posted
There was and is only one day that God made holy. He has commanded that we remember to keep it holy. Now we cannot make a day holy, only God can. And, we cannot keep holy that which God has not first made holy.
It was the 7th day God pronounced holy at the end of creation week. No other day has ever had this distinction. Therefore, when I hear people say they keep every day holy I wonder who has made any other day but the Sabbath day holy? They cannot keep a day holy unless it was declared holy already. And only God can make a day holy.
God did not give us seven (7) holy days. God commanded we work six (6) days and rest on the 7th day which He sanctified and blessed.
When I was a servant of sin I willingly did what sin commanded me to do. Now that I am a child of God I am His servant. Through His commands I am kept from evil. For every time temptation confronts me I remember His command and I am halted in my steps. The Holy Spirit is my Comfortor and guide to lead me into all righteousness. But I must listen to that still, small voice even as I pray...
"...and lead [me] not into temptation; but, deliver [me] from evil. For Thine is the power and the glory forever."
posted
Howdy JQ Logan! It seems clear to me that the seventh was made "holy" and there are scriptures indicating that the seventh day will be a day of rest in the Millenial Kingdom as well. It appears that some people mistake resting for worship, which is nowhere mentioned in the forth commandment. Hence SDAs call for "Worship" on the seventh day and some protestants call for "Worship" on Sunday. Both seem to be speaking out of a mistaken and legalist notion about what worship is and also what Church assembly consists of. Worship is what u do with every single day of yur life and church assembly is not a service (liturgy) that we go to nor do I see any indication from the New Testament that it was something that people went to once a week(Acts 2:40ff et. al.)
posted
The fourth commandment makes no mention of "Worship" but instead speaks only of "keeping it holy" by "rest". My understanding then is that rest for your household and employees is the intent if the command whereas acts show us that the Church met twice a day seven days a week according to Acts 2 and following chapters Please let me know if I am wrong.
posted
I agree with Mick except for the future Mil period. Christ set up the kingdom that never ends when on the earth. There is not a future Mil period of rest; but we rest in him now. When Christ returns, it is to take his bride to the marriage supper and judgment for the rest-----not a second chance mil period for the wicked! He brings his reward with him; so we better be ready now.
posted
Hi faith!=-) OKay, i didnt mean to bring millenarianism into the discussion.(I"m a sorta pan-millenialist, I expect that it'll all pan out in the end.) Yur right of course, Jesus can come at any moment to get HIS bride and render thorough justice upon the inhabitants of the earth and so we are exhorted to be ready "pray and watch for you know not at what hour your Lord cometh." Now, as to Worship, it seems to me that everybody is speaking of worship in their meetings (and litorgical services) on one particular day or another and sidestep the resting part while in its place they say we gotto "worship" at their place, on their day. Is it me or does the bible seem to be saying meetings are for edification and are frequent while worship'n is an every day kinda thing we all are to be doin with our person (mind,soul, spirit and body)?
quote:Now, as to Worship, it seems to me that everybody is speaking of worship in their meetings (and litorgical services) on one particular day or another and sidestep the resting part while in its place they say we gotto "worship" at their place, on their day. Is it me or does the bible seem to be saying meetings are for edification and are frequent while worship'n is an every day kinda thing we all are to be doin with our person (mind,soul, spirit and body)?
Mick, I agree. We worship in spirit and truth now. How that could be seperated into a 2 hour time period once or twice a week, I can't figure out! Just as the church isn't a place you go. It is you, me and all the other believers!!
I see nothing wrong with remembering the Sabbath day (Sat.) as a day of rest; but see no legal requirements for "church attendance" on any specific day. Even resting on the Sabbath day can become legalistic and burdensome by those who require you do this and do that or don't do this or don't do that.
Faith and I have exchanged many posts over the past many months on many subjects. Though you may not have had the time to read all of them and perhaps may not take the time. Nevertheless, I will try to refrain from rehashing those same old arguments in favor of presenting new material for consideration.
Paul in his writing would sometimes say that he was giving his opinion of a matter and that he had no commandment of the Lord. When a mere man gives his opinion there really is no authority exercised over us. However, when God speaks His words are not mere opinions nor idle talk. Jesus said we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. That is every word! Not just a few words but every word. Every word of God exercises authority over us for He alone is Sovereign. He is Ruler, King, and Judge. His words are our commands.
When we are obedient to God then we show that we are His servants. When we are obedient to men then we demonstrate our loyalty to men. When we sin we manifest our servitude to Satan the author of sin. It makes sense doesn't it that we are servant to whom we obey? (See Romans 6:16)
Now today the "church" has adopted Sunday as a day of worship. But there is no command from God to do so. So if God has not given them instruction to keep Sunday holy then we need to find out who has if we wish to know the source of the tradition. Others who perhaps are confused as to which day is to be kept holy or if any day is to be kept holy have adopted another stance. They profess to keep every day holy. You often hear them quoting Romans 14:5 and proclaiming to keep every day alike--holy unto the Lord. This topic started here. We have already stated that only God can make a day holy and that we cannot. So if a day was made holy then we may "keep" it holy by not turning it into a common day but we cannot "keep" a day holy that was always common and never holy.
Others may argue that we should not observe any single day. Let me remind them of Easter or Christmas or Saint Valentine's Day. Surely there must be a word from God in scripture commanding us to observe these days and keep them holy. Otherwise we wouldn't do it, right? I mean, surely we would not keep "holy" a day that man instituted and yet forget the Sabbath day which God made holy at Creation to memorialize His perfect work and reminded His "church" to remember to keep holy at Mt. Sinai, right?
