Thank you for the verses. I see that Moses did say he was a prophet.

As for Ananias,he was struck down by God. Peter did not have any authority over him, he just stated a fact, Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. Peter did not have authourity to tell him to give any certain amount, in fact they could have given whatever they chose; but they should not have lied about it. God was the one who had authority over them. God struck them. Peter was only the vechicle that God chose to use to relay the message of why they were struck as an example to the other believers.

Isa. 54:17 shows who is in authority. It is God who protects his own servants. Also Luke 18:7-8 shows that God is the one who avenges his own elect. The question is since God has authority over his servants, how can each of his servants claim to have authority over each other? We are all servants and ministers of God. God uses each of us in different ways at different times. Since scripture said the kings and so forth lord it over another; but it shall not be so with us, How can one presume to be in authority over another? We are to consider the other better than ourselves.

Since scripture says if what a prophet says comes true, he is from God, are we to support first, then see if it comes true? If so many would be supporting false prophets waiting to see if what they say is true. That couldn't be the case as we were warned many times to beware of false prophets who seek to deceive.

Thank you for the verses. I see that Moses did say he was a prophet.

..........And did he not also have authority over his fellow Israelites? He did indeed, because the Lord gave him that authority.

As for Ananias,he was struck down by God. Peter did not have any authority over him, he just stated a fact, Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. Peter did not have authourity to tell him to give any certain amount, in fact they could have given whatever they chose; but they should not have lied about it. God was the one who had authority over them. God struck them. Peter was only the vechicle that God chose to use to relay the message of why they were struck as an example to the other believers.

..........And I would have no authority at all, if the Lord did not give it to me.

Isa. 54:17 shows who is in authority. It is God who protects his own servants. Also Luke 18:7-8 shows that God is the one who avenges his own elect. The question is since God has authority over his servants, how can each of his servants claim to have authority over each other? We are all servants and ministers of God. God uses each of us in different ways at different times. Since scripture said the kings and so forth lord it over another; but it shall not be so with us,

............That's right, they 'lord it over' others based on their vanity and their laws that men have made. But this is not the way that we are to be in authority. Jesus is explaining that our authority comes from God, not from men. And the only way to receive that kind of authority is to be humble, and to serve each other. God has the authority to give authority to his servants as he chooses.

How can one presume to be in authority over another? We are to consider the other better than ourselves.

............This word 'authority' seems to cause all sorts of misconceptions to stir up in you. I do not consider myself better than others, just because God gives me authority. It is because I love them and can teach them something that I am put into that position. Do you not understand this? But when I can see people fighting to make things better than the status quo, it is very hard for me not to get involved. I almost cannot resist a website like this. I did not come here with the intentions of hurting anyone, or to claim anything that I am not. The Lord surprised me when he told me to say to Bruce that he intends to make me the heart of the Body.

Since scripture says if what a prophet says comes true, he is from God, are we to support first, then see if it comes true?

............I did not ask for this, but you could do it this way, of course. And if you were to take that step, believing I am a prophet, you would also receive a prophet's reward. But if you deny it, you will have earned an opposite and equally negative consequence. You just have to open your eyes to it.

If so many would be supporting false prophets waiting to see if what they say is true.

............Many are already supporting false prophets. Why do you think our countries are in debt and going deeper?

That couldn't be the case as we were warned many times to beware of false prophets who seek to deceive.

............Aah yes. Beware of false prophets, for they will indeed tell you to support the rich instead of the poor - claiming that they are doing your job for you. What they fail to point out is that the moment they become rich themselves, their own teaching becomes tainted, because the deceiptfulness of riches will get them every time.

What they were supposed to be striving for is equality with their fellow believers and indeed with their fellow man (2 Cor 8:13-15). But since this concept is so difficult to accept for the rich in this world, the Lord sends his prophets to teach us - to set an example for us. There are much worse consequences than just debt in this world, but on the opposite side there are also much greater rewards than just wealth. I have no doubt but that we will see, in just a little time, that the greatest reward will be in equality.

Here's another test of determining a prophet I ran across.

