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The issue of the possibility of bitterness among "house churchers" comes up here from time to time, so I thought I'd start a topic: What is the right attitude? How can we tell if we have it? How do we help those who have baggage through to a place of joyful advocacy of the Kingdom of God, instead of angry rejection of what they (we) perceive of years of wasted effort?
(For the sake of the discussion, I will ignore the fact that bitterness is certainly not the sole domain of people who join house church )
As for me, I have no reason to be bitter. I loved church! I was loved, my talents were appreciated and a good time was had by all. I am just repentant, because enjoying myself, feeling good and getting adulation for how talented and helpful I am is simply not what Following Jesus is about!
There are regrets, especially for all the times that I KNEW that the practices we were living and promoting contradicted the plain simplicity of the Word of God, and I submerged my own judgment to follow after leaders instead. The "manipulative techniques" I allowed myself to use now make me think of when I read about "The Cults" and I couldn't really see how what we were doing was very different. I practiced "thought cancellation" because I couldn't handle the intellectual dissonance it represented: for example "love bombardment"... "requiring loyalty to the group over family loyalty"... "requiring intellectual acquiescence instead of personal responsibility..." Ouch!
I now see that "Living a New Life" of total immersion in the Kingdom of God and my community in daily IS very different from other religions and cults. The life Jesus lived was very different from that of the religious people of his day. The life he called people to join in required no religious observances, but only that every moment be sacred because of the new inward orientation of knowing "The Kingdom of God is Within You!"
Those are some of my thoughts about the difference between being bitter and being repentant. I may sometimes sound angry, but really it is the same zeal as when I'm trying to share the gospel. I have to fight the urge to jump up and down and say, "Why don't you see what I see???"
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You do not come across to me as bitter, Laurie Ann. But then, I am not the best judge of character... Just kiddin... If you say you are not, I accept that but had never thought otherwise.
Most of us wonder, now and then why others don't see it our way. Later, we are glad they didn't.
Where does righteous anger fit into your view of things? I feel it, myself, sometimes but seldom express it. Most of my anger results when my own interests are threatened - not the kingdom of God.
Anyhow, I think I detect less bitterness in the house church community than in times past. At least, I receive less complaints about it.
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Hey Laurie Ann, I wrestled with bitterness toward The Lord, and toward those who offended me. I confronted the offenders, and got no where ...so I remit their sins to them and to The Lord's judgment. You know, the dust off thing...
I guess that has really helped me more than anything, knowing I can't hold bitterness in my heart, but I also don't have to offer "blanket forgiveness" either. I also can't (and no longer desire to) kick everyone's hind-parts that needs kicking. I'm working to shut the cop-in-me down.
I still have a pet peeve though. It's those who make blanket statements like, "Those people [doing that thing that I'm not doing] are just operating in the flesh, bitterness, pride..." the list goes on. Maybe that's the "righteous anger" you are talking about D. Anderson, but I don't really think so. I'm just sick of being assaulted by others ignorance! If Paul can get fed up, so can I!
Let's look at this type of statement as a statement made in a courtroom. First, a blanket statement: "People who are out there [let's use marching against abortion as an example] are just doing something in the flesh. God's in control, and whatever is going to happen will. They should just pray."
ASK THESE QUESTIONS: Have you met every person marching? Have you talked with them personally? Where did you get that information? Has God revealed this to you? Is He not powerful enough to reveal it to them? Do you know everyone's calling? How do you know they are not called to do what they are doing?
Simple questions, simple rebuttal. Idiotic case dismissed.
I recently got on a website that was lambasting a certain Christian ministry. Their website title included the word "Evidence," but there was nothing there that even closely resembled evidence! How funny! I was so tempted to email them and punch holes all in their "case," but that would have been to help them make it stronger. It's easy to build a case if you know what you are doing, and have your facts strait.
Ever want to just say, "Believe what you want to, just keep your stupidity to yourself!"
