Previously on another thread the question was asked, what are the apostle’s doctrines that must be followed precisely. I don’t remember anyone giving a precise answer. So here is what I found about the apostle’s doctrine. I also note that this doctrine is not a tradition.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Obviously, fellowship, breaking bread and praying are not the doctrines of the apostles. If they were the doctrines of the apostles being spoken of as some teach, it should say the apostles doctrine sof fellowship, breaking bread and prayer instead of and. Thus, grammar makes it clear they are added in addition to the apostles’s doctrine. So what is the apostle’s doctrine? Is it the same as Christ’s or is it something different? Is it one doctrine or many doctrines?
Jesus had a doctrine and it was considered a new doctrine by the Pharisee.
Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
His doctrine was and is the kingdom of God is at hand which he explained in the parable of the sower. In Mark 4, he described the kingdom of God and how one enters and how one bears fruit. He explains the gospel of the kingdom. The kingdom is in their midst is the message he gave. He taught those who do grow and bear fruit share the gospel of the kingdom so that others enter the kingdom. This doctrine has nothing to do with fellowship, bread or prayer as some seem to think. Nor could I find any place in which the apostles taught doctrines of fellowship, bread or prayer as the doctrine of the apostles. They taught the kingdom of God was at hand. They taught to repent and believe the gospel. That is the doctrine Christ taught and so did the apostles. It is the overall theme of the Bible. The OT pointing to Christ, the NT the realization of Christ.
I note the new doctrine Paul preached was the gospel : Jesus and him resurrected, the call of repentance, the promise of resurrection and judgment. Is this the same kingdom message Christ preached?
Acts 17:16-19 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. [17] Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. [18] Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. [19] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Acts 17:30-32 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: [31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. [32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Titus 2 gives examples of good works and doctrine. The doctrine is the doctrine of Jesus as our savior and the hope we have in his appearing. Good works are things those who believe the doctrine of Christ do; but not doctrines in and of themselves. Rather they were called a pattern of good works showing Christ likeness.
Titus 2:7-13 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, [8] Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. [9] Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; [10] Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. [11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
The passage tells us to obey our rulers, and not be brawlers, foolish, hateful, etc. However I don’t think we could say these things were the doctrine of the apostles; but rather a way of life for those who follow the gospel doctrine of Christ and him raised.
Hebrews 6 shows us the doctrine of Christ is the main doctrine but tells us to go on unto perfection. Once we have believed those things we are to go on, to move ahead and grow in Christ. If we believed the doctrine of Christ, then we have Christ in us , to use us to do his works; and thus, we need not make a list of do’s and don’t’s , for the ability to know what to do comes from our Christ filled hearts.
Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Again in 2 John we see the doctrine of Christ as the test of who is God’s and who is not. I feel this must be the doctrine of the apostle’s that was spoken of.
2 John 1:9-10 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [10] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Because Christ and his disciples or apostles went about preaching the kingdom: Jesus and the cross, which is considered foolishness by many, that is what we are to share with others. That is the doctrine they taught. The early church was a word of mouth movement. Is it any different today? Once the people believed the gospel and entered into Christ and the kingdom, they had no need of men to teach them doctrine for the Holy Spirit was their teacher. Their hearts told them what to do. Love. Love is a simple doctrine but men tend to complicate it. You only love others if you do it this way, they say. The Lord however said his yoke was easy and his burden light and we would find rest for our souls in him.
Matthew 11:29-30 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
My prayer and hope is that each of you find that rest.
BTW, I do not mean to imply there is anything wrong with fellowship, breaking of bread,, and prayers. I just wanted to point out that they are not specifically the Apostle’s doctrine. I also notice no command as to how often, where or with how many these things are done.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I am wondering if this was opened to discuss doctrines or traditions? I thought the original question was about traditions. Doctrines are teachings and the Apostles doctrines would have been their teachings about Christ. That would include all of their writings, would it not?
Now there were also some traditions. Jesus and the Apostles denounced the traditions of men. But they also upheld the traditions stemming from the Word of God. I'll touch on some of those.
Variations on the meanings of the words tradition, custom, habit, and pactice are all closely related. But tradition may better define something passed on while a custom may be more of something you do regularly, or habitually. I suppose you could make your families traditions your customs by practicing them yourself.
