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We have spent a good many years "in the ministry" (born again in 1972, came to Brazil 1977), serving the Lord in Brazil (few years in the US). We spent a number of those years gathering info on unreached people groups, working under a large organization, and had much contact with other missionaries, churches, and pastors. As such, I believe we have had some pretty good insight into the funtioning of many organizations and churches, both Brazilian and American.
We were often confused by the repeating negative events we witnessed both in churches and in "Christian organizations". Finally, the lights began to come on in some very specific areas.
First, I want to emphasize that most of the things we've seen (and still are seeing), are NOT (usually) due to deliberate deceit, or the actions of dishonest believers. On the contrary, the great majority of the people involved, are quite sincere and dedicated brothers and sisters in Christ. Their suffering and much of the confusion and hurt in and through today's modern churches, is actually quite simple to understand, and due to some of the following basic reasons:
1. Most churches and almost all "Christian organizations" have implimented a very unbiblical and humanistic "vertical authority" structure. 2. They have given that same "unbiblical vertical authority" to a very few individuals, then submitted to their exercise of that authority. 3. They have chosen to put most of their emphasis on "locations/structures", instead of "relationships/service".
I will not expand on these here yet, but later would like to attach a scriptural defense for their expression.
Because of the highly destructive nature of these three areas to the true church in our world today, Christianity in general has a very poor reputation for abuse and lack of integrity and relevance to the problems of today.
It is exactly for these reasons we have looked to God for His wisdom in avoiding at any cost the practise of these things in our outreach and "church planting". What a blessing to see the responsibility placed where it belongs: ON EACH INDIVIDUAL.
When the "assembly of believers" in NT times came together, each individual was responsible to share what he or she had been given by God (gifts, service, talents, wisdom, etc.), with their fellow believers. No one was "above" the others, no one was responsible to tell others what they HAD to do. Those with insight and wisdom (overseers) gave their input, but it was limited to "telling/sharing", not "deciding" or "making decisions for" others.
The true church is a living "organism", not "an organization", and unless we treat it as such, it will continue to self-destruct and injure the very ones composing it.
Last week I had access to high-speed Internet and reviewed your video trailers at your site. They are very well done. It must take a lot of planning and coordination on the part of the team to accomplish them. They were well organized and the video effects were great.
In light of your appreciation for teamwork, planning, and good organization with respect to this work I am a bit surprised to hear you speak negatively of organization in the church body. Even the simplest of organisms is a complex system of organized functions. But the body of Christ is an ever higher collection of organisms in the form of humans created after the likeness of God.
Perhaps you are not speaking negatively of organization within a body of believers when the effort is choreographed by the Holy Spirit but rather you oppose the hierarchical structure of the modern church which places the pastor where Christ alone should stand.
I enjoyed your post and hope to hear more about why churches fail. But which church are you speaking of. Those that call themselves church or Christ's true church? Or both? Personally, I think there are many who believe themselves to be part of Christ's church but are not and that is why they fail. And, I don't believe Christ's church meets at a particular location--be it a public building or a home. I think God's true body (church) is found everywhere and anywhere. In an IC, in an HC, in a hut, under a tree, in jail, wherever! I don't think location, in and of itself, EVER defines a person as a true follower of Christ.
quote:Originally posted by jqlogan: I am a bit surprised to hear you speak negatively of organization in the church body. Even the simplest of organisms is a complex system of organized functions. But the body of Christ is an ever higher collection of organisms in the form of humans created after the likeness of God.
This, jqlogan, is an example of flawed logic based on your current belief system. This sounds logical, but The Bible never got more complicated than: hand, eye, ear, bowel, mind, heart, foot, blood, etc. I don’t recall autoimmunity, cellular structure, protein bonding, electrical nerve response, DNA or atomic complexity being discussed.
The fact that we are called The Body of Christ does in no way insinuate that we should be micromanaged to death by each other. We are only to perform our given function, and do as The Head directs. Nothing more can be found here.
Sarmour, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I would add on to your list- a focus on large group non-participatory worship vs. participatory and relational gatherings of believers.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend who is planting a traditional church with her husband in our area about this topic. What is interesting (and I have heard these things from others before), is that they somewhat see these issues and attempt to make changes to address them while still keeping with the traditional IC model. For instance this couple believes in a congregationaly lead model to attempt to lessen the problems brought about by your first 2 points. I have gone to a "congregationally lead" church, and being involved in the leadership can attest that it doesn't change things much-it still opperates mostly in a top down manner. When we spoke of small, participatory, vs. large, non-participatory meetings she admitted that it is in small groups that people grow spiritually. That is why they wanted to work on a strong small groups ministry. My question to her was why then continue to focus on the large group when you know it is through the small that peaple grow. Her answer was because the small group isn't really "church".
Sarmour- please do share more with us about all of this!
Last week I had access to high-speed Internet and reviewed your video trailers at your site. They are very well done. It must take a lot of planning and coordination on the part of the team to accomplish them. They were well organized and the video effects were great.
In light of your appreciation for teamwork, planning, and good organization with respect to this work I am a bit surprised to hear you speak negatively of organization in the church body. Even the simplest of organisms is a complex system of organized functions. But the body of Christ is an ever higher collection of organisms in the form of humans created after the likeness of God.
