posted
Many Old Testament shadows and types were fulfilled in Christ as revealed in the New Testament.
For example:
The Lamb of God is the antitype of the sacrificial system. The sacrifice of the literal lamb foreshadowed the death of the true Lamb of God.
The Passover was a foreshadowing of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus Christ and was more fully fulfilled in Christ than by ancient Israel.
The earthly priesthood foreshadowed the work of the Heavenly High Priest, Jesus Christ.
The earthly Tabernacle was a shadow of the Heavenly Tabernacle with both Holy and Most Holy Places.
There are others. But what about Israel as a nation? Did they foreshadow a "Spiritual Israel" that would believe the promises of God and become the receipients of all things promised to literal Israel on condition of obedience? Were they the typical to be replaced by the antitypical? This person believes so, as many others do.
Are We Spiritual Israel?
If you think this subject is of little importance—read on. Many widely accepted teachings are founded on the belief that literal Israel is the only nation God ever called Israel. What you may not have considered is that while it is widely accepted that God made His Old Covenant with literal Israel, the New Covenant was also made with Israel, and Judah. God never made this promise to Gentiles.
I hope you read this article and let me know what you think. But if you really want to read a well prepared treatise on the subject then see the website http://www.amazingfacts.org and locate their booklet called “Spiritual Israel.” It really brings out some finer points. After reading it I was rejuvenated and beamed for many days. I didn't realize the true significance of this truth until I read that booklet. And, even though I had learned this in my personal study of scripture it reaffirmed my faith to see that there were others who believed as I did. I was glad they had taken the time to explain it with such clarity.
You Must Be Born Again
In the third chapter of the gospel of John is recorded a conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Jesus knows Nicodemus' unspoken question and tells him, “You must be born again.” Nicodemus doesn't seem to understand. He shows how odd he thinks this statement to be by responding with bit of mockery. “How can a man enter again into his mother's womb so he may be born again?” Jesus explains, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
The important thing to consider here is that God considers us his children not by physical birth but by spiritual birth. In fact, the physical birth has no merit with God for he is not racist. “God is no respecter of persons.” With God, our past is not an obstacle nor an advantage.
Misapplied Prophecies
Jesus taught that his kingdom was not of this world and could not be observed outwardly but that “the kingdom of God is within you.” Yet the prophecies were misapplied and they watched for him to overthrow the Romans and sit himself on the throne of David. After Jesus was crucified his disciples lamented, Luke 24:21 “But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.” After his resurrection they asked him, Acts 1:6 “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”
The important point to consider here is that as men we look at the things which can be seen. But God sees that which cannot be seen by mere men. We need our sight aided by the Holy Spirit to see as God sees. Could it be that today sincere people are still thinking that these prophecies will be fulfilled in a literal nation of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem?
Israel in the Old Testament
The name Israel was first applied to Jacob. God gave Jacob the name after his night of wrestling with his supernatural opponent. Genesis 32:28. Later, God applied this name to the tribes which descended from Jacob's twelve sons as demonstrated in this verse. “And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn. And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me.” Exodus 4:22,23
The important thought to consider here is that Israel is the name God gave to Jacob first, after he contended with God and men and was victorious—he was an overcomer. Later, God uses this same name, Israel, to refer to the descendants of Jacob, the 12 tribes, which the Lord also expected to be overcomers—to contend with God and men and be victorious.
Israel in the New Testament
Baby Jesus was taken by Joseph into Egypt to escape Herod's death decree, “and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” Matthew 2:15. Matthew applies the prophecy of Hosea to Jesus. “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.”Hosea 11:1.
The important thing to see here is the dual application of scripture. Matthew shows that the passage which originally referred to the nation of Israel coming out of Egypt is now applied to Jesus. So Jesus is also called Israel. And, why not? Jesus perfectly fulfills that name because he overcame all sin.
Christ's Story Repeats Ancient Israels' Story
A careful study of the history of ancient Israel in comparison to Christ's life will show that there are many parallel events in common with the exception that Christ overcame on every point where they failed. This is important to remember. Christ became our substitute and succeeded where we failed. The following points were actually noted by Pastor Doug Bachelor in his booklet called, “Spiritual Israel. This is very interesting. (This is not a direct quote and is used by permission).
A man called Joseph has dreams and goes into Egypt to preserve his family
God calls his son out of Egypt as the nation of Israel first and then baby Jesus
After coming out of Egypt Israel is “baptized unto Moses” in the red sea. Jesus is baptized and God proclaims him, “My beloved Son.”
After crossing the Red Sea Israel spends 40 years in the wilderness led by God's Spirit (in the form of a pillar of fire). Immediately after Jesus' baptism he was led by the spirit into the wilderness for 40 days.
At the end of the 40 years in the wilderness Moses writes Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness he resists Satan's temptations by quoting three scriptures from Deuteronomy.
In Psalm 80:8 God calls Israel a “vine” that he brought out of Egypt. Jesus later declares, “I am the true vine.”
In the OT the name Israel was first applied to one man, Jacob, representing his victory over sin. Even so, in the NT Jesus is Israel that came “out of Egypt.” He is the one victorious man who overcame all sin.
The Seed Of Abraham
In Isaiah 41:8 God is speaking to the nation of Israel and calls them “the seed of Abraham.” But in Gal 3:16 Paul demonstrates that Christ is the seed of Abraham. “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Repeatedly we see how statements that once were applied to the nation of Israel are now applied to Jesus Christ.