But since Jesus and his apostles both labored against the traditions of men, Paul cannot here be talking about now holding onto traditions. He must be instructing them to follow in his footsteps as he has done in other epistles. The problem with traditions is that they tend to limit a persons freedom in Christ by creating the illusion of security which yields complacency and growth is stifled. Probably a reason for the stagnation we see so prevalent today.
In the KJV, the word tradition is used in the good sense only twice and both of those appear in 2 Thes. The context is the second coming of Christ. It seems many were expecting the Lord to return any day. I can imagine they were abuzz with excitement and were neglecting duty. So Paul reminds them that certain things must happen first before the Lord can come and admonishes them to return to work, to not become weary in well-doing, to follow his own example of diligence in temporal matters while laboring with untiring zeal in the cause of Christ. Essentially, he was rebuking those who stood around with no purpose. He reproved those who had given themselves up to sloth and aimless excitement, and directed that "with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."
Can we read anything else into this verse? I think all of the apostles writings could fall under this form of "traditions." Our "tradition" should be to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. That should be our only tradition--if that is the right word to use.
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Jeff, the original purpose of this thread was for me to find what others were calling the Apostle’s traditions and doctrines that were connected to how we worship, meet, etc. If I remember correctly, some were implying that the traditions were breaking bread, praying, and things mentioned in Cor. Like singing, doing things orderly, etc. and also having to meet in large groups, ignoring the many times people met in smaller groups in the scriptures. They seemed to be saying ,since I worship differently from the customary, I was breaking the commanded traditions. Obviously, I wanted to know just what the commanded traditions were.
Back to the passage mentioned in the other thread by David, 2 Thes. 2:15. I looked both forward and now back in the book to see what the traditions were that they were to hold to. The word for tradition means a teaching passed on and thus could include doctrine. Traditions are not the same as customs, which are more of a habit that a teaching.
In going back in the book, I see the error Paul was correcting was their ideas about the return of the Lord and the day of the Lord. He made sure to correct them and show the Lord would come before judgment and wrath. He also reminded them that a falling away would occur first. And then they were reminded to hold fast to the true teachngs. I believe this would include the teachings of Christ as savior, living in Christ and him in them, and how the resurrection would occur (as they had some errors with this part) and other things as well. I remember there were those who taught there was to be no resurrection. So I think this passage specifically deals with holding fast to correct teaching and absolutely nothing to do with how to behave at meetings especially according to custom.
Here is an article I’d like to share that explains much of how I understand what it is I am to do if I follow Christ. Many do not understand and look at the outward appearance and think I do nothing because I don’t do things the customary way men do them. I seek to be like Mary while many push me to be like Martha so they can see just what I am doing. Can you understand this concept? When we become like Mary, we become free in Christ to focus on him and not the customary stuff.
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Interesting article which solves nothing. I noticed regarding the head covering the scriptue was quoted as, “If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice — nor do the churches of God” (1Co 11:16 ). I don’t know what version they used but the KJV says “But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God” Also the Greek Interlinear says, “ But if anyone thinks contentious to be, we such custom have not, nor the assemblies of God.”
Therefore the custom of head covering will continue to be debated until all use the same scriptures. Personally, I believe one should go with their conscience on things like this. I won’t make you take off your covering or be offended if you wear it, if you don’t make me wear one. Christ is my head. He covered my head with hair. I will be accountable to him for what I do.
Again the Lord’s supper is mentioned. People will understand the passages different ways. Therefore isn’t the communion with Christ and his people more important than which tradition you use to remember him? Again let’s not read things in and try to force others to conform to our ideas. There is absolutely no mention of observing weekly, daily, or yearly in these passages. I seriously think when we get stuck into a custom because we think it needs to be done that way, we are much like Martha and missing the whole point.
We are in the new covenant and God’s laws are in our hearts. Why don’t we listen?
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
He has given his people his spirit to all who believe to teach us, why don’t we listen?
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
We are to compare spiritual with spiritual not physical customs. Why don’t we look at the spiritual?
