posted
In another topic on the Sabbath we touched on the concept of obligatory days of worship. Some argue that we are compelled to worship on a particular day and others seem to think there is no one day specifically set aside for that purpose.
We allow that no man has the right to establish laws binding upon the conscience nor to establish traditions or sacraments purported to be essential to ones salvation. Yet, as King and Lord our God does hold this prerogative forever.
So then a few questions arise.
1. Has God obligated us to worship on a certain day? 2. Is that necessary for our salvation?
My quick answer is, Yes. But I hope to demonstrate from God's Word why.
Here are a few more things we must admit: a) God blessed the 7th day at the end of creation b) Jesus said the 7th day was made for man c) At Sinai we learned God's chosen are to rest on the 7th day d) Transgression of God's law demands our death e) We have, every one of us, sinned (transgressed the law) f) We can be reborn into a new life as children of God g) We are not saved by our works but by grace h) Jesus died for our sins so that we may live
Now, as far as I know, and I don't know everything, there is only one denomination (if it can be called such) that has obligatory days of worship. (Don't confuse tradition with obligation.) This same "church" has sacraments deemed essential for salvation. It also claims that only those who belong to Her faith can be saved--with few exceptions. I can think of no other "church" (read, IC) which makes such bold claims upon a persons soul.
Does anyone know of any church (IC) that makes similar claims or demands? Can that doctrine be justified? While man cannot make such a demand, can God? Since obedience IS essential to ones salvation does it earn him salvation? And, finally, we are to worship God every day, but are we obligated to worship on the 7th day in a special way? Without getting into someones head, would observing the 7th day Sabbath in this day and age make us obedient to God or obedient to the law (legalistic)? Can we even make that judgment?
If you question is if worship is necessary for our salvation, I would say yes. Why? Worship is in a way to be with Him and to please Him. If we don't enjoy that then the New Jerusalem will be like hell - for we will be 24/7 with Him there. Would He pick those who don't enjoy being with Him there? I don't think so. Thus my conclusion of worship is necessary for our salvation. By the way, I think the OT worship is still on, burnt offerings, grain offerings, sin/guilt offerings and peace offerings, in an evoluted way. The blameless living by the saints being burnt offerings and grain offerings and Christ on the cross being the other three - which is so efficient and sufficient that it lasts forever and ever.
Yes, worship of God is definitely essential to salvation. The basic meaning of worship appears to be "deep love". (See MSN Encarta: Worship, Devotion). And true worship is not contrived. And, as we already stated, involves obedience. I guess Jesus was calling for this genuine worship when he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So if we are correct, and I think we are, it would be impossible to worship God without being obedient.
Yet, the question was not, "Is worship essential," but rather is worship on the Sabbath essential. Must we worship God on the Sabbath day to genuinely worship him?
I guess the answer to that question would revolve around whether or not God has commanded us to worship him on the Sabbath day. From just a few verses we already know he calls for us to rest on the Sabbath day. So a deeper understanding of what that rest entails may be in order. Is it merely a physical rest? A spiritual rest? We touched on this elsewhere but I don't think we arrived at any consensus. Would any one like to attempt an explanation?
quote:Now, as far as I know, and I don't know everything, there is only one denomination (if it can be called such) that has obligatory days of worship. (Don't confuse tradition with obligation.) This same "church" has sacraments deemed essential for salvation. It also claims that only those who belong to Her faith can be saved--with few exceptions. I can think of no other "church" (read, IC) which makes such bold claims upon a persons soul.
Does anyone know of any church (IC) that makes similar claims or demands?
Yes!!!!!!!!! They are often called cults, but not always so. Many mainline churches have such demands. Some are very bold and say you must worship on Saturday or Sunday or you are lost. These often state you must belong to their church organization or you are an unbeliever. Some only state you must attend church somewhere, sometime to be saved. Many state they are the only church. I found this true more often in Sabbath keeping organizations than Sunday keepers except for Mormons and JW types. Also the C of Christ seem to think they are the only ones, or at least did a few years ago. BTW, there were over 100 denominations of Sabbath keepers some 20 years ago. Many of those claiming to be the only ones have so called prophets calling the shots. Several even keep the OT feasts as obligatory today. Those going back to the Hebrew roots, both Sabbath and Sunday keepers, seem to be setting more demands, returning to the OC. Even many mainliners consider the observation of Christmas or Easter obligatory regardless of church attendance or secular observance. I suspect the RC gets the prize for the most obligatory days and rituals.
quote: Can that doctrine be justified?
NO
quote:While man cannot make such a demand, can God?
God can do anything he wants.
quote:Since obedience IS essential to ones salvation does it earn him salvation?
NO.
Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
quote:And, finally, we are to worship God every day, but are we obligated to worship on the 7th day in a special way?