Royal Priesthood
Remember that the name Israel originally applied to Jacob but was later applied to his descendants? Well, we see the same in the NT. God said unto the nation of Israel. “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.” Exodus 19:5,6. But Peter applied these very words to the early church. “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people.”1 Peter 2:9.
The important thing to notice here is that Peter is applying a promise given to the nation of Israel--Israel after the flesh--to the early church of believers. Peter is saying, “this, God said about you. He said it not for the nation of Israel alone, for the fulfillment of this promise is yours, if you are Christ's.”
The Body of Christ
Now if Christ is the seed and we are in Christ then we are the seed of Abraham, too. And we are heirs according to the promise. The promises given to the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant are now promised to us, who are the Spiritual Nation of Israel, in the New Covenant. We do not go to Jerusalem to worship God but we worship Him in spirit wherever we meet. Even in the home church. Whoever is in Christ. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29.
Christ's Church is One Body
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” 1 Corinthians 12:13,14.
Notice there is no schism in the body of Christ. “One body, One Spirit... One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.” There is no distinction between the members pertaining to their birth. We are “one” in Christ. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Scattered Tribes
James addressed the early church of Christ as the twelve tribes of Israel. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” James 1:1.
Questionable Heritage
Paul writes in Romans chapter 9 that his kinsmen according to the flesh are Israelites. That is in verse 3. But then he apparently contradicts himself in verses 6 and 7 when he says, “They are not all Israel, which are of Israel,” and “Neither are they Abraham’s children just because they are his seed.” (my translation).
Now these statements make no sense until we understand that there is an Israel “after the flesh” and there is an Israel after the Spirit. Then it makes sense. I believe Paul is saying that just because they are by birth called Israelites, God does not reckon all of them to be of Israel. Remember, they were not known as overcomers and even God called them a rebellious people.
The important thing to note here is that not everyone who claims to be Israel is Israel. Some are merely “according to the flesh.” And verse 8 shows we have correctly interpreted what Paul has said. Here he is trying to explain what he just said. “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9:3,6,7,8. Today, any person, Jew or Gentile, is part of this one body, this “spiritual” nation of Israel, through faith in Jesus Christ.
This is not a hard concept to understand when you recall that we refer to the IC as a visible church, but the HC as the true body of Christ. We say they are according to the flesh, but God's true church is not according to the flesh but rather, according to the spirit.
There are many visible churches but not all of them belong to God's “spiritual” church. Just as there are visible Jews, not all of which are spiritual Jews, like Paul explains. “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.” Romans 2:28,29.
No Respecter of Persons
There is nothing about being born Jewish that guarantees ones acceptance with God. “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34,35.
The important thing to note here is that everyone will be called and saved through faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior. There is no other salvation available to anyone, anywhere. Even the Israelite after the flesh must be reborn an Israelite after the Spirit.
The New Covenant
We claim the New Covenant as ours. But the truth is that the New Covenant was made with the houses of Israel and Judah. “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8. It stands to reason that anyone not born Israelite or Jewish could not partake of that covenant. Yet, we know that we can claim it as ours, too. So there must be some other explanation--and there is.
Can We Claim The New Covenant As Ours
In Ephesians 2 we find Paul explaining how Christ tore down the wall of separation that kept the Gentiles far away from the covenant of promise. Paul explains that in Christ we are all one. Notice his words. “... who hath made both one, ... to make in himself of twain one new man, ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body.” He summarizes by saying, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Did you catch that? “Fellowcitizens.”
But neither we nor the Gentiles were physically reborn as Israelites, so it must be a “spiritual” rebirth. So then, it would not be improper for us to refer to these as “Spiritual Israel” to distinguish them from “Israel after the flesh” even though this term does not appear in scripture. We say that a person who has been reborn walks not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Would it be incorrect to refer to them as “Spiritual Humans” to distinguish them from “Humans after the flesh?” Then why not Israel?
Jesus Reigns on David's Throne
God promised that a king would sit on David's throne forever. We find in Luke that this promise to Israel is also fulfilled in Jesus. Luke 1:31 “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”
Barren Women Bears Children of Promise
In this passage in Galatians 4, Paul is quoting Isaiah. I believe Paul is saying that there will be more children of the promise from “Gentiles” than from Israel after the flesh. “For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.” Have we been misinterpreting the verse, “all Israel shall be saved?” It would appear so.
Paul continues, saying, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.” The children of the promise are by faith, not works or any other thing that man can do. Paul states in clear words that we become children of promise by being born after the spirit and not after the flesh. He uses the example of the persecution of Cain toward Able, and Jacob toward Esau, to explain the persecution of Israel after the flesh toward Israel after the spirit. “But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”
Well, this concludes my treatise on this subject, for now. There is much more but I am running out of time and my wife is running out of patience.
(Note. My original study has been augmented with scriptural references found in a booklet entitled, “Spiritual Israel” which can be found at www.amazingfacts.org.)
All the examples you have cited have definite scriptural statements to demonstrate them: "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;" etc.
However, the expressions "true Israel" and "spiritual Israel" are terms which are foreign to scripture!
Nor is Israel to be replaced by anything! As a nation, they will last forever! See Jer.31:35-37. That was not so with sacrificial lambs, or the earthly tabernacle. But as a nation, Israel is to observe the annual passver as a memorial FOREVER! (Ex.12)
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodford: Hi Jeff,
All the examples you have cited have definite scriptural statements to demonstrate them: "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;" etc.
However, the expressions "true Israel" and "spiritual Israel" are terms which are foreign to scripture!