Of course, I am making a point here. We need to open our eyes and be honest with ourselves. We do keep days "holy" that have no other authority than an edict of men. My company observes about 11 Holi-days per year. These are days which men have designated as days of rest from our common labor. However, the Sabbath command from God cleary tells us not to be idle. The Lord abhors laziness and the early (NT) church lived by the principle that if a man didn't work he shouldn't eat.
Six days shall you labor, the command says. But one day per week has been set aside for our rest. And we can "rest" in our Lord on that day being fully obedient to His command to rest. Some may call this legalism but our Lord calls is rest--resting from our labors. Legalism is quite the opposite from resting from our labors. So Sabbath obervance is not legalism if you are "resting" in the Lord per His comamnd to do so. Resting on any other day but the Sabbath could be considered legalism though because if we are resting when we think we should rest instead of when God tells us to rest then we are doing our own work and not the "work" of God--which was finished from the Creation. (See Hebrews 4).
Now as to worship. I believe that God set apart the Sabbath day especially for worship because it is a whole 24 hour period when we are obediently doing by faith that which God has command us to do--rest from our common labor. All six other days we are commanded to work. So each of those common days would not provide the same uninterrupted quietness to contemplate the "works" of our Lord and to rest in His works apart from our own. We are to be busy six days and rest on the 7th--one day per week only. If we rest more often then we are not being obedient to our Lord's will. (Do you like the word will better than command? Some people prefer it. Yet, the Lord's will is our command, is it not?)
Of course, we should always have an attitude of prayer and worship. But no day but the Sabbath allows us to put aside our daily chores and spend a carefree day worshiping, praising, singing, praying, witnessing, etc..., as does the one day that God blessed for this very purpose--the Sabbath day. We may go about our work with a song in our heart, a prayer on our lips, and gratitude abounding, but other thoughts crowd them out throughout the day. So in this respect the Sabbath day is unique among the days. There is no other day like it.
Again, we should be more eager to stop observing Christmas, Easter, and Saint Valentine's Day than to dispute the Sabbath command. As stated earlier, these other days have no foundation other than edicts of men. And, my, how so freely we embrace them and unquestionably observe them and yet are so careless with regard to the Sabbath day that God instituted at Creation.
(Well, I will proof this later and make edits. And, I will write more later if given the liberty to do so and there is interest in the subject. In the past these subjects have nearly monopolized the board and the true focus of this board deals with Home Churches. This is a side issue in this cafe.)
It looks like u got some real good points. I’m thinking that on some counts, your trying to prove too much. Can i look at them with you? Yes? Thanks, i knew i could count on u. ;-)
<<when God speaks His words are not mere opinions nor idle talk.>>
I agree very strongly. I mentioned some references and had others in mind but was being brief because as a manly male I’m limited to only communicating 20,000 words per day and had nearly reach my quota, (I had to say “good night, I love you too.” later that night. Women have the advantage of having no maximum limitation but do have manditory minimum of 35,000 words per day!)
<<Six days shall you labor, the command says.>>
Whoa, now wait a second here. Lets look more closely. While it is true that the Lord considers sloth a sin and thus we are to serve the Lord faithfully and be diligent in our work, to say that He is “commanding” us to work the other six days IN the forth commandment is to add to scripture an eleventh commandment which is not recognized by Hebrew speaking Jews nor the first century church in the book of Acts nor modern scollarship such as demonstrated in the literal rendering of the Hebrew of Exodus Chap.20
“8 Remember the Sabbath-day to sanctify it; 9 six days thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work, 10 and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to YHVH thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man- servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, -- 11 for six days hath YHVH made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath YHVH blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it. -Young’s Literal Translation
If you take a close, slow read of this command (please do it again) you’ll see that this command is about remembering what to do on the seventh day not what to do on the other ones. The focus is the seventh day not the others. He merely states that all “your” work can be done in the other six days. The Father knows of our inclination to work a continual daily schedule without taking a breather and especially working those under our care without rest. That’s why He specifically mentions children, slaves and others. This rest prevents us from allowing our worry, obsession and addiction to our vocation or other work (including procuring the necessities of life) from getting in the way of the rest that our bodies and persons were intended to have on the seventh day. Further, no other biblical reference to the forth command ever even infers that we are to understand it to mean that God says it is unlawful to rest Sunday thru Friday. Please show me if I’m wrong here. I appreciate correction.
<<Now as to worship. I believe that God set apart the Sabbath day especially for worship because it is a whole 24 hour period when we are obediently doing by faith that which God has command us to do--rest from our common labor.>>
I agree that this day of rest is an ideal day for worship, focussed verbal prayer and spiritual edifying fellowship, these are great things to be given extra time for, but.....there is no command requiring us to do this on Saturday anymore than on the other days of the week. You have to say “I believe” because the forth command does not mention anything about “worship” but only speaks of “rest”ing.
<<All six other days we are commanded to work. So each of those common days would not provide the same uninterrupted quietness to contemplate the "works" of our Lord and to rest in His works apart from our own. We are to be busy six days and rest on the 7th--one day per week only. If we rest more often then we are not being obedient to our Lord's will. >>
Again, this eleventh commandment is not in the Bible and certainly not in the 4th Commandment. Such a command would prevent 10 min breaks at work and a rest at the end of hard day of work. The 4th commandment merely states that you have 6 six days where you can do all of “your” work. Look again at the Literal Hebrew, any Hebrew scolar will tell you there are not two commands in one here. However; even if I pretended that it was, this evidently did not stop the New testament church from meeting on Sunday, Monday or other days as is clearly seen in Acts 2:46
“46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” Some try to say that this was only a special occasion but the habit of meeting daily continued on in chapter 5 and appears to be the normal course in the epistles. This is not to say that it’s commanded but that its okay and desireable to assemble and worship seven days a week. Indeed why do we limit ourselves to three liturgical services? (Answer: Roman Catholic Tradition)
<<Of course, we should always have an attitude of prayer and worship. But no day but the Sabbath allows us to put aside our daily chores and spend a carefree day worshiping, praising, singing, praying, witnessing, etc..., as does the one day that God blessed for this very purpose--the Sabbath day.>>
It is true that a day off from our work provides an excellent opportunity for fellowship but as we see throughout the gospels, Acts, and such scripture in the epistles as Heb 3:13 speaking of BODY life as being something to occur “daily” not weekly. “worshiping, praising, singing, praying, witnessing, etc.” occurs in the true beleivers life every day. Not just an “attitude” but real actual worship. It seems to me that if someone only worships once or thrice a week, that the validity of his walk with God is called into question.
