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The phrase "be the church" has really caught on with some. It has been contrasted to "doing church." Some seem to have created an entire world view around it.
Questions: What is/are the scripture/s for "being the church?" Where is the phrase seen in distinction from "doing church" or doing anything?
Is the phrase "be the church" developed in any book or website which anyone is aware of?
Is the word "church" ever applied to a single person, scripturally speaking?
quote:John 2:18-22 The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
I think Christ redefined the church here. The temple was/is no longer a building, but Him, and we (the church) are in Christ.
We think that being in Christ is not enough...that we need to do something. This is disrespectful to the riches that are in Christ. As Paul wrote to Ephesus...all things are in Christ. He is enough.
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Jesus usually didn't explain the figures of speech he used. Here he did. I am unable to see that he had his church in view when he explained the temple of his body was going to be resurrected after three days. There, of course, are many parallels and corollaries for us in these words, Jesus being the first fruits of the resurrection and us, his temple or dwelling place.
I was just thinking about Jesus being a servant. That would certainly imply action. Luke 12:43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Elsewhere: If anyone would be great in the Kingdom, let him be the servant of all.
The words of the old hymn still ring true with respect to our justification: Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. That act of justification marks the beginning of a lifelong process, known as sanctification. In it we work out (not for) our salvation, knowing that he works in us.
Say tragicrock, I understand that hundreds of house churches have been planted in CO in just the past year. Are you associated with any of them, by chance?
Peace to your house, friend.
truelove
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John 2:18-22 The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi tragic rock.. When you think about it the temple was church for them during that time. Looks like Jesus said, bye bye to church. And He did raise the temple up, but not the way it was before being made of inorganic materials. His body being the temple certainly redefined church. and the work Ekklesia is the Gr word that we should be referring to when we think of our english word church, unfortunately lots of people today don't think of that. Ekklesia; believers in Christ; from the past, present, and into the future...
I love what you said here.... We think that being in Christ is not enough...that we need to do something. This is disrespectful to the riches that are in Christ. As Paul wrote to Ephesus...all things are in Christ. He is enough.
Truelove's response: It certainly is enough, He is enough, and if we can start there and just let God live in and through us, we'll probably get the real scoop on "being the temple of God".. and I bet you it will redefine alot of people's definitions of what church is..
I'm always blessed when the ekklesia understands "being" rather than doing... Thanks for sharing. Truelove
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Hello brothers and sisters, I usually hear the contrast/ statement at the head of this thread with one word change, “Being the Church instead of GOING to church”. Birds fly, they also flock together sometimes, chickens roost, fish swim, truck drivers drive, children play and churches meet, it’s just what they do because of who they are. This is a good lesson worthy of both I C’ers and house/home churchers alike to learn: An authentic born again relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ will give birth to authentic born again relationships with fellow brothers and sisters. Being reconciled to God will bring into being the kind of changes in a person that will tend to make him reconciled with and fervent with Agape LOVE for people around him, especially the brethren. (Of course expect enemies as well.) The common mistake of many is that we tend to think we’ve done our duty before God and man when we’ve gone to our meet’n one, two, or ( if we really think we’re spiritual) three times per week. It is hard to see that there is so much more need that we, the body, have for its everyday functioning.
Heb 13:12 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
Take notice, how often are the brethren supposed to exhort one another? Look again. This is daily for the stated purpose that we will likely become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin if it is not occurring daily. The phrase "one another" occurs 56 times in the epistles alone. There’s something special about this new family. You are all members one of another:
1Cor 12:12”For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14For the body is not one member, but many.”
“Is the phrase "be the church" developed in any book or website which anyone is aware of?” Not that I know of.
“Is the word "church" ever applied to a single person, scripturally speaking?” No, two or three gathered in his name seems to be the minimum.
Now “doing” church could have the connotation of being flippant, such as i might hear in a “Purpose Driven” church (Not Jesus Driven) or it could just be describing what the the real church acts like, remember cats purr, dogs bark churches meet. In any case, please let us take from it the lesson the we as individuals need to be connected with the body in “spiritual fellowship” daily as we walk in felllowship with the Lord or we are hamstringing ourselves. May God forbid that i should say “I have no need of you, today my brother.”
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Hiya Mick, hiya Truelove, Tragicrock, et al,
Words are conveyors of concepts. If the concept is valid then I don't mind how it's expressed. A phrase like "doing church" doesn't offend me because it usually has to do with church issues as "doing lunch" has to do with meal issues.
I am yet unable to see any concept of how being or being the church is better than, against, or distinguished from doing. Jesus often spoke of the Christian life as that of a servant. Can you imagine a servant not having anything to do? (I recently submitted a rare poem which asked this very question.) If there is nothing to do, why does James remind us not merely to be hearers of the word only but doers of it also, lest we deceive ourselves?
Luke 12:43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds DOING so when he returns.
Luke 12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or DOES NOT DO what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
1 Corinthians 15:58 Always give yourselves fully to the WORK of the Lord, because you know that YOUR LABOR in the Lord is not in vain.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 We continually remember before our God and Father your WORK produced by faith, your LABOR prompted by love, and your ENDURANCE inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 4:9-10 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: and for this WE LABOR and STRIVE, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1Timothy 5:13 Besides, they get into the habit of BEING IDLE and going about from house to house. And not only do they become IDLERS, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
"Just be" rather than just do? No. BE DILIGENT in these matters; give yourself WHOLLY to them, so that everyone may see YOUR PROGRESS. 1 Timothy 4:15
I keep seeing the saints called to activity and action - action in his strength alone but action nonetheless. I can DO all things through Christ which strengthens me. Thank God he calls us to be the co-laborers with Him in his vineyard. Thank God he didn't save us to put us in a deep freeze when He redeemed us. I am quite honoured that God has given me something to do. Would He ever steer me into paths which are against my best interests? And if and when I fail, my permanent sonship status is unaffected.
Jesus gave an account of a person who doubtless had a deep-seated aversion to doing. He probably saw himself as contemplative, mystical, highly passive but highly spiritual, other-worldly type - into just being. As lazy people today are full of clever excuses, so was he: I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you. His master replied, "You WICKED, LAZY SERVANT! Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that WORTHLESS SERVANT outside into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 25:25-30.