Yes, but there are many others, such as hellfire and purgatory, which are foreign to scripture as well. Is it unlawful to use new terminology to describe them?
quote: Nor is Israel to be replaced by anything! As a nation, they will last forever! See Jer.31:35-37. That was not so with sacrificial lambs, or the earthly tabernacle. But as a nation, Israel is to observe the annual passver as a memorial FOREVER! (Ex.12)
You are correct! However, Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb and He will last forever. And Jesus is our High Priest in a Heavenly Tabernacle, made without hands, that will last forever. And, Yes, Israel will last forever and will observe the passover (Jesus' sacrifice) as a memorial forever. But flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom so Israel after the flesh is not referred to here. But everyone that is born again, of God, will inherit the kingdom. They, as Spiritual Israel will fulfill everything promised to Israel in scripture. As Revelation tells us, the overcomers (Jacob's new name, Israel, meant "overcomer") will inherit the kingdom.
Because God changed Jacob's name to Israel when he overcame, I am saying that God will give us new names too, if we overcome, and that new name would be Israel. Just as Jacob was an Old Covenant type, those who overcome and inherit heaven are the anti-type. There is a lot of these shadow/true, type/antitype examples in the Old and New Testament. Also, that explains how Israel lives on forever. Fleshly Israel was in bondage under the Old Covenant, but Spiritual Israel is free in the New Covenant. See Romans 8 for a discussion of after the flesh and in the spirit.
BTW, I posted my "proof" in the first post in this topic. I updated it. Please read it carefully.
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Hi Jeff, I've read your article and the following are my comments:
You wrote:"...what about Israel as a nation? Did they foreshadow a "Spiritual Israel" that would believe the promises of God and become the receipients of all things promised to literal Israel on condition of obedience?"
Jeff, One of many promises made to Israel was a specific piece of real estate! They have never yet possessed it in it's entirety. Do you really think that all the land from the mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates river is going to be possessed by new covenant believers?? (See Deut.11:24; Josh.1:4) Those who teach that the church is Israel are all for claiming the BLESSINGS promised to the nation of Israel but seem to conveniently ignore the promises of CURSES made to the same nation! Jeff what about the curses of Deut.27 and 28? If you are an Israelite, these are the promises that go with being an Israelite!
You also wrote:"the New Covenant was also made with Israel, and Judah. God never made this promise to Gentiles."
I think you are referring to the promise of Jer.31:31 where God promised to make the new covenant with Israel and Judah.God hasd kept His Word and the 7 fold promise of the new covenant HAS BEEN MADE with people of Israel and Judah. You say that God never made this promise to Gentiles, but you seem to forget that He promised to Abraham that in him (Abraham) would ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED! God did NOT tell Abraham that all nations of the earth would be made into ONE NATION (Israel), but rather that ALL NATIONS would be blessed in him. (Gen.12:3) Then, in the new covenant scriptures, Paul clearly teaches that Gentiles were also brought into the blessings of the new covenant. These things were written to a Gentile Church. (See II Cor.chapters 3-7) In all of that, there is just a single reference to "Israel" and it is national Israel in the flesh! Not once does Paul indicate in any imaginable way that Gentile believers, on new covenant ground are to be regarded as "Israel", "the true Israel" or "spiritual Israel"!
You wrote:"The important thing to consider here is that God considers us his children not by physical birth but by spiritual birth. In fact, the physical birth has no merit with God for he is not racist."
Jeff, the fact that the new birth is a spiritual birth is not at all in dispute here! The fact that all who have experienced the new birth are "Israelites" is the dispute and John 3 teaches nothing of the kind! Certainly God is no respecter of persons and no, He is not a racist! But He IS the one who created NATIONS! He is the one who sets the boundaries of their habitations! He IS the one who has made them all of one blood to dwell on the face of the earth! (See ACTS 17:26)
You wrote:"After his resurrection they asked him, Acts 1:6 “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” The important point to consider here is that as men we look at the things which can be seen. But God sees that which cannot be seen by mere men. We need our sight aided by the Holy Spirit to see as God sees. Could it be that today sincere people are still thinking that these prophecies will be fulfilled in a literal nation of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem?
Jeff, as far as "the rebuilding of a temple at Jerusalem", God no longer dwells in temples made with hands and will never again need a "temple building". However, we would do well to consider the Lord Jesus answer (verse 7) to the disciples' question in Acts 1:6. He did NOT say that the kingdom would NOT be restored to Israel! He just told them that it was not for them to know the times and the seasons!
You asked, "Do you really think that all the land from the mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates river is going to be possessed by new covenant believers?"
No, I believe that they will first inhabit heaven. Have you not read, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
You also wrote a very long paragraph in response. I am going to break it apart to address each point.
You wrote, "I think you are referring to the promise of Jer.31:31 where God promised to make the new covenant with Israel and Judah."
Yes, Jer 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8, where Paul is explaining Jer 31:31 in the light of Jesus Christ as the mediator of a better covenant.
You continued, "God hasd kept His Word and the 7 fold promise of the new covenant HAS BEEN MADE with people of Israel and Judah."
I am not sure what you mean by this statement. Where is the evidence that it has been fulfilled in Israel after the flesh? Sure, Paul is an example of a fleshly Israelite that experience the new birth. The old Paul naturally born of the stock of Israel died and a new Spiritual man was born into Christ. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." So, what do you mean?
You continued, "You say that God never made this promise to Gentiles,..."
Yes, the scripture does not say anywhere that the New Covenant was made with Gentiles. The word Gentile is generally used to describe any non-Jewish person. It symbolizes those who do not worship the true God. Literally, the word Hellenes means Greek. While Gentiles did and do come to faith in Christ they do not remain Gentiles but could properly still be referred to as Gentiles to distinguish them from the natural born Jews.