<<Again, we should be more eager to stop observing Christmas, Easter, and Saint Valentine's Day than to dispute the Sabbath command.>>
With this I whole heartedly agree. I have repented of these. I am concerned (just concerned) for those who would acknowledge the pagan origen of these drunken, orgiastic feasts and yet participate in them without a qualm that they might be acting the hypocrite.
<<As stated earlier, these other days have no foundation other than edicts of men. And, my, how so freely we embrace them and unquestionably observe them and yet are so careless with regard to the Sabbath day that God instituted at Creation.>
A valid observation of the contrast and perhaps double standard that some have. It is noted, and worth taking an impartial inventory of our motives for anyone who wants a clean conscience, is seeking God, or just wants to know the truth.
posted
Uh-hem.... To boil it down, the forth command defines its own terms. "Holy" means that that day is set aside for rest. Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. Worship is not even mentioned in the forth command, which indicates that it is not the idea the command is trying to get accross.
The other days, spoken of in verse 9, are "six days" where "thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work,...". It is not a sin to rest on these days (unless your just being lazy, when you otherwise ought to be working.)
And it is very clear that it is not a sin to assemble as the Church for fellowship or worship on any or all days of the week as the New Testament clearly spells out.
I agree that the church may assemble as often as it can/desires for fellowship or worship. Only trouble is that people are just too busy so mid-week meetings are typically poorly attended. But I think God is well pleased for us to come together often especially as the end of time draws near. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Hebrews 10:25
However, for the church to institute obligatory worship days seems contrary to God's plan. What if we met so often it prevented our common labor?
Earlier you had written: "To boil it down, the forth command defines its own terms. "Holy" means that that day is set aside for rest. Sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. Worship is not even mentioned in the forth command, which indicates that it is not the idea the command is trying to get accross."
Yes, the Sabbath is holy and set aside for rest. But I don't think it is a rest as in laying down to sleep. It is definitely a recreational rest having re-creative powers from God being it was instituted with creation week. Nor do I think it is an Eastern-style meditational rest in the sense we are to clear our minds of all thought--if that is possible. So the rest must be to contemplate the love of God and to enter into the rest that Jesus provides. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. Entering into His rest involves obedience and faith. "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:3.
So I think what we are left with is at least a form of worship on the Sabbath. And, indeed, the Lord himself called for such worship on the Sabbath. "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings." Leviticus 23:3. A convocation is a gathering together. For what purpose do saints gather together? And for all eternity the saints will gather to worship on the Sabbath. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Isaiah 66:23. And, with Jesus as our example in all things His custom was to worship on the Sabbath day. "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16.
I realize that as home church saints your desire is to break with all traditions of men. So it may be difficult for you to accept that God desires worship on the Sabbath. But we can't ignore God's will in the process.
Again, you wrote: "The other days, spoken of in verse 9, are "six days" where "thou dost labour, and hast done all thy work,...". It is not a sin to rest on these days (unless your just being lazy, when you otherwise ought to be working.)"
Of course, we rest when we are weary or sick. But the time we spend resting from our labors should be spent in worship to God. This doesn't imply formal church service. Many times Jesus took His disciples apart from the crowd and the work to enjoy a rest. Not just on the Sabbath day. But that time was spent in quiet contemplation of Jesus' teachings. They certainly didn't sit around drinking beer and watching sports. It wasn't a pasttime--as in simply passing time. It was devotion. Just stopping to "smell the roses" can be very spiritually uplifting.
But when you keep the Sabbath in proper perspective by always relating it back to the creation week the purpose becomes much more clear. The Sabbath was instituted, or made, at the end of creation week. From this we get our weekly cycle--no where else. Jesus said the Sabbath was "made for man, not man for the Sabbath." This is consistent with creation week. God created man on the sixth day and the Sabbath on the seventh. It is also obvious that Adam and Eve were the only humans at that time so the Sabbath day was definitely created, or made, for them. Something they would especially appreciate after their fall from grace.
Remember that God declared to man that becuase of sin the earth was cursed? "Cursed is the ground for thy sake...In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread." Gen 3:17-19. Six days they would labor to provide their necessity. But on the Seventh day they could stop and rest and remember that Jesus was their Lord and Savior who would one day deliver them from the curse of sin.
So I think the type of rest which we have become accustomed to in our day may very well be sin because of its very nature being full of vice. But this doesn't suggest in any way that I disapprove of other activities such as boating or playing ball. There is a time for everything. (That is, everything God approves of. We must understand this interpretation of that verse.) Of course, while we may play ball with the kids or have an outing with our family or friends it would seem a bit silly for a grown man to spend all his free time playing games while things around the house fell apart. Wouldn't it? A time for everything must include a time for upkeep as well.
In summary, the Sabbath is a special time for worship. And, while the weekday is set apart for another purpose it is not ours to use as we please.
Well, I hope I have added something new to this discussion. I will reread it later and fix any oversights.
posted
So just what is worship? Is it meeting together in large groups of people on a certain day at a certain place? Or is it something different?