NO. Again God said rest not worship. If we are to “worship” in a special way, what is it and where does Jesus explain it to us?
quote:Without getting into someones head, would observing the 7th day Sabbath in this day and age make us obedient to God or obedient to the law (legalistic)? Can we even make that judgment?
We must make that judgment for ourselves in order to remember the Sabbath and rest. Where does the Bible state we must observe the Sabbath? What does observe mean? Is observing the same as remembering and resting? We must answer these questions before we can decide if we are obedient or not. BTW, we are to be obedient to God not the letter of the law.
Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Chubbena,
quote: If you question is if worship is necessary for our salvation, I would say yes. Why? Worship is in a way to be with Him and to please Him.
Isn’t worship what we do after we receive salvation. Isn’t it very similar or the same as hearing and following our Lord?
Regarding the OT ways or the OC,
1 Cor. 13:10 (KJV) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Jeff, Regarding worship,
***Worship can be:
Showing homage like kissing the hand, falling on the ground or kneeling before to show reverence, respect or honoring of rank. Such as the wise men came to see the Christ child, the king or like Satan asked Christ to give him.
Another meaning is simply revere or worship.
John 4, Jesus was discussing with the woman where to worship, at Jerusalem at the temple or on a special mountain, or a special place (church building, etc.) he said that was no longer necessary. He did say,
John 4:24 (KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Now I must ask since God is a Spirit, how do we bow down or show homage, reverence and honor of his rank in spirit? I don’t think it is so much the physical things we do as it is the spiritual attitude of our hearts that is to do the worshiping.
Again, I point out there is no command to worship on a specific day, place, time, etc. If worship is to honor God or, as Jeff pointed out, to love God, how can we do that differently one day? Don’t we honor and love God the same every day; or do we respect him more on Saturday? I think not. He is God every day! He is awesome everyday!
Example: As the world sees it: I love my husband everyday. I honor and respect him. However, the world says I should observe special days to honor and pay homage to him like: Valentine’s day, Christmas, our anniversary and his birthday. We stopped doing what the world said a long time ago. We don’t do Valentines or Christmas. As for anniversaries and birthdays, we’re not legalistic about them. I’ll explain.
Say my hubby works on our anniversary, we forgo the usual dinner out until a more convenient day. He’s tired. He doesn’t want to get changed and go out. Rather he’d like to put his feet up and rest after a long day. Then on his day off, we go out when we have more time and energy to enjoy the day together.
Does he always bring me flowers on our anniversary? No. Do I get mad? No However, he occasionally stops at the flower shop for no reason and surprises me. Sometimes he doesn’t even go to the flower shop but picks wild flowers from the field when mowing. Which one do you think I like best? Which one honors me most?
If I knew I’d be getting flowers every anniversary, they would become customary and ordinary. They certainly wouldn’t show how much my husband loved me or honored me. (Much like what happens in the IC)
Stopping at the flower shop while out working is nice and welcomed. The act of picking flowers while hot, sweaty and tired, mowing the field is really an honor to me. For I know he is thinking of me always even at the most unexpected time. That shows deep love not the superficial love that does what is expected from obligation.
Does God really demand obligatory observation of certain days or a day and does he feel honored by such?
Amos 5:21-22 (KJV) I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. [22] Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
Why would God command them to keep days and offer offerings and then reject them? Was it because they went through the motions; but their hearts were far from him? Isn’t this what has happened in the IC, regardless of day? They have added and taken away and made their own customs, gods, and laws.
quote: Yet, the question was not, "Is worship essential," but rather is worship on the Sabbath essential. Must we worship God on the Sabbath day to genuinely worship him? I guess the answer to that question would revolve around whether or not God has commanded us to worship him on the Sabbath day.
I have to ask, if we worship God, honor, revere and love God, then how can we not do so every day? Deep love and honor is not a once a week even. We can’t love him on Saturday and not every other day. Your idea of special worship needs explaining. How can you love him more special on one day if you truly love him with all your heart? That is all the time!
quote: So a deeper understanding of what that rest entails may be in order. Is it merely a physical rest? A spiritual rest?
I believe this is the key. Worship and rest are different.
While a physical rest is needful for the body, Jesus showed us that sometimes we must get off our chair and do things for the good of others and even ourself (heal, pick corn). Jesus promises us rest for our souls not our bodies.
Matthew 11:29 (KJV) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
That’s our problem as humans, we are always thinking of physical things and not spiritual. The Jews rejected Christ for he refused to fight off the Romans, but talked of a spiritual kingdom. Men want to worship in temples made with their hands and follow physical customs. The Lord made it plain, he does not dwell there, but in our hearts; and we worship in spirit not with customs.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:Isn’t worship what we do after we receive salvation. Isn’t it very similar or the same as hearing and following our Lord?