You continue, "but you seem to forget that He promised to Abraham that in him (Abraham) would ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED! God did NOT tell Abraham that all nations of the earth would be made into ONE NATION (Israel), but rather that ALL NATIONS would be blessed in him. (Gen.12:3)"
Yes, I can follow your reasoning here but perhaps you are misunderstand the blessing ALL NATIONS received. Abraham received the promise by faith in Jesus, not works of the law. He received Jesus as his personal Savior. God made a promise to him. Because of this promise, anyone of any nation may become the seed of Abraham (which later became Israel) by faith in Jesus. What blessing were you referring to?
You continued, ”Then, in the new covenant scriptures, Paul clearly teaches that Gentiles were also brought into the blessings of the new covenant. These things were written to a Gentile Church. (See II Cor.chapters 3-7) In all of that, there is just a single reference to "Israel" and it is national Israel in the flesh! Not once does Paul indicate in any imaginable way that Gentile believers, on new covenant ground are to be regarded as "Israel", "the true Israel" or "spiritual Israel"! “
You are right in that Paul doesn't use the term Spiritual Israel that I used. But Paul does say they were excluded and explains in great detail how Christ tore down the wall of separation that kept the Gentiles far away from the covenant of promise. Paul explains that in Christ we are all one. Notice his words. “... who hath made both one, ... to make in himself of twain one new man, ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body.” He summarizes by saying, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.”
How do you see Paul applying these terms?
who hath made both one
to make in himself of twain one new man
that he might reconcile both unto God in one body
What would that one body be? Genraelite? Or some other mixture of Gentile and Israelite? How about Gentile? Did they all become Gentiles? No, they must all become either Jew or Israel to have part in the New Covenant. The Gentiles became fellowcitizens with Israel after Jesus tore down the wall making it impossible for Gentiles to partake of the convenant of promise. How did Jesus tear down the wall of separation? What was the wall? Was it a physical wall Paul was talking about? No, the wall was the mindset that only natural born Israelites could be citizens. Jews thought that by the promise they were heirs. Jesus torn down their hopes and established hope for everyone who believes by faith. The same way as Abraham.
If you were born Mexican and moved to America and by naturalization became a fellow citizen of America, would you still be Mexican? No, but because of your hispanic birth some might still call you a Mexican. But in reality you are American. Now apply this to Gentiles becoming fellow citizens with Israel. Do they not become Israelites? Remember Paul said Jesus made the two, one man. Which one did they become?
Then you stated, "Jeff, as far as "the rebuilding of a temple at Jerusalem", God no longer dwells in temples made with hands and will never again need a "temple building". However, we would do well to consider the Lord Jesus answer (verse 7) to the disciples' question in Acts 1:6. He did NOT say that the kingdom would NOT be restored to Israel! He just told them that it was not for them to know the times and the seasons!"
This is all true, but... how do you see the Lord's timing? Do you see Israel after the flesh having their kingdom restored? And when? Before Christ comes, or after? And, if you answer, YES, then on their fulfillment of what promise made to them by God on condition of their strict obedience? "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight."
Natural Israel, or Israel after the flesh, will never live up to the conditions of the Old Covenant and therefore will never have the promises of God fulfilled to them because of their good works. But God did make the promise. So He will have an Israel that walks, not after the flesh, but after the spirit--a "Spiritual" Israel--to which the promises will be fulfilled.
In my mind, if you disagree with this then you are making the same assumption that Israel made. They thought that being the physical descendant of Abraham guaranteed them the promise. Jesus told them otherwise when He said, "If you were Abraham's children, then you would do the works of Abraham." What were the works of Abraham? Did Abraham earn righteousness? No, but he believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. He believed and obeyed. Israel after the flesh are not Abraham's seed because they do not believe. Who does believe? Are they not then Abraham's seed?
Could this be the Israel that God knew would receive the fulfillment of His promise? It can't be those that don't believe. In the example of natural Israel, the unbelievers all perished in the wilderness. It was the "new borns" that believed and entered the promised land. So it is today. Those who are born again will enter into the promised land. Not Canaan, for that is the type, but Heaven, for that is the anti-type. Canaan is the shadow of the true. Heaven is the true.
Hopefully we are moving closer together by discussing this.
I have been giving this a lot of thought and considering what it is that is preventing us from coming into unity on this subject. I believe it is as simple as the fact that I keep using the term "Spiritual Israel." Well, giving this further consideration I don't believe that it would be any of my funeral if I stopped using that term. I say this because my true contention all along is that just because a person says they are "Israel" does not mean God sees them as Israel. I am basing this on these following scriptures.
quote:Not all Jews are Jews
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Not all Israelites are Israelites
Romans 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I have been using the terms "after the flesh" and "spiritual" to denote which group I was speaking about--flesh meaning those we consider natural born Israelites, and spiritual meaning those reborn into the familiy of God through faith in Jesus. So in consideration of that observation, let me try to wrap up my argument. I will be using another example of the principal that under the Old Covenant we see the typical, and shadow, of the true, while under the New Covenant we see the fulfillment, the anti-typical, and the true.
