posted
First response: chuckle. second responce: LOL (laugh out loud) After realizing how accurate the adds are, third responce: Sober reflection. Our situation is much worse than i like to think it is.
What a very dreadful state of affairs for churchianity.
posted
Man... Here I had been thinking of putting a product out there for the Christian retail market, but now I know that I gotta buy that book first!
Seriously, I almost did put something out there.. just to have it be an inside joke.
Also Newbe - Jon
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
posted
Isn't anyone going to pray against this? Isn't anyone going to stand up and speak for our Lord?
Where are the Christians that say "Lord Jesus, see how the world mocks your body, the Church; as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so the church should reflect your Light- though many churches have fallen into lukewarmness; we pray with faith in You to stop these things; open the eyes of lukewarm Christians and revive the church, and let us silence the mouth of the devil's children and put an end to this mockery! "May your name be glorified and your will be done here on earth as it is in Heaven" amen and amen"?
I would have thought many would speak out against this; both to the worldly people and their mockeries, and to the churches that act this way and thus disgrace the Name of Jesus, but all I have seen so far is an army of Israel too afraid to stand before Goliath. Where has King David gone? Where is Samson, Moses, Elijah and all the others that stood up for the Christian name?
I urge anyone who reads this to pray for these things, to pray against the evils of this world and to be an example for others (lukewarm Christian and otherwise) in their righteousness and wisdom and faith, for these things cause prayers to be answered. If enough Christians had enough faith, God's glory WOULD be seen by this world and silence many loud mouths!
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
posted
Merchandising the gospel, of course, is nothing new -- Jesus' one "fit of rage" was because of that. Indeed cause for sober reflection.
We should, indeed, pray, and advocate for a pure life. We should also cleanse ourselves of all these "idols" and try to model a life in which the Bible and a kitchen are all that is required to live for Jesus.
Shall we hold an idol burning ceremony in which we burn all our inspirational t-shirts, commentaries, plastic ichthuses... you name it?
posted
I feel the need for Christians to rid themselves of anything blasphemous; "if even someone's eye or hand causes them to sin, they must throw it away".
Also, Christian t-shirts, commentaries etc. should be made, but to glorify God and not for profits. Christian books should indeed be written and Christian films made but those who do these things for profits are selfish and not Christians, but disgrace Christ's Name, bringing mockery to it. Priests that pray loudly but are greedy for money rather than eager to glorify God are no different from the pharisees that crucified Jesus!
Christians must do what they can for our Lord but must not let their hearts and minds be distracted from this by worldly desires, otherwise the work they do will be for themselves and not for God, and it will mean nothing; it will become empty like the teachings of pharisees, not fruitful like the Words of Jesus.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Could you please explain your first post in this thread in a pointed way? I mean name names, describe who you are talking about. I'm sorry for my ignorance, but your verbosity has me somewhat confused. Was your initial statement against my post... or was it against the satire of the "adverts"?
Jon
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
I think you might be missing the sarcastic humor of those links. If we can't laugh at ourselves, then we must think our own dung doesn't stink. There is nothing blasphamous about those parodies. There's an element of truth to them!
The scene where Jesus threw out the moneychangers is different in this respect: animal sacrifices we a requirement of the law. People had to sacrifice to obey God. The law allowed for money conversion for sacrifices but it was the religious leaders who turned the house of God into a den of theives by ripping off the people of God. A totally different situation.
And folks, since when did inspirational t-shirs or christian oriented posters, paintings or coffee cups become idols? I'm thankful for those who create encouraging images that remind us of what's important. And what's wrong with someone earning an income from it? Isn't the laborer worthy of their wages? What's the sin? Shouldn't we be grateful that there's a market for such items and people want them? On the other hand, if you don't like it...don't buy it! But we shouldn't force our opinions or convictions on others. If we read the Old Testament we'll find that God is big on visual reminders...(Deut. 6:6-9) on our hands, between our eyes, on the posts of our house and gates...)
As far as doing something for profit, is the guy who fixes cars for a wage, more Christ-like than the person who manufactures a "Come Unto Me..." T-shirt for a wage? Since T-shirts are an item of choice and not a requirement of obedience, what's the problem?
How about the paramessage that the world gets? I think there is a lot of disdain among non-believers for this sort of thing. If I'm to be mocked, I'd like it to be for obeying the Lord in some meaningful way.
"Jesus junk" is often very disrespectful of our Lord. Not abusing the Lord's name is on the list of 10 commandments, right in there with murder.
No, I'm not grateful there is a market for it. The market is believers who think money is theirs to throw away! With 3.2 billion people without a single church among them, I just don't think that's God's desired use of resources... It's not my money to throw away... It's God's money, and I'm a steward... Cheap garbage pens that say, "Jesus loves you" but don't actually write... shirts that say, "This Blood's for You", imitating a beer commercial... So much of it is second rate and mediocre... don't get me started on so-called Christian romance novels!...