From personal experience, I found little contemplation of God in large groups. Rather, the group always had an agenda and busyness that scripture calls a form of Godlyness. I found little rest but found it hectic and tiring.
We have had periods of time since leaving the ICs that we sometimes have regular meetings to study the word depending on schedules. However, even though those times are good, some of the most uplifting discussions are not spent at our regular study, but on a hike in the great vastness of God's creation or other outing. (Even in the back yard at times.) God touched our family many times with his creation as great object lessons which made everything fit together. Often my best prayer time is spent floating in the pool, just me and the Lord. Answers to prayer or questions often comes at the oddest times; but rarely during study time. He gives me time to ponder his word and then shows me.
I think we must answer for ourself, just what is worship? When thinking of how people worship other people, sometimes it includes specific rituals and other times we think of how one admires or respects another. Do they hold them in high esteem? Do they desire to be like them? etc.
So just what does worship of God entail? Specific things we do repeatedly or the way we esteem him? Isn't it our mindset? Is it what we do or what we think and believe? Just a few reflections.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
The world says that imitation is the highest form of flattery. Certainly, the hightest form of worship of God is obedience--conforming to His will for us. Conforming our life to His.
The form of godliness without the power that is spoken of in Thess refers to many things. But one very important item is how we neglect obedience to God's will while professing to honor Him and worship Him. That is truly a "form" of godliness. We conform our outward actions so that we seem pious but cannot change our carnal heart which is at enmity with God's law. Ours is a self-righteousness -- something we manufacture -- but it doesn't attest to the power of God which can transform an unrighteous sinner (a transgressor of God's law) into a righteous saint (a person who keeps God's law).
Our "worship" and "life" are too often adjusted to accomodate our lifestyles. If it is too uncomfortable we alter it and interepret the supposed "freedom", or rest, as God's perfect will. Not because it is a true rest but because it makes us feel comfortable and we wrongly interpret that comfort as peace with God. For example, we may take our Sabbath rest when it is doable for us. We say, "I rest one day a week", or "I live holy every day." But neither of these are in keeping with God's will who has commanded us to keep holy that which He made holy at creation. We may rest but it is a man's rest. It is not the rest that God created for man.
God's true rest may not make self feel too comfy. For example, I rest on the Sabbath day. Where I live almost nothing is open on Sunday. Does that present a problem? Yes, quite often. It is very inconvenient. But we cannot be truly at rest with God if we war against His commands. The disobedient are never at peace, or rest, with God. His wrath is against them. Only those who honor God by keeping His commands are at peace with Him and can rest in Him.
(If you are wondering how a sinner, such as we are, can keep God's commands then read how God, through Christ, placed the righteousness of the law in our hearts and minds in Romans 8:3. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through [my] flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh [he proved the law could be kept perfectly in human flesh and thereby made provision to judge all who continue in sin]: [and the reason God did this was] that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us [because through exceeding great and precious promises we are partakers of the divine nature--that of Christ who overcame in the flesh--giving us the same power to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. See 2Peter1:4.].)
The Sabbath was made for all mankind at the end of creation week. It was then that God blessed that day. Are you keeping the day that God blessed or some other day which is more convenient for you? Do you set aside your life and use the rest that God has made just for you to worship Him as He intended? Or, do you just worship when things get quiet in your life because you have nothing else "more important" going on?
Obedience is also an act of humility. It is submitting our will to God.
quote:God's true rest may not make self feel too comfy.
I disagree. God's rest is for man, the sabbath is for man to refresh. Refreshment always makes one feel better, not stressed out as much of the IC's activities called worship do. Jesus told us his way was light and it was the Pharasees who put uncomfortable burdens upon men.
quote:Are you keeping the day that God blessed or some other day which is more convenient for you? Do you set aside your life and use the rest that God has made just for you to worship Him as He intended?
Jeff, How does one keep the day? According to what I know of your beliefs it means attending church on Sat. But is attending church worship? Where does scripture tell us to specifically worship on Sat.? It doesn't. It says to rest. And then we must know what is rest? Is rest going to church? No, scripture never implies that it is.
quote:The world says that imitation is the highest form of flattery. Certainly, the hightest form of worship of God is obedience--conforming to His will for us. Conforming our life to His.
Where does God say he attended church or worshipped on Sat.? He doesn't. He said he rested after creation. There is no mention of exactly what he did but rest. Even Jesus was said to go to temple on Sat. as a custom not a command!!!!!!!!!! And he went to teach in his adult life---not to rest.
So in order to understand what we are to do, we must understand what is worship and what is rest and do they have anything to do with a church meeting? Think outside the box. God doesn't fit in a neat box with a steeple! He is God!!!!!!!!!!! He is everywhere. He said to worship in spirit and truth and not at a certain mountain or temple or time. How can spirit and truth be limited to only Saturdays?
IMO,
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I have attempted to define worship and rest but will provide additional scritures for our edification.
When you say, "think outside the box," do you mean think outside the "book"--as in Bible? That expression could be interpretted as implying we need to step beyond revealed truth and into speculation. God has revealed to us the things that are ours to know. The secret things belong to Him. So I don't think we want to step outside the confines that God has established and which keep us safely inside God's circle, or box, of revealed truth. God will expand the circle, or box, as He sees fit. We don't make those decisions. But whatever is revealed later will not contradict the written word.
(Remember, that word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus told us he came not to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill them both. Jesus' life was pre-written in the law and prophets. After His resurrection he revealed, in greater detail, to two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus just how He had fulfilled all. Writing in John the apostle states, "We have seen that Word of Life of which we have heard from the very beginning.")