I am not applying this story to anyone here - far from it - but I do believe it may have some bearing on the question.
Amen! Very excelllent points. I agree whole heartedly. I've read "Christian" historians remark that their research into the first and second century Christians reveal a people obsessed with doing good deeds and fanatically compullsive about not doing any sin or anything that looks like sin. Their conclusion is that all Christainity became morbidly legallistic in the middle of the first century. I think these early Christians just were taking their Lords words as seriously as he told them to. "Why do you call me "Lord" and do not the things which I tell you?"
This quote adds a further point to support your assertions: “What primarily precipitates the enemy's invasion among the "heathen" and among carnal Christians is wilful sin; but "the primary cause of DECEPTION ... in surrendered believers may be condensed into one word, PASSIVITY; that is, a cessation of the active exercise of the will in control over spirit, soul and body, or either, as may be the case." The organ of volition ceases to choose and decide matters referred to it. "The word passivity simply describes the opposite condition to ACTIVITY; and in the experience of the believer it means, briefly, (1) loss of self-control in the sense of the person himself controlling each, or all, of the departments of his personal being; and (2) loss of freewill in the sense of the person himself exercising his will as the guiding principle of personal control, in harmony with the will of God."
THE PASSIVITY OF A SAINT ARISES OUT OF THE NON-USE OF HIS VARIOUS TALENTS. HE HAS A MOUTH BUT REFUSES TO TALK BECAUSE HE HOPES THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL SPEAK THROUGH IT. HE HAS BANDS BUT WILL NOT ENGAGE THEM SINCE HE EXPECTS GOD TO DO IT. HE DOES NOT EXERCISE ANY PART OF HIS PERSON BUT WAITS FOR GOD TO MOVE HIM. HE CONSIDERS HIMSELF FULLY SURRENDERED TO GOD; SO HE NO LONGER WILL USE ANY ELEMENT OF HIS BEING. THUS HE FALLS INTO AN INERTIA WHICH OPENS THE WAY FOR DECEPTION AND INVASION.
Upon accepting the teaching of their union with God's will, Christians often develop a wrong concept of what this union signifies. They misconstrue it to mean to obey God passively. THEY THINK THEIR WILL MUST BE CANCELLED OUT AND THAT THEY MUST BECOME PUPPETS. THEY MAINTAIN THAT THEY MUST NOT EMPLOY THEIR OWN VOLITION ANY MORE NOR THAT THEIR WILL SHOULD EXERCISE CONTROL OVER ANY OTHER SEGMENT OF THEIR BODY. They no longer choose, decide, or activate with their will. At first it appears to be a great victory, for amazingly "the 'strong-willed' person suddenly becomes passively yielding." (Penn-Lewis, WOTS, 73) He is as weak as water. He holds no opinion on any affair but obeys orders absolutely. He exercises neither mind, nor will, nor even conscience to distinguish between good and evil, for be is a person of perfect obedience. Only when he is moved does he move; a perfect condition (and an invitation too) for the enemy to come in.
BY FALLING INTO THIS STATE OF INACTION THE CHRISTIAN NOW CEASES FROM EVERY ACTIVITY. INDEED, HE WAITS QUIETLY ALL THE TIME FOR SOME EXTERNAL FORCE TO ACTIVATE HIM. AND UNLESS THIS FORCE COMPELS HIM TO MOVE HE SHALL REMAIN DECIDEDLY INERT.
If such a situation is permitted to continue this one will discover that sometimes when he knows he should act he cannot because the external force has not come upon him. Moreover, even when he wants to act he finds he is unable to do so. Without that outside power he cannot move a step. His will is suppressed and he is bound; he can move only after that alien force has come to move him.”
-Ni To Shang (otherwise known as "Watchman Nee")
My only addition is that many a person go about to "do church" or "go to church" when they have never truly been converted to Christ. They "do" something they call "church" but have only the notions of what church does from the precepts of men without having a personal revelation of Christ the Head of the church. They cannot in reality "do church" beacause they never came to be united with the churches Head and thus become the body of Christ. Your gently stated admonishment is much needed. With what ease do men fall into slumber, deceived by satan with the slogan "being the church not doing church" and so leave off serving Christ. Being and doing go hand in hand. "He put His Spirit in us to do and to will His good pleasure".
Mick
truelove
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I've been reading these posts and all the while I've been somewhat feeling like there is a tug of war going on between those who speak about being and those who speak about going and I've really had a hard time to understand why that it. Why there seems to be such an aversion to the statement, "you don't need to go to church, you just need to be the church",, be the believer, the ekklesia, that you are. And then as I read and reread the posts of those who seem to have a problem with "being" I realized that the problem is a result of how we interpret what being means.
Mick wrote: in reference to the illustrations of birds fly, etc.. it’s just what they do because of who they are.
Yes... amen... it's just what we do because of who we are. Because of who we are in Christ, we will do good deeds, we will exhort others daily, we will try to keep ourselves from sin... That's being what we are... that's being who we are in Christ... and out of that will all these things flow and God's at the wheel.. Amen....
I don't think I've ever read a book that has developed the idea of being the church, but I have seen the phrase often times and heard it spoken of often times. I think the book that has developed the concept of being the church is the bible... The only definition I know of for church is the Greek word; Ekklesia and its definition... a believer in Christ.. Are there any other Greek words for Church? So I thing the bible indeed is a book that has been written to develope the idea of being the church.. It tells us so much about how to be a believer. It tells us about living in the Spirit and not Flesh, it tells us about sin; what it is and what it isn't, it tells us how to treat others, it tells us I think someone said, over 56 one anothers, so it has lots to say about how to treat one another, and this is all about being the church.. it talks about sharing a meal with others, praying for one another, exhorting one another, feeding the poor, .... so much, so much to be said about "being" in Christ, "being" and if we are "being" we'll be doing these things as the opportunities present itself, wherever we are at, where we live, where we work, where we play, where we shop..
and then how sad that there are those that will hide behind the phrase "being" the church, just to become lazy and live in sin as Mick wrote, "With what ease do men fall into slumber, deceived by satan with the slogan "being the church not doing church" and so leave off serving Christ. I've had so little experience with people who understand the idea of "being" the church that I've yet to meet someone who uses that phrase for justification for their laziness, living in sin, and aversion to coming together in any capacity with other believer's, or anything else that goes with "being" who we are in Christ. But, I guess that is possible as anything is..