1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Can we search our hearts and see the demanding of customs not spelled out clearly causes strife and division? Can we look beyond these physical things we see and look to the heavenly unseen things? Can we really be free in Christ? Peace and freedom in Christ to you all.
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I agree with Faith in this sense only. That as soon as men spell out exactly how they think things should be done then the liberty Jesus purchased for us is compromised.
God is love and love is liberty. God created us with free moral agency--the right to choose. A believer can show his love toward God by his actions. But when men lay out in detail the course to follow the heart-felt leading to know and be with God is lost. People become consumed with following traditions rather than experiencing a loving response to God's love. I think we have removed the heart-felt gratitude and love from our society by establishing holidays. We give on cue rather than from the heart.
However, I don't think this same principle applies to regularly scheduled meetings--as long as each person is at liberty to attend or be absent. And I don't think the Lord would want it any other way. I think a weekly meeting for the assembly of all is an appropriate timeframe and I believe we have the support of God in this.
In the beginning God blessed the 7th day and hallowed it. At Sinai the Lord admonished Israel to remember that they had 6 days to labor but that no work was to be done on the 7th day. And Jesus made it clear that the Sabbath was made for man, and this included all men, not just the Jews.
So there is a weekly pattern which God established at Creation. It is marked off in 7 day increments, punctuated by the Sabbath day. There is no other reason for the 7-day weekly cycle apart from the fact that God established it. There is no celestial body to define the cycle.
Now for Faith's benefit I will include this scripture which establishes that we will continue to meet on the Sabbath day to worship God for all eternity.
Isa 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."
The context of this verse is the new heavens and new earth. So it refers to a time beyond this world as we know it. And it establishes the fact that God is a God of regularly scheduled meetings with his family. In fact, everything about God is organized, orderly, and on time.
Jesus' birth Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Antichrist's coming 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Jesus' Second Coming Act 3:20,21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The Judgement Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
And so many more!!
Yes, God is very orderly and appears to have everything schedule to happen on time. Now, do we then think he approves if we are lax with our time? No, we are to walk as he walked. But we are not to impose our will upon others or think to guide their conscience. Even God does not impose his will upon us and give freedom of conscience to every person. God is love and he does not accept forced obedience. He wants his creatures to have an intelligent knowledge of his character and choose to love and obey him from their heart.
Time is one talent which everyone has. Thus, we will be accountable for our time.
The purpose of this post was to illustrate that God is very orderly and has set times for things to happen--even corporate worship. Yet, no attempt is made to prevent the Holy Spirit from interrupting our course or for spontaneous worship. I simply wanted to establish that God has commanded us to remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy, as opposed to common. That day is very specific and demonstrates that God himself has established regularly scheduled meetings with His family. (I do believe the 7th day is the Sabbath day. That it is part of the Ten Commandments and as such will be binding upon us forever. That it is to be a joy and not a burden. And that men will be judged for trampling upon it just as they will be judged for lying. But everyone needs to be convinced in their own minds and to love the Lord foremost, else it will be impossible for them to call the Sabbath a delight. If you loved Thanksgiving but had to spend it with relatives you didn't like that could turn it into a very miserable day, couldn't it? But spending time with people you love makes any day enjoyable.)
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Did you not notice, Faith, that the guys (Paul & writer to Hebrews) you were quoting today are the very ones who were giving out the pesky how to's with respect to church meetings? Surely spiritual liberty, freedom, and laws written on the heart didn't anull those protocols unless these apostles were suffering from intellectual schizophrenia as they wrote. Not likely.
The apostolic traditions were simply their words and works as teachers and examples. When the issue came up, I quoted the text in which the church was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus the chief corner stone. Eph 2. If you remove the apostle's words and works from the NT there really isn't much left. As the biographers of Jesus, recorders of the early history, and conveyors of doctrine, we are, through the Spirit, quite indebted to their testimony. I didn't see any need to enlarge upon this theme then or now. I thought everyone understood it. Certainly, I didn't imply that the traditions were only contained in one NT letter.
1Thessalonians 1:5,6 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And YOU BECAME FOLLOWERS OF US and of the LORD...
The apostles were either the real deal or the biggest liars of all time.