Shadow in the Old Covenant
A stranger, to the nation of Israel, was not allowed to eat of the passover.
quote:Exodus 12:43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
But if a stranger were to exercise faith in God and desire to be joined to Israel, then, if they met certain conditions that stranger would no longer be a stranger, for no stanger can eat, but would be reckoned as if he were an Israelite and thus could eat of the passover.
quote:Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
I am certain this law is what caused all the commotion in the early church when the certain Jews insisted that the Gentiles be circumcised in the flesh even though Paul explained that they were circumcised in the heart through faith in Jesus. This led to Paul's argument that not all Israel is Israel, and not every Jew is a Jew. They may claim to be Israel or Jewish but if they have not been circumcised in the heart then they did not make that leap of faith from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. And so they get left behind and actually, they become strangers to the new covenant of promise while still living under the old.
Notice that one law applies to a "homeborn" Israelite and a stranger. No difference! (BTW, I never knew the word "homeborn" was in scripture! But that is a good way to distinguish between a natural Israelite and a naturalized Israelite.)
quote:Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Notice also that even the stranger that is in our home is to comply with the seventh-day sabbath.
quote:Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
(I have always been puzzled why the spouse is not mentioned in the Sabbath commandment. I would like to study that some day. It may turn up to be more evidence in the subjection argument regarding a husband and wife.)
Realization in The New Covenant
The following verses are those I have been using to demonstrate the real in the NT that cast the shadow in the OT. They describes how this law was 'torn down' by faith in Christ allowing 'strangers' to become 'fellowcitizens' with Israel. No more exclusive club!
quote:Ephesians 2 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
This whole passage is significant but I quoted just these for emphasis.
Well, I am saving this now without really reviewing it, so I reserve the right to revise it later.
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I wanted to share this which I found today. This is Ephesians 2 from the New Living Translation. I mostly use the KJV because it is free. But after reading this it may be time for me to buy rights to other translations (for my software).
quote: Oneness and Peace in Christ 11Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders by birth. You were called "the uncircumcised ones" by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from God's people, Israel, and you did not know the promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13But now you belong to Christ Jesus. Though you once were far away from God, now you have been brought near to him because of the blood of Christ.
14For Christ himself has made peace between us Jews and you Gentiles by making us all one people. He has broken down the wall of hostility that used to separate us. 15By his death he ended the whole system of Jewish law that excluded the Gentiles. His purpose was to make peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new person from the two groups. 16Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death, and our hostility toward each other was put to death. 17He has brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and to us Jews who were near. 18Now all of us, both Jews and Gentiles, may come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.
You wrote"I have been giving this a lot of thought and considering what it is that is preventing us from coming into unity on this subject. I believe it is as simple as the fact that I keep using the term "Spiritual Israel." Well, giving this further consideration I don't believe that it would be any of my funeral if I stopped using that term. I say this because my true contention all along is that just because a person says they are "Israel" does not mean God sees them as Israel. I am basing this on these following scriptures."
Now, I think we are making some progress!
If you would use scriptural terms that the Holy Spirit has applied to regenerate Jews and Gentiles, I would be in full agreement! When a Jew gets saved and when a Gentile gets saved, both become something that they were not before: i.e.saints, believers, disciples, Christians, brethren in Christ, members of the household of God, living stones, holy and royal priests etc. But the Jew does not cease to be a Jew and the Gentile does not cease to be a Gentile. The Jew who was circumcised in the flesh becomes a Jew who is circumcised in heart. A Gentile, uncircumcised in the flesh, becomes a Gentile who is circumcised in heart. But he does not become an Israelite.
Would you have any difficulty agreeing with anything above?
What you say is very reasonable from a human understanding. But when I read the scriptures, I have quoted earlier, I see something else that may be difficult to understand and seems to go against our reasoning. But there are many things I don't understand.
Maybe it is difficult to understand how a Gentile could become an Israelite. Maybe you view that as an impossibility. But consider these human examples.
Adoption: The adopted child takes the adoptive parents' name. We are adopted into the family of God. I may have been born a Logan, but if I am adopted by the Jones' then I become a Jones, do I not? Some may still consider me to be a Logan, but legally, I am a Jones and have a right to take that name and to represent myself as a Jones.
quote:Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Marriage: The wife (usually) takes the husband's name. We are married to Christ. My wife was born a ReDavid. But when she married a Logan, she elected to become a Logan, by name. Now she is legally able to use the Logan name. We still remember her parentage, but today she is considered a Logan and no more a ReDavid.
quote:Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Citizenship: A person takes on the nationality of the nation of which s/he is a citizen. And this can be a sensitive subject. Usually, people are proud to be American. Even though they or their parents migrated from another country, they are now Americans. Either through birth or naturalization. We would offend them to call them anything other than American. Even if they were born of another nationality. In some cases, it can be down right derogatory to call a native born American by some other nationality simply because they still carry distinctive characteristics of their native country.
quote:Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
Israelites Which Are Not Israelites And, especially these two verses which seem to suggest that those we call Israel are not necessarily Israel...
quote:Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Jews Which Are Not Jews ...and those we think of as Jews are not necessarily Jews.
quote:Romans 2:28,29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;
I am sorry to be so stubborn, but maybe if you explain how to interpret these verses in another way than I have done, it will begin to dawn on me what you are seeing.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the points you have made. Let's look at each one:
Re Adoption, you wrote: "The adopted child takes the adoptive parents' name. We are adopted into the family of God. I may have been born a Logan, but if I am adopted by the Jones' then I become a Jones, do I not? Some may still consider me to be a Logan, but legally, I am a Jones and have a right to take that name and to represent myself as a Jones.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
I agree with you! Naturally, I was not a Christian. But because I was adopted, I now bear the name "Christian", not Israelite.