He says to rest on Sabbath. Therefore, if we rest, we hear and follow Him and that's worship. Now not all wives are so understanding on anniversaries. Some insist on receiving flowers and having a special dinner on that particular day or they get very very mad. Now if the wife owns the company her husband works for and if the wife insists that the husband takes a day off on their anniversary and spend that day with her. What would the husband do? Now the Lord owns all, if He says work six days and spend the weekend with Him. If He says there are special days He wants you to leave work and be with Him. What would we do? Thus going back to Jeff's question:
quote:I guess the answer to that question would revolve around whether or not God has commanded us to worship him on the Sabbath day.
The problem with Israelites in OT was that they didn't enjoy those days when the Lord told them to put aside for Him. Now the problem with Christians in NT is we can't possibly rest and be with Him 24/7. While we should honor Him at work and at a lot of things we do, it's not rest, otherwise we shouldn't get tired. We do get tired, don't we?
quote: Now if the wife owns the company her husband works for and if the wife insists that the husband takes a day off on their anniversary and spend that day with her. What would the husband do?
Great, how lucky, take the day off. I get what you are saying; but where does scripture tell us specifically what to do when we rest? And remember we are to do as Jesus taught. He taught that sometimes it was good to do some work on the Sabbath. Thus, since he said it was ok, it is.
quote: Now the Lord owns all, if He says work six days and spend the weekend with Him. If He says there are special days He wants you to leave work and be with Him. What would we do? Thus going back to Jeff's question:
Here is where I don’t see specific rules. Where does the Lord even state that rest means spending the day with him? He is with us always and we with him no matter what we are doing.
I have yet to see specific rules stated from the Lord’s mouth as to what we are to do by resting. I do see specific implications that it is to be spent for our good as the day was made for us.
quote: While we should honor Him at work and at a lot of things we do, it's not rest, otherwise we shouldn't get tired. We do get tired, don't we?
Another question is does rest mean physical or spiritual rest? Of course we get tired. Sometimes we get tired before the 7th day. Should we never rest our tired bodies until then? I think this is related to the sticks and corn issues. Is it always wrong to pick up sticks? According to the NT corn story, no. Does it have to do with spiritual motive or is it just a physical issue? I think it is spiritual. Jesus expanded the other commands to deal with the spiritual, like not murder becomes not hate.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
I think what Chubbena is trying to say is that obedience is worship. Earlier I said that obedience is the highest form of worship. Remember "Honor your father and mother?" Doesn't that entail obedience?
So then if we rest from our common labor in obedience to the commandment of God then we are honoring God as our Master and Creator and that is in itself an act of worship. Don't think of worship as requiring a building and lots of people. Don't get hung up on that concept of worship. What we are talking about is something very personal between an individual and God. And don't expect to hear from us a list of rules for Sabbath keeping. That would profit no one. But what is of profit is obedience to God's commandments.
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God [that is of value].
Our life should be continual obedience even when it is tough. Not occassional obedience when it is convenient. Jesus was obedient though his life got harder at every step until finally he faced the cross.
Hebrews 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
That act repeated over and over exercises our consciences to discern between good and evil. Then, and only then, we are ready for the meat of the word. A life of ease will never prepare you to face what lies ahead. Trials are required to make men and women of strong moral character.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Now the commandment is easy enough such that even the simple can understand it. A child will see it easily whereas we are blinded by our past. They only way a child would not see it clearly is if an adult taught them differently--just as in like manner so many have been taught by their pastors. The blind leading the blind.
Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
We are clearly commanded to remember the sabbath day.
We are clearly told that we have six days to labor and do all our work.
We are clearly told that the seventh day is the sabbath. No confusion here.
We are clearly told that no person or animal within our control is to work.
Then we are clearly told why. Because at creation God made the world in six days--days 1 through 6--but he rested from his work on the 7th day. It was then that God blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Thus Jesus could say, "The sabbath was made for man." Not just the Jewish people but for all of humanity.
If you wish to consider the sanctity of this day then consider that Jesus' followers did not anoint his body before laying it in the tomb because the Sabbath drew nigh. Scripture tells us that they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. That would be the Sabbath commandment, one of he Ten.
The body of the world's Redeemer, the most important body of all times, was not embalmed because it would have entered upon the Sabbath day. Actually it was what we call Friday evening. But to Jewish reckoning the Sabbath was from evening to evening--a full 24 hours. Now you or I would have considered this act of love and worship as a good deed that certainly should not go left undone even on the Sabbath. But Christ's followers were obedient. Now how many good works would we consider more important that that act? We are left without excuse, I tell you. Their righteous act will condemn our poor, pitiful, excuses to do whatever we wish on the Sabbath.
And, another question. Why did these followers of Christ still observe the Sabbath so strictly after his death if it was done away with or otherwise mitigated? Why didn't Jesus confirm that with them before he died? He set everything else straight.
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