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As I go on reading here on this thread or in several others of late, there seems to be an underlying theme emerging and that is the theme of acceptance of authority or refusal. Who decide what, when, how, why and where? Note that I wrote decide without the s at the end. Obediance is singuliar, whereas Church decision is communal. Yesterday, in the part of the world of thecnological communication where I hang out, the word authority came up and I wrote to answer:
"Self-managed" does not mean "unmanaged". It means the source of authority and policies is internal."
With:
It seems to me that we are moving on to define the freedom of expression, where meaning and value are genuinely growing within the expression of freedom's safety, feeding mutuality with care and wisdom!
So to keep up with the title "[cp] Re: New Member - community start-up", one way to formulate the question becomes, how does our freedom to care wisely for one another materialise so that the word community's evidence leads on the new member's start-up? Com-prac has its own nature of interests. I find that within the specifics, there is great feeding of the mutuality with respect and wisdom that relates to respect. The care part will come when creativity starts sweeping some members into joining their talents and interests to aleviate the stress that the sword of thecnology has to endure, on the front line of expertise, because of the entity of terror-anti-terror. My apologies to those who are already so involved with one another As opposed to remaining within the respect of limits where creativity has no access to be released from the nature of stress, the communal effect of overcoming those limits with the serenity of care amongst the members, manifests how the genius of inspiration-mutuality-creativity gets to accomplish sustainability by making poverty history, spreading Health-Education-Correction, by turning the "Sword" of technology into the "Pen" of technology, moving on against the many other plights of humanity. The wealth of the community lies in the speech of freedom where the freedom of speech can safely move creatively within our mutuality of care and wisdom! Happy holiday season! Benoit Couture
The people I was writing to are professional online facilitators of Knowledge Management". The opportunity that I always seek, is to move in the conversations in a way that by the time I am done writing, the meaning leaves the door open to only one interpretation where becomes manifest that:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."
By going on the way we do in these discussions, are we not missing out on the opportunity to build the Kingdom beyond tongue and words and into action and truth of what is on our communal plate, at this time in history?
-------------------- ...all blessings be with us all... Benoit Couture
quote:Now for Faith's benefit I will include this scripture which establishes that we will continue to meet on the Sabbath day to worship God for all eternity.
Isa 66:23 "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."
Thanks Jeff,
I would like to ask though, according to this passage if this really refers to meeting on the Sabbath day, is it referring to a monthly Sabbath (new moon to another) or to a weekly Sabbath or to both?
Isa. Is very symbolic much like Revelations and thus is this literal or not?
If we really are to worship on Saturday, why did Jesus tell the woman what he did? John 4:22-24
Also you stated:
quote:However, I don't think this same principle applies to regularly scheduled meetings--as long as each person is at liberty to attend or be absent. And I don't think the Lord would want it any other way. I think a weekly meeting for the assembly of all is an appropriate timeframe and I believe we have the support of God in this.
So why do many make a fuss because some choose to be absent from such meetings? Where is the liberty? There are many reasons one does not attend such meetings. The big fuss about having to is one reason not to.
quote:God is love and love is liberty. God created us with free moral agency--the right to choose. A believer can show his love toward God by his actions. But when men lay out in detail the course to follow the heart-felt leading to know and be with God is lost. People become consumed with following traditions rather than experiencing a loving response to God's love. I think we have removed the heart-felt gratitude and love from our society by establishing holidays. We give on cue rather than from the heart.
quote:we have no such custom--bible we have no customs--faith
I did not say that. The article posted by John and Jan used this version not me. I only included the quote from some version of the bible as given in the article. The scripture given in the article was:
“If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice — nor do the churches of God” (1Co 11:16
I noticed after I posted about this that if we followed this particular translation we would have no other practice to follow except covering the women’s heads. So obviously that translation can’t be right.
What I have been trying to say is that there were many ways or customs if you must call them as to how things were done at different times in different situations. We are not to call each one a commanded tradition. They are examples of how one can do things in certain situations not commands of how one must always do things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry to bring up the Sabbath and meetings again; but aren’t these the main things you guys are referring to as the Apostle’s traditions or customs.
The sabbath was ordained by God for rest. I don't remember seeing anything stating it's the day to have to worship. I think we worship everyday 24/7. Worship is who we are not what we do one day a week.