Re Marriage you wrote: "The wife (usually) takes the husband's name. We are married to Christ. My wife was born a ReDavid. But when she married a Logan, she elected to become a Logan, by name. Now she is legally able to use the Logan name. We still remember her parentage, but today she is considered a Logan and no more a ReDavid.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you here as well! In the natural realm, one can only become a member of a family in one of three ways:(1) by birth, (2)by adoption and (3)by marriage. IF you are born into a family, you cannot be adopted or married in to the family. If you are adopted, you cannot be born or married into the family. And if you are married into the family, you cannot be born or adopted into it. But the family of God is different! EVERYONE who is a member of this family is born into it (John 3), adopted into it(Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5 and Ephesians 1:5),and espoused and married into it (II Corinthians 11:2; Rev.19) So I am a CHRISTIAN by (new) birth, by adoption, and by espousal/marriage. I am not an Israelite by birth, adoption, or espousal/marriage!
Citizenship: A person takes on the nationality of the nation of which s/he is a citizen. And this can be a sensitive subject. Usually, people are proud to be American. Even though they or their parents migrated from another country, they are now Americans. Either through birth or naturalization. We would offend them to call them anything other than American. Even if they were born of another nationality. In some cases, it can be down right derogatory to call a native born American by some other nationality simply because they still carry distinctive characteristics of their native country.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
Jeff, I totally agree with you here as well! Those who are made fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God are taught by scripture that their "conversation", (literally "politics" or "citizenship" is IN HEAVEN, NOT in Israel! (Phil.3:20)
Then you wrote:"Israelites Which Are Not Israelites And, especially these two verses which seem to suggest that those we call Israel are not necessarily Israel...
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jews Which Are Not Jews ...and those we think of as Jews are not necessarily Jews.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 2:28,29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"
It is very true that God intended and desired that all physical, national, Israelites in the flesh would also become a nation of priests, rightly related to God by the Spirit and by the circumcision of the heart. So, yes, it is true that those who are simply Israelites after the flesh are NOT ISRAEITES in the full measure that God desires and intends for them. But these statements do NOT indicate at all that Gentiles who are rightly related to God through faith in Christ become JEWS OR ISRAELITES!
I am sorry to be so stubborn, but maybe if you explain how to interpret these verses in another way than I have done, it will begin to dawn on me what you are seeing.
Jeff, I hope you can begin to see that scripture clearly teaches that a dramatic change of relationship takes place for Jews and Gentiles when they come to Christ. yes, they now have much in common that they did not have in common before. Both are Christians, they are brothers, they are in Christ, they are brought nigh by the blood of Christ, they are forgiven, they have eternal life, they are members of the same family etc etc. But NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE are we ever taught that Gentiles become Israelites at conversion!
Would you agree with this? It is only the idea that Gentile believers become Israelites that I cannot accept because such is never ever taught in scripture.
I am sitting at home during the blizzard of 2005 so I thought I would take a few minutes to reply to your last post.
My answer is no, I cannot agree with your idea. As convinced as you are that the Bible does not teach this, I am that it does. And probably more so. I think I have presented much reasonable evidence from scripture that is sufficient for anyone who wishes to believe. The fact that you don't see it does not in any way suggest that the Bible doesn't teach it.
Jesus marveled that Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, did not comprehend the truth about being born again. Yet, there was no occurrences of the phrase "born again" in the Old Testament. Jesus said that the scriptures taught it. Nicodemus said, No. So truth doesn't always jump out at you. You have to search for it like hidden treasure. I'm not saying you "invent" truth. But truth is not a collection of thoughts and ideas scattered here and there. Truth is one continuous cord that runs through the Bible as a melodious harmony of scripture. It never opposses itself but is always in agreement. The truth that runs through the Bible is our redemption from sin. It is our promise that we can learn to hate sin and love righteousness.
Are you familiar with the writings of Hal Lindsey. He is very much responsible for teaching that literal Israel will be the object of God's promises. In fact, in his books he "predicted" some things that should have already come to past, but didn't. Yet, people continue to buy his books and accept his theories. Do you agree with his writings? Or, do you have your own beliefs. I would like to hear how Israel plays out in your thinking.
There are very many things which we have discussed on this topic on which we both agree. But I think you believe at least two things that I don't. Please correct me if I am wrong about what you believe.
(1) It seems to me that you believe that people who are physical descendants of Jacob but who are not believers in Jesus Christ, (i.e. are not regenerated by the Spirit of God) are not Jews and are not Israel or Israelites.
(2)It seems to me that you believe that Gentiles (i.e. people of other nations who are not physical descendants of Jacob) who are believers in Jesus Christ HAVE BECOME Jews, and HAVE BECOME Israelites.
Re. Nicodemus, Jesus and being "born again"...where and when did Jesus say that the old testament scriptures taught the truth of the new birth as the experience of people under the old covenant? (i.e. that people prior to the Lord Jesus' death at Calvary were born of the spirit? Yes, Ezekiel prophesied of a time in the future when God would give people a "new heart".(Ezekiel 36:26) But as far as I can tell from scripture, no mortal man prior to John 3 knew that such a transformation would take place by way of the NEW BIRTH or by being "born of the Spirit".
If I am wrong, (and that is a very real possibility!) what O.T. scriptures would have taught this truth to careful students of scripture prior to Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in John 3?
You have presented much evidence that God does a work in both Jews and Gentiles (when they believe on the Lord Jesus) so they both become something that they never were before (holy and royal priests, saints, believers, disciples, Christians, members of the household of God, they are made nigh by the blood of Christ, they are accepted in the Beloved, they are forgiven, they have eternal life, they are indwelt by the Spirit of God, they are now in Christ and Christ is in them...etc etc... However, you have utterly failed to present a scrap of evidence that Gentiles, at conversion, become Israelites or Jews.