In the book of Isaiah he prophesies regarding Sabbath keeping in the New Earth as a time of worship. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Isaiah 66:23. If obedience is worship, as I stated earlier, then obeying the Lord by keeping the Sabbath day is in itself worship. Just as attending a ballgame on the Sabbath would be a form or team worship--we honor our team by attending their games--we honor God when we attend His Sabbath day.
Didn't the rest of which Jesus spoke involve a burden and a yoke. There was "work" to do to enter into His rest. The writer of Hebrews states it this way. "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4:11. So couldn't the Sabbath be considered a labor of love to enter into God's rest--a time to worship God by giving Him our full attention in obedience to His commandment?
Isn't the Sabbath also a time to keep the 1st commandment, "No other God before me." We place other gods before Him when we dishonor Him by serving our own pleasures rather than keeping His Sabbath holy. "If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words." Isaiah 58:13. This pleasure seeking above worship of God is to be prevalent in the end time. "...lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God." 2 Timothy 3:4. At a time when Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commandments," there are these who love pleasure more than God. They refuse to love and honor Him by keeping His commands.
And, what about the Sabbath as a time to keep the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not...bow down before [other gods]." We bow before other gods when we give them honor above God. Paul wrote in Romans 6:16 that we are the servants of the one we obey. If we live by any other words than those that proceed out of the mouth of God then we are serving other gods. When we submit our wills to them we are virtually bowing down before them as their servants. When we keep God's commandments we are bowing before Him, honoring our Father, and abiding in His love by doing His commandments.
And surely, the Sabbath is a time to keep the 3rd commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain." We take the name of the Lord in vain when we profess to have a personal relationship with him and yet do not keep His commandments. In fact, John writes that these are liars. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
Now the 4th commandment is the one which instructs us to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." We are not left in doubt as to when the Sabbath day is. "Six days shalt thou labor and do all they work, but the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Who is our Lord? He is our Creator. Nothing was made without Him. All things were made by Him. He created man. He created the work week. And, He created the Sabbath rest. The literal Sabbath rest is to remind us weekly of the creation week and the Creator. We rest in the work of Jesus but the Sabbath day is also to be part of our resting in Jesus as our Creator and Savior. The Sabbath was and remains a special sign that we worship the Lord who created heaven and earth. "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." Ezekiel 20:20.
I believe all of this demonstrates that the Sabbath rest and worship of God are integral and cannot be reduced any further. Just as James summarizes, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." In other words, the law of God is not a letter to be kept. It is spirit and truth. One cannot keep most of it yet neglect even one. That is not walking in the spirit but would rather be very legalistic letter-keeping. Just as some look for loopholes in our civil laws, some Christians look for loopholes in God's laws. They seek ways of doing the minimum requirement. That is legalistic in its approach because it is not a heart service. It is an attempt to keep the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. The spirit of God's law is, afterall, love for God first, and love for our neighbor as ourself. From these two greatest commandments hang all the other commandments of God.
Now, this does not mean that we cannot worship seven days a week. In fact, I hope we all do. (Though we cannot keep every day holy as only one day was made holy by God.) Nor does this mean I am suggesting we must gather together in large groups in a church building. What I am saying is this, that God commanded us, and made provision for us, to especially worship and honor Him on the 7th day Sabbath by resting from our labor and entering into his rest (the work of His hands not ours). We cannot be disobedient (law-breakers) and still enter into His rest. "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work...There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4.
The Lord asks His people, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath."
quote: When you say, "think outside the box," do you mean think outside the "book"--as in Bible?
No! I meant just what I said,
quote: Think outside the box. God doesn't fit in a neat box with a steeple!
God doesn’t fit into the man made box of the IC’s thinking! He didn’t fit into the box of the Pharisees thinking either.
"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Isaiah 66:23.
Isa. Is talking about the time of the Gentiles when “all” can and do worship the Lord. Before that time, the Gentiles were not able to worship God. I notice that we do not observe new moons and thus the passage doesn’t imply we only worship on Saturday either.
Worship encompasses much more than one day. We now worship in spirit and truth not at a certain place or day as in the past. Church going on Sat. is called a custom by the scriptures. Christ observed this custom. However, it is never called the day of worship or anything similar. It is called a day of rest.
quote: we honor God when we attend His Sabbath day.
Obeying God could be considered worship just as belief is worship. So where does Christ explain how and where we attend this day?
John 4:23-24 (KJV) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Philip. 3:3 (KJV) For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
**Nor in fleshly customs.
John 4:19-25 (KJV) The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. [20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
**Notice the woman said “our fathers worshipped in this mountain”. We might say today, our fathers worshipped in the IC. But Christ says the hour is when we are to worship in spirit and truth. The time is NOW. He never says where, when or how often!!!!!!!!!! He does not tell us to “keep” anything by going to church, or any of the other customs of men. The reason is because it is a life style. It is a world view. It is part of you. Belief is worship.
[21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. [25] The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Exodus 20:8 (KJV) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exodus 20:9-10 (KJV) Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: [10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, …………
Nothing here implies going to church is worship. Nothing is said of the Sabbath day being a day for worship. God hallowed the Sabbath. He made it holy. We are to remember it and do no work according to the OC. However, Christ showed that the men were making it a burden by their endless rules of what could and couldn’t be done. Jesus made it clear the day was for man….for his rest and refreshment after a long week. Men can not make rules of how that is to be done.
One person works hard physically all week and really needs to sleep in to rest. Another person has a job dealing with people all week and needs some alone time. Another person works alone in an office with numbers or computers and needs human contact to feel refreshed. We can’t set specific customs for all to follow and declare that rest or worship for all men.