And then on the other hand, how sad that many... oh so many.... in so much "doing" and "going" to church, miss out on "being" the ekklesia, being a believer in Christ and thus out of that allowing the "doing" which comes from Christ living in us, our being the temple of a might God... They both have their errors..
But amen to what Mick wrote: "Being and doing go hand in hand. "He put His Spirit in us to do and to will His good pleasure". But how sad for: Churches filled with doers going who don't know Christ...
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Amen, Truelove, good post. I’ve seen the same things.
quote: So I thing the bible indeed is a book that has been written to develope the idea of being the church.. It tells us so much about how to be a believer. It tells us about living in the Spirit and not Flesh, it tells us about sin; what it is and what it isn't, it tells us how to treat others, it tells us I think someone said, over 56 one anothers, so it has lots to say about how to treat one another, and this is all about being the church.. it talks about sharing a meal with others, praying for one another, exhorting one another, feeding the poor, .... so much, so much to be said about "being" in Christ, "being" and if we are "being" we'll be doing these things as the opportunities present itself, wherever we are at, where we live, where we work, where we play, where we shop..
I too see the scripture as the book explaining how to be the church. I especially agree we “be” or do these things where we are as the opportunities are presented. I think the heart of the tug of war you are noticing may be because they don’t see the “be”ers as doing. Though if one is, one will. Also, some place greater emphasis on seeking a meeting, others just let it happen in God’s timing. Some feel they must go out and organize a big meeting of all; others don’t set it up; but wait on the Lord to do the gathering together. I think we must consider the differences in people. Some are out going and others not, some like crowds and others not, etc. Different people, different gifts, different personalities, different abilities and different purposes given to them by God.
There are many things that we do in Christ other than meeting. Why some place meeting as the most important, I can’t understand. I guess they love crowds for they seem to think the 2 or 3 meetings don’t count for much. And then there are the various ways men think we must meet, as we have already discussed the meaning of regular varies from person to person. I think what is classified as a meeting often varies too. Thus, they feel some are lazy and not doing because they are not meeting in a certain way some feel is necessary.
quote:and then how sad that there are those that will hide behind the phrase "being" the church, just to become lazy and live in sin as Mick wrote, "With what ease do men fall into slumber, deceived by satan with the slogan "being the church not doing church" and so leave off serving Christ. I've had so little experience with people who understand the idea of "being" the church that I've yet to meet someone who uses that phrase for justification for their laziness, living in sin, and aversion to coming together in any capacity with other believer's, or anything else that goes with "being" who we are in Christ. But, I guess that is possible as anything is..
I’ve seen just the opposite of Mick‘s observation. Many do church; but have never seen Christ or have a clue as to what he expects. They hide behind their going to. It’s as if going to washes away their sin rather than Christ’s blood. It is also as if their going to is their good deeds! Out side the church meeting, it is very difficult to see any difference between them and the drunk, thief, adulterer, murderer, etc.
Also our perspective colors how we view others. Say a person was exhorting and meeting and loving and doing with a person or two over here; but you were over there and not receiving any of this interaction, then you might feel the person was not meeting because they weren’t meeting with you. Hmm. My reply would be to get busy doing to others and God would reward you in his time and way. We can’t compare. I remember when Judas complained about the woman pouring expensive oil on our Lord’s feet. He said it could be sold and used for the poor. However, Jesus pointed out she honored him and the poor would always be there, showing that no matter how much good we try to do there will always be more to do. There was no way they could help all the poor. Thus, realistically we can’t meet with every Christian, we can’t exhort every person; but we can do what is given to us at the time. Just because we aren’t included doesn’t mean we are excluded as Mick’s comment seems to insinuate.
quote:May God forbid that i should say “I have no need of you, today my brother.”
I think we would all do well to remember that each of us is the Lord’s servant. As such, it is the Lord who will touch each individual heart and give each individual Christian exactly how much to do, regardless of what the other guy thinks or has to do. I wouldn’t call anyone lazy or slack because they don’t live up to my expectations of what doing or being entails because I’m not the one giving orders. Each person is accountable to the Lord, the Lord will judge who is lazy and who is not. He is the one who knows the hearts and abilities of each. He is the one who knows each of our gifts and where and when each of them may be used to serve his will the best.
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Every good thing has it's counterfeit. No doubt, folks can do good things for bad reasons. Happens every day. I'm guilty. No one ever argued in this thread that Christians should not be all that they could be as they follow Christ and seek to be led by Him at all times.
In a few of the above posts, 'being' has been pitted against 'doing' as if they were diametrically opposed. They're not. They are perfectly complementary for those truly in Christ. It shouldn't surprise us that there are more commands in the New Testament than the Old.
'Being' was also confidently pitted against 'gathering' and that without a scintilla of evidence.
'Church' never applies to one Christian alone. For an individual to maintain that he is the church or that he can be the church is like claiming to be a family or a football team or an orchestra.
May all of us be what we should be and do what we should do. Whether therefore you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
truelove
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D Anderson wrote:
'Being' was also confidently pitted against 'gathering' and that without a scintilla of evidence.
Truelove: I on the otherhand saw, "gathering in some premeditated and ordained format" was also confidentally pitted against "being" and that without a scintilla of evidence.
D Anderson wrote: 'Church' never applies to one Christian alone. For an individual to maintain that he is the church or that he can be the church is like claiming to be a family or a football team or an orchestra.
Truelove: I'm so glad that you brought that point up, that there are individuals who maintain that he/she is the church or that he/she can be the church. When Jesus broke bread with His disciples he passed around a loaf of bread; representing Himself/His body, and then he passed it to them and they each took a piece of that bread, representing being a part of that Body...in one as well as each being one. It's a wonderfully deep and life giving spiritual understanding.. that is.. to comprehend and see what only the spiritual eyes can see and the eyes of our heart can understand.. that is, "I am the church and to be the church".. God bless you in your "being" and understanding who you are in the Body and walking in Him...