Re. Hal Lindsey and Israel: Yes, I have read some of Hal's books: "The Late Great Planet Earth" for one. And I agree with you that Hal is way off the mark on many things which he has taught. I think you would also agree that the Roman Catholic church is way off the mark on many things that they teach. BUt I think you would also agree that both R.C.s and Hal Lindsey also believe and teach some things that are scripturally true and genuine.
So when Hal teaches that Israel, as a nation, will never ever cease to exist and that Israel is a distinct group of people that is never ever to be confused with the church (although saved Israelites are certainly part of the church), Hal teaches the truth of scripture. BTW, I believed this before I ever heard of Hal Lindsey. Does that answer your question?
I woke up this morning with a few other thoughts on my mind and scriptures running through my head relative to Israel and the Gentiles. See if they are any help to you:
There are Israelites who are not of God: John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. And there is the Israel of God: Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
There are Gentiles who are not of God: 1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. And there are Gentiles who are of God: 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
There are Israelites who are circumcised in the flesh, but not in heart: Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: And there are Israelites who are circumcised in flesh and in heart: Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
There are Gentiles who are not circumcised in the flesh but are circumcised in heart: Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
There are also Gentiles who are circumcised in the flesh but not in heart!
There are Israelites who are the seed of Abraham but who are not children of God, but are actually of their father the devil!: Psalms 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
There are also Gentiles who were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel who are Abraham's seed because they are in Christ: Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I appreciate your scriptures and the time you have taken.
Your two point summation of what I believe is mostly correct. However, I do not deny that in a secular sense those whose genealogy can be traced back through Jacob to Abraham will continue to be known as Israelites and Jews. What I am saying, and believe Paul is saying, is that God does not view things with secular eyes. But this is the crux of our disagreement.
Regarding the truth of being born again being taught in the Old Testament. Jesus expected that Nicodemus should have known this truth from the only scriptures available to him--the Old Testament. It is implied in His response. "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" What blinded his eyes was his self-righteousness. It was believed that if you were rich then it was a sign of God's favor. Christ taught that man was evil and that nothing good could come from man. He illustrated this truth with the example of the two trees and the water in the well. "A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit." One example of a renewed heart from the OT would be the prayer of David. "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord. And renew a right spirit within me." This theme runs all through the OT.
Again, in the verses you cited Jesus says to the Pharisees, "You are not Abraham's seed because you are of your father the Devil." But, later Jesus admits, "Yes, I know you are Abraham's seed." What idea was Jesus trying to convey to them? First He tells them their father is the Devil and then He concedes that Abraham is their father. Surely, this was Christ's way of distinguishing between the fleshly and the spiritual. He was tearing down their false hope based upon their genealogy.
Well, it seems we are going in circles. It would serve us well to have the input of others. There is great need for a body of believers each applying their talents to discern the false from the true. Perhaps all that is left for us at this point is to demonstrate what is gained or lost by the two views and whether one view or the other is a better fit in the plan of redemption.
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Hi Jeff/Bruce, Re: www.amazingfacts.org I agree with a lot of things in that site but they are wrong on one thing - tithing, quoting Mal 3. And recently on TV, Doug Bachelor is getting a bit weird. Please let me know if you feel same. Re: Physical/spiritual Israelites I'm pondering on Rom 11 - that only one olive tree. Will share my thoughts later...
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Chubbena, One brief look at the "products" page of the site was enough for me! Here is a man more interested in "making merchandise of you" (II Peter 2:3)than he is in ministering as a good steward of the manifold grace of God!(I Peter 4:10,11)!
Perhaps you have judged too quickly. This ministry is self-supporting and their last revival was broadcast by satellite around the entire globe reaching over 100 countries. Maybe 24, one hour sessions. Do you know how much it cost for satellite by the minute?
That was very costly in terms of dollars but the result was over 150,000 baptisms for Christ and untold myriad of others who were too scared to profess their faith for fear of persecution. Think of the seeds that were planted. We may criticize these ministries for "selling" wares but what are we doing to save lives?
Sometimes it is easy to criticize the work of others. I know from personal experience. But you have to ask yourself, what am I doing. Here this man is doing a great work. How can I criticize him? In secular work we sometimes use the expression, the more you do the more mistakes you make. Well, in Christianity the saying should be, the more you do the more you will be criticized. After all, if this man only witnessed to his neighbor then you would have never heard of him.
Just be careful or you may find yourself opposing God. Jesus said, if they are not against us they are with us.
quote:"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Also, remember the counsel you so recently gave to Gary about the ever tightening circle of like believers. Not everyone is going to believe just as we do.
In my remarks above, I had 2 scriptural principles in view: (1) the instructions of the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples, "Freely ye have received, freely give." Matt.10:8 (2) the warnings of the apostle Peter regarding false teachers who through covetousness make merchandise of you. II Ptere 2:3
Whenever I hear of any so called Christian "ministry" selling their wares, especially at highly inflated prices, red flags always go up in my mind!
On the other hand, I know of many who serve the Lord and have known the blessing of God upon their ministries who never mention their own needs, never mention numbers of people who profess faith in Christ, and never charge a dime for anything they do in service for the Lord. They live in view of the fact that if it is God's will, it is His bill! And they do not count "converts" but leave the accounting up to Him who knows the false from the genuine.
BTW, who told you 150,000 people were saved as a result of this "revival"? "Revival" by definition has to do with those who had life to begin with, not with salvation of the lost! And what do you mean by "self-supporting"?? Who of the servants of God are ever called to be "self-supported"? Psalm 123:1,2 certainly does not describe the attitude of "self-supporting servants"!