Call me an ingrate, but no, I'm not thankful...
There is a biblical standard for legitimate work, and I don't think this would qualify.
But that's just me. I have plenty of sarcastic humor, but the truth of these cartoons makes me heartsick.
posted
To FastDaddy and anyone else who wants to read:
No, I wasn't mocking your post. I wasn’t writing against it then and I’m not now. What I mean is: the original post by Faith in 2005 that showed how the world views us was posted *years* ago, but I didn't see *any* messages asking anyone to pray against it; that isn’t right. So I posted the first message (after about two years) requesting prayer against this. Christians should have prayed against this as soon as possible, and then I doubt if the site would even be here today!
I acknowledge that it’s possible some could have read the post and prayed by themselves without actually replying on this site, but if that’s true and enough people did this then when I clicked on the links I would have gotten a message saying that the site was no longer existent. I’m disappointed in everyone who saw the message and was too distracted by other things to pray against it, that’s all.
My first message is also an accusation against so-called "Christians" who only do things for profit and not for God, (just like the adverts say) giving the non-believers a chance to make fun of them, thus “disgracing the Name of Jesus”- in other words, lukewarm Christians and the “Pharisees of today”. If more of these “Christians” started to do things for God and not for profits we might actually see more of the people that laugh at us change and turn to God; that was what I meant- and I stand by this statement. I also stand by my request for others to pray against lukewarmness and the mockeries of the world, as well as pray for Jesus’ Name to be glorified. The mockery is becoming so terrible that I’m amazed I haven’t seen a single church pray against it!
Not just the adds shown to us by Faith, but the many other advertisements Satan spews up via worldly people; take V for Vendetta, for instance, and the many other movies that portray Christians as twisted, wretched psychopaths, (there are very many things that portray the said stereotype all around us), or look at the “wonderful discoveries that prove Jesus could never have existed” seen on various websites and on the News, or the constant putrid things fed to students in schools about “gay rights” etc., and everything else that is designed to stamp down us Christians for the simple fact that we love Jesus.
Long story short, I’m basically expressing disappointment with lukewarm Christians who couldn’t care less about this so long as they get paid, and am asking anyone who cares to pray against the said advertisements and other things like these, and while we’re at it we may as well pray for the various other corruptions Satan cursed the world with!
Relic.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Thank you for the clarification. Explaining it in simple terms like this helps a lot! I have to agree with you on both "lukewarm" Christians and those who outright lie in an attempt to deceive others into believing that Christians are delusional....... We need to pray for one and against the other. (though the against thing is.... well, is there a scriptural basis for praying AGAINST something or someone?") However. Sites like the one that the links are to, are not designed for "the world". In fact, I would guess that very few non-Christians would even find a site like that. I liken that site to all other things "Christian". Bookstores, websites, radio stations, magazines, comedians, magicians, etc..., etc..., etc..... As much as some people would like to call these things "outreach ministries", they have nearly no appeal to those outside of the religious community. How many non-religious people, that you know, listen to Christian Radio, or watch religious broadcasting on TV, or would go see a Christian magician? I bet if you would ask about it... they would laugh at you. This site is aimed at the religious audience and is attempting to use humor and, yes, sarcasm, to point out some very serious weeds in the garden. Now... I am still pondering the use of sarcasm in a public forum (like this website)as a desirable means to an end. In private, semi-private, or community conversations, I think the use of sarcasm can be humorous and beneficial. And heaven knows that British comedy, which is chock full of sarcasm, is by far superior to any other form of comedy on the planet! But, to just put it out there for EvERYONE to see and laugh at.... well, that may be different. On a side note... I do not call myself a "Christian" anymore because of the charlatans that have hijacked the name. I refer to myself and fellow devotees as "Believers". Sorry to bore you with a rant, but please feel free to comment.
Jon
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
The cartoons point out the inane and destructive nature of "Jesus Junk". There is a reason for us to both laugh and cry over them. The very fact that these can be written is what should make us heartsick. My wife was a manager of a Christian bilkstore (oops, I mean book) for a time, and you're right. The massive amounts of low quality junk is unbelievable. Everything from pens to books to screwdrivers with little crosses on them.... all of the lowest quality possible and yours for just three easy payments of $19.99. A counter point to this, is, that, while attending a Christian Booksellers Assoc. convention, we ran into an author, an artist, and a movie producer. Each of these individuals seemed to be Believers, and were truly trying to edify others with their work. For these three, their work was for Him, and of the highest quality in workmanship. The lack of concern for profit was also apparent in the way they presented their work to prospective customers. While others would talk of the "next big hit" or profitability, these people were sharing insight and encouragement to people who stopped to talk to them. I had a revelation there on the sales floor. God told me not to put motives on things that other people do. We just simply don't know why some things are done or created. Some things I find are uplifting and inspirational, while others do nothing but cheapen the world's estimation of Him. Work as unto the Lord......