DANderson wrote: May all of us be what we should be and do what we should do. Whether therefore you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Truelove: May you live peacefully with all men as much as is in your control. Those of us who believe.. the good news is that it's been Done.. and Jesus did it for us.... It's done... It's done.... It's done.... That is so amazing.. I am in Him and He in me. The creator of this universe, the author and definition of love, lives in us and us in Him. Now all I have to do is respond to Him.. abide in Him.. the one obstacle I see is my flesh or the flesh of others trying to take that away or get in the way.
Faith wrote: I think we would all do well to remember that each of us is the Lord’s servant. As such, it is the Lord who will touch each individual heart and give each individual Christian exactly how much to do, regardless of what the other guy thinks or has to do. I wouldn’t call anyone lazy or slack because they don’t live up to my expectations of what doing or being entails because I’m not the one giving orders. Each person is accountable to the Lord, the Lord will judge who is lazy and who is not. He is the one who knows the hearts and abilities of each. He is the one who knows each of our gifts and where and when each of them may be used to serve his will the best.
Truelove's response: Faith, before I came to understood the things we have discussed on the Post that I think you and I have a similar understanding of....and while I was "doing and going", I would have to remind myself that I was the Lord's servant.. Now, I don't, because it is as you said, "it is the Lord who will touch our heart's and show us how much to do". And I agree with you about not calling anyone lazy or slack because everyone has their relationship and it's Him who they are accountable to as you said and we don't need to but in... except God calls us in. And I find most often that the prevailing idea of exhorting is truly not God's idea of exhorting. Time and time again, God has allowed me to see deeply into a situation that gives the appearance on the surface to be what others may call, "lazy, slack, or some other undesirable, or even sin"... But, what I have found most often when being called in is that I am given truth and deeper understanding of something and God's plan for me to have that information is not for the purpose of pointing my finger, condemning, and exhorting by saying, you should do this, you shouldn't do that.. but to come along side that person and help that person in a way that God does indeed show me from the Spirit and not from my flesh or what man's perceptions are on how to handle things.
Here's a simple illustration, "on an airplane recently I caused discomfort to the other passengers seated in the area I was to sit and here's how..I had four other people to get situated and settled into there seats, along with there carry on luggage, etc. We couldn't find overhead compartments that had room for our stuff, so it was a bit of a problem when I had to walk up and down the plane opening up compartments, checking for space, and at the same time keep my eye on the other four in my care and get the little ones settled. You know, trying to keep track of the little ones and the carry on's, etc.. After some time, I finally had everyone settled and had found compartment space, but all during the time I could see out of the corner of my eyes that there were some people in my seating area that were annoyed and literally making comments to each other(pointing their fingers at me)as if I was doing something wrong. I tried to avoid making anyone comfortable, but it seems just the fact that I was moving up and down the aisle, rather than being seated was an annoyance to others. Anyways after I got the carryons in place and the other four settled, then there was the last straw... I had been carrying a bag of food to put under my seat with food and snacks and suddenly it broke open and the food fell out onto the floor. But, by now the plane started moving and I heard someone say kind of harshly, "Mam the plane is moving get in your seat", another passenger. So, I searched for some napkins and something to put the food into and tried to quickly cleanup the mess on the floor and all the while the people who were sitting right there were staring at me and literally making sounds of disgust along with their facial expressions showing their disappoval. Here's the thing, not one person offered to help me and instead..all of them surrounding me just pointed the finger at me for disrupting their comfort. I was guilty of something wrong because they were feeling uncomfortable. At one point my oldest daughter took up my defense, "and looked at one man who was blatantly staring and making faces", and she said, "do you think we really wanted this to happen and that we did this on purpose"..
Anyways, I was on the floor cleaning up the food, the plane was moving, feeling under great condemnation and then I looked up and there was one nice "steward" standing there and I was at his feet on the floor and when I looked up at him, he had the warmest and most tender and compassionate look on his face and he said softly, "what happened and how can I help you?" I explained to him that the bag broke open and the food fell out. He smiled a warm smile and then he simply went over and got me a couple bags to put the food into and told me not to worry about the mess and he wanted me to be safe and he guided me to my seat".... Remind you of anyone..
So here it is... The tone and the tug of war, the accusations about those people who have a different understanding of church and "being" the church is similar to how the people on that plane behaved, "pointing their fingers and making faces and sounds of disgust" because of the appearance of something and I'll go so far as to say as a result of there own discomfort and lack of understanding and because as Faith said, "Also our perspective colors how we view others." So for me when coming to scriptural or spiritual truths, a red flag goes up for me when it's one way or no way, or it's all or nothing, or it's my way or it's wrong.
And about what Faith said, "I think the heart of the tug of war you are noticing may be because they don’t see the “be”ers as doing. Exactly my point Faith, it's as I said in my earlier post, "And then as I read and reread the posts of those who seem to have a problem with "being" I realized that the problem is a result of how we interpret what being means. And yes, the interpretation I see here is that the "being" is not doing anything, doing nothing, to the point of being judged as " being lazy and slack". But that is so far from the truth.. It's a wrong perspective and it's a wrong interpretaion.. it's a lie that Satan has spread. and as a result it causes contention and lack of unity, and that's always the plan of the enemy. always believing his lies. It blames, it wrongfully names, it accuses, it shames, it deceives and it paints an inaccurate picture on the appearance rather than the truth that lies deeper than the surface.
As D Anderson wrote; being is doing. That's how I see it too. And I'd like to invite anyone who has a hard time understanding this concept of "being" the church.. to spend a week at my house and then tell me that being is "lazy, slack, and doesn't do anything, that it has little or no significance in the Kingdom of God or for God's purposes, or in effecting others. I think the person who takes me up on it will be pleasantly surprised to see what "being" really looks like in the life of someone who has learned to "be" the church.