Even when studying the word of God, we must take into account our humanness. Sometimes we are tired and get nothing out of study. Other times our study is productive and stimulating. Thus, to force a study when too tired is useless and very pharisaical. I’ve seen many attend church and fall asleep. Seems they needed their rest and would have been better of sleeping late than forcing themselves to attend the customary service.
I took care of my sick mother for several months before she died. My job was 24/7. I did not get a Sabbath day off. I rested whenever she rested. I certainly did not wake her on Saturday to worship the Lord at a set time with a set of customary customs. I read scriptures to her when she felt like it. I talked to her of the Lord when she could. I prayed on the run whenever I had a minute. We worshipped in spirit and in truth 24/7.
All parents of young babies understand this 24/7 principle. There are no days off. A man’s job of providing for his family is a 24/7 job. Sometimes he ends up having to work, when he would like to rest, to take care of his family. (picking corn)
According to SDA and others, one should go to church at the customary time regardless of losing the ability to care for your family. I have seen those who were in dire need because of this legalistic “keeping” of the Sabbath. I do not believe Jesus meant for his children to be in physical need in order to keep a day! (BTW, I am not talking of those who work because they are work alcoholics.)
Jesus looked at the individual person and his or her circumstances and needs. Needs came first with him. He wanted them healed, fed and clothed. He cared for the person…not for the customary traditions.
Matthew 11:29-30 (KJV) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Notice his yoke is easy and the burden light. Deciding to buy groceries and pay the bills for your family by working on Sat. or to go church and do without is not a light burden! I know you will say if you are faithful, God will work it out. In some cases it may work out; but I have seen many in which it did not. Not everyone can have bankers hours.
Hebrews 4:5-6 (KJV) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. [6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Notice we enter into Christ’s rest. He is not speaking of Sabbath keeping. If you notice those who received the gospel first and entered not into Christ’s rest because of unbelief were Sabbath keepers!!!!!!! Thus, Sabbath keeping is not the rest spoken of nor is it a guarantee of obedience and salvation.
quote: Isn't the Sabbath also a time to keep the 1st commandment, "No other God before me."
NO, we are to have “no other God” 24/7!!!
quote: Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.
Have you ever thought the man who gives up his day of rest to provide for his family is not doing his own ways or pleasure? He is giving them up for his family----doing good on the Sabbath as Jesus taught. Have you ever considered the Pharisee type who loves to dress up and go to meetings to be seen, to be greeted, etc. is doing what he loves to do-----his “own pleasure”. These are the very ones who “bind heavy burdens”…on men’s shoulders” by insisting others attend and support these very social events they love so.
Matthew 23:4-7 (KJV) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, [6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, [7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
quote: And, what about the Sabbath as a time to keep the 2nd commandment, "Thou shalt not...bow down before [other gods]."
And surely, the Sabbath is a time to keep the 3rd commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain."
We do not bow down before other gods or take the Lord’s name in vain only on Saturday, but 24/7.
quote:The Sabbath was and remains a special sign that we worship the Lord who created heaven and earth. "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. Ezekiel 20:20."
Look back to see who was being addressed.
Ezekiel 20:18-20 (KJV) But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: [19] I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; [20] And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.
The Sabbath was a sign between God and ancient Israel in the wilderness.
Today there are neither Jew nor Greek but one people of God who worship 24/7. Who have the spirit of God in their hearts 24/7. It is the spirit of love in their hearts and their love for fellow man that show they are God’s people. They are sealed with the spirit.
Sign 226 1.sign, signal
a. distinguishing mark b. banner c. remembrance d. miraculous sign e. omen f. warning 2.token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof The Sabbath sign means a distinguishing mark or proof of who Israel was. Today the mark of a Christian is the seal of God, the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 1:22 (KJV) Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Ephes. 1:13 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Ephes. 4:30 (KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Sealed: Strong's Number: 4972 1. to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal a. for security: from Satan b. since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret c. in order to mark a person or a thing 1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp 2. angels are said to be sealed by God d. in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing 1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt 1d e. of a written document 1d f. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be Being sealed by the spirit proves who the Christian is. The spirit is God’s mark on us. Just as those who follow the antichrists of the world are said to have the mark of the beast, Christians have the mark of the spirit. Ancient Israel had the mark or sign of the Sabbath to set them aside. We have the spirit to separate us from the world.
quote: The spirit of God's law is, afterall, love for God first, and love for our neighbor as ourself. From these two greatest commandments hang all the other commandments of God.
I agree. It is when Sabbath keeping becomes more important than God or his people that it becomes a burdensome custom. The people’s needs come first for the day is made for them. It is not a sign for the Christian for our mark or seal is the spirit.
quote: (Though we cannot keep every day holy as only one day was made holy by God.)
We can not keep anything holy not even the Sabbath. However, though Christ who lives in us we are a holy people. Thus we live holy lives----not us; but Christ in us.
quote: What I am saying is this, that God commanded us, and made provision for us, to especially worship and honor Him on the 7th day Sabbath by resting from our labor and entering into his rest (the work of His hands not ours).
I saw no proofs that God commanded worship specifically on the seventh day but said to rest.
quote: There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." Hebrews 4.
The rest Christ gives us is not a once a week rest. He gives us his rest 24/7. He promises to be with us always. He is our constant companion via his spirit. We can always lean on him no matter the day or hour. Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
How are you all doing? Have not visited for quite some time. Forgive me for interrupting and please allow me to ask a question. Faith wrote
quote:Even resting on the Sabbath day can become legalistic and burdensome by those who require you do this and do that or don't do this or don't do that.
