posted
I visited the NTRF site and stumbled across an article by Eric Svendsen entitled, "On The Lord's Day." The URL is: http://ntrf.org/sunday.html. I read the article with curiosity only to be disappointed in his treatment of the subject matter.
I do not know to what extent this gentleman has endeared himself to you and the home church people but he has not rightly handled the word of God. He assumes that since Sunday is in such wide usage today that he must find justification for it in scripture, rather than just taking the scriptures plainly and reading what they say. If he had done so he would have surely read how it was Paul's custom to go into the Temple on the Sabbath day, just as it was Jesus' custom, according to the commandment (of God).
Mr. Svendsen quotes Acts 20:7 in justification of his argument for Sunday worship but fails to mention that this "first day of the week" spoken of in the verse is in reference to what we today call Saturday evening. Remember, the Jews reckoned the days as beginning at nightfall in accordance with Genesis' account of creation week. "The evening and the morning were the first day." This method of accounting for the days is used repeatedly throughout the New Testament and yet he seems to have ignored this fact totally or is simply blind to it by his zeal to promote the Sunday.
If we look more closely we find that Paul speaks until midnight -- because he is leaving the next day -- and the young man falls out of the window. After reviving the young man, Paul continues to talk until break of day. It would not be unusual for Paul to meet with these brethren in a home after Sabbath worship that day. After all, he was planning to leave the next day and would probably not return. He would continue speaking to them into the evening until midnight of the first day -- which we call Saturday night.
If it is the purpose of the home church teachers to follow the example of the Apostles and their Lord, then they should do so without letting the veil of the modern church overshadow their understanding of scripture. But, if it is their intention to retain the old wine and fill up new skins with it, then it matters not that scripture is handled correctly.
If Paul was teaching the Christians gentiles to worship on Sunday and was meeting on Sabbath merely to be with the Jewish Christians then surely he would have told the gentiles to "come tomorrow on Sunday" to hear him preach the word. But Luke records that "nearly the whole town came the next Sabbath."
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
This would have been a great place to teach the Sunday doctrine. I wonder why or how the Holy Spirit failed to take advantage of this opportunity? Could it be that the Sunday was man's invention?
David, if home church is to succeed it must do it according to what the Lord has spoken, His commandments, and not the commandments of men. God has placed you where you might extend a great influence upon many minds. He has placed me where I am.
Obedience to God is essential. Abraham was counted righteous because he believed God. His belief in God's promise led him to wander in search of the promised land and to wait for the promised son, and to be willing to offer up his son which he saw as a test of his faith in God. In other words, God does not call any man righteous unless God first makes that man righteous. Abraham was counted righteous because he obeyed God. Abraham obeyed God because he had faith in God. When Abraham believed, God imputed unto him the righteousness of Christ. Abraham did no work to attain it but simply placed all his trust in God.
Please don't be confused if I have written this poorly. I fully believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our works. But Hebrews is pretty clear about obedience. Hebrews 5:8,9 -- "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."
Now we know that Jesus did not need to learn obedience, yet, he followed the same steps that we must follow. His life was a continual course of progressively more difficult trials until finally the greatest test of all -- death on the cross. We are to follow in his footsteps. Each of us has a cross to bear. Upon our cross, self must be sacrificed. We must humble ourselves and reckon our flesh to be dead just as Christ humbled himself and became obedient even unto death.
It is not up to every one of us to interpret what our trials and tests will be. We cannot each follow our own course, a way that seems right to us, and end up at the same place as Christ. We must follow the pattern and example of the Author of salvation. Therefore, we must be obedient to Christ. The path that self will choose may involve great sacrifices, for men will even cut themselves and crawl for miles on their knees or lock themselves in monasteries to appease their god, but our God requires that we be faithful to His word. We are not to be guided by our thoughts and emotions or how we feel from day to day for we do not walk by sight or feeling, but we are to be guided by faith -- an intelligent understanding of who God is and what He requires of us. Then guided by the eyes of our heart we are to yield our hearts and wills to Him that He may purify them and return them to us sanctified for His purpose.
This will involve a battle with self but it must be waged. We must bring our bodies under control through our mental capacities which God has created to be used for His glory but which we have perverted and used as a means to please the lusts of our flesh. But now the flesh must die so that Christ may live in our mortal bodies by faith.
If God has commanded that we keep all His commandments then we dare not detour around any of them for it is Christ who sanctifies us and not we ourselves. Therefore, it is essential that we have the same mind as Christ and humble ourselves, become servants, and obedient, even unto death. And in this humble attitude we need to open our Bibles once again and read what the Holy Spirit opens to our understanding rather than looking to justify our traditions.
Would you rather be comfortable or know what is truth? I am convinced that there is no sanctity in the Sunday unless it can be bestowed by the Catholic church. But then I believe Her to be the Mother of harlots.
May God have mercy on us,
Jeff Logan
Denis M.
posted
David, your comments in this forum are right on target. For years I just assumed the Sunday doctrine was truth because it was all I was ever taught. Praise the Lord for his Word and for the wisdom of his true followers in helping me think this through and straighten it out. Recently I was directed to some of Roman Catholicism's source documents in establishing Sunday as the "sabbath". I was shocked to see the blatant disregard, and even changing, of Scripture.
I see nothing wrong with worshiping corporately on Sunday. I see nothing wrong with Sunday being a primary day of worship (though it should not be an obligatory one). It is not, however, the Sabbath, the day of rest. The emphasis of the Sabbath is in its very name: rest. This day, meant for us, is God's gift. The Christian world, indeed the whole world, is missing out on great blessings by not keeping the day holy. Let's rightly divide the two days and finally observe their two different meanings.
I believe in the House Church. It is not a "concept" and it is not an "alternative", it is the original. We may choose to use terms like "concept" and "alternative" when we are trying to be less confrontational in challenging hierarchical establishment. I'm happy I now know the truth on these matters.
vgmacd
posted
In the New Testament, there are directives given by Paul to keep whatever we hold as beliefs in reference to a Sabboth, or New Moon, etc. to oneself. To make Sabboth keeping a doctrine is not what Paul had in mind. Why else would he instruct the beleivers to keep these convictions to oneself? I know some Christians who really love the Lord with all the heart, soul, and mind that consider everyday Holy. That's okay because scripture clearly states some people will hold to that conviction. As for eating meat or vegetables, or abstaining from meat, Paul also said do whatever you should do to not offend your brother who is weak. Eating meat or obstaining from it was not to become a doctrine. We must come back to Jesus Christ's all sufficient work at Calvary and His glorious resurrection as our Sabboth Rest. The work for our sin was made complete at Calvary. If we are to blame the Catholic Faith for giving us Sunday, I believe we are overlooking the biggest error, and that is their practice of sacrificing Christ over and over again in their "mass." These are the issues that deserve our attention as false doctrine, not the fact that some set aside Sunday or another day as their day to have church. (We home church, by the way.)