Once again: The only definition I know of for church is the Greek word; Ekklesia and its definition... a believer in Christ.. Are there any other Greek words for Church? I used to be a child of the Prince of this world and out of my being came a heart towards and for sin, it was against God. I now am a child/follower of Christ; a christian, "a little Christ".. and out of my being comes a heart towards God and what is right in His eyes".. and I am the ekklesia and I am "being"
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I agree Truelove. I don't think I've seen anyone say they are the church period. Like a church of one and no one else is a part of the church. That's not what we are saying. By being the church, we are a part. As a part, the other parts may not always know what our part is, just as we may not know what their part is. The head knows what each of our parts are and gives them to us. That is what is important. Give the Lord the reins and don't worry that we don't understand everything or everyone.
Oh, the plane situation you gave reminds me so much of Job and his friends or of the woman and those who wanted to cast stones at her, or sadly the IC's. (May I say not all people in the IC's but the large majority.) Why does human nature tell us to wait and point fingers? The Lord's spirit tells us to just have compassion and help where help is needed.
quote:May all of us be what we should be and do what we should do. Whether therefore you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Amen, David. This is being. Being in Christ, being his church, however, where ever, when ever, he leads.
truelove
posted
Faith wrote: The Lord's spirit tells us to just have compassion and help where help is needed.
Yes, it's true... It's amazing how life-giving the Lord's Spirit is and in us... have compassion and help... How many stories an examples by Jesus himself can we find where Jesus had compassion and helped? Would we expect that He would be saying anything different to us? " No my dear followers, I'll be compassionate and help out, but you guys, you exhort by pointing the finger, pointing out what's wrong, name call, condemn, judge, and tell people how to do it, and don't forget to do, do, do". I'm just not hearing that Faith and my spiritual ears and eyes are wide open.
Here's a wonderful example of "doing". I just traveled to the east coast, it's been a year since I've seen my family, all of which live here, I live on the West coast. I have very little time here, only a few days, and I want to see alot of people. My dear sister who's a Christian won't be able to fellowship with me on the day we are available. Do you know why? Her church is starting a bible study on that night, "the Purpose Driven Life".. So she's got to go and do that... ... busy doing, busy going, assembling with others in man's prescribed format.
Here she has a gift from God, ie a sister (blood) and a sister in Christ, along with the rest of my family.. her neices and nephews. Amazing... isn't it how "going" and "doing" become such a priority for believer's. I wonder if Jesus came if she'd cancel her study.. Essentially Jesus is coming, if he's living in me. So does it grieve me, yes, but I know He feels it too. I think He's probably saying, "hey, hey, I'm over here.. Zacceus, get ready, I'm coming to your house for dinner tonight." Well, sadly, she won't be there, there will be no breaking of bread, continuing in the apostle's doctrine, praying and sharing at her house tonight between us believer's in Christ. She'll be out chasing rainbows at the local assembling and she probably won't be experiencing Acts 2:42 there either, just a form or appearance of it, but not the real thing. Amazing, like I said... I'm not taking it personal.. I'm just sad that this is what our IC's and Pastors are teaching there spectators and then the spectator's just sit there and eat and drink in all that they are fed..
So, we'll not visit and maybe next year we'll spend time in true koinonia, if not next year then maybe someday when she understands "being" in Him.
quote:Truelove writes: I on the otherhand saw, "gathering in some premeditated and ordained format" was also confidentally pitted against "being" and that without a scintilla of evidence.
quote:Paul, under the authority of Jesus, wrote in 1 Cor 14: When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
So then you're asserting that these meetings were UNpremeditated and UNordained in format? Why would Paul enjoin Titus to set certain things in order, ACCORDING TO A PREVIOUSLY AGREED UPON ARRANGEMENT? Titus 1. Why didn't he just tell the new Christians in Crete to roll their own church, reinvent the church wheel according to their own preferences, forget about any how, what, when, where and just "be the church?"
It was you, TRUELOVE, who wrote "Please, please, people if your going to tell people that they should meet a certain way, then be specific, and back it up with Scripture, otherwise your not saying anything of any substance."
So once more, where is the scripture which teaches us to "be the church" AS OPPOSED TO GOING TO CHURCH MEETINGS OR MEETING IN A CERTAIN WAY OR IN DOING? THIS IS THE SPECIFIC CONTEXT WHICH YOU AND FAITH USED THE EXPRESSION in the above posts and in the original thread. And here. Can you just stick to THESE contexts for the present and supply the relavent biblical texts where such comparisons are made? I am starting to doubt that they exist.
Faith, the quote from Wayne Jacobson and the definiton of church advanced by Truelove, just above, indicated that church was (but not limited to, of course) one person. But it's a corporate term, referring to a group - always. If we cannot agree upon the basic meanings of basic words, we'll just become another tower of Babel and folks will (continue to) regard us as kooks.
Why, btw, does your idea of church, in all the minutia of how things ought to be, not constitute a dreadful "system" any less than and just a real as anyone else's dreadful "system?"
quote:So once more, where is the scripture which teaches us to "be the church" AS OPPOSED TO GOING TO CHURCH MEETINGS OR MEETING IN A CERTAIN WAY OR IN DOING?
This is going round and round as I might ask where are the scriptures that state meeting or doing?
Jesus and the disciples or apostles all taught much about how to live. The main thrust of the entire bible, including the OT is Christ, the cross, the resurrection, the gospel of the kingdom and how we follow Christ. (I believe this is the apostle’s doctrine, will share study on this later.) The amount of space given explaining exactly what to do to meet with a large group are few to the many passages given explaining what being in Christ means. The passages given so far in Cor. Were corrections of wrong things being done at meetings not exact rules for every meeting. No one has yet to show exactly how often or were or how many so why continue asking us when you have yet to show your view from scripture and have ignored Christ’s statement to the woman that we now worship in spirit and truth instead of at a temple or mount on a certain day. Being in Christ has nothing to do with how many meetings you go to. It has all to do with how you respond to everything everyday in life. It has to do with having Christ in you and your actions will follow the new ways Christ taught.