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
posted
Laurie Ann, FastDaddy; (and anyone else who's interested);
The answer is yes; there are in fact many examples of strong Christians in the Bible who prayed *against* sin and the people that comitted these sins; Jeremiah, for instance, and the prayers and hymns of King David in Psalms... There are also verses that quote things like "God is against the wicked".
The fact is that many worldly people are -whether we accept it or not- direct in their mockery of Christ and of Christians, and you simply can't reason with them. And there are -whether we would have it or not- a very many sites made for the sole purpouse of undermining God's Name. In fact, even as I write this post there are not only mockeries, but Christians being imprisoned, tortured and killed- in China, Egypt and Indonesia, for example, while at the same time movies are being released about how the "evil, tyranic Christians serving their evil, tyranic God persecute the innocent by enforcing upon them their ways" etc. etc.
These problems are happening *now*, and getting worse; these people are against us, therefore, they are (until/unless they repent) our enemies, and we must -like the prophets of long ago- pray against them and what they do, perhaps not with hatred, but for the sake of the many people that will be hurt otherwise, and for our own self defence. There is of course a time for everything, as the Bible says, and there is a time to forgive, to teach and to correct, but I'm referring to those who refuse to listen to correction. God is Love *and* Justice, so we should -as Christians- also be like this. After all, when such things are being done, there is no time for gentle reasoning; we're at war, in a way, like Israel, or a better example; David versus Goliath.
I doubt whether the said adds were sarcastic, but -assuming they *are* sarcastic- would non-Christians view them in a sarcastic way? The answer is no- of course not, because they would look at the various lukewarm Christians who do things for their own benefit and make so much money from it! Then what do you think their reaction would be? Therefore, whether the intentions of those who made the adds were sarcastic or not (though I seriously doubt they were) the message that the viewers of the adds recieve is, in fact, *damaging* to us and to them. I believe the adds to be partly for a Christian audience to mock them, but moreover I think the adds were made with malicious intent; trying to encourage people to view Christianity in an unreasonable and foolish way, as many do.
As for Christian products and other things having no appeal to those outside the religious community, I wouldn't say this is a good thing. The reason is quite simple; Satan's task is to try and get people to sin enough so that God has no choice but to punish them (being just) and ultimately, send them to hell. It's not a pretty thing to say, but it's true.
Our duty as Christians is pretty much the opposite; however, if worldly people are uninterested in Christian things, then where is the Light to lead them away from Satan's sinister intentions? What Christians need to do is to write books and make movies or other forms of communication in any way that they can, and (with the problems going on in the world) use strong and direct language, kind of like how I'm speaking now, being careful to remember to have faith in God in all they do. While movies like (eg. V for Vendetta) are being made, where are the Christians that are standing up for themselves and for the Lord? Christians should be openly accusing of anything and everything blasphemous, not pretending it's not there, or weakly replying "Jesus loves you" to the laughter of the blasphemer- that's what I mean when I refer to a whole army of Israel cowering before Goliath, and ask as to where our King David has gone.
However, to conclude all this I'd like to add that although Christians must face Goliath all alone with nothing but a sling and stone, "God does not let the prayers of the righteous go unheard". Ultimately, God is in control of all things, and can strike Goliath down with a word; all we need do is remain faithful to Him; all we need do is ask.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
posted
I'll just go with a quote from what Relic wrote in the last post above, to demonstrate the nature of the flesh in what is conveyed by such thoughts:
"These problems are happening *now*, and getting worse; these people are against us, therefore, they are (until/unless they repent) our enemies, and we must -like the prophets of long ago- pray against them and what they do, perhaps not with hatred, but for the sake of the many people that will be hurt otherwise, and for our own self defence."
When it comes to the battle itsef, we are told that:
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."
The "pehaps not with hatred" as it is quoted from Relic above, exposes the carnal positioning of good intentions. Hatred against the law of sin and death, but love for the sinner, is the order of God's plan of salvation for the Church to execute until the Lord's return and through the millenium of His reign on earth, before final judgement.
The "perhaps" we need dear Relic, is to consider the word "punish", in the way that Paul states it in the quoted passage from Corinthinans, as the clarification to what you say.
"The judgement that begins with us the Church", spoken of by Peter, might be where you get confused between where this "punish" fits with the love of the Father Who scourges and uses the rod to discipline those whom He loves, on the one side,
and the natural reflexes of the religious flesh, that seeks to please its own version of "a" God, (That would be the good intentions that pave the way to hell) where we have no relations nor functions, other than to resist Satan while we love and bless into redemption, each and all that we each come in contact with. If and when God calls one of us to rebuke as you speak of, then the Lord sees to it that His nature is not compromised with the nature of wrath and that the love for the enemy is what drives the rebuke.