Worship in Spirit &Truth
posted
I will remind you all of these words from the Lord and leace you with His Spirit. Take special note of His Commands in verse 14 (As for myself, I am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that there is nothing really wrong with eating meat that has been offered to idols. But if someone believes it is wrong, then he shouldn't do it because for him it is wrong. (TLVB, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.)
Rom 14 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
posted
There are many good posts already put forth on this topic, but this topic is of a special interest to me so I will attempt to add something to the pot.
I have attended for many years a fellowship where they teach that Sunday is the Lords Day and also the sabbath.
It came as a big surprise to me when I first heard this message by the Pastor. You just don't know everything about a fellowship until you have been around awhile. And no group is perfect, so you gotta put up and shut up at times to grow.
I had already been in the fellowship for many years before I knew they believed this . I met my wife and married her there and was active in a leadership position as was my wife. We have raised four children during this time and given over 20 years to this ministry, a lot of time, finances etc. and developed many good relationships.
However, I have never believed this teaching to be true,{that sunday was the sabbath} but did not feel it was important enough to bother raising an objection about it for the sake of the unity of the fellowship. My wife's whole family attend and are the core of this group.
However,every day is holy and set apart for worship and the bottom line is that we enter into his rest by faith. We the believers are in a new covenant where the old has been fulfilled, there is a better covenant which is what the entire book of Hebrews points out to us. Read ch. 4 at the least.
Well, recently this topic of the sunday sabbath has surfaced once again in the fellowship, and not due to me, I had been content to leave it alone as previously stated. But this time it was presented more forcefully so I determined to sit down and do a study on the topic and write my thoughts and scriptures down about the sabbath.
I have just completed the study and I had a very enjoyable time doing it. The study ended up being about fifty pages. Needless to say I am NOT looking to put the study in this post, but I would like to make it available to anyone who would like it.
I have been convinced from reading the scriptures that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ. That He is our sabbath rest. I am not quoting tons of scripture here, that's what the fifty pages are about. What I would like to share is that this belief was nothing new to me, but yet I can tell you that this study has changed me, shown me just how far into a religious system you can be in without hardly knowing it!! It's dangerous to mix law and grace together. Many fellowships do this and do not see it ,I am sure.
Now, I have decided that I am going to present the Pastors of this fellowship with the study. I have walked all these years not believing what they taught, considering it to be insignificant and to petty to bother with. We can't agree on everything, that is clear by reading the posts on even this site right?
Yet,I have been increasingly uncomfortable about attending this fellowship since completing the study, even though I have always believed what I believe now, I have a deeper apprecation for the Grace and Mercy of God, now I see concerns which I had not seen nor felt before.
I am told Wine may get better with age, but unfortunately many fellowships do not. They are vibrant when new, but then take on a form that lacks the flexibility necessary.
So, this subject of the sabbath will likely lead to leaving this fellowship. I do not want to be a source of division in this group. I have labored there many years with my wife, but I believe it's time to move on.
I would consider starting a home type church ministry, which is the type of fellowship I started out in back in 1974. Recently, I have started to visit some other fellowships to take the spiritual temperature of the area. I don't see anything like what I envision going on. But I have gotten off the track here.
Worship ,Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, whenever, get into the Spirit singing to the Lord and one another, offer the sacrifice of Praise every day, and enter into His Rest, Just rest in the finished work of Christ 365 days a year by faith, He is the Year of Jubile. I believe there is no better day to meet together than the one you are available or comitted to do so. After all it's different days on this earth at the same time depending on what side of the globe you are on right?
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. Romans 10:4 And the end means the end.
Good to hear from you! I gotta say that I like your words, your attitude, and your modus operandi. We need to be peacemakers in this imperfect world and the imperfect church, no?
I would be very interested in seeing your notes on this subject, brother. Just email them to me if you don't mind. (Click on the handshake icon just above to do so. Your email address will not be made public.) Thanks!
First I want to welcome you to "housechurch." Secondly, I would like to speak to a few things you mentioned in your post but I don't want you to get the impression that I am attacking you. There is real beauty in diversity of experience and knowledge which open wonderful opportunities to dialog on our most favorite subject--salvation through Jesus Christ. So don't be offended if I disagree with you in some areas. That is a pretty normal response when two or more persons talk about important subjects. Try to look at each encounter as a way of broadening your experiences through those of someone else. After all, we can't know or experience everything, so we sometimes rely on the experience of others to help round out our knowledge base. Think of it like school. You talk, I listen (and hopefully learn), and vice versa. So, with that said, let's get started. Okay?
I just want to briefly look at two topics you mentioned. Every day being holy, and Christ, the end of the law for righteousness.
First, let's consider every day being holy. I think I know the spirit in which you made that statement. You were probably thinking that we should live everyday holy unto the Lord. But consider what I have to say about treating every day equal, or alike, or in this case, holy. There really is no commandment from God to keep every day holy. There is a commandment of God to keep the 7th day holy. Some have substituted the 1st day of the week for the 7th. However, there really is no mention of God every sanctifying any other day than the 7th. Nor did He bless and hollow any other day. So if we choose to keep holy a day other than they 7th, I would think we would still want to keep the day God blessed and sanctified as holy in order to comply with His will and commandment. After all, we would not want to be found at the judgment to be disobedient. Another thing to consider about making every day equal (or holy) is that God also commanded us to work 6 days and to support or families and to provide for the poor (esp. widows and orphans). So it is good for a man to work and take care of his family. But if you keep everyday holy, as God intended the 7th day to be kept holy, then you cannot work and support your family and I seriously doubt if God will honor you if you neglect that first duty. I hope you understand that my heart is to do the will of God and not the will of men or my own will. Therefore, I must search to know the will of God.
Secondly, let's consider the scripture, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." This scripture seems to be misused at times so before I state how it is misused and give a scriptural response, let me say that I believe you are interpreting it correctly to mean that the law could not make us righteous in the smallest way but through Christ, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled to the farthest extent, or end, of the law. Sometimes this verse is used to teach that Christ, by His death, destroyed the law (esp. the Ten Commandments). But this can't be because if the law could have been annulled then Christ would not have needed to die. In fact, that teaching makes Christ's death on the cross of none effect because that death was in place of our death which the law demanded. Christ was our substitute. So in reality, Christ death on the cross to pay for our sins was the only way that a just God could save mankind and still uphold His law. Christ's death proves that the law still has power to condemn sinners to death. Also, if the law was abolished with the cross then there hasn't been a single sinner since that time, because "where there is no law, there is no transgression." Rom 4:15. In plain English, you can't break a law that doesn't exist. And you know from scripture that if we say we have not sinned, then we are a liar. And guess what, if we are not sinners then we really don't need a Savior, do we? But the Bible says we "all have sinned" and sin is "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.