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. John 14:20 ; John 15:4
Many hc ers speak of relational aspects of meeting in small groups. And yet many seek to join these small relational groups or families into big groups very much like what they left. Doesn't make sense to me. I think this is why so many hc’s fail. They have some manmade ideal of what church is that just doesn’t work. So, they give up like the one’s in the parable of the sower. What is more confounding is the desire for relational ties with each other; but no emphasis on our relation with Christ. I think scripture teaches that if we have the relational experience with Christ, it will affect our relations with others both of the faith and not. Let's not put the cart before the horse. First have a relation with Christ, then others, then possibly even more as the Lord presents opportunities.
It is when we try to build the church ourselves according to our standards that it fails. Christ’s church always stands regardless of our failures. All we need to do is remain faithful to him in all and he is there and works out every detail. BTW, this is the thing that is hard. In our trials, it is hard to remain in the faith; but we must look beyond the trial to the final purpose of Christ, even though we may not see it yet. Like Job and David, etc. in the midst of trial and depression and hopelessness, we must continue to believe. That is where our hope is, not is doing some meeting stuff a certain way.
quote:Why, btw, does your idea of church, in all its minutia, not constitute a dreadful "system" any less than and just a real as anyone else's dreadful "system?"
Because I don't insist or try to get others to worship the way I do. I only encourage the others who understand it. I don’t have a system, the Lord does. I don't try to impose my way on you or feel your way is wrong for you; neither is my way wrong for me. I do not judge you for your way of thinking. You serve the Lord one way; I serve the Lord another. All I ask of those who disagree is that we agree to disagree without condemning each other. We are free in Christ.
quote:Faith, the quote from Wayne Jacobson and the definiton of church advanced by Truelove, just above, indicated that church was (but not limited to, of course) one person. But it's a corporate term, referring to a group - always. If we cannot agree upon the basic meanings of basic words, we'll just become another tower of Babel and folks will (continue to) regard us as kooks.
PTL if they do regard me as a kook!
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
BTW, we can’t become a tower of Babel if we are in Christ even though we don’t all agree on everything at the present. Christ’s house is not divided; but we don’t all understand ( we see through a dark glass) and are still scattered in the world until the final gathering to Christ to receive our rewards. While we may seem divided, those in Christ are united in Christ regardless of our petty differences that we see so important. When our eyes are incorruptible and that dark glass is gone, we will see how silly and petty our differences are.
Many just like the denominations say if he isn’t just like me and doing just like me then he is wrong ,using the passages in Matt. 12 and Luke 11 as proof. However, we must note it is not those who don’t follow us ;but those who don’t follow Christ, who are against him. Before we can use those passages, we must be following Christ 100%. I have yet to know anyone like that in this life.
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
I note Christ spoke of those who did things a bit differently in Luke 9 and who did not follow the disciples; but evidently followed him. He said those not against us are for us. What a profound statement. Thus, why do we so often feel those who do things a bit different are against us? I must ask what was it that this person did not follow with the disciples? Did he not meet with them? Did he have some custom different than them? What was it? Obviously, he was the Lord’s servant by the Lord’s reply. Let us not judge the master’s workers by our own petty requirements.
Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Grammatically speaking, is it any more correct to say being the church or doing church? They are new phrases understood by today’s people. Maybe even in different ways according to your own personal perspective.
One last point from my perspective, one who says they are the church or we are to be the church is very similar to saying I am American. As one who lives in and was born in America, I am American. I am one person; but yet I am part of a group of others who were also born and live in America and others who became American by becoming citizens. So there are many who are American; but I can say I am without excluding the others who are also.
Church refers to people who live in Christ, who were born into the kingdom of God by Christ. Each can say they are the church without excluding the others who are also the church. The church is a group of born again people. It is not a physical meeting of people at a certain place, at a certain time on a certain day. We are the church regardless of where we are or who we are with. We are still the church even if we are in the world around unbelievers. It is who we are. It has nothing to do with the physical meeting of others who are also the church. It is true the church can meet in groups; but they are still the church when alone. The church is referred to as the small flock and a scattered flock showing they are not always together in a meeting or physical group. I think this is a very picky definition to say the church always refers to the whole church as a large group meeting and excludes individuals from being the church. However, you are certainly welcome to the opposite opinion if you so desire.
IMO
truelove
posted
DAnderson wrote: So then you're asserting that these meetings were UNpremeditated and UNordained in format? TrueLove: Yes, I am asserting that they were unordained in format, but some were possibly planned as some were spontaneous.
DA:Why would Paul enjoin Titus to set certain things in order, ACCORDING TO A PREVIOUSLY AGREED UPON ARRANGEMENT? Titus 1. TL:According to Titus 1 - holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. Why? Scripture says, "in order to silence those who were empty talkers and deceivers who were upsetting whole families....not churches, but families... who were teaching things they shouldn't be teaching.
DA: Why didn't he just tell the new Christians in Crete to roll their own church, reinvent the church wheel according to their own preferences, forget about any how, what, when, where and just "be the church?" TL: He didn't have to, Jesus did that when he did away with the old covenant and he put the temple of God inside individuals who believed in Him as opposed to a building at a certain place built by the hands of men and He wrote the law on their hearts. I think that He established that pretty clearly to them and there was no need to repeat it, it was already in place. Paul was just trying to tackle the problem of bad teachers and deceiver's who were probably going from house to house and upsetting whole families. His idea to appoint elders was a great provision for that purpose.. Elders, men who were older and had been walking with the Lord longer, those who could be there to help all those families in their households who were being upset by wrong teachings and needed to be guided as needed when those things happened. When I get sick I'm glad I can go to a doctor. When they had problems they could go to a person who was further along in their walk with God and they might have know just who he was since he had been appointed.. I think Jesus was that for the disciples, as Paul was that for Timothy..
DA:It was you, TRUELOVE, who wrote "Please, please, people if your going to tell people that they should meet a certain way, then be specific, and back it up with Scripture, otherwise your not saying anything of any substance."
TL: Yes, it was me who said that and I firmly believe that still and I honestly think that Paul would agree with it too. I do think Scriptures are the standard for our choice of beliefs. That has not changed since I wrote that.
