I would not desire to take anything away from the importance of meetings in what I am about to write. I am just trying to take a fresh look at this matter and, as best I can, to lay aside any and all of my previously held biases.
Have you ever noticed that if you ask a person if they are a Christian, most of the time they will answer that question as if you asked them if they "attended church?" They immediately change the question around to this other issue.
Christians in the NT are told to do many things - not in order to be saved but because they are the redeemed. Look at all the "one another" passages, for example. Several times, to greet one another with a holy kiss, many times to love, forgive - once, to "assemble ourselves." Granted, once is plenty enough if the message be from God!
Interestingly to me, the exhortation to "assemble ourselves" was particularly addressed to the Hebrews, who were about to be hotly persecuted and might be very shy to stick their heads out of the trenches to associate with other brethren."
Many saints as well believe that the ABC-XYZ for the Christian is "going to Church." So do many of the clergy. Most of them which I have known rate the members of "their flock" by how many times they show up each week.
I declare, I do not see this to be the emphasis of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It is just one of many things set before us. Of course, it is --present-- and much of the "one anothering" can also be done in the meetings, right? In Hebr. 10:25, the exhortation seem to be part of the very reason for meeting. "NOT FORSAKING the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; BUT EXHORTING one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Perhaps God is just as interested in us when we are not "in church." Perhaps we should be just as interested in Him when we are not "in church."
Yes, He is and yes, we should.
David Anderson
Rom. 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
1Cor. 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
2Cor. 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.
1Ths. 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
Mike Sangrey
posted
David Anderson said: > I would not desire to take anything away from the importance of > meetings in what I am about to write. I am just trying to take a > fresh look at this matter and, as best I can, to lay aside any and > all of my previously held biases.
...
> Interestingly to me, the exhortation to "assemble ourselves" was > particularly addressed to the Hebrews, who were about to be hotly > persecuted and might be very shy to stick their heads out of the > trenches to associate with other brethren."
If I may I'd like to address the allusion to Hebrews 10:25. I honestly don't think it is talking about meetings at all.
If I take Hebrews 10 and sum it up in my own words I get something like this:
Jesus is the reality of which Torah was only a shadow: He is the living, breathing Torah; that is, sacrifice and offerings have been subsumed (fulfilled) by Him. This has direct impact on those who are faithful to him: they are changed; the Torah is now written on their hearts. Therefore we are to draw near to the God. If we reject this, then the only thing left is a fearful expectation of judgment. Recall how you've stood firm in the past--do that again.
Read Hebrews 10 and see if you don't come to somewhat the same summary. BTW, this exhortation to recall how they have stood firm in the past is immediately followed by an overwhelming list of illustrations of exactly how they did that. And the examples of faith are immediately followed (chapter 12) by the exhortation to throw off their faithlessness (the sin which so easily ensnares us all) and "to fix their eyes on Jesus." The whole focus of this entire section is Jesus. It is all about Him.
Now, what in the world does goin' to meet'n have to do with this? I mean, I can come up with some connection, sure; but why force the issue like a round peg in a square hole? In the midst of encouraging a group of Hebrews to be faithful to Jesus, to focus completely on Him, why say, "attend meetings." I'll point out that this funniness, in a different way, jumped out at David Anderson, too. Sometimes when it jumps it is important, sometimes it's a sore thumb which needs fixed. Which is it in this case?
If it's important, then why did the original author bring it up in such an indirect way. If you read my summary above (or read your own) you would not blurt out: "Oh my, fearful judgment!! What am I thinking!!! I've got to get to meetings!!!" It's a lot more indirect then that and yet it jumps out as not fitting quite right. Furthermore, the entire argument for "attend meetings" boils down to one word. That is, "the assembling together" is only ONE word.
That word is EPISUNAGWGH (or you might prefer, episunagoge). It appears only twice in the NT; the other place is 2 Thes. 2:1. My understanding of this passage is that Paul explains "coming of our Lord" in verses 2-12 and then explains "being gathered to Him" in verses 13-15. If you read that text you'll not see anything about meetings.
In any case, if EPISUNAGWGH means "gathered to something or someone" in 2 Thess., then what about here in Heb. 10. And if it means "attend the meetings" then where is that explained here in 2 Thess.? In 2 Thess. 2:1 I get the distinct impression Paul will explain what he means.
Personally, I have always thought attending meetings has little to do with anything religious and has everything to do with people representing Jesus serving others in their needs. And by "people representing Jesus" I don't mean clergy; I mean all the priests. In other words, it is simply people training people how to help people in the name of Jesus. Isn't that what we are going to be measured by? (cf Mat. 25:31-46).
Lastly, the Hebrews text says "to encourage one-another". Encourage one-another to what? And why does it need to be done more and more as "you see the Day approaching?" Keep in mind this whole section is about faithfulness to Jesus and the judgment which is left for those who aren't faithful. So, I think he is saying to encourage one another to be faithful to Jesus.
Some would argue this section teaches one can lose their salvation. IMO, it is far easier to understand the letter to the Hebrews as an evangelistic tract geared especially for the Jew, people who already had knowledge and a form of relationship with the one true God. If the book was written about AD 65-70, then "the Day" would very likely be the judgment of Israel which happened in 66-73. Judgment which Jesus had talked talked about in no uncertain terms. If that is true, then "all the more as you see the Day approaching" takes on a very in-your-face meaning. (And Heb. 10:26-31 is probably talking about this judgment.)