Such is the power we have been given by the way of the cross, as instituted for eternity by Jesus with His sufferings, followed by His resurrection and exultation at the right hand of the Father, sending the Spirit so that God's witness can get carried on through time by the examples of the saints's obediance who stood against death their whole life after conversion, acting from within the fulness of grace and truth, such as how and what the deacon Stephen did, and like most apostles did, as well as many many saints throughout history who go on bearing death as Paul describes, so that our going through the labour pains may reach all the way, until Christ gets to be formed in others, going on and on in spite of all human institutional shortcomings of history.
The victory of God's testimony came through the ages of time, by the sufferings and the cruel and violent deaths endured until death by God's children, while standing in the gap caused by the remaining curse upon humanity, between God and humans who are trapped in the nature that goes on against and/or apart from God and His people, existing independently from God's calling in their life.
The victory I describe is how God's name gets to be and goes on being sanctified until the return of Jesus, as He seeks to be worshipped, namely, in the spirit and in truth of offering our bodies into a living sacrifice, pleasing unto Him..
Defensive lines of thoughts that seek to return to the prophets of old Israel, are rooted in the context of the flesh, born in the world and which do not lead with the Person of Jesus-Christ, nor with the Church nor with the bible. Such line of thoughts is how God's spontanious version of His Church, as seen in the Acts, came to disolve into the pathway of Christian wars, inquisitions and crusades of history.
We are told to love our ennemies and that it is by many tribulations that we enter in the Kingdom of God. We are promised persecutions, trials, conflicts from within and struggles from without. We are told by Jesus Hmself that "My Kingdom is not of this world", and the apostles Peter confirms this by saying that we are strangers and foreigners on the earth. We are told that we too, once were children of wrath.
Therefore, only God's recovery road of His spontanious version of the Chrurch can ever stand up against the gates of hell. This is the one reason why I love the House Church! In my own house, God is only limited by His own plan of discipline and of destiny, opening the way for His full recovery of the Chuch's witnedd of His presence into our midst.
Such is how comes the call to arms from God to His servants on earth "NOW", as you point out so well Relic. Remember that this "now" has gone on since Adam and Eve and ends in the last Adam. The recovery and the victory are with the Life-giving Spirit, Whom the last Adam became, is "NOW" and will be for ever and ever "Now"...
...Amen to Your Yes in us all Dear Lord...
Speaking up is needed dear Relic and thank you for going for it. My entry is not there to stop you but to guide us all with the wisdom we are made of, by the Spirit of power and love...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
posted
Thanks for the input on praying about our enemies all.
The author of the site has clearly posted their intentions for the publication. If you will read through some of the other material on the site you will see that they are indeed sincere about the edification of the church. Here you go.
Like I said... putting motives on others actions is not right. It leads to assumption, assumption leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to the dark side and death. (OK- a bit overboard with the Star Wars thing )
Jon
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
Yes, we're told to love our enemies, which is why I suggested praying against them out of self defence, and also for the sake of those they'd hurt otherwise, not so much out of hate for them- out of righteous wrath, maybe, and hatred of the sins themselves.
I quote other verses from the Bible, such as when Samson prayed that God would "grant him revenge against the Philistines for at least one eye" and God answered him. Once again I remind us of the actions of Jeremiah, who knew when the time was right to pray for forgiveness, and for punishment, as is seen in his book.
I also remind us that it was God Himself who had Israel destroy the sinful people that inhabited their promised land, God also who commanded his Angels to call down fire and destroy Sodom and Gamorah, and God who had Elijah call fire down from heaven and take the lives of a hundred men.
There are many more examples of this in the Bible, and the people I'm speaking of are some of the most inspirational Christians in history! Yes, we must love our enemies, and yes, we musn't allow Satan into our hearts via hatred, however, the Bible also says that there is a right time for everything; "a time to forgive and a time to kill" is a direct quote. I'm not undermining God's love for all people, nor saying that we shouldn't love all people, sinners or not- what I'm trying to do is point out that God is also just, and that we should be so as Christians.
For an example, there is an antichrist that rises to power, and begins killing many Christians, having no mercy even towards children. Christians pray that God will encourage the antichrist to change his ways, so that he may be forgiven and there may be peace. It is of course a sincere prayer, and God is pleased with said prayer, but what if the antichrist continuously refuses to stop murdering? Should Christians then pray for his forgiveness so that he can continue to use his power to kill and kill, or should they, realising that he simply won't repent, pray for God to judge him and strike him dead so that good people can live peacefully?
We might even consider which would God would prefer; for a man to continue to murder and not recieve any punishment in the false hope that one day, he finally decides to stop, or to provide free, happy lives for the people that actually love Him and are faithful, who would miss out on such a wonderful gify otherwise?