DA: So once more, where is the scripture which teaches us to "be the church" TL: Well I think that most of the bible, especially Proverbs, Psalms, and all of the New Testament teach us how to "be". I have decided that because I have found that there are many different definitions for church that I will not use the English word church with those who have a difference of opinion about that so as to avoid unneccessary disputing. So, when I go back to the Greek word that church came from which is ekklesia I find the definiton being it is a believer in Christ.. So, how can I be the ekklesia? Well when I was saved I became the Ekklesia, and to be is synonymous with I am... in referring to ekklesia.. Now, while I am ekklesia then to be it, is to be who I am now in Christ.. I am able as I am "being" the ekklesia to have outward manifestations of being as I am led by the Holy Spirit on a moment to moment basis as I abide in Him....
DA: And here. Can you just stick to THESE contexts for the present and supply the relavent biblical texts where such comparisons are made? I am starting to doubt that they exist. TL: Every Scripture in the bible is relevant and will have some part in my understanding the "being" in ekklesia.. as always led by the Holy Spirit.
DA: Faith, the quote from Wayne Jacobson and the definiton of church advanced by Truelove, just above, indicated that church was (but not limited to, of course) one person. TL; Yes, that's right. One and many... Like the Trinity, all individually one, with their own functions, but together in one; individual and corporate, but not always functioning corporately. I know this is a hard concept to get about "being" the ekklesia and it being individual and corporate. It wasn't until my 20th year of following Christ that I understood this myself. Having the opposite mindset from the IC's I was taught by it really took a supernatural intervention, such as a revelation, where the scales were removed from my eyes. It seems you are struggling with this concept because you keep coming back to it, and I think Faith and I have tried to explain it to you in so many ways, maybe you are just trying so hard to understand it, but only with your mind, I really think that you should just get in prayer and ask God to help you understand it with the eyes of your heart. I am pretty convinced of what I believe, not to long ago the scales that were blocking my understanding were removed from my own eyes and I need not convince you, but because you are a brother in the Body of believer's I continue to bare with you on this, but DAnderson I appeal to you to just put it in prayer and seek Father on this matter and I truly believe He will reveal it to you in a way that you can understand what "being" the ekklesia truly means. DA: But it's a corporate term, referring to a group - always. TL: I realize that you are confident to say that church is a corporate term always. That's quite a strong statement, I'm sorry but I don't understand the Scriptures the way you do, .. so you must be convinced in your own mind, as I am in mine. I believe there are many believer's and they make up the Body of Believer's in Christ, but I'm not led to believe that means that there is no significance to the individual believer's "being" the ekklesia, apart from others corporately. .
DA: If we cannot agree upon the basic meanings of basic words, we'll just become another tower of Babel and folks will (continue to) regard us as kooks. TL: I'm not in agreement that we look like kooks because we all don't believe that church means the same thing or that "being" or "going" are not synonymous. I think we do a fine job of looking like kooks when we debate something to death or as Faith said, " go round and round" on an issue until we get dizzy. But, if this is a major concern for you, then you might want to keep on persuing your own understanding of being the ekklesia by other means outside of this cafe, so as not to have onlookers think we are kooks...IMO
DA: Why, btw, does your idea of church, in all the minutia of how things ought to be, not constitute a dreadful "system" any less than and just a real as anyone else's dreadful "system?" TL: Oh, it probably does constitute a dreadful system..ie "being" the ekklesia. It requires more from us. It requires us to hear the Holy Spirit for ourselves, it requires for us to respond individually, it requires us to keep Jesus on the throne in our lives, it requires us to be active rather than passive and not spoon fed and spoon led by man in the flesh. Another reason: people need leaders, they often times feel safe when they follow someone who they think is an expert at it, they can sit back and just listen all the time. as the Jews wanted a King to lead as seen in the OT, so do people today.. It makes them feel safe and secure. "being" the ekklesia can be just as dreadful for some as "going" to church can be for others simply because they are fearful of feeling that they are alone..
DA: continue calmly and peace.. True Love; Blessings and peace be with you dear brother Anderson.. thank you so much for your continued interest in "being" the ekklesia. this little tug of war has truly blessed me in more ways that I could ever explain..
posted
Wow, I lost track of this topic and I was just able to get caught back up on what has been posted. Many good reads. I would like to throw my 2 cents into the pot. My prayer is that what I have to offer is the mind of Christ with regards to the matter or it is simply another opinion that is not worth the paper (or computer screen) that I am writing it on.
I do not personally see that "being the church" and "doing church" are at odds against each other. In fact, they quite complement each other in scripture and both are required. For instance, consider this scripture that has already been posted:
Heb 13:12 “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
or even more pertinent:
Hebrews 10:24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Both concepts are presented in this one scripture. The reason we gather (doing church) is so that we may be provoked to love and to good works (being the church). Thus, in our corporate gathering we receive the encouragement, strength, support, teaching, accountability, and love that we need to go out and impact the world in which we live with the strength of those around us who are called by the Lord's name as well and are part of His body. It is clear in my opinion that from the scriptures the Lord believes that we do need each other. No one lives in a vacuum and no one may live in Christ in a vacuum. I personally find it a rather scary proposition to try and be the church without doing church. The whole point of the doing is so that we can be!
To try and say that we only must "be the church" without "doing church" is to try and go it alone and to ignore the principles of church (eldership, Lord's supper, open-participatory gatherings, multi-generational, spiritual gifts, teaching/prophesy/tongues) that were outlined by Paul. Likewise, to say that we must only "do church" without "being the church" is to miss the entire point of gathering in the first place.
To conclude, these ideas are not pitted against each other but REQUIRE each other.
True being and true doing are not pitted against each other. It is the understanding of both that varies from individual to individual that creates a problem. The doing that is pitted against being is the type of doing that we left, doing for the sake of doing. If one truly is being they will do. The pitting comes in when some tell you your doing isn’t enough or isn’t right because it isn’t doing as they do. No one has said it is wrong to meet. It is wrong to demand meeting in certain ways other than scripture’s endorsement of when 2 or 3 gather, he is there. Nothing is wrong with meeting in larger groups and doing things the way scripture tells you to do them when you meet. Even 2 or 3 gathering mentions when but no command given as to when or how often when is.