Does God ever call His new covenant servants to charge for their ministry, or does He lead them to minister without charge?
Does He ever teach His servants to support their ministries on their own resources?
Does He ever teach His servants to advertise to others the visible results of their ministries?
Does the Lord need man's commerce (i.e. charging and paying based on debt and obligation) to finance His work? or Is the Lord capable of financing all of His work by His economy (i.e. giving and receiving based on grace)?
I have read your testimony so I am aware of your beliefs on this topic. And, that is admirable. However, it was the Lord who setup the Jewish economy in which the Levites had no inheritance but relied upon the faithfulness of the tithe to sustain them. This was the Lord's doing long before Paul.
Paul did not attempt to overthrow God's plan but admitted that the Lord had instructed in the law of Moses not to muzzle the ox that worked to plow the fields. Then he asked the question, Did the Lord write this because he was only concerned with the oxen? He answers his own question writing, No, it was written for our sakes. Paul said that those who minister to you in the spiritual have a right to expect that you will minister unto them in the physical. Paul determined that he would work and supply his own way rather than accept the tithes of the church family because he did not want anyone to misrepresent his holy work as being for selfish reasons. But he clearly states that he did have a right to expect support of them. And, he apologized for not accepting the gift of some churches while accepting the gifts of others. Are you familiar with this teaching of Paul as well. I am sure you must be.
I am fully aware of the money raising schemes of many ministries. They promise you that if you give a certain amount then the Lord will bless you with a greater amount. This pastor doesn't presume open the mercies of God in this manner. And, I don't agree with the way even "legitimate" ministries offer gifts in exchange for freewill offerings. But should we condemn the ministries or ourselves for being so selfish that they feel compelled to offer us icing on top of the cross to intice us to give? As if the gift of Christ's blood was not quite enough to open our hearts in freewill giving. What a shame. Because of our stinginess, bingo's came into being, and bazaars, and yardsales, and all sorts of activities that border on merchandising more than offering. Do you agree?
Regarding the term "Revival." Some of this pastor's broadcast are called revivals and some are not but they don't reach out to the "saved" only by any means. His work is always for the lost. He expects the "saved" to work with him and support the ministry.
And, certainly, the Lord does not need our work or our money to finish the work. But that is not God's plan. God's plan for man's salvation clearly includes the human element in all aspects of the work. Everything we own belongs to God and comes from God. He gives to us to try us. "Freely you have received, freely give." Like a parent gives a child money at Christmas and then waits to see what they spend their money on. It not only allows the parent to see the child's heart but reveals the heart to the child as well and gives that child opportunity to share and thus overcome selfishness.
Regarding the 150,000 baptisms: The Lord likens his servants to stewards who are entrusted with vineyards and talents. We can bury those talents or invest them. I believe that the work of the Lord should be handled in a business-like manner where we watch for the maximum ROI. If we are faithful in secular business (the least) then the Lord can trust us with spiritual business (the greater). If we are not aware of which activities produce fruit then how are we going to "run the business" efficiently and maximize our efforts. Do you think the Lord is pleased to see us working hard in his vineyard? Or, do you think he appreciates a disinterested, ho-hum attitude toward his work? I think he wants us to work for him as though we were partners in the "business." Yet, we are to sow beside all waters.
We are all certainly entitled to our own beliefs, convictions, and opinions. But my warning was to refrain from condemning the work of others simply because it doesn't fit our particular ideal.
To be fair with that site, it does offer a free online library for cheapies like me to print out materials. I've been waiting for the reply from that site on tithing - for a long long time. Many articles on that site started me thinking.......and going back to the Bible for answers.
TV ministry is a multi-million dollar industry. It's not like the evangelists are getting airtime for free. I hate to sound like Judas but the money can be used to feed the poor. I hate to sound judgmental but there are wolves in wolf skin in this industry - Robert Tilton, Mick Murdock, Creflo Dollar - just to name a few.
To save lives is God's area - He makes the call, men are just the tools. It's never the number that counts - only 2 out of 600,000 entered Canaan. Benny Hinn boasts a lot more converts.......
NT told believers to give, not tithe. It's right to give ministries who's proclaiming the Gospel, but how? Matt 10:8-14 Jesus taught the disciples how to get support. 1 Cor 9:9 & 1 Tim 5:18 Paul taught the believers how to give - I believe he elaborated what Jesus taught, not introducing some sort of wage structure in the ministry. Certainly not teaching believers to "tithe" to support the church's mortgage, Pastor's monthly salary which in turn goes to his house mortgage and car loan (funny how few pastors learn from Paul) , TV ad expenses.........
I guess I should have directly answered your questions. I will try now. You wrote:
quote:BTW, who told you 150,000 people were saved as a result of this "revival"? "Revival" by definition has to do with those who had life to begin with, not with salvation of the lost! And what do you mean by "self-supporting"?? Who of the servants of God are ever called to be "self-supported"? Psalm 123:1,2 certainly does not describe the attitude of "self-supporting servants"!
I read about the 150,000 baptisms from a newletter published by the same ministry. Of course, we never know the true from the false but we count them all as God's children and rejoice when they make a stand to follow the Lord. And the reporting of the numbers baptised is in keeping with the early church practice.
quote:Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
I've already addressed your question about "revival."
The term "self-supporting" simply means they do not receive funding from any other source other than materials they offer for sell and donations. Therefore, they do not answer to anyone but God.
I believe that we are admonished to be "self-supporting."
quote:1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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