One other point about the phrase "end of the law" is that this type of phraseology is used elsewhere in scripture. Look at this verse: 1Ti 1:5, "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned." Substitute "fulfillment" for "end" and it seems to make more sense. "Now the [fulfillment] of the commandment is charity our of a pure heart." Doesn't that make more sense in our modern language? It then agrees with Romans 13:10, "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Can you see how this works?
Now the last verse I want to share on this point is 1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." The end of our faith is fulfilled in the salvation of our souls.
So I am pretty sure you didn't mean to imply that Christ's death abolished the law of Ten Commandments, but I just wanted to share this in case others may have gotten the wrong impression. After all, to bear false witness, or to covet, or to steal, or to commit adultery is today just as sinful as it was in the beginning. And, it surely breaks the first and second of the two greatest commandments of all--Love the Lord, and Love thy Neighbor as thyself. You really can't fulfill either of those if you are breaking one of the lesser commands about lying, stealing, killing, coveting, and the rest.
In parting, let me give you this thought. When God commanded the Israelites to keep His law, were they able to do it? (This is kind of a trick question. Because if you say, "Yes," then I will be quick to point out that they failed miserably just moments after it was given. And, if you say, "No," then I will quickly reply that God never asks us to do anything in our own power and through Christ, all things are possible.) No, they were not able. But Romans 8 tells us why. It says they were weak through the flesh. In other words, our carnal natures are at enmity against God and are not subject to His law (read also, "will"). In fact, our natures cannot be subject to God's law. But Jesus spoke of a new birth and a New Covenant where He would write His laws in our hearts and minds. By writing them in our hearts He is giving us a new desire to love righteousness and hate sin. By writing them in our minds He is enabling us to keep them as though we were no longer ruled by a sinful nature. You see, all of God's bidding are enablings. When Jesus said, "Rise, take up your bed and walk," the cripple believed and obeyed and it was so. When Jesus said, "Let there be light," the elements obeyed and it was so. Just so, when Jesus says, "Thou shalt not," or "Thou shalt," His words have power to change our fleshly natures into spiritual natures. But, just as were His other miracles, we must believe.
Now, take a look at the verse again. "Christ is the [fulfillment] of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes." By His commands, Christ speaks life into these old sinful bones and His words enable us to live in His righteousness if we only believe His promise. He never commands us to do something in our own power that we cannot do. That would not be just. But when He does command, He gives us the power, to all that will receive Him, to become the children of God, the children of Righteousness and Truth, rather than the children of disobedience and lies.
Well, this may be old news for you but I share it here because I thought it needed to be brought to light. If you read it, thanks for listening, again.
Again, welcome to housechurch. I hope we will have many opportunities to fellowship with one another and to learn from one another.
posted
Hi Jeff, Under the topic, "Sunday as meeting day", you wrote to Tim:"First, let's consider every day being holy. I think I know the spirit in which you made that statement. You were probably thinking that we should live everyday holy unto the Lord. But consider what I have to say about treating every day equal, or alike, or in this case, holy. There really is no commandment from God to keep every day holy. There is a commandment of God to keep the 7th day holy. Some have substituted the 1st day of the week for the 7th. However, there really is no mention of God every sanctifying any other day than the 7th. Nor did He bless and hollow any other day. So if we choose to keep holy a day other than they 7th, I would think we would still want to keep the day God blessed and sanctified as holy in order to comply with His will and commandment. After all, we would not want to be found at the judgment to be disobedient. Another thing to consider about making every day equal (or holy) is that God also commanded us to work 6 days and to support or families and to provide for the poor (esp. widows and orphans). So it is good for a man to work and take care of his family. But if you keep everyday holy, as God intended the 7th day to be kept holy, then you cannot work and support your family and I seriously doubt if God will honor you if you neglect that first duty. I hope you understand that my heart is to do the will of God and not the will of men or my own will. Therefore, I must search to know the will of God."
A few comments here: -Re. no comandment of God to keep every day holy, you are right. However, we are commanded to BE HOLY AS HE IS HOLY. (I Peter 1:15,16) That is not a command to be obeyed one day out of seven, but rather to be lived 24/7.
You are right that there is a command to keep the 7th day holy. However, to whom was that command given? It was given to one particular nation, the nation of Israel. (Exodus 16:23 BEFORE the 10 commandments and in Ex.31:13-17 AFTER the Ten were given.) The 7th day sabbath was given as a unique sign between God and Israel, just like 8th day circumcision and the Passover. We Gentiles have never ever been required by God to keep the Sabbath, to circumcise male children on the 8th day or to keep the Passover! But God requires Israelites to do all three FOREVER! (Circumcision,Gen.17, The Passover Ex.12 and the 7th day Sabbath Ex.31)
The Old Covenant was, in fact, the Ten Commandments. (See Deut.4:13) The Ten Commandments were given as a unit and as the basis of a unique relationship between God and the nation of Israel as long as that covenant lasted. Ex.20:2,8; Deut.5:1,12 etc) Every divine covenant in scripture is signified by a visible token or symbol which lasts as long as the covenant. The Old Covenant made at Sinai was signified by the sprinkling of the blood of animal sacrifices. (EX.24) But because that covenant and its token came to an end at Calvary (when the Lord Jesus dedicated the new covenant with Hios own blood) the Old covenant decayed waxed old and vanished away as we read it in Heb.8:13.
The 10 Commandments, contrary to popular opinion, are NOT "the law"! Nowhere in scripture are the 10 referred to as "the law". Rather "the law" is either the Pentateuch (the 5 books of Moses) or the entire old testament scriptures (Genesis to Malachi).
Now I agree with you that the first day of the week was never substituted by God for the 7th, nor has God ever ordained the first as the sabbath! What God establishes to be FOREVER, is never changed to something else in midstream! The sabbath always was and always will be the 7th day. Israelites are to observe the 7th day sabbath FOREVER, NOT because of the Old Covenant (the Ten Commandments), but because God commanded them to do it FOREVER totally apart from the giving of the 10. (Exodus 31:13-17)
Jeff, nobody can be found disobedient to a command at the judgment seat of Christ when that command was not even given to them! Men will never be found disobedient to commands given exclusively to women, children will not be found disobedient to commands given to parents, nor will Gentile Christians ever be found disobedient to commands that were given to the nation of Israel!
Where has God commanded anyone else but Israelites to work 6 days?