God is Love *and* Justice. It's good to remember that he is Love, of course, and even had a Love so great He even allowed Himself to be crucified rather than lose us, however, I believe we musn't brush aside the verses speaking of Justice because we find it unpleasant; all of the Bible is Holy, and all of it's teachings -even those hard to understand- must be achknowledged. Therefore I achknowledge your point of view, and agree with some points, but I still stand by what I said.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Maybe I was mistaken when I thought of the intentions of the makers of the add, however, there is still the matter of my other points; regardless of the intentions, if a non-believer was to view the adds, how would they react? They would look at the Christians that do things only for money and see truth in the adds, whether said adds are sarcastic or not.
This means that the adds are -as I said- *damaging*, and would probably confuse non-Christians! There are also the matters of those that create lies in the media, homosexual influence, (not only the lying to students, but also gay and lesbian festivals that display sexually immoral things in public, to the pride of those that commit the crimes), persecution of Christians, wars, child abuse, rape and so on.
These things are *not* sarcastic, nor are they assumptions, but facts, and the criminals should be prayed against if they don't turn from their evil! Also, in answer to what you said, yes, I am angry with the people that do these things (at least those that refuse to stop sinning) and rightfully so! It's an outrage, of course, and I'm sure God is feeling both sad, disappointed and angry at these things at the moment, too. But anger is not the same as hatred, nor impatience, and nor is it in this case a sin; I remind us that Jesus Himself turned over the tables, infuriated at what was being done to His Father's House.
Praying for the forgiveness of the persecutor *and* for his judgement if he doesn't repent is a prayer that shows love towards the persecutor in asking God to give him yet another chance, but also achknowledges those being persecuted. In fact, it could be said that refusing to pray for the judgement of those who continue to unjustly hurt others is in fact an act of betrayal to the very ones being stamped on by them!
We must all understand that there is a right time for one thing and a right time for another, as the Bible says, and also understand what times call for what prayers. God certainly understands this. It seems that nowadays Church places emphasis on God's love but almost completely ignores what it is to be Just. This is almost the same as placing emphasis on God's judgement but not considering his Love. Forgiveness and Justice; both these teachings are written, both are needed, and therefore both should be obeyed. Amen.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
I understand your argument about the adverts, like I said, I am still considering if using sarcasm in a public forum is a tool that we should use. I know that there are arguments FOR the use of sarcasm in that way. My statement about assumption->anger->Hate->Death was a loose parody of a quote from Yoda...a character in the Star Wars series of movies... yes...also somewhat sarcastic humor.
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
posted
FastDaddy; Yes, yes... So long as sarcasm and humour doesn't give an inaccurate representation it's of course fine; the answer to the debate is to find out where to draw the line between what we can call humour and things that can be mistaken for something other than sarcasm- and there's the problem with the adds; sarcastic or not, they give the wrong idea to worldly people- *that’s* what I dislike.
So far my point about this has gone unanswered (except by somewhat sarcastic humour) and I'm still waiting a reply to my request to pray against what's been spoken about; these things have also gone unanswered so far.
posted
This was originally posted by Benoit17: "I'll just go with a quote from what Relic wrote in the last post above, to demonstrate the nature of the flesh in what is conveyed by such thoughts:"
This is intriguing, I've been wondering about what kind of Relic he is myself...I Thank you Benoit17 for your wisdom and insight in the following...As you correct 'carnal' Relic... You said... "Defensive lines of thoughts that seek to return to the prophets of old Israel, are rooted in the context of the flesh, born in the world and which do not lead with the Person of Jesus-Christ, nor with the Church nor with the bible."
But of course you left out that at Peter's word two believers (Annas and Sapphira) fell dead and that Paul gave one carnal believer 'over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh'; and also that the saints depicted in Revelation call upon God to avenge their deaths from beheading- and that is yet to come. Does God rebuke these perfected saints in heaven? No! Rather He tells them to be patient... Dear Benoit17, if only you could have been present on these three occasions perhaps you would have been tempted to point out the carnality of God, Paul and Peter and how they too, like Relic, were behaving like old testament prophets and marauding crusaders? The Lord I'm sure would appreciate good advice from you- since God has as sense of humor. However I'm just an ordinary carnal believer that thinks God is a Judge and dispenses mercy or wrath as He wills. Your lofty wisdom is too high for me, dear, dear Benoit17. (That too was sarcastic since it may be you are not British and therefore unable to differentiate between sarcasm and satire.)
But that's not all my dear Benoit17, you go on to tell us of your noble purpose, "Speaking up is needed dear Relic and thank you for going for it. My entry is not there to stop you but to guide us all with the wisdom we are made of, by the Spirit of power and love..." Oh how I weep with joy that we have a true saint among us... well I weep. Where was the love in condemning Relic?