As for being and doing requiring each other, to do in the proper manner requires that you be. Doing is a result of being. Nothing we do can make us be. Christ in us makes us be.
posted
You feel blessed, Truelove. Blessed by more self-validation? It appears that you have once more forfeited an opportunity to supply evidence for your 'church of one' and your 'just be the church at the expense of everything else' theories. Instead of simply dropping it or being honest about your deficit of proof, you whined that I was needlessly dragging things out. Why am I dragging it out anymore than you are?
Did you think everybody was gonna fall over backwards when you parroted your slogans? You seemed dissappointed from the start that your views didn't meet with unanimous approval. When I invited you to continue on and show us a better way, you got snippy with me, made threats, and declared that you weren't looking for a better way.
Now, do you really expect me to believe that your proof is somewhere "in Proverbs or Psalms" and yet you are unable to cite a single chapter or verse? Let's cut to the chase, today, OK? You were politely asked to show Biblical support for your slogans but you didn't deliver on it. You didn't because you couldn't. Slogans can never trump Scripture, particularly when they are being used to supplant it.
This exchange has served to demonstrate that there is zero justification for using the phrase "just be the church" in contradistinction from doing, going, or meeting (or having leaders). That is because the apostolic mandates of doing, going, and meeting (and having leaders) were never annulled. Being a totally unscriptural phrase, it would be impossible for me to care less how it is used as long as it didn't blatantly contradict other truths as in the earlier posts of this thread. If you are now trying to enlarge 'being' to mean the whole Bible, then it would necessarily have to include doing, going, and meeting - the very things you and Faith thought were in conflict with "being." They are not in conflict.
All this other stuff you are now straining to defend - being led of God, listening to the Spirit, becoming a servant, loving others, family ministry, etc, etc - was never disputed for a single moment by me or anyone else.
I have no desire to split hairs over fine points which have no bearing upon life. The big picture, though, is that these sayings are being taken by some as a warrant to detach themselves from all other Christians, go solo, and quit meeting. I don't buy it. These sayings are also frequently used as if they were infallible escape clauses, guaranteed to instantly shut down meaningful discussion of the particulars of doing, going, and meeting (and leadership) in the Kingdom of God. I don't buy that either.
Rather than a "tug of war" think of our conversations as a friendly tennis match, where vigorous opponents eventually approach the net together, accept the final score, shake hands, put their arm over the shoulder of the other and say: That was good, let's do it again sometime soon.
Ever see wrestlers slowly wear each other down, then just stop, embrace, sweat pouring down?
quote:True being and true doing are not pitted against each other. It is the understanding of both that varies from individual to individual that creates a problem.
But several days ago Faith wrote:
quote:Oh to do, to do, to do, to do. I threw away my round tuit a long time ago and just want to be.
Faith, are you suffering from selective amnesia, lately?
No, no, no, you didn't tell anybody how to do church but if they didn't do it your way, they were the IC "Whore of Babylon.''
Oh, OK, I get it now... I see how it works...
truelove
posted
Oh wow D Anderson...I really don't know how to respond. It's clear that you think ill will towards me and you've been very insulting to not only me, but to Faith. This topic seems to be a great source of difficulty for you and I hear the Holy Spirit telling me that I should bless you as one who persecutes others. God bless you D Anderson and may you find your way through these difficult thoughts and feelings that you have towards me. I'm afraid if I say anymore you would only twist and misconstrue the meanings of my words as I've seen most clearly in your last post. Like a lamb to the slaughter, I will silently go and I say May God bless you and may His peace be with you.. Living in the Kingdom and truly blessed.. True Love
True being and true doing are not pitted against each other. It is the understanding of both that varies from individual to individual that creates a problem.
But several days ago Faith wrote:
quote:
Oh to do, to do, to do, to do. I threw away my round tuit a long time ago and just want to be.
Faith, are you suffering from selective amnesia, lately?
No, no, no, you didn't tell anybody how to do church but if they didn't do it your way, they were the IC "Whore of Babylon.''
Oh, OK, I get it now... I see how it works...
No need to get huffy David. I am not suffering from amnesia. Notice I said true being and true doing; not the same thing as the doing for the sake of doing that is in the IC.
No I have never said everyone who doesn’t do things the way I do is of Babylon. However the systems of IC are of Babylon. There are a few in those systems who are real Christians and most of those finally leave those systems.
I must ask if you love the systems so much, why do you home church?
posted
I have been reading these posts with interest. Some I agree with, others I don't. However, Mr. Anderson, I think you crossed a line demanding proof and accusing TL of whining. Intellectual intercourse can be handled without slinging mud.
I may be wrong, but TL and Faith seem to be the type of people who are extremely sensitive to the working of the Spirit inside of them. It doesn't mean they abandon Scripture, only that it is difficult for those of us who may not be constructed that way to understand. We need to respect the differences. There were those who demanded proof from Jesus because their minds were closed. I don't want to make that mistake.
I think you owe an apology and I hope the discussion can continue.
posted
No one arrives here by accident. Very few leave except by their own choice. You all might want to check the User Agreement and see exactly what you agreed upon when you entered this forum in case you never bothered to before. Apparently, some never did. Just follow the FAQ link on any page.
Here, without cost, without advertising, and without nags for donations, we allow totally anonymous people from their undisclosed locations, using their fictitious names, to present their opinions in full. Then, In Berean fashion, we compare it to the Word. The highest court of appeal in this forum is the Word of God, authored by and NEVER in conflict with the Spirit of God nor his leading. Users are thus expected to have full justification from the Bible for their views. Interpretations will vary. So, I do NOT apologize for requiring such proof. If one doesn't have it, he or she should kindly acknowledge it or just say nothing rather than seek to become a presecuted martyr.
To anyone who found my use above of the word "whining" to be offensive and constituting "mud slinging," I can and I do apologize. I did, however, in the same post make it clear beyond any doubt that we should accept and embrace each other despite our differences at all times.
Topic Closed
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