So if you truly desire to do God's will, you will realize that if you are not an Israelite by birth, you have absolutely no requirement upon you relative to the 7th day sabbath, no responsibility to circumcise male children on the 8th day after birth and no responsibility to observe Israel's memorial of the Passover! Therefore search out the will of God in this matter! If the Son shall make yiou free, you shall be free indeed!" "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Finally, note a couple of instructions written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to believers on new covenant ground:
In Romans 14:5 and 6 we read:" One man (an Israelite) esteemeth one day above another: another (a Gentile) esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day (the Israelite), regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day (the Gentile), to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."
Notice that Paul is NOT teaching ALL believers to regard the sabbath!
In Colossians 2:13-17 we read:"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
So, if one is an Israelite by birth, fine...be obedient to the Lord and keep the sabbath. But do not place Gentile believers under the bondage of commands of men which God never gave to Gentiles. It was the same principle which Paul stood for in the Book of Galatians: Jewish believers who were required to circumcise their male children the 8th day after birth were attempting to make circumcision a condition of salvation for Gentiles with whom circumcision had nothing to do!
Israeites are to be marked forever by three symbolic and physical practices: (1) circumcision, (2)the annual passover observance and (3)the 7th day sabbath.
But new covenant believers are to be marked by three different symbolic and physical practices: (1)Baptism of believers has to do with the DEAD AND THE LIVING. Romans 6 (2)The Lord's Supper consists of the BREAD AND THE CUP and I Cor 11:23-26 (3)The acknowledgment of headship has to do with the HEAD AND THE HAIR. I Cor.11:1-16
Instead of teaching believers to obey commands given to Israel, would you not be wiser and more obedient to God to rather practice and teach those things that God has given to be practiced by new covenant saints?
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." Romans 11:1
And, God fully intends for them to enter into the New Covenant just as Paul did.
"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ." Phil 3:5-7.
Notice that Paul states he was "blameless" as touching the righteosness of the law. What I believe he is saying is that when he walked in the flesh he did not deviate from the requirements of the law of God, as far as the Pharisees were concerned. He thought himself blameless. No doubt, Paul could have stood up and said, "I am glad I am not like that sinful publican." But now notice what happens when Paul sees the true spirituality of the law after his head-on collision with Jesus on the road that day.
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9.
Paul considered himself blameless like the other Pharisees garbed in their self-righteous robes. But Christ said they were like whited sepulchers. Outside they looked fine, but inside they were rotten. Paul did not know this until he experienced Christ, and the New Covenant. When God wrote His law into Paul's heart, then Paul saw himself as he truly was. What impact did that have in Paul's life? He went from zealous Christian persecutor, to zealous Christian preacher of the Gentiles. He went from a self-righteous sinner to a humble, but righteous, apostle for the Lord.
Does Paul identify the law of which he speaks? He gives us a giant clue.
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Romans 7:7.
Did Paul preach the New Covenant to the Israelite people? Yes.
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:5,6.
Did he just say they were delivered from the law? What does that mean? I believe that what Paul is trying to say is that when they struggled in their own strength to obey God they were too weak and sinful to save themselves by living up to God's righteous standard. In fact, instead of the law being a blessing to them it ended up being a curse because it condemned their wicked lives. They had to be delivered from the condemnation of that law. If not for the cross of Christ they would have remained prisoners of death, trapped in their sins, condemned by the law. But Jesus came to deliver them from that bondage. What bondage? In the prison house of sin and death. When Jesus delivers someone from sin then the law has no power over them any more. They are not under the law but under grace.
Paul identifies the purpose of the law in Romans 3:20.
He restates, no one will ever stand before God guiltless without Christ's atoning sacrifice. I don't care how righteous you think you are in keeping the law.
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:"
Why? because the law was not revealed so that men might obtain righteousness through the law. That will never happen. The law was given to show us our need of a Savior. To point us to Christ.
"for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
No mention of salvation by means of keeping the law!
But then he continues, explaining that even though righteousness does not come by the law, the law is the standard by which God measures the fullness of righteousness in New Covenant believers which is by faith in Jesus Christ. Not of any works that we have done, but by His grace through faith.
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe."
I think it is significant to point out that the righteousness of God that is manifested in New Covenant believers, without the [works] of the law, is witnessed by the law and the prophets. Interpret that as broadly as you like, even as the whole of the Old Testament. It matters not to me. Every word of God is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. My point is that contained within the Word of God is the righteous standard by which we are judged. That cannot be denied.
Well, it looks like a quick note has turned into a lengthy one. Let me get to my second point.
We are the New Covenant believers. But so is anyone else who believes. It doesn't matter who they are. There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek, man or woman. All can come to Christ as their personal Savior. Paul was born an Israelite yet he was born again into the family of God and is surely a New Covenant believer. Therefore, the Jews are not separated by laws or rites. They are separated by choice because they refused Christ. They will never "get it right" and be able to keep the law so as to stand righteous before God without the blood of Jesus. For one thing, they have all sinned already. Nothing but the blood of Jesus can remit one sin. If they continue to trust in their own self-righteousness by keeping the law and never accept Christ as their Savior from sin, then they have no hope of being saved. Not one lick of them.
But yet, the Bible says that "all Israel shall be saved." Some interpret this to mean that every natural born Jew will be eventually saved. This is not good Bible study and it has generated some really unusual doctrines. Remember this one thing. Jesus clearly said that those who are born of flesh will not inherit the kingdom. Flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom. So there is no magic passage to heaven through natural birth. In fact, the only passage to heaven is for those who are born again, born of the spirit and not of the flesh. And, those who believe are the children of Abraham and not those born from his loins. So we as Gentiles who believe can claim to be Abraham's seed, in God's eyes, with a louder voice than any person who can prove they descended directly from Abraham's loins. And, since Jesus will know those who are His, He will apply the same standard He applied when He walked the earth.
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39.
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Mt 3:9.
"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt 8:11.
So we are the Israelites--we who believe as did Abraham. Abraham's believe in God lead to His obedience.
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:21,22.
And Paul identifies the true Jew (is that the same as Israelite?).
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
(Sometimes I wish a had easier access to another translation. The KJV doesn't always say things in words that are easy for modern Americans to understand. Hopefully, we can see that Paul is saying that a true Jew is not something external such as circumcision of the flesh. But, a true Jew is someone whose heart has been circumcised with the love of God. There obedience is not to the letter of the law but rather, the spirit of the law--which is love for God and neighbor.)
Then Paul, again, tells us that Gentiles will fulfill the righteousness of the law (through faith in Jesus) and that it will be counted for circumcision in much the same way that Abraham's faith was counted as righteouness. And, the outward manifestation of the law of God written in the Gentile heart will condemn the sinful practices of the Jew who professes to be keeping the law but in truth is transgression it.
"Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
A true Jew, Paul explains, is not outward, but inward. The true Jew is circumcised in the heart? The fleshly Jew is circumcised in the flesh only.
What does Paul mean by a circumcised heart?
Col 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ."
2Co 3:3 "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
First off, I don't see how your last post is a response to mine before it! I was addressing the matter of the sabbath, not of all that is entailed relative to the law!
But let me say this: I agree with almost everything you wrote above!
-Yes, converted Israelites come into the new covenant just as we Gentiles do!
-Certainly, Romans 7 tells us the law said, "Thou shalt not covet". The ten commandments are PART of the law, but they are NOT THE LAW in and of themselves.
-Yes, Paul preached the new covenant to Israelites.
-Yes, everyone who believes in Christ is a new covenant believer.
But one statement you made, I cannot agree with. You wrote:" So we are the Israelites--we who believe as did Abraham."
Many assume that since we are the seed of Abraham (through Christ) as Galatians 3 tells us, that we are thus Israelites! Those who claim this forget that Abraham, himself, was NOT an Israelite! Neither was his son Isaac, nor was Ishmael! There were no Israelites until the next generation when Jacob became the first Israelite and father of all the rest.
-Yes, every Jew or Gentile who are found in Christ are the seed of Abraham and the children of God by faith in Christ. But in Christ, just as freemen do not become bondmen, bondmen do not become freemen, men do not become women, women do not become men, Jews do not become Gentiles and Gentiles do not become Jews! Rather, they must all come to God on the very same ground and none have any preference over the other.
But, Jeff, I would be interested to hear your response to my remarks relative to sabbath keeping and why you expect Christians all to keep the 7th day sabbath.
Just so we don't confuse anyone. I don't feel compelled to convince anyone to keep the 7th day Sabbath unless they have a desire to obey God from an intelligent appreciation of His character. As I have stated earlier in other posts, God never accepts forced worship. He gave us intelligence and free moral agency so that through comprehension of His love for us we might render to Him our willing service. If we do not love God first and foremost then no amount of service will accomplish anything.
I don't think we need to discuss whether or not we should obey God. I believe every Christian understands and believes that to be true. Nor do I think we need to discuss whether or not the 7th day Sabbath is a commandment of God. I believe you concur that it is. So the only point left to discuss would be whether or not the 7th day Sabbath is binding on all Christians, or Israelites only. That is why, in my last post, I attempted to show that every believing Christian is an Isrealite. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say because when you repeated it, it sounded more like I expected them to become physical descendents of Abraham through the flesh. However, I was speaking to the spiritual level, the new birth, and righteousness by faith. Perhaps a review of where the word Israel come from will help us understand each other.
Do you remember where we first see the word Israel? Right! God changed Jacob's name to Israel. Understanding why God changed Jacob's name will help us understand who are the Israelites.
Ge 32:28 "And he said, Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel: for in your fight with God and with men you have overcome."
Jacob's name was changed to Israel because He overcame His fears and trusted God to save Him. We are to become overcomers as well in the same way.
1Jo 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
Re 2:7 "...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
If we overcome this world, if we contend with God and overcome, then God will also change our name to Israel, because we overcame.
So in this sense, Abraham was an overcomer. But we don't see this word until Jacob.
You wrote:"I don't think we need to discuss whether or not we should obey God. I believe every Christian understands and believes that to be true. Nor do I think we need to discuss whether or not the 7th day Sabbath is a commandment of God. I believe you concur that it is. So the only point left to discuss would be whether or not the 7th day Sabbath is binding on all Christians, or Israelites only. That is why, in my last post, I attempted to show that every believing Christian is an Isrealite. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say because when you repeated it, it sounded more like I expected them to become physical descendents of Abraham through the flesh. However, I was speaking to the spiritual level, the new birth, and righteousness by faith. Perhaps a review of where the word Israel come from will help us understand each other.
Do you remember where we first see the word Israel? Right! God changed Jacob's name to Israel. Understanding why God changed Jacob's name will help us understand who are the Israelites."
Then you quoted:Ge 32:28; 1Jo 5:4 and Re 2:7 which use the word "overcome". Thus you equated "Israel" with "overcomers" and then make the following conclusion:"If we overcome this world, if we contend with God and overcome, then God will also change our name to Israel, because we overcame."
All I am saying is this: As far as I have been able to see in scripture, every Israelite in the Bible was a physical descendant of Jacob. In Romans 9:3 and 4, Paul defines them as "my kinsmen after the flesh". In Romans 10:1, he says that his hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved!
Now, if people can become "Israelites" by any other means than by physical descent from the man named Jacob who was renamed Israel, and if scripture truly teaches that there is another way to become an Israelite, I am certainly ready to be reproved and corrected.
If there are any examples in scripture of people who were not physical descendants of Jacob who are called Israelites, please direct our attention to such.
I certainly agree that God has determined to call them his people who were not his people, and her beloved which was not beloved. Also that where it was said unto them, "ye are not my people", there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:25,26
But please notice that God does NOT say that those who were not his people would be called "Israel"!
Contrary to your supposition that "Israelites" are overcomers, Romans 10:21 seems to indicate otherwise! "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
So apart from scriptural statements to the contrary, the commandment to observe a 7th day sabbath is addressed and intended by God ONLY for people who are the physical descendants of Jacob. Thus it is no disobedience for people of other nations when they do not observe the 7th day sabbath, it was NOT a commandment TO THEM! In just the same way, I am not disobedient when I do not obey commands of God addressed to women and my wife is not disobedient when she does not obey commands of God addressed to men.
By the way, Jeff, if you believe that you are an Israelite, do you observe all the scriptural commands that are given regarding the observance of the 7th day sabbath? Do you observe the Passover annually as Israel has been commanded by God forever? If you have any male children did you have them circumcised on the 8th day after their births? If you are consistent, you must observe 8th day circumcision, 7th day sabbaths and the annual passover as they are required by God of all Israelites FOREVER! IF YOU DON'T, YOU ARE DISOBEDIENT TO CLEAR COMMANDS OF GOD WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN REVOKED OR CHANGED FOR ISRAEL. See Gen.17; Exodus 12 and Exodus 31.
I'll appreciate it if you show from scripture that anyone can become an Israelite other than by physical birth and that you tell us what your personal practices are relative to all scriptural 7th day sabbath commands, 8th day circumcision, and the passover. Your response or lack of it will clearly demonstrate what you truly believe about Israel and whether or not you are an Israelite.
Thank you for kind response. Do you ask that you may learn or do you ask because you think I cannot defend my beliefs. If it is the later then I am afraid whatever I say will not benefit you. But others may be benefited so I will try to explain with even more text.
