What IS translated "church" is the Greek word ekklhsia which literally means "out of assembly" and is the opposite of sunagwgos ("bringing together") where we get the word "synogogue".

This has to be understood to properly understand Paul's expression, "IF the called-out assemble together..." (1 Cor 14:23) It is NOT necessary for us to come together in order to be the ekklhsia. Whether or not we come together has no bearing on the fact that we are EACH the ekklhsia - God's called-out people.

However, the word "church" appears in all the popular (per)versions of the NT EXCEPT in the two above phrases where it would make sense.
KJV = 114 times
NAS = 109 times
YLT = 0 times

Note that although Young does not use the word "church", he does incorrectly use the word "assembly".

The modern understanding of "church" is based on 1700 years of unltranationalistic brainwashing from a bunch of power hungry dominators. Of course, it started innocently enough - I'm sure the Nicene Council honestly believed it was doing God a service by condemning as heretics all those who did not hold to the "true" faith. But, what did Jesus say to do about error? Have nothing to do with them. That's the answer! It isn't to keep focusing on them.

Things really aren't any different now with the "homechurch" movement. The titles may have vanished, but the power struggles are still just as real.

en xristou,
lanthanw

"Concentration of power in a political machine is bad; and an Established Church is only a political machine; it was invented for that; it is nursed, cradled, preserved for that; it is an enemy to human liberty, and does no good which it could not better do in a split-up and scattered condition."
Mark Twain - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

Could you clarify what outcome you are wanting to see? I cannot think you are advocating we do not gather, there is too much example and exhortation in scripture that we do so. Yet I don't think you are merely asking us not to use the word church (a rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet).

>Not sure I understand...
Well, perhaps you have moved beyond the point of looking to meetings (whether in a cathedral, home, park, or whatever) for your spiritual (emotional) sustenance and being. But, the reality is that most of our siblings are still bound by the chains of religion. They believe that they'll wither away, or go to hell, or some other such nonsense if they quit pursuing meetings as their source of Life.

>I cannot think you are advocating we do not gather...
As I quoted Paul, "IF the called-out assemble together..." (1 Cor 14:23) Of course, if we are IN Christ, HE will arrange encounters with whoever HE decides we should be with - whether it be 1 or 2 on a street corner or even 5000 in a cathedral. (Of course, we all know the problems with the "thinking inside the box" mentality.) The key point I'm making is that it is by HIS choosing. If I am doing the choosing, then I AM LORD and KING. If I am king, I am living in MY KINGDOM - not the Kingdom of God. The key is to first be willing to hear His voice - then be willing to obey His specific requests. That only comes after we have been given the revelation of our humanity and His loving forgiveness. Sadly, not many siblings walk in that revelation. They are too busy seeking their own pursuits - including their concept of what "church" should be.

>there is too much example and exhortation
Too much example and exhortation to do what? To "meet"??? I don't think you can find much of that concept in scripture. What I see IS daily involvement in the lives of a few other believers: eating, drinking, dialoging on the teachings of JESUS. But, "meeting"? No. How many of us go to an unbelievers house for lunch or dinner and think, "Ok, this is going to be a great meeting." No, that's ridiculous! On the other hand, if we understand ANY of Jesus paraboles, we go through EVERY moment thinking, "What is HE speaking to me through this aspect of everyday life?" We are constantly looking for HIM - not for "church". We seek to know the Head - not the body. When we see the Head, we will see the body. But, to seek the body first is idolatry.

Well brother, if you were looking for a "rational", logical explanation, I'm sorry to disappoint you. As I know you are aware, Paul said, "Natural reasoning is at war with spiritual things." My only purpose was to give words to the inexplicable thoughts bouncing around in the hearts of those who have already perceived this as spiritual reality, but haven't yet been able to express them. (To them who have ears, let them hear.)

Your brother in Christ,
lanthanw

No, one person is never an assembly -- regardless of where they are.

To what or to whom are you speaking about? I have seen other blanket statements such as this. Who is struggling to do what, brother?

No person in this world has perfectly pure motives, imo, and I certainly don't believe that all in well in church or home church land, either. Surely human nature is universal except where God keeps it in check via the Holy Spirit.