The early Christians did meet daily sometimes. I think there are a variety of ways the early Christians met. It wasn't always the same ole go to the church, sing, pray, listen,& tithe all on cue as is considered worship today.
Christ mentioned going to the synagoge on sabbath, as was his custom. Notice it was custom not command. He also was accused of breaking the law because of the other things he did on the sabbath like healing and picking corn which would be considered work. So must we follow the custom of going to church but ignore the other things he did?
Paul preached on the sabbath to Jews and Greeks who showed up. He also preached to the Gentiles at their temples on their day of worship. He preached all day into the next one Sat. eve and thus the idea of the preaching on the first day.
Families had churches. Couples mentored other people. The disciples often stayed with one family to mentor. Sometimes large groups did meet as in Corinthians. Sometimes the Lord met with only his close family of disciples. Sometimes he met in homes with families like Mary and Martha. Sometimes he preached in the field to evangelize. Sometimes he went to sinners homes. Sometimes he spoke with Pharisee present. Many times he or disciples spoke to people on the road as they walked or rode. He spoke so many times to so many people in various situations, sometimes he withdrew to the wilderness to be alone and away from the people.
So I believe there are many ways we can meet and they don't have to be the same old routine every week. I never found a command in the scripture that says, Thou shalt worship once a week in a large group to sing, pray, listen, and tithe.
Not that it is wrong to do those things. It is wrong to make them into men's customs and the only way to worship.
Another thing is the purpose of the church was not to meet every week with the same people hearing the same sermons over and over like the IC. The purpose of the church was to learn of Christ and then go out and tell someone else about him
So if you want to meet on Sat. go ahead it is not a sin. If you insist on meeting on Sun. go ahead it is not a sin ; but please do no call it the Lord’s Day, which is judgment day unless you refer to the fact that all days are the Lord’s.
Previously I have explained how one can have different seasons of meeting. Some times in small family groups, others in small groups of neighbors, friends, etc. and yes even other times of larger groups. I have explained how sometimes we can meet daily, weekly, monthly, yearly and yet still be regular. However each of these times must be based on where the Lord wants you at the time. Just as the Lord and the disciples had different ways of meeting at various times with different purposes, he can do the same in our lives. Unless we are open to it, we will miss the best opportunities like the Pharisee versus the good Samaritian or Jesus with Nicodemus. I noticed he came to Jesus by night so as not to be seen, I guess. Not your typical meeting. Would you do that or wouldn’t you say, hey we can talk at church once a week.
I do not say it is wrong to meet in large groups or set a certain time to do so. It is not wrong to do certain things. It is wrong to demand it of all people all the time!!!!!!!!!!! Meeting for the sake of meeting is wrong. There must be likemindedness. There is very little of that today.
As for the authority of men, I follow Jesus and I follow the disciples in as much as they followed Christ; but I do not have to do everything they did all the time. If I did, I would have to leave home and preach the gospel every single day somewhere and not as the opportunity arises. Are you guys really following the Apostle’s traditions? Are you going out? Are you really living the way they lived? Or aren’t you all comfy at home either staying home or going out to sing, pray, etc. once a week with others just like you?
As for coming under the authority of men like elders, the duty of the elders was to serve the people not be the bosses. One big difference I see is that in the scriptures, Christ appointed the Apostles who then appointed elders. Today I see men self appointing themselves in roles not given to them by God and thus will not come under their authority in spiritual matters. Scriptures tell me Christ is the head and also that my husband is the head of our family. It doesn’t tell me to come under self appointed bosses.
So the disciples met in the upper room often to have a big mac and coke. If I follow them, I have to meet upstairs and eat big macs and cokes because that is their example. Duh, couldn’t I meet downstairs sometimes and eat a pizza and pepsi? I feel it is so ironic that the hc came out of the ic because of the clergy/laity system and yet try to make their own hierarchy. That is why I do not meet with large groups of hc. This is a conversation I never figured on having with those in hc because I thought they understood. Guess I was wrong about that for the most part.
Well, this is going no where as no one seems to understand the freedom we do have to do things in various ways . Guess I can spend time better doing something else today.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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