I look forward to a response so that I may share in his condemnation, O' oracle of biblical truth!
NOW, DID YOU ENJOY HAVING YOUR FAULTS BEING POINTED OUT BY THE USE OF SARCASM?
posted
I see that my post has rubbed you the wrong way. You seem to miss out the point I made in the quote of mine that you used yourself, which was "such thoughts". There is no condemnation on Relic in what I said, so you can relax your attitude and tone of "I look forward to a response so that I may share in his condemnation, O' oracle of biblical truth!"
Authority of God given to His servants as seen in the New-Testament's examples that you mentioned and hate/self-defense driven prayers and/or actions are not the same.
By the way, I had the experience of having to pray for the removal of someone once who had gone far off the deep end in his work for the Lord, causing suffering of newly born again people. I was on my knees for an hour and a half before I could feel the peace to get back with my day's activities. Three days later, that person had a fatal car accident, all alone, far from hurting anyone else. This is one incident with my direct involvement and then there are all these other times when people pass away as they try to come against the work I do, in my service to the Lord.
Regarding the rest of your sarcasm, I just thank God I dont have to bear with such "brotherly" aproach. Thanks for replying, it tells me a whole lot about your frame of mind, which obviously needs much renewing.
Go on weeping of joy that sarcasm provides you if you want, but you might want to consider that such attitude is how Jesus was treated by the Romans for being Himself and holy,(thanks for the honour) whereas for myself, I'll go on serving He Who looks after life and death, with or without our prayers and involvement!!!
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
posted
Benoit17, You will die one day too, as will we all, and then it will be seen how many of those whom God supposedly struck dead for opposing you were His servants, men who in fact had nothing to do with you.
posted
[/QUOTE:] originally posted by Benoit17: Authority of God given to His servants as seen in the New-Testament's examples that you mentioned and hate/self-defense driven prayers and/or actions are not the same.
Benoit17:
If this is true, then in what way are my requests for prayer different to the actions of the said apostles and other prophets? I am not saying that I'm holy like they are, of course, or even worthy of holding their sandals, but the basic principals of both the prayers of myself and those holy people are the same; we prayed against sinners. So then what's the difference, exactly?
BlackSwan and I have been using quotes from the Bible to back up our claims, but so far, Benoit17, you've only been speaking from your own heart.
I back up this claim by a quote from you: "This is one incident with my direct involvement and then there are all these other times when people pass away as they try to come against the work I do".
I responded courteously in your response regarding myself, since that's how Christians act; they turn the other cheek. However, I have to say that death-threats towards another member of this Christian forum because that member fails to agree with your own arrogant, narrow-minded words that you haven't even managed to back up with Bible verses in response to ones that *are* backed by the Bible seems strange to me. Why don't you point out to us the grave error BlackSwan has made to deserve such ill treatment from yourself? We could almost call it 'sinful', couldn't we, Benoit17?
Did you know that such words show a lot about your frame of mind, which obviously needs renewing? The way you've treated BlackSwan is similar to the way the Pharisees mumbled together hatefully about how "Jesus was this" and "Jesus is that" and "look at Him! He thinks he is so and so but it is *we* who are the pride of God Himself! So come, let's (I quote you) guide everyone with the wisdom *we* are made of, by the Spirit of power and love..." As Jesus said, one blind man leads another blind man into a pit... isn't that right, Benoit17?
And yet you speak and act as if *you're* the innocent yet persecuted hero, riding on his high white horse with his golden armour and jewelled sword? Look at the log in your own eye for a change, and you might find that it is in fact *you* who's the loathesome one garment in rags. God could lift these rags, if you were willing to let go of your pride, but as it is with people such as yourself, not being willing to suffer through the guilt and humiliation of repentance is always your downfall. It's a sad state your in, Benoit17, and the ludicrousness of it would be laughable if only such foolish pride didn't result in damnation, and I truly wish things could be otherwise- I really do... not that I expect you to understand this, of course.
"People nail Jesus to the Cross, and as they do so, claim that *they* are the ones being crucified, Benoit17."
You have threatened that God will strike BlackSwan dead, Benoit17, so now I have corrected you, and warned *you* of the danger that *you're* in, and end this post with a further warning, though I expect that someone who is only half as much consumed in arrogance as yourself will not heed it, nor recognize the sinister truth of that warning, as taught in Proverbs, however, as a Christian who have myself been forgiven by Jesus because of his sacrifice, I feel I am in obligation to at least try... Before you assume that I am "condemning" you, I would point out that no I am not. It is not my place to condemn anyone, but God's right alone; this is as I said merely a warning that will result in condemnation by God if not taken seriously; for future references please open the Bible- if you're capable of taking a few moments to spend time reading *and* listening to it.