God spoke through Moses to His people to kindle no fire on Sabbath in Exodus 35. A man was stoned to dead because he gathered wood on Sabbath in Numbers 15. God spoke through Jeremiah that His people shouldn't do this or that in Jeremiah 17. Looks like there are do's and don't on a Sabbath. So is it fair to say that for those who disobey the Lord Sabbath becomes legalistic and burdensome - just like all the other commandments? On the other hand, for those who obey, His commandments are delightful? I know in my heart that God delights in those who keeps His Sabbath and I find keeping Sabbath delightful quite often. Problem is, I can't keep it persistently as I frequently go astray. You know, turning the TV on or pondering what to do or where to go and stuff like that. So my question is - How does one know that he/she keeps Sabbath according to His Will, if not go by the Bible, word by word? Or one can only guess? How do we know we are not trying to rationalize what we do? Please help.
I'm glad you interrupted. Faith and I have been through this before so we need to break it off here anyway.
I like the way you summed it up. Aren't you glad that we are not reliant upon our works but rely upon the merits of Jesus for our salvation? Still, we delight to do His will because we love Him and wish to please Him. It is what motivates us, right?
I guess the best way to answer your question is to study what Jesus did on the Sabbath. It was His habit (custom) to fellowship with the church on the Sabbath day. He helped the sick on the Sabbath day. He spent time in prayer and with nature. He relaxed with His disciples. We will have to accustom ourselves to similar things and develop new habits since we have spent so much time pleasing ourselves it doesn't come naturally. We naturally wonder off into our old habits. But we are not condemned. We get back on track and move on.
I like what one Christian author wrote when she said, "When it is our desire to obey, and we put forth effort to that end, Jesus accepts that desire and effort as our best service and makes up for our deficiencies with his own divine merit." We have all fallen and come short of the glory of God. But we are now to consider the old man as dead and the new man in Christ as alive. We are not judged by an occassional misdeed or occassional good deeds. We are judged by the tendancy of our life. Our efforts should tend always upward toward righteousness. We will often kneel before Jesus in sorrow for our shortcomings, but we can forever trust in his mercy and grace to pardon. Aren't you glad our salvation is not dependent upon our own personal worthiness? I am. Yet, that does not excuse us from our burden and yoke.
Let your mind contemplate the great gift of Christ in coming to this dark world to suffer the punishment that was ours. Let yourself fall in love with Christ. Then the Sabbath activities will be consumed with spending time with your best friend. Get outdoors away from the city and take time with nature. Though sin has blighted this old world there are plenty of signs of God handiwork that remains. All of the color, variety, smells, sounds, sights, everything reveals that God spent considerable thought creating this world for us. It is a testimonial of his great love for us. At the end of creation week our Lord rested from his work of creation. Not because he was tired but because his work was perfect! There was nothing left to do. So he ceased his labor. We can on the Sabbath contemplate that great love in the act of creation. The Sabbath can be perfectly used for this purpose--to fall in love with Jesus.
All week long we work to support our families. But on the Sabbath we can come full stop and trust wholly and solely in Jesus to provide for our every need. But we can only enter into that rest by faith. The fearful and unbelieving will not trust fully and therefore cannot cease from their labor to enter into his rest. They do not trust God to take him at his word. Perhaps they feel that their faith should not be tested. But even faithful Abraham was tested. He was told to sacrifice the promised son. Abraham had enough faith to trust God and he would have offered up his son if God had not interposed.
We need that kind of faith today. Faith that will step outside our tiny little box to experience the vastness of God's mercy and grace. Abraham had it. He knew that Isaac was the promised seed. He realized that if he killed him he would terminate his lineage. But he also trusted the Lord. The Lord made Abraham a promise. Abraham knew that God would keep his promise. So he did not faulter. He did not know how God would keep his promise at that time but I am sure he knew that God could raise Isaac from the dead. We need that kind of faith. Faith to believe the naked promises of God. Why should we be fearful and distrust God? Why?
Scripture says that perfect love casts out fear. I want that kind of faith. That kind of love that casts out all fear. Don't you? If by my effort--by seeking, asking, knocking--I can drink deeper from the well then why should I neglect to do so? I believe that God will acknowledge my effort to draw near to him and reward me with a deeper drink. But relationships take time. The effort is spontaneous, is it not? You don't really have to work at it--it becomes your focus in life. Right?
posted
Hi Chubbena, Nice to see you are still here.
quote: A man was stoned to dead because he gathered wood on Sabbath in Numbers 15. God spoke through Jeremiah that His people shouldn't do this or that in Jeremiah 17. Looks like there are do's and don't on a Sabbath. So is it fair to say that for those who disobey the Lord Sabbath becomes legalistic and burdensome - just like all the other commandments?
Yes there were do’s and don’t in the OT which caused one to be put to death. Fortunately we are no longer stoned for these things. We are under the New Covenant now. The old was a school master. Jesus is the one who explained that extreme Sabbath keeping becomes burdensome as he was accused of breaking the Sabbath when he healed, picked corn, etc. I spoke of abuses I saw first hand by a couple of different Sabbath keeping groups.
I see nothing wrong with one resting on the Sabbath. I do see something wrong with demanding others to rest exactly the way you see fit. Different circumstances demand different responses. Something may be good in one circumstance and wrong in another.
Take the example of gathering wood. In the OT the man was stoned. Today, Jesus would look to see why he gathered wood. Was there a poor widow without heat in the middle of winter? Did the man gather the wood to take to her? Did his family run out of wood because the weather was colder than expected or the family member who should have brought in extra wood had been sick or forgot? Did he do good or did he break the Sabbath as some would teach? I think common sense should be used in deciding what to do and what not to do.