Right now I am going to leave you with this thought. Which gate will you enter through to the New Jerusalem? Same say we will enter by way of the gate that fits our personality or experiences. There are only twelve!
Re 21:12 "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"
Being away from your post for a while gave me opportunity to think about it some more. I think there is a huge gap here that I may need to fill in. Remember how I told you earlier that Paul was an Israelite. You know the kind of conversion Paul experienced and I mentioned some of the effect on his life. Well, think about the Israelite's under the Old Covenant. Now think about them under the New Covenant. What, you say? Yes, didn't Paul accept Christ by faith and therefore enter into the New Covenant. The new "Israelite" is also under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is no more. So I was kinda suprised to see you write the following.
quote:By the way, Jeff, if you believe that you are an Israelite, do you observe all the scriptural commands that are given regarding the observance of the 7th day sabbath? Do you observe the Passover annually as Israel has been commanded by God forever? If you have any male children did you have them circumcised on the 8th day after their births? If you are consistent, you must observe 8th day circumcision, 7th day sabbaths and the annual passover as they are required by God of all Israelites FOREVER! IF YOU DON'T, YOU ARE DISOBEDIENT TO CLEAR COMMANDS OF GOD WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN REVOKED OR CHANGED FOR ISRAEL. See Gen.17; Exodus 12 and Exodus 31.
Why would you want to place anyone back under the Old Covenant that you know to be only a shadow of the true? All of the shadowy types are fulfilled in Christ. You know all this but just to make sure we are on the same page I will restate some of them. Christ is our passover lamb so we celebrate the passover differently now that there is no need to slay animals. Another point, many male children are still circumcised in the flesh at a very early age for health reasons but not for faith in Christ. So you have been confused all this time about how Jews must be saved. They are not going to be saved in another manner that we are. There is only one name under heaven whereby we are saved. That name is Jesus Christ. If they never accept Christ as their Savior then they refuse the salvation through His sacrifice as well. I hope that you are not trying to imply that my obedience to God are works of self-righteousness. You should know from the scripture that it is impossible for man to obey God without faith in Jesus as a personal Savior. I also hope that you have not now become my judge or a judge of the law.
I don't know if we can even take a look at whether or not God considers us "Isralites" until we settle this fundamental issue which would effect my whole premise. As long as you view obedience to God as legalism we are not going to make much headway because you will resist any obligation that feels forced upon you rather than evoked by reciprocal love for Jesus. And rightly you should. One should never be taught to think that salvation can be earned. That would really minimalize the sacrifice of Jesus.
Another matter we need to resolve before we can move forward is that when I say "Israelite" I am not speaking of being born a physical descendent of Israel (Jacob). That would be foolish of me to attempt to prove something that far fetched. Nor am I speaking of one who lives in Israel. No one can change their birth parents but someone could move to Israel and perhaps then thy might be considered an Israelite after a period of time through naturalization. But I am not speaking of either of those definitions of the word Israelite. The suffix -ite can mean follower. Therefore, the word Israelite could be defined as someone who is a follower of Israel. Much like a Jacobite. God called Jacob Israel because he strove with God and overcame. We, as overcomers, follow in that same path as Jacob did. We contend with God and overcome. Jacob overcame because he trusted to God for his deliverance from his brother. We overcome because we trust to God for our deliverance from sin and its hold on us. Jacob saw Christ as that ladder stretching down from heaven for man to ascend. We also see Christ as that ladder between God and man.
Anyway, let's leave it here for now until we see if we agree on the first tenets which are the building blocks for my argument.
I'll leave you with another scripture to contemplate and a radical statement for this Radically Christian Cafe. Only Jews will be saved. Furthermore, all Jews will be saved. What?! Stay with me. Do you believe that we are saved under the New Covenant and not the old? Yes, so do I. With whom did the Lord promise to make this New Covenant? Not with the Gentiles!
quote:"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8:8 and Jeremiah 31:31.
Yes, I honestly do want to learn! I have often been wrong in the past and it has been people who differed with me or challenged my thinking who were the most beneficial to me. I never enjoy finding out that I'm wrong, but once I do it's far better to acknowledge I was wrong and agree with God on the matter rather than holding an old opinion knowing full well that I'm wrong! So, yes, I very much want you to show me my error if I really am wrong on this. If scripture clearly teaches that I've been wrong, I'll acknowledge it here and change what I believe and teach on these things.
As far as anyone being able to "defend their beliefs", I've come to learn that if a belief needs my defence it's not worth holding onto in the first place! Scriptural doctrines and beliefs are all amply stated in the very words of scripture and thus defend themselves.
Re. which gate will I enter into the New Jerusalem,....I don't see anything in scripture that teaches that one must be of one of the tribes of Israel to enter the city! There are also twelve foundations and in them the names of the twelve apostles! (Rev.21:14) Wouldn't it be rather foolish to ask you which apostle is your foundation? Every true child of God has entered in by the door. The Lord Jesus said, I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved." Paul also said, "Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid which is Jesus Christ." (I Cor.3:11)
As you continued, I would suggest that we take one thing at a time. Yes, Paul was under the new covenant. BUT it was while writing as a new covenant believer and as an apostle appointed by the Lord Jesus Christ that Paul defined "Israelites" as his kinsmen ACCORDING TO FLESH". Notice, he did NOT define Israelites as his kinsmen AFTER THE SPIRIT!
It was also as a new covenant believer and as an apostle that he wrote that God spoke to Israel and called them a "disobedient and gainsaying people"! Israelites were NOT a people who were obedient, sanctified and submissive to God!
You see, Israelites were Israelites long before the old covenant was made at Sinai and Gentiles were also Gentiles long before the old covenant came into being. The institution and the vanishing away of the old covenant had nothing at all to do with the institution of a national group of people called "Israel" which God guaranteed would NEVER CEASE FROM BEING A NATION! (JEREMIAH 31:35-37)The Israelites or children of Israel have always been and always will be the children (physical descendants of Israel)! The bringing in of the new covenant by the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary did not change the identity of Israelites one iota.
I also agree with you that the old covenant made at Sinai is no more. It was a covenant that was NOT established forever! The terms and institution and signifying of this covenant with the sprinkling of animal blood takes place between Exodus 19 and 24. But notice that circumcision predated this Sinaitic covenant by about 400 years! (Gen.17) While the old covenant was NOT established FOREVER, circumcision WAS! The very same things hold true for Israel's Passover observance: -it was established before they ever left Egypt (Ex.12) and was established to be observed FOREVER! And exactly the same things are true of Israel's mandate to work 6 days and then rest on the 7th day sabbath:...this was established in Exodus 16 BEFORE THEY ARRIVED AT SINAI. Then, in Ex.31:13-17, some time AFTER the Sinaitic Covenant had been made, agreed to by the Israelites and signified by the sprinkling of blood, God instructed them that the keeping of the 7th day sabbath was a sign between him and the nation of Israel FOREVER! So neither the institution nor the duration of circumcision, passover observance or 7th day sabbath observance was linked in any way with the old covenant!!! The covenant was NOT FOREVER, but for Israelites, circumcision, passover observance and 7th day sabbath keeping WERE AND ARE FOREVER! That is why orthodox Jews still observe all three as well they should! God never gave Israel the slightest hint that such observances should be altered one bit after Calvary! What He commands to be done forever is to be done FOREVER by those whom He commanded to do it!