Do not think to play with fire, Benoit17, particularly if it is hellfire. You'll regret it later.
-------------------- Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
posted
Wow! you Aussies have a thin skin and a way of twisting what others say to fit your own agenda, all the while you are the ones making weak links to the Pharisees and Romans in a not so subtle attempt at "putting us in our place".
Benoit NEVER threatened that God would strike BalckSwan nor did he imply it. He was relating his personal experience in "praying against" others... like you suggested we do.
As far as your "Using quotes from the Bible to back up your claim... I know many cults and anti-christians that use the same technique. It's called proof-texting over here. Using short snippets of Bible verses, you can say almost anything and have it be "backed by scripture". So far using these tactics you have attacked almost everyone on this list, called us all fools, rebels, and stopped just short of accusing us of being contrary to the Kingdom.
I think it is becoming clear that you are either messengers of divisiveness or you really do believe you have a much better grasp on spiritual maters than anyone else here. If the later is the case then there is no glory in attempting to stomp on people you feel are inferior to you. If it is the first, you should be ignored. Time will tell.
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
posted
FastDaddy: I'm so sympathetic. I think this is a pretty major misunderstanding, and hope the overall tenor of the forum here won't get too bogged down by such. This reminds me of why I've embraced the "seven commands of Christ"... it will keep us busy all day long, and allows grace in so many areas.
I don't think a discussion of "Jesus junk" should get so heated... especially since everyone here agrees that A. there is junk B. there is authenticity and C. we have a duty to shun the former without undermining the latter.
posted
"Benoit NEVER threatened that God would strike BlackSwan nor did he imply it. He was relating his personal experience in "praying against" others... like you suggested we do."- quote from FastDaddy.
FastDaddy;
That's strange, Benoit17 never thought we should pray against others when he posted his first post in this discussion. And the answer is yes he did threaten BlackSwan. He gave BlackSwan a warning that if BlackSwan "interfered with his work, God would strike him dead". What you said is a lie.
And you lied again, FastDaddy,; you falsley accused me of trying to get us all to pray agaist "others", which would imply everyone. I suggested we pray against those who persecute Christians, *not* threaten other members of this forum with death!!! If there is any post of mine which contradicts this, quote me.
In answer to your third lie, your second false accusation of me, where I am accused of attacking: I have "attacked" no one on this forum. I have tried to correct one or two -not because I think I'm better or wiser- but because it is my obligation as a Christian to do so! I would in turn accept such correction from other members if I found it to be true, which is what we call "humility". If you consider truthful accusations attacking, then note that I accused someone only when that person attacked another member of this forum. If there is any post of mine that contradicts this, quote me.
In answer to your last lie, in which you accuse me of thinking I have a better grasp on spiritual matters: Who do you think you are? I have never once come close to boasting in any of my posts. If I have, then quote me.
The next time you think to accuse me, FastDaddy, *quote* me and prove that what you say is true. If you can accuse me but have no quotes of mine to back up your accusations, then you have no proof and no truth in what you say.
posted
Dear everyone of this thread and of this forum,
Please, forgive my delay in answering. First, as the saying goes, please forgive my French. The English I write comes from when I started to speak it, at 20 years old. Much of my thoughts get articulated with a deep root of French. I am a little in a state of shock, at the bi-polar reaction to how my thoughts have come across to English speaking people. So here is a crack at answering with as much wisdom as I am given at the moment:
1- None of what I MEAN to convey, aims at condemning anyone, since no one can escape it, as we are born with the nature which is so. My aim is to point out to where condemnation remains, amongst those of us who are being saved, so as to offer some relief or confort, but certainly not condemnation.
2- Arrogance is what I reckon my soul and body to be made of and my will power is attached to my soul and body, therefore, neither can help me to obey God. Therefore, I ask God to heal me from such nature by keeping me into His renewal Covenant so that the arrogance I am made of, becomes the boldness to approach thr throne of Grace, driven by the power of the cross.
3- To anyone whom I offeded with my Frenglish, I ask for forgiveness and I certainly accept all the well spoken advices, if such a case applies to my inner condition. In that regard, I ask God to shine His light where any deciet that may be ruling over me, get to be cleansed out of my being. I ask God for the one light spoken of in scriptures, that The Lord uses to search us out, so that if deceit or evil is found to be at work in spite of me, or, the ones that do with my conscent, that I may be operated surgically by His Sprit and brought up to the maturity of the one new man in the full stature of Christ, along with us all who are His bride to be.