Just as in my previous post, some need different things to be refreshed. I noticed even Jeff has mentioned it is ok to go outside in nature and enjoy God’s creation. Thus, he’s beginning to think outside the denomination boxes of the IC’s. The Sabbath keepers I have seen taught one had to go to church; but it was a sin to go to the lake or woods to rest in God’s creation. They taught it was ok to spend time in the church kitchen for a pot luck; but a sin to not have food prepared ahead of time at home or to go out for dinner (causing another to work). Those things are legalistic, burdensome and wrong, IMO. BTW, there is nothing wrong in and of itself of preparing food ahead; but it should not make Friday an especially hectic and burdensome day. It is not an absolute!
Can I give you a list or things that are ok to do or not ok to do? No. I think commonsense, circumstance and motive all come into play.
The OT law was a school master. Just so when my child was small, I taught him to never cross the road without holding my hand. Then I taught him to look both ways while I was with him. Then I taught him to look for himself and to cross himself without an adult present. When did he know it was safe? At first it was never safe if he saw a car in the road. Later he began to know how fast and how far away a car was. Thus, he could decide if it was safe to cross. He no longer needed the school master of the earlier rules; but could tell what was ok and what was not. How we remember the Sabbath is the same. OT had certain rules that were not to be broken (gather no wood or corn). NT relied on certain principles but allowed the use of common sense. ( could pick corn or gather wood if needful to do good.)
quote: I know in my heart that God delights in those who keeps His Sabbath and I find keeping Sabbath delightful quite often. Problem is, I can't keep it persistently as I frequently go astray. You know, turning the TV on or pondering what to do or where to go and stuff like that. So my question is - How does one know that he/she keeps Sabbath according to His Will, if not go by the Bible, word by word?
Cut yourself some slack. I think Jesus would. Enjoy the day, do good on the day (though doing good isn’t always restful or enjoyable; but sometimes needful). So what is restful to you? Some would allow nothing but study of the scriptures which can be refreshing at times; but wearisome at others.
Eccles. 12:12 (KJV) And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Worrying about everything you are doing and if it is OK is not restful. What do you need on a particular Sabbath? Do you really need sleep? Do you really need fresh air and aloneness with God and his creation? Do you really need fellowship with others? Do you really need family time? Do you need to help another? What is good for you and for your family or others you know? As far as I know, the scriptures never says thou shalt do (fill in the blank) every Saturday. It does say the day was made for you; so use it for your benefit or the benefit of others.
quote:How does one know that he/she keeps Sabbath according to His Will, if not go by the Bible, word by word? Or one can only guess? How do we know we are not trying to rationalize what we do? Please help.
The closer we get to Jesus, the more we understand what he would do. Ask yourself if you would be ashamed if Jesus came and saw what you were doing? What would his response be to your actions? What motives would he see?
BTW, what do you think God did when he rested? I think he sat back and enjoyed the fruits of his labor. As my hubby says, he just kicked back and took it easy. Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Found this statement from Faith and wanted to commment. Faith had written, "Yes there were do’s and don’t in the OT which caused one to be put to death. Fortunately we are no longer stoned for these things. We are under the New Covenant now."
Just so we don't become complacent I wanted to point out that under the Old Covenant animals were slain for our sins. But under the New...Well, need I say more?
What do you suppose this passage means? Any comments?
Hebrews 10
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
What is meant by "Moses' law?" And, what is it referring to when it talks about doing despite unto the Spirit of grace? This is a serious passage, don't you think? Some pretty serious admonitions.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Mose's law is a whole different topic in its self. Mose's law and the 10 are different. Sin that keeps one from the kingdom is different from all the things listed in the OT. We are not under Mose’s law today. The ordinances were nailed to the cross. There are several lists in the NT expaining who will not enter the kingdom and those who gather wood on Sat. are not mentioned; nor do I see those who do work mentioned as unrepentant sinners who will not enter the kingdom.
Galatians 5:20-21 (KJV) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 7:21 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I must ask who will enter the kingdom? Who is doing the will of the Father? He who sat in church on Sat. while a widow froze to death or he who skipped church to gather wood to warm the widow?
John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I noticed nothing about: except a man keep the Sabbath a certain way; he can’t enter the kingdom.
However, I must ask since we are no longer stoned for gathering wood, do you think gathering wood on sat. is always a sin? Does gathering wood on Sat. lose us our salvation?
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Hi Jeff/Faith, Wish all my Christian fellows are like you & Faith – you guys love the Lord so much that you spend much time talking about Him. I don’t want to be judgmental but the only sign I see that they are Christians is when they pray before a meal. You know, most of them would avoid talking about the Bible. Sigh...
quote:Get outdoors away from the city and take time with nature. Though sin has blighted this old world there are plenty of signs of God handiwork that remains. All of the color, variety, smells, sounds, sights, everything reveals that God spent considerable thought creating this world for us.
So true, both my wife and I find quite often that a. a day in the country is like vacationing for a whole week and would get us totally refreshed. b. a day at the mall is like hard work and quite often we need more rest after that, even though both involve much walking & seeing.
quote: Scripture says that perfect love casts out fear. I want that kind of faith. That kind of love that casts out all fear. Don't you?
It’s what I’m taught in IC but it’s not how I understand 1 John 4 now. My understanding now is if we love Him we obey His commandments. If we love Him 100% we would obey 100% then there will be no fear the day Christ returns for we will be perfect and will not be afraid of punishment. Jesus lives a sinless life through perfect obedience. So when it says “because as he is, so are we in this world” I understand it as we have to live sinlessly – through His blood and our ever growing obedience – to reach the perfection God desires. My old me is saying I’d be glad that if I’m wrong here but my spirit says otherwise. That’s why I’m constantly fighting, in sorrow and yet in joyfulness.
quote: Yes there were do’s and don’t in the OT which caused one to be put to death. Fortunately we are no longer stoned for the
Email this page to someone.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)