Thus, the challenge to fairly present this matter to the minds of all within the limited scope of an electronic bulletin board. Nevertheless, I am going to try to present some compelling arguments showing how the Sabbath is an essential part of redemption and that it remains a celebration of the redemptive work of Christ who is our true rest. I believe this will answer the question at hand while still fairly treating the subject matter of the Sabbath whose importance to our faith and rest in Christ has not been fully comprehended by the Christian world. But rather, has been presented to their minds, not as the blessing God intended it to be, but as a burden that man cannot bear. The Sabbath was made for man and was to be a delight. But through Jewish Pharisees, then ecclesiastical counsels, then Christian pastors, the Sabbath joy has been turned to grief.
The neglect of the study of the benefits of the Sabbath has lead to the rejection of the true rest, both spiritual and physical, which Christ offers us today because it has not been fully understood. Our minds have been prejudiced from the pulpit and we have been deceived into believing that the very day that God gave to man for a blessing can now, somehow, corrupt his faith and catapult him from grace to grave by its mere observence.
The evidence we have from creation week teaches us that God created the world in six days. Why is our week then seven days long? It is because when God pronounced his creation work "finished" he did so on the 7th day. Nothing was created, as far as is recorded, on the seventh day but a rest for man. Then the Lord blessed the 7th day and sanctified it, consecrated it, for man. So creation week was actually seven days in length. The Lord rested on the 7th day with Adam and Eve. This was hundreds of year before the first Isaelite. Jesus restated the purpose of the Sabbath when he said, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."
Sabbath in Our Future This presents just one instance of a Sabbath in our future.
For roughly six thousand years we have inhabited this earth. Two thousand years to the flood, then two more to the time of Christ, and now two more after the cross. Peter says that a day is as a thousand years with the Lord. If we account each thousand years as a day, then the last thousand years, the 7th 1000 years, should be the millennial rest for the earth. A time when the earth will observe her sabbath. She will be at rest. The principal is given in Leviticus.
quote:Le 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
The Lord will destroy the peoples of the earth for their wickedness but not by flood. And while the earth lay desolate she shall observe her sabbaths.
quote:Jer 4 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
You had asked a question of me a while back and I was sidetracked from answering your question. So I hope to do that now.
Your question:
quote:Finally, Jeff, I notice that you have totally ignored my question above which seems to indicate an unwillingness on your part to acknowledge the truth. Let me ask it again: "if every command in scripture relative to 7th day sabbath keeping is truly addressed specificly to Israelites (descendants of Abraham, Isaac AND Jacob), are you also willing to openly and publicly acknowledge your error?"
If you respond to anything in this post, please give a direct answer to this question! Either show where God requires sabbath observance of any but Israelites (descendants of Jacob) or demonstrate your willingness to openly and publicly acknowledge your error.
Sabbath Rest for All Mankind
First, let me say that just because you believe that the commandment to keep the 7th day holy was given only to the Jewish nation does not mean that you are correct. Let me remind you that God rested on the 7th day after creation and proclaimed that day holy. This day of rest was first given to Adam and Eve from whom all the human race has descended. Jesus reaffirmed this when he said, “The Sabbath (the rest) was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” It is reasonable to expect that God would have reminded the Jewish people to honor this day as well, as he has done with all of his people. And, who are God’s people, his children, the brethren of Jesus? “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
Abraham Entered into that Rest
Abraham enjoyed this rest, not because of his works but, because of his faith in God. God ask Abraham to go into the far country as he had asked his father before him. His father had obeyed and gone part way but Abraham spent his entire life living in tents, expecting to come into the promised land. The Israelites did not enter into that promised land, the rest, because they did not believe. However, we are told in Hebrews 4 that a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God today, and that there are those who are entering into that rest by faith. “There remaineth therefore a rest [margin: Sabbath keeping] to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”
Is Freedom Found Outside of Obedience to God?
In your reply to my question “are you in bondage or free? (In other words, are you a child of Abraham or a child of promise?),” you replied, “I am free and have been instructed to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. I am not to be entangled again in a yoke of bondage.” In the context you seem to be saying that Christ has freed you from keeping the law. But if this is your contention then you are terribly mistaken.
First, Christ died to make it possible for you to FULFILL the law--something a carnal mind cannot do. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” But “God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us…”
Notice that the carnal mind is enmity against God. This is not at peace with God. And, how is it at enmity with God? It is not and cannot be subject to the law of God. Therefore, having peace with God deals with being subject to the law of God.
Notice also that what the law could not do, God accomplished by sending his own Son in the likeness of our sinful flesh so that his righteousness might be fulfilled in us.