Just wondering where things are really happening that satisfy you. Do let us know who is "doing it right." Thank you.

>Mind telling us which Gene Edwards' book or tape this came out of?

LOL - that's ironic... The only thing I've ever read by the Edwardian sect was "Tale of Three Kings" - and I didn't particularly get much from it. The rest of my information about them is second-hand and I don't have any appreciation for those things I've heard either!

So, I'm somewhat at a loss to respond to the connection you made. (Perhaps you could elaborate?)

I'm sorry that your attempt at stereotyping failed so miserably, but my conclusions are my own based on my own life experiences and study of Greek, Roman, Hebrew, Aramaic, Egyptian, and Babylonian culture, language, history, philosophy, and theology.

I have read a lot from various authors from throughout history, but few from our time. (Especially from those who charge a price for what they claim was given to them from above.) But from what I have read, I'd have to say that among the things said which happen to agree with anything I believe, my own convictions were confirmed rather than inspired. That's not to say that no external source has influenced me. But, since my rebirth, I have been very careful not to embrace ANY line of thinking unless the Spirit has revealed it to me personally. Now, please don't begin accusing me of Gnosticism, Masonism, or any other such nonsense. Though I do believe that the Spirit reveals things to each of us that are for no one else, unfortunately we often try to enforce those revelations/convictions on everyone else. What I'm doing posting here is NOT trying to convince anyone to change their minds about anything. I'm posting for those who've had these thoughts, yet have wavered because of conflicting popular belief. I just want them to know there is good reason for the things they believe. "Do not only hear the Communication, but do what He says!"

Oh, and in response to your sarcasm, I have to say that it was quite accomplished and it seems to me could have only been crafted so effectively through years of practice. ;^)

>No, one person is never an assembly...

Perhaps you failed to completely read my post. The Greek word ekklhsia does NOT mean "assembly" to christians - it means "out of assembly" (or "out called") as in Heb 13:13 "So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach." Also, in case (like most christians) you don't know it, Zion means "wilderness" (some dictionaries incorrectly define it as "elevated place") but comes from a word that means "place of loneliness/solitude" yet how many times does He tell us that's the only place that He reveals Himself?

The reality is that people will use just about any excuse to stay in Jerusalem and avoid Zion. They'd much rather be assembled with other people and hope (pretend?) that this is the heart's desire of our Creator. But, He called Himself our Daddy for a reason. This awesome and intimate union with the all-powerful Creator of time and space (a relationship more intimate than sexual intercourse with our spouse, which is merely a shadow of this reality I'm speaking of) does often inspire an intense emotional response and a desire to share the experience with others. Unfortunately though, we quick-fix and temporary minded humans so often put the cart before the horse in thinking we can manufacture the most intimate of relationships by "meeting" with other people who want to experience that relationship with Him also. In effect, we bypass the intercourse (the individual relationship with God) and go directly to the offspring phase (assembling, evangelizing, etc.) in hopes to generate the feeling of the actual intercourse. I have heard it said that some women only experience orgasm during childbirth. What a spiritual picture of the distortions we experience - and even seek to experience!

Then again, there are those who swing the pendulum the other extreme and refuse to associate with other followers. Like the group above, these are selfish in their pursuit of spirituality and have already lost the race - they're running the wrong course as well. But, for the opposite reason: they avoid assembling with other believers because it makes them have to experience the humiliation of losing their false love, joy, peace, patience, endurance among the "weaker" siblings.

Finally, there are those who not only KNOW that Life comes from the Head alone, but are going to experience it no matter what the cost. But, even among these, there are those who are addicted to the rush. Those who have experienced that "intense emotional response", but begin to seek the high instead of the Person. These are the spiritual nymphomaniacs (all they want is the ecstasy of the Groom thrusting His Life into them) and are, like those devoted to assembling, focused on a result rather than the Source.