4- In 33 years of knowing that the Lord knows me, the one testomony of my life which is obvious to anyone who's known me personaly, it is that God scourges and chastises those whom He loves. I genuinely am one who fits the words of scriptures, saying that God chooses the foolinsh and vile things of the world to confound the wise and powerful of this world. I, indeed, am vile and foolish. Paul claimed to be chief of sinners...well,we shall have some interesting conversations about such extremes of the human condition, sometimes in eternity. I'm sure that there will be millions of others who'll meet up with him before me, but it'll be eternity...pleinty of time, as such memories as the ones of God on earth with each one of us, get to remain present forever, and shall go on feeding the humanity who is yet to be, with revelation and inspiration, supplying much creativity to keep us busy with for much of the passages from eternity to eternity...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
posted
Since we are discussing humour and sarcasm in particular, although it is more correct to say satire, and the pros and cons of using satirical content for Christian edification...let me tell you the the last posts have brought a hearty smile to my face. My own humour I think is a bit wry. I appreciate Relic's impassioned defense but I hope it won't stop Benoit17 from continuing to amuse me. As for FastDaddy - We Aussies don't have thin skins but are usually as tough as old boots and so feel free to let fly as much as you want- I won't complain. The Lord has a sense of humour but it is always gentle and never demeaning. The simple question is 'Do the adverts and images we looked at make him laugh or smile?'
But since some of you are in need of a little lighthearted humour let me quote you this prayer that I once heard from the lips of an impassioned but very serious young man. 'O lord Jesus, you love all the animals and I know you love my hamster. I know lord you would be willing to die on a cruel cross for my little hamster lord. Yes lord, I praise you for you did die for my hamster lord!...'
Here is another prayer that was prayed in a large evangelical church and held up the sermon for 45 minutes! 'Lord and Father, I must confess my sins. I had sex with my husband on Wednesday and on Thursday and it was wonderful lord. Then again on Friday and Saturday and praise God almost every day for the last two months. But I am having too much sex lord and so I confess it to you...As wonderful as it is is it right for me to have so much sex especially when other women have so little and their husbands aren't so good in bed...' She continued on in this manner until people were saying hearty Amens as a hint for her to finish but she didn't and as this was an English church that I was visiting I noticed they were too polite to stop her- and so she told all about her sex life and the sermon had to be drastically shortened.
Well I don't remember what that sermon was about but I do remember her prayer and in fact am pleased that she had it so good...
p.s.
Actually I have posted this at almost the same time as benoit17 and didn't see the above post of his reply as I was writing this. Having now seen it I add this p.s. I pray that God may bless benoit17 very mightily- as you are obviously a man capable of great humility- and for that I thank you and I'm sure Jesus will reward you! I'll try to follow your example.
I think that humour in the Spirit is healthy, for the joy of the Lord is our strength, as repeated in various ways, in the psalms.
Sarcasm is a different story, rooted in a different ground than humor all together. Sarcasm is rooted in arrogance, at best! It can only attack, it cannot defend, nor be defended without the escalation of intensity that streches from the discomfort of unsolvable arguments, all the way to conflict, where wars begin from. By God's wisdom guiding a particular moment, sarcasm may be pointed to, in order to make a point of order, but it cannot be used to actually mean anything other than a contrast to where God is to be found.
God does not stretch His holiness with sarcasm in any way, form nor shape, period!
As we interact with people driven by the mind of the flesh producing sarcasm, then to point it out is only used for the sake of planting the seed of salvation from such dominated mind.
There is a very fine line between the humor with which God's joy is stregthening us, versus the sarcasm that irritates Him and weakens and divides us and keep us from effective service to spread the Kingdom. In that sense, the revelation is coming to me at the moment, as to how much God's light for which I prayed for earlier on this thread, is the shining of His glory that makes us one. Everything, anything and anyone who and which work to divide us, is of the flesh. I can not see where sarcasm and the Spirit can ever meet other than where the Spirit comes with the wisdom of God, turning sarcasm into His blend of humor.
"Keep us laughing with You dear Lord and keep us from the quick sand effect of sarcasm upon Your joy in each of us, Your children...amen to Your Yes in us all...
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
Thank you Benoit... That is what I was looking for. The dissecting of sarcasm in that way makes it very clear that it has no place or use for us as Believers. The root of anything will bring you to it's true purpose. Thank you.
Now, BlackSwan, you pointed out correctly that most of what I had mislabeled sarcasm is in actuality... satire. There is a distinct difference between the two. How then is satire to be viewed? This relates directly to the Adverts.
My particular thoughts on this are that... 1. There is to much truth to the adverts to really be funny for long. 2. I am saddened and sobered by the truth that they reflect. 3. IS this the desired effect that the creator of the satire wanted? 4. How would Christ view this and its effect?
Any thoughts on this?
-------------------- "Too many clowns... not enough circuses." -unknown
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I have to agree with you on both "lukewarm" Christians and those who outright lie in an attempt to deceive others into believing that Christians are delusional....... We need to pray for one and against the other. (though the against thing is.... well, is there a scriptural basis for praying AGAINST something or someone?")