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Yes- this is something I have thought a lot about. How to promote house church without putting others down, or comming accross as either elitist or bitter. I really am not bitter towards the IC- I just get excited to see people become a part of really living "the Way", or as Laurie Ann put it living out the kingdom of God within us!
I think Mathew brings up a good point about people being turned off by blanket statements, but at the same time, to help people to see things in "big picture" terms, isn't a certain amount of generalizing necisary? Even using the term IC (which is an attempt to generalize the difference between church as a static, heirarchical institution, vs. an organic, multiplying movement) is a turn off to many. I have found that using that term makes me sound bitter and elitist- which is not my intention at all!
Another thing I have thought about is how much I should encourage or discourage what I see as simple church being done, at least in part, through IC small group ministries, and para church organizations. It sounds as if Rich ad June actively encourage this a lot in thier community. I, myself, became a christian in college through a parachurch organization, where I then experienced rapid spiritual growth through participatory gatherings of believers. Within a year of becoming a christian I was sharing my faith and leading bible studies regularly, which was not unussual amoung the group that I was a part of. This was quite a change from the party girl who was especially known for her talent with a beer bong, that I was my freshman year. I think that this is why, after graduating from college, and transitioning to traditional church, the IC just never sat well with me. I just didn't see the power of God that had changed my life- and others lives around me.
All of this is just me talking, and slowly trying to make sense of this all. I am so thankful to have you all as an avenue to do so!!!
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Hey JeanneH, good to talk to you again. It's been a while!
The best experience I have ever had working [for] The Lord was in a "traditional" church, working with children.
I too don't want to become one "of those people" who thinks only their way of "doing church" is correct.
The truth is, I got back into church (for a time) because I ran into a family that came across just that way! I saw myself heading in the same direction and didn't want to go there.
I then came to the conclusion that I couldn't do traditional church either! Then I came here... only because I Googled "home church" and there is a home church "finder" of sorts here. I then saw the forum and began reading. I simply saw that there were other like minded folks here, so I got on and began learning. It has been fun!
I guess what I'm saying is that I have been involved heavily in church, then I got into home church ...and neither is perfect. So, I'm adapting a more "stay-away-from-all-religion" stance and going for a "surround-myself-with-like-minded-believers" stance. So far it is working GREAT!!! The other day the "men's meeting" was canceled, and one of the men called to let me know. The evening turned into a "come on over here and just hang out" night. We guys played a networked video game, the children played together, and the 2 ladies hung out ...and one (that just had a baby) even took a whirlpool bath in our tub. Now that's [church]!
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I have been just reading and learning. And, that's the word! Refreshing. The interesting thing is, that there are several churches right across the road from where I now live. One is the denomination I was raised in. The fact that I won't walk across the street to go there ...says everything!!!
I guess I'm finding out that freedom is not found in knowledge, but actions.
quote: The other day the "men's meeting" was canceled, and one of the men called to let me know. The evening turned into a "come on over here and just hang out" night. We guys played a networked video game, the children played together, and the 2 ladies hung out ...and one (that just had a baby) even took a whirlpool bath in our tub. Now that's [church]!
Is this what they mean when they speak of esteeming every day alike? Hummm? I haven't appreciated just how "churchie" my atheist neighbors really are. They are some of the nicest, most hospitable, and helpful people you could meet. Perhaps it is as Oprah contends. There are multiple ways. Or perhaps Michael Jackson is correct. We can make the world a better place if we focus on the man in the mirror and ask him to change his ways. Is this where we have ended up?
BTW, why so negative toward the word religion? The book of James seems to be the only place where the word religion is used in positive tones. There may be a negative application for the word, yet, there is a pure and undefiled religion which pertains to worship of God.
from: MSN Encarta
Definition:
1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
Note: the 3rd definition could be humanism or spirituality which in truth excludes the God of the Bible but entertains the idea of a god or supernatural power which almost always resolves to self.