By the way, if anyone takes offense at the correlations between carnal sexual intercourse and the spiritual relationship between Christ and His Bride, there are many scriptures that deal directly and indirectly with the issue. Please do some reading. There are even some not so obvious allusions as well - like when Jesus said many would come to Him in the judgment calling Him "Lord, Lord", but He said, "Depart from Me, I never KNEW you..." The word is egnwn (like "egg known") and means "carnal/intimate knowledge".

Your brother in Christ,
lanthanw

-------
"The truth that is suppressed by friends
is the readiest weapon of the enemy."
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

[This message has been edited by lanthanw (edited 08-01-2001).]

I think I'm hearing your point, and I'll just ask for confirmation or correction before I try to think about the sense of it. I want to understand what you seem passionate to say. Here's what I note you say as key:

"The key is to first be willing to hear His voice - then be willing to obey His specific requests."

"Unfortunately though, we quick-fix and temporary minded humans so often put the cart before the horse in thinking we can manufacture the most intimate of relationships by "meeting" with other people who want to experience that relationship with Him also."

So I am hearing you say that we focus on a horizontal relationship- person to person- to fulfill the need we have for relationship. That we are loving our neighbor, but that we are doing that in lieu of loving God (the first commandment summary of the OT by Jesus) and missing devloping a vertical relationship with Him first, and then from that, a borizontal one. Is that your main point? If not, please correct me so I can understand first what you are saying to us here.

Thank you!

-Art Mealer
Durham, NC

i just happened to read some of your thoughts, and would like to volunteer a correction. the greek word, ekklhsia, is a combination of the preposition ek, and the substantive form of the verb, kalew (i call, i cry). thus, by etymology, the word could come to mean, "called out." however, as a student of ancient languages, as you say you are, you should be aware that word definitions cannot simply be derived from etymology. in interpretation, context is king. you cannot ignore the way authors use words, in favor of the way dictionaries or lexicons use words! dictionaries and lexicons (whence i assume you derived your understanding of ekklhsia), are modern reconstructions which are tools to help us understand the way ancient peoples used language. they are not, nor can they be, sources for determinative meaning in any PARTICULAR contexts (such as paul's letters, or a particular gospel).

in fact, the septuagint (the greek translation of the hebrew bible), uses the word ekklhsia frequently to translate the hebrew word, qahal, which refers among other things to the GATHERED COMMUNITY of israelites, israelite leaders, or israelite men, depending on the context. in fact, in the old testament, the designation of ekklhsia is almost always reserved for moments when the community is gathered together.

it is true to say that in paul's letters, the ekklhsia exists for him in localities whether or not its members are gathered together. however, it is also true that in the oral/aural environment of the first century mediterranean region, it is almost certain that paul expected them to be together when his letters were READ to the believers (assuming a literacy rate of somewhere between 10-15%). large portions of paul's letters make no sense unless they are read against this background (believers meeting together for purposes of prayer, teaching, fellowship or the lord's table). examples would be i corinthians 12-14; colossians 4.7-17, etc.

hope this helps.

gotta go.

sincerely,

Members of the Body of Christ cannot say of each other, "I have no need of you." We all need each other and need to gather regularly to minister to each other and to be ministered to by others.

You obviously didn't read my posts!

I wrote:
Then again, there are those who swing the pendulum the other extreme and refuse to associate with other followers. Like the group above, these are selfish in their pursuit of spirituality and have already lost the race - they're running the wrong course as well. But, for the opposite reason: they avoid assembling with other believers because it makes them have to experience the humiliation of losing their false love, joy, peace, patience, endurance among the "weaker" siblings.

Specificly, what scriptural truth do you see that most have missed? What practice or behaviour are you applying that you see would be beneficial to others? If a younger believer were to follow you around, what would he see in your behaviour or hear in your words that you are seeking to communicate here?

Trust you can clarify for us the essence of your concern.

It seems to me that you have been blessed with a revelation of what the church really is.

"And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved" (Acts 2:47)

No institution is a church, no group is a church.
There is one church: the new (physical) creation -- the body of Christ.
The saints are the church.
The new (spiritual) generation is the New Man, whose body is the church.
The New Man is Christ.
The essence of the New Man is the Spirit of Christ, the New Spirit we have been given.

mcfaf