"Let us not forsake the in-gathering of ourselves..." (Consider `in-gathering' in 2 Thes. 2:1, too and the relation to 2 Thes. 2:13-15 suggested above and see if it doesn't fit.)
Anyway, I've typed more than I wanted to. There are some objections left to be answered but I'm out of time, and you probably are, too. Thanks for reading this.
May God bless you as you bless others.
Darin
posted
After reading the above posts I thought I would jot down some of my ideas on the subject of church mandatory meetings. Here is what I wrote:
Hebrews 10: 19-26…”Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; 21 And having an high Priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
Forsake = to abandon or renounce; to give up.
Assembling = The act of putting or the coming together of something
Exhort = to urge, recommend strongly
Many interpret Hebrews 10:25 as a command to always go to your local church on Sundays and whenever else a church gathering is held. Churches advertise this verse and repeat it over and over in an attempt to get and keep more people in the pews. But is this really what this verse is saying?
I believe these verses try to encourage us to hold strong to the faith and not to give up (forsake) on the promise that Christ will come back some day and gather us unto Himself. My interpretation of the above verses is as such:
“ We as born again Christians should approach God with boldness knowing that Christ Jesus gave us new life through Him and He is now our High Priest at the Father’s side. Holding onto Christ and His truths, we need to faithfully draw closer to God with true hearts in full assurance that Christ’s promises will come true. As we do this, we should also encourage others to remain strong in love and unto good works. Even though He may tarry, we must not give up on (forsake) Christ’s promise to come back for us and gather us unto Himself, as some do, but instead we must encourage others all the more to stay faithful as that day of His return gets closer and closer. Because if we do forsake on that promise, and we return to our sinful lives, then there is no more sacrifice for our sins. That would be a rejection of Christ, and thus a rejection of the one true way to salvation.”
See how all those verses flow in meaning. If we would instead insert the common interpretation of verse 25 into that, it would be completely out of place. Here is how it would be with that common interpretation:
“ We as born again Christians should approach God with boldness knowing that Christ Jesus gave us new life through Him and He is now our High Priest at the Father’s side. Holding onto Christ and His truths, we need to faithfully draw closer to God with true hearts in full assurance that Christ’s promises will come true. As we do this, we should also encourage others to remain strong in love and unto good works. And we must never forsake a church meeting, as some do, but instead we must encourage others all the more as the day gets closer and closer. Because if we return to our sinful lives, then there is no more sacrifice for our sins. That would be a rejection of Christ, and thus a rejection of the one true way to salvation.”
Now this just does not make sense. Why after telling us about how we can faithfully and boldly approach God through Christ, and why just before telling us not to fall back into sin, would the author tells us “Oh yeah…and don’t miss any church meetings…that’s a no-no”? That interpretation might make sense for that verse when it is pulled out of the context of the surrounding verses. But when it is viewed within the entirety of the chapter, it is out of place.
As Paul writes, let no one judge us according to what we eat, or to Sabbaths and holidays that we may or may not observe. We are to live every day for The Lord. Everyday the same and be guided by our conscience (our spirit). That is part of the freedom we have in Christ Jesus. There are no such attendance rules, only rules of living by faith and love and truth. Everyday we should worship The Lord with our whole heart, mind and soul! And we are to encourage other believers to stay faithful until Christ’s return for us, because that day is getting closer and closer! AMEN!
John 4: 20-24…Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
In John 4 above, Jesus says that there is no longer a certain place where we are to worship the Father. We are to worship Him everywhere in spirit and in truth. Knowing this, why are church buildings treated with such reverence? It is not the building that is important. With this in mind, could it be said that today’s organized churches commit idolatry by treating their church buildings as if they are special and even calling them “The Lord’s House”???
Arlean Kelley
posted
Hi all. I think I agree with the spirit and intent of the above posts. I don't believe that any building or meeting place is central. JESUS in central! Nor would I want to be a part of a group that tried to impose "mandatory" attendance. However, I would like to add some nontheological thoughts.
If we fully understand our position as ministers in the Body of Yahshua, and our responsibility and privilege to comfort and exhort and encourage, and even lovingly correct, and build up the precious bride of Christ, then we will want to be present when the body gathers. Every part of the body is important, including you and me--even essential--and it probably will not function as well with one part missing.
It is possible that the Holy Spirit might instruct us to stay away to pray and fast for a special need, or for out-of-town guests or family. But to my thinking, the gathering of the body is similar to our kids getting together for a family gathering. Whether the Bible says, "Thou shalt not miss thy family gatherings" wouldn't even matter. We would be there because we love them.
This is how I feel about the bride of Christ. It isn't an issue of whether I am enjoined to do it. What does that matter? How could I possible "forsake" them? I think if we do not love the body in that way, then we need to pray for love!
I am SO GLAD for the precious believers that are faithful to attend our weekly gathering. Some drive for the better part of an hour to get there. They contribute much to my life and I like to think I contribute to theirs. I thank God for them. It takes a lot to get them to miss. That says something to me. It says that I matter to them. That the group matters!
As for organized church, church buildings, and all that, I left all that behind about 3 years ago and the longer I am in this way, the more convinced I am that this is the will of the Father--that this was His plan from the start.
Well, these are just some thoughts. I hope I have said what I meant to say! This is not disagreement, just another aspect of the subject. I think you all will agree. God bless you all in your service to Him--and to the precious body of our Lord, His church.
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24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