BTW, if I were wanting to be contentious I would argue that freedom begins with knowledge. But a special knowledge--a knowledge of truth. After all, we act on our faith and faith stems from knowing. Therefore, our life is but a reflection of what we know, or believe, to be true. What Michael has actually said is that he is coming to know (or understand) that freedom is not found in knowing but doing. So although he experiences the freedom of his knowing by doing, yet if not for the knowing would there be the doing in such a free way?
There is nothing wrong with the words religion and knowledge if used correctly and appropriately?
Your religion is showing. If you check that word "religion" in the Greek, it is actually the word "ritual" ...and in context it is ACTIONS being described throughout. Check it out for yourself. No actions, and you have vain ritual [head knowledge]! This stuff isn't that hard, jim.
Here is what I actually said. "I guess I'm finding out that freedom is not found in knowledge, but actions."
Oh, and one more thing... I totally disagree with you. However, that in no way make you wrong or incorrect (for you). It just means you are not where I am, and that's just fine with me! Be blessed!!!
No action = vain ritual is correct. But hopefully the ritual of our "religion" is manifested in pure and undefiled worship of God. Paul instructed us to mimic him. We are to walk as Christ walked. A light, letting our good works show to glorify God. Don't we want our religion to show? You're right. This isn't hard.
But then you went on to say, "I totally disagree with you. However, that in no way make you wrong or incorrect (for you)." Then is Oprah correct? Are there many ways? Is truth relative? Why would I not be wrong if you are correct? I can't reconcile this with my belief that truth is absolute. Now it's hard again because it has been confused.
BTW, I am envious of the role you played with children in traditional church. I have desired to involve myself with kids but having none of my own tends to isolate me. I guess I just can't relate well.
Getting back on topic. Being someone who is currently sitting on the other side of the fence and privy to postings there tends to be a bitterness which pops up time and again. The way some view the word religion is just one example. It is so often spoken of in negative tones as if it were something to be avoided. In reality, pure and undefiled religion is good. What is not good is vain ritual, as Matthew pointed out. So why don't we clarify things and use the phrase "vain religion" instead of the single word religion as if in a general sense?
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So we agree, it isn't hard. So, what have you been up to, to let your light shine? I had the wonderful experience (I spoke about above) of having one of the "leaders" of our home fellowship over for a relaxing evening of fun and fellowship. His wife got to treat herself to a whirlpool bath, and a much needed break from her three children.
They are also hosting a family (add two more children) in there home, and they got a break from that as well. They also eyed our swimming pool, and are looking forward to it warming up, so they can come over and swim. Now that's ministry!!!
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Well, of course I have my social times but though I love kids I find I relate better to elderly people. So I visit and help five erderly widows, sometimes with food, sometimes money, sometimes chores, sometimes just sympathy and kind words.
Speaking very frankly, I find I have less and less time for socializing. I have golfed maybe three times in 7 years and I used to golf weekly. In fact, I haven't been on vacation since the 1980's. I did go out of town for two work-related conferences and that was a type of mini-vacation. I am finding that I have so much to do for myself and others that I don't have time for amusements. What can be done?
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Well, as I have been so wisely counseled by Laurie Ann and JeanneH, simplify! If you are not doing so great yourself, then how much can you "minister" to others? Even Jesus spent time away, just visiting with his Dad.
I think you once advised me to get some sun. I just came back in as a matter of fact, and I'm doing that every day now. Maybe there are some elderly folks that would enjoy coming into your home for a visit? I hear a lot of them don't get out much. How about helping some of them with their computers? My wife says that many of them would love to email and such, but are afraide to try.
Besides, you're smart, I'm sure you can think of things that both you and one (or more) of your friends would both enjoy (that's what got my friends over here). Maybe there is someone there that would love to golf with you?
Also, I'm finding that The Lord almost always comes up (but if He doesn't that's okay too), because He is The shared interest. It's really just that wonderfully simple!!!
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