Perhaps you are not speaking negatively of organization within a body of believers when the effort is choreographed by the Holy Spirit but rather you oppose the hierarchical structure of the modern church which places the pastor where Christ alone should stand.
I enjoyed your post and hope to hear more about why churches fail. But which church are you speaking of. Those that call themselves church or Christ's true church? Or both? Personally, I think there are many who believe themselves to be part of Christ's church but are not and that is why they fail. And, I don't believe Christ's church meets at a particular location--be it a public building or a home. I think God's true body (church) is found everywhere and anywhere. In an IC, in an HC, in a hut, under a tree, in jail, wherever! I don't think location, in and of itself, EVER defines a person as a true follower of Christ.
Thanks for your return and for your good words on our website/productions!
My post was not really a "railing against organization" per se, but a very limited observation focusing on a very specific TYPE of organizational methodology employed by most modern churches, that appears to me to be an error. As there are all degrees of "organization" even within any definition of that word, I can really only address generalities in such a limited post.
It is very clear from God's Word, and from His Creation, that God Himself is extremely highly organized! My words about "organization" in no way were meant to imply that organization is of itself "evil or bad". I was opening a discussion of the manners in which many (not all of course) members of the true church (composed of all believers everywhere and through all history if you wish), has applied a very specific type of organization. I have refered to that as "vertical organization" and I believe it is extremely detrimental to the well-being and function of God's living church at ANY time in history, and very much so today.
I started a book on this subject, but just do not have the time to finish it, but I'll try to condense my thoughts into something somewhat more coherent:
What appears to be true throughout the history of both the ancient and especially the modern "church"
(defined more precisely by and ANY assembly of believers, meeting together ANYWHERE, for the express purpose of thanksgiving/rememberence of Christ's death, burial, resurrection and RETURN (eucharistia), the teaching of God's Word (collective edification) and prayer)
is the damage caused by the system I have expressed as "vertical organization" to this living assembly.
In the simplest sense, what I'm trying to visualize as "vertical", is your typical organizational chart: president on top, vice-presidents under him, treasurer/whatever underneath them, etc etc. At the bottom of the chart are the peons/workers.
This exact structure has been employed since ancient times and is used for governments, companies, and organizations (both secular and "religious"). If we examine the Scriptures carefully, we note the same hiarchical systems used throughout Biblical history, even in ancient Israel.
In the vertical organization, the "head" (president) is the initiator or (computer CPU) guide for all action. All members are answerable to him and he is expected to guide and direct all the levels below his position. Any new action or direction is normally expected to begin with him.
Unfortunately, that is the current organization of most modern churchs (any way you wish to define it). The pastor/s (or "elders", if you will) are tacitly, or openly, viewed as positionally "above" the flock. Mouth service is given to them being "servants of the Body", but the truth is, they are usually the ones being served, not serving. In fact, if you treated them like "servants", they would usually be highly offended! They are the leaders!
It is exactly the way sinful mankind operates and thinks, and the way most churches do as well. We have fallen prey to this world's system of thought and action and the church is very clearly a major victim.
Due to a lack of time with fully develop these thoughts, I want to just open the discussion with a quick comparison to the picture of the mechanism of a pocket watch:
When we look at a picture of a pocket watch with it's back opened, we see many different sizes of gears. Some are very large and touch many other gears, but some are quite tiny and only touch one or two others. Here is a question to ponder:
Which gear is most important?
If you remove ANY gear, the watch stops, so which is most important? It is clear: they are ALL equally important for the proper function of that watch.
This is exactly what I term "horizontal organization". Christ is the HEAD, not some president! We are all different parts in His BODY. Function is definitely important, as is organization. However, all the parts answer to the same HEAD (power source). All the gears (members) have different functions and purposes (God given gifts) within the Body.
This totally changes our viewpoint of God's church and our places within it. If I see myself as having received a function touching many other gears (members), yet absolutely not "above" the other gears in authority or position, I will view myself as Christ views us. I will see myself as having both the need for all the other gears, and for obeying the Head together with them.
That large gear could maybe represent the pastors/teacher/elders/leadership. Their need to keep in close contact with the Head is just as great as the smallest gear in contact with them. If ANY gear fails, the watch is damaged, giving wrong signals, or stops.
Vertical organizatonal systems inherently do not allow the "lower layers" to initiate action or call into accountability the "higher" levels. In the true church of Jesus Christ, it should NEVER be so, for our structure is NOT vertical!
If we have a horizontal view of our true position, and hold Christ as our true Head (not some pastors, elders or leaders or any other), then we can function correctly, transparently and humbly as "members one of another, and servants of all". If we are indeed "choreographed" by God's Holy Spirit, we will accomplich what HE WANTS, not what we want. That implies patience, humility, and servanthood, not lack of organization. He can organize us how He pleases, to accomplish whatever is His desire. Like an amoeba (sorry for that comparison), the true church can assume whatever shape is needed by the HEAD to fulfil His purposes.
That's all I have time for. Hope it's not too disjointed.
This is really good stuff! Thank you for sharing it! It helps in understanding that organization is not bad, but rather the form it takes that can be harmful, and unbiblial.
Organization must be horizontal and functional in nature- yes, yes!!!
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