Second, freedom is not experienced outside of obedience to God. In fact, James says that God’s law is the law of liberty. “But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” Jesus asked us to take up our cross and follow him. The cross we have to bear is the one that puts our human nature to death. Only in obedience to God do we receive power from the holy spirit in order to accomplish that which God has ordained for our sanctification. “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”
Now, if the law of God is the perfect law of liberty, who is it that is in bondage? Is it he who is obedient to God in keeping his law? Or, is it he that does not keep his law? Is there any freedom outside of complete surrender to Christ? Did you know that Christ died on calvary to return to us the right to choose? Yes, without the cross we would have had no choice but to serve sin and experience final destruction with the author of sin. We would be predestined to take part in the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels.
Now, who is free and who is in bondage? Is a lawless [sinful] person free or are we only free when we serve God? Well, does the devil give liberty or does God? “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” Jesus came to free us from the prison house of sin and to let the captives go free. “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”
How do we serve God? Do we serve God by lawlessness, which is sin? “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” So if we yield to sin then we are the servant of sin. If we obey God’s law then we stand in its perfect righteousness which is of Christ. “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”
So how can Paul mean that the law of God is no longer binding upon us when he says “not under the law?” The whole purpose of Calvary was to cleans us from all unrighteousness and restore us to perfect peace and harmony with God. The forgiveness of our sins was only the start.
Sabbath rest, Baptism, Tithe, and Faith
Today, the professing Christian wants the easy road. They do not want to pay tithe so they refuse to see the purpose of tithe but look for loopholes in the law to justify their selfishness. But keeping the one tenth that belongs to God is considered stealing by God. We steal from God when we keep his portion. Also, keeping the 4th commandment requires that we give up time, a whole 24 hour period, to enjoy and contemplate the rest that God has enjoined to his people--those that obey him. Busy people do not want to give up their time.
We never belittle baptism. Some even believe that baptism has merit. But baptism is an outward confession of an inward conviction. Baptism symbolizes our entering into the grave a sinner and being resurrected with Christ a new man. Keeping the Sabbath day is also an outward confession that inwardly we have ceased from our labors and accept the rest that is found only in Christ. We refuse our own righteousness and acknowledge our need of His righteousness. There is no merit in keeping the day but there is a blessing to be had. We are commanded to work six days and take care of all our business. But when Sabbath comes we are to cease from all our work and enter into God’s rest by faith and obedience. Isn’t this exactly what James calls a living faith? A dead faith has no works to demonstrate the faith. A living faith manifests itself in works of faith. Keeping the Sabbath day is an outward expression of our faith in Christ’s atonement.
Can Resting From Our Works Be Considered Legalism?
It is a curious oxymoron for some to say that by entering into God’s rest by faith and ceasing from our labor we are actually working. They claim that those who keep God’s law are legalist and that they are free because they do not keep God’s law. We have already shown that lawlessness is sin and those who yield to sin are servants to sin.
The Sabbath rest is not a time for human labor. It is a time to rest in the promise of God. The Sabbath is a memorial of the rest that God has promised to those who obey him. But enjoying the Sabbath rest does not come to anyone who does not enter into that rest by faith in Jesus and the cross of calvary. If it is not of faith then it is sin and in this regard only it becomes salvation by human work which defines what legalism means.
But legalism can be found in other forms. One can also be a legalist who looks for loopholes in the law which seemingly excuse them from a particular aspect of the law. They are deceived by their human nature which recoils against obligation, responsibility, and authority. Jesus pointed out that the law is not merely a letter of restrictions but is a holy principal, the principal of love upon which the kingdom of God is founded. That principal springs forth out of a heart filled with the love of God. It is not merely an outward show of human will-power. Modifying the outwards behavior is the works of men but God is after the heart, to purify the heart, and to write his law upon it. Only then will it be pure and be able to proclaim, “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.” Jesus had this heart. “Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.” There was no sin found in Jesus but he keep his Father’s commandments.
Sabbath for Gentiles
Today, the New Testament believer will also have the law written in the heart. They too can proclaim, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” It is the New Covenant in which God has promised to write his law in our hearts and minds. This covenant was made with Israel and the house of Judah but Gentiles can take hold of it also by faith in Christ. “And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.”
So Gentiles, or strangers to the covenant of Israel, can take hold of that same covenant by faith. “At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.”
Gentiles may also enter into the Sabbath rest and cease from their human efforts. “Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.”
As Isaiah says, “Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”
A Very Serious Charge Bruce, you have accused me of spreading error by teaching others to keep the Sabbath. We may never settle who is right and who is wrong in our lifetime. But Jesus did tell us that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until the very end of all things. He also declared that there would be those who would teach others to disobey the law as well as those who taught to keep the law. And he described how each would be considered by those in heaven. “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
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