Jeff, I never said a word about Jews being saved in any other way than by faith in Christ! I never said that circumcision, passover observance or 7th day sabbath observance were NECESSARY FOR SALVATION!!! (You have certainly "put words in my mouth" here!)They are simply commands to be obeyed, just as new covenant believers have many commands to be obeyed (constrained by the love of Christ, not by legalistic obligation!)
Nor, Jeff, have I become your judge! But if you CLAIM to be an Israelite, your own disobedience to commands addressed specificly to Israelites, judges you! You claimed that you as an Israeite ought to keep the 7th day sabbath, so I simply asked you to tell us how you do that? What commands relative to observing the 7th day sabbath do you obey and what commands relative to sabbath keeping do you not obey? Was it not you who said that these were commands of God? Was it not you who said they were to be obeyed? So am I not justified to ask you if you obey the very commands which you say ought to be obeyed???? How does that make me the judge??? I'm just asking questions to see if you really believe what you profess! It seems now that you really do not believe what you profess because you seem unwilling now to tell us of your obedience to God's 7th day sabbath commands! No one believes anything which they do not practice! One may PROFESS and not practice, but BEHAVIOUR flows out of what one actually believes.
You continued:"Another matter we need to resolve before we can move forward is that when I say "Israelite" I am not speaking of being born a physical descendent of Israel (Jacob). That would be foolish of me to attempt to prove something that far fetched. Nor am I speaking of one who lives in Israel. No one can change their birth parents but someone could move to Israel and perhaps then thy might be considered an Israelite after a period of time through naturalization. But I am not speaking of either of those definitions of the word Israelite. The suffix -ite can mean follower. Therefore, the word Israelite could be defined as someone who is a follower of Israel...."
As I have expressed before, I believe that Israelites are ONLY physical descendants of Jacob. I have also acknowledged the possibility that I might be wrong, and I have asked you to prove with scripture that I am wrong. All you need to do is to show an example of one who is not a physical descendant of Jacob who is called an "Israelite" by God or an inspired writer of scripture. You have given your own explanations. First an Israelite was supposedly an "overcomer"! Now you try to tell me that an Israelite is a "Follower of Israel"!! Jeff, which one is it? And where are the statements of scripture that comprise this doctrine? This is precisely what I meant. Doctrines which need human defence are not worth defending, but scriptural doctrines need only to be stated in words of scripture. They ARE their own defence!
Jeff, you concluded with a statement which you claim is a "radical statement". You wrote:"I'll leave you with another scripture to contemplate and a radical statement for this Radically Christian Cafe. Only Jews will be saved. Furthermore, all Jews will be saved. What?! Stay with me. Do you believe that we are saved under the New Covenant and not the old? Yes, so do I. With whom did the Lord promise to make this New Covenant? Not with the Gentiles!
Jeff, "radical" does not mean "off the wall", "unconventional" or "without basis"! Rather the word "radical" has to do with a return to THE ROOT of the matter! Nowhere does scripture ever teach or intimate that ONLY JEWS WILL BE SAVED! Rather, scripture clearly teaches that in Abraham, all nations of the earth would be blessed. (Gen.12:3) Peter declared in Acts 15:14 "how God did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name."
Jeremiah's prophecy of a future day in which God would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah WAS A PROPHECY DIRECTED TO ISRAEL AND JUDAH. It is true the new covenant (made by the Lord Jesus) would be made with Judah and Israel. It is also true that the new covenant was also made with Gentile believers! How do we know that? From II Corinthians (an epistle written to a Gentile church). In II Cor.3 Paul writes to these Gentile believers in these words: (notice the various descriptions or designations of new covenant features as they are contrasted with the old)... Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
I hope these remarks might clarify a few things anyway. Bruce
I appreciate your comments and willingness to continue with our dialog. I am learning a lot from you as well. I was interpreting the word "Radical" as the more modern definition from Websters.
quote:3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional : EXTREME b : tending or disposed to make extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c : of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with views, practices, and policies of extreme change d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>
I believe house church is well described by this definition. That is not a negative in light of the fact that the common HC view of the IC is that some radical reform needs to occur. And it is in keeping with your definition because if you have departed from the root then getting back to the root could be considered as marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional. Amen?
I have a few moments so I am going to try to address each point you brought out. You did bring out some valid points that I shall attempt to address and give my perception of what it means. (I use the word 'perception' because you have doubts as to its truth, at present.)
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodford: As you continued, I would suggest that we take one thing at a time. Yes, Paul was under the new covenant. BUT it was while writing as a new covenant believer and as an apostle appointed by the Lord Jesus Christ that Paul defined "Israelites" as his kinsmen ACCORDING TO FLESH". Notice, he did NOT define Israelites as his kinsmen AFTER THE SPIRIT!
I believe it was to distinguish the Israelite "after the flesh" from the Israelite "after the spirit" that Paul felt it necessary to make the distinction in this verse. Else, why would he need to specify "after the flesh" if it was readily apparent that there was only one type of Israelite? Do you see my logic?
quote:It was also as a new covenant believer and as an apostle that he wrote that God spoke to Israel and called them a "disobedient and gainsaying people"! Israelites were NOT a people who were obedient, sanctified and submissive to God!
They were sanctified in the sense that God set them apart to himself. And even though some were disobedient, many were faithful. At least 7000 at the time of the great apostasy. That probably respresented families because often only the males were numbered. My argument is not with physical Israel. Remember I already quoted scripture to show that true Israel are those who are born into Christ and follow the example of Jacob who wrestled with God and man and overcame. Jesus told the leaders that if they were Abraham's seed--and thus, Isael's seed, because of the lineage--then they would do the works of Abraham. Jesus saw true Israelites as those who do the works of Abraham. I believe that means righteousness by faith.
quote: You see, Israelites were Israelites long before the old covenant was made at Sinai and Gentiles were also Gentiles long before the old covenant came into being. The institution and the vanishing away of the old covenant had nothing at all to do with the institution of a national group of people called "Israel" which God guaranteed would NEVER CEASE FROM BEING A NATION! (JEREMIAH 31:35-37)The Israelites or children of Israel have always been and always will be the children (physical descendants of Israel)! The bringing in of the new covenant by the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary did not change the identity of Israelites one iota.
I know this may sound silly but this promise that Israel would never cease to be a nation surely doesn't mean that there will be a distinction in heaven between Gentile and Israel. And, does it make sense that Gentiles (unconverted persons) will be in heaven? Surely, Gentiles will be converted to believers and will be in heaven. But not as Gentiles. The believing Gentiles were grafted in where Israel was pruned.
Well, I don't think we are going to make much progress in this fashion. I think it would be better if I conclude my original essay rather than respond to each of your comments. I would, however, like to apologize for attempting to put words in your mouth. I should have stated more clearly that it was my interpretation (misunderstanding) of what I thought you were trying to say. I did not mean to offend you or put you in a bad light. To me it seems that you were trying to tell me that if I believed I was an Israelite then I needed to do something different in order to be saved. To me that sounded like you honestly believed that God has different requirements for Gentiles and Jews. And in my mind that sounds like God IS a respecter of persons in that he would distinquish between the Jew and Gentile in such a manner as stated.
So let me end here for now. My wife has some chores for me to do. I will get back to the exiting conclusion, as soon as I can, and show scripturally that through Jesus we are born again into His family. Jesus was a Jew, BTW. Born under the law, circumcised the 8th day, and kept the Passover. Just an interesting point I bring out.
Here are some more texts to consider.
quote: Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ‘s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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Hi Jeff, Re. our use of the term "radical" with reference to church doctrine and practice, you wrote in part:"if you have departed from the root then getting back to the root could be considered as marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional. Amen?" A hearty "Amen!" to that!!
Re. my remarks about "Israel" always being a physical, national group of people , descendants of Jacob and of Paul's description of them as "my kinsmen according to the flesh", you wrote:"I believe it was to distinguish the Israelite "after the flesh" from the Israelite "after the spirit" that Paul felt it necessary to make the distinction in this verse. Else, why would he need to specify "after the flesh" if it was readily apparent that there was only one type of Israelite? Do you see my logic?
Jeff, Paul was NOT distinguishing between TWO KINDS OF ISRAELITES (two kinds of Israelites are never mentioned in scripture!), but rather between TWO KINDS OF BRETHREN! There were his brethren after the flesh (Israel) by natural birth in the flesh (John 3:6a), and there were his brethren IN CHRIST (the children of God, saints, disciples, believers etc) by the new birth, in the Spirit (John 3:6b)
I do not intend to be offensive here, but Jeff, I believe your perspective arises from a presupposition not rooted in scripture, namely that Christians are "spiritual Israelites". I realize that this is a very common and accepted teaching in many circles. But as far as I can tell, it has no scriptural basis whatsoever.
Re. my remark that,"Israelites were NOT a people who were obedient, sanctified and submissive to God!", you responded..."They were sanctified in the sense that God set them apart to himself. And even though some were disobedient, many were faithful. At least 7000 at the time of the great apostasy. That probably respresented families because often only the males were numbered. My argument is not with physical Israel. Remember I already quoted scripture to show that true Israel are those who are born into Christ and follow the example of Jacob who wrestled with God and man and overcame. Jesus told the leaders that if they were Abraham's seed--and thus, Isael's seed, because of the lineage--then they would do the works of Abraham. Jesus saw true Israelites as those who do the works of Abraham. I believe that means righteousness by faith."
Yes, it is true that the nation of Israel was set apart unto the Lord. There always was a very small faithful remnant, but the nation generally was aptly described as Paul described them in Romans 9. You have quoted or referred me to the scriptures commonly used to buttress the "spiritual Israel" idea. But you have not cited a single instance of a Gentile believer referred to as an Israelite in scripture. That MUST be the test of any doctrine! Is it stated in the PURE WORDS of scripture? (Ps.12:6) Does it require ADDITIONAL WORDS not found in scripture? (Proverbs 30:5,6) and Can it be stated in WORDS WHICH THE HOLY GHOST TEACHES, or is it absolutely dependent on WORDS WHICH MAN'S WISDOM TEACHES? ( I Cor.2:13)
Jeff, is the term "true Israelites" found in scripture? Does scripture teach that all who "do the works of Abraham" or who are marked by the "righteousness of faith" are "Israelites"? As I've mentioned before, I will happily acknowledge I was wrong, and I will change my belief and teaching on this subject if you provide me with scriptural statements that teach what you are teaching.
In response to my reminder, from Jer.31:35-37, that Israel would NEVER CEASE FROM BEING A NATION, you responded:" I know this may sound silly but this promise that Israel would never cease to be a nation surely doesn't mean that there will be a distinction in heaven between Gentile and Israel. And, does it make sense that Gentiles (unconverted persons) will be in heaven? Surely, Gentiles will be converted to believers and will be in heaven. But not as Gentiles. The believing Gentiles were grafted in where Israel was pruned."
Jeff, what scripture ever taught us that "heaven" would be the eternal abode of all saved people??? What scripture ever taught us that Christians "go to heaven when they die"? Every person in scripture who went to heaven, went there WHILE THEIR PHYSICAL BODY WAS ALIVE AND WELL! Scripture does teach us that we will "ever be with the Lord" (I Thess.4:17) But it does not (as far as I can tell) teach that he will always be in heaven! Am I wrong?
Further, if the fact that Israel will never cease from being a nation DOES NOT MEAN that there will be an eternal distinction between Israel and other gentiles (nations), can you tell me what it DOES mean?
Galatians 3 teaches that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free. Now does that mean that either now or in eternity divine distinctions between Israelites and Gentiles and males and females have ceased or will cease to exist??? I hardly think so! The distinction between bond and free is certainly a man-made distinction which will cease, but do we have any reason to believe that distinctions which God has made will cease to exist?
Jeff, where does scripture teach that Gentiles by definition are "unconverted people"? If that was the case, unconverted Israelites would be Gentiles!!! Do you not see the troubles that result from supposing that "Israelites" are "believers" by definition and "Gentiles" are the unconverted? The word translated "Gentiles" is the Greek word ETHNOS. A "Gentile" simply denotes a physical person of a particular ethnic group. So too, an "Israelite" simply denotes a physical person of the nation "ETHNOS" of Israel. Gentiles who are saved do NOT cease to be Gentiles. They do not lose their own "ethnicity". Neither do Israelites cease to be Israelites after the flesh when they get saved! The fact that Israel will never cease to be a nation forever, is a very clear assurance that there will always be PHYSICAL PEOPLE and PHYSICAL NATIONS for eternity! The nations (Gentiles) have their place in eternity! This is very clear in the following passages in the last two chapters of the Book of Revelation: Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street o
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