Deut.13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Interestingly, the false prophet also has things come true; but doesn't follow God.

a servant of the Lord,

You have to open your eyes to the subsequent signs to know whether you have done right or wrong. Does it do you good to listen to me, or does it do you ill? For if you can't judge the tree by it's fruit (which we were incidently instructed to do), you're lost anyways.

It does me good to listen to the Holy Spirit, who is my teacher. It doesn't do me any good to listen to any man or woman unless they are speaking the same thing as the Holy Spirit and the word of God. God judges my heart as he does yours. Thankfully we don't judge each others's hearts as we don't always see fruit in a correct light (bad motives behind good fruit or good fruit done in secret).

If God wants to use someone or something in my life to teach me, he lets me know by his Holy Spirit. He has used many unexpected things and people at different times. Whether any were prophets or not is for him to judge. I just heard him speaking, regardless of titles. He has used me in various ways. Whether he as given me a title or not, I consider myself only his servant to use as he sees fit.

"It does me good to listen to the Holy Spirit, who is my teacher. It doesn't do me any good to listen to any man or woman unless they are speaking the same thing as the Holy Spirit and the word of God."

............Paul had similar problems when he went out to teach. Though it was revelation knowledge that he had been bid to go out and teach, many Jews (the chosen people) refused to believe it. All he was doing was expounding on the Word of God that was available at the time - nothing was out of line with God's Word. Neither is mine.

"God judges my heart as he does yours. Thankfully we don't judge each others's hearts as we don't always see fruit in a correct light (bad motives behind good fruit or good fruit done in secret)."

.............Faith, there is no such thing as bad motives producing good fruit. Good fruit produced in secret, yes...but even this eventually shows up over time. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to judge the tree by it's fruit, as Jesus directed us.

"If God wants to use someone or something in my life to teach me, he lets me know by his Holy Spirit."

.............This will not necessarily be true when it comes to revelation knowledge that the Lord wants only one person to teach, and to receive credit for. It has to start with one person somewhere.

"He has used many unexpected things and people at different times. Whether any were prophets or not is for him to judge."

..............It's also for us to know them, though, as directed. I see that you are decidedly not agreeing with Jesus' instructions here.

"I just heard him speaking, regardless of titles. He has used me in various ways. Whether he as given me a title or not, I consider myself only his servant to use as he sees fit."

...............As do I. If you read back, you will see that I never claimed to be a prophet. But if you suspect that this might be true, I have given you a way of proving it for your own satisfaction. This does not have to be a public test, only for you alone, or for anybody who needs to know.

Diane

You said, "there is no such thing as bad motives producing good fruit."

Maybe I should have used the word work. There are a multitude of people and organizations today giving money, food, clothing, shelter, etc., etc. to those in need, who only do so for show, to gain status in the community and so on. On the outside, these good works seem to be a good fruit of love for others; but are often used to benifit the person's own selfish desires for money, fame, power, etc.

You said, "This will not necessarily be true when it comes to revelation knowledge that the Lord wants only one person to teach, and to receive credit for. It has to start with one person somewhere."

"TO RECEIVE CREDIT FOR"? As much as I remember, the various prophets always said, " And the Lord says". They did not receive credit for anything, other than being obedient to God to proclaim what he told them to say.

It has already started with one person somewhere. That would be Jesus Christ the son of God and our Savior, Lord, Master and King. He sent his Holy Spirit to teach us, that we wouldn't have need of a human teacher. 1John 2:27 & John 14:26

His servant,

"Maybe I should have used the word work. There are a multitude of people and organizations today giving money, food, clothing, shelter, etc., etc. to those in need, who only do so for show, to gain status in the community and so on."

...........And as the Bible states, these people have already received their reward.

"On the outside, these good works seem to be a good fruit of love for others; but are often used to benifit the person's own selfish desires for money, fame, power, etc."

...........I agree. But these so-called acts of charity are not solving any problems for society either. The problems are actually getting worse, for the gap between the rich and the poor is getting wider. So what has seemed to be good works are not ending up good works in the end, are they? Churches do the same thing. Judge the tree by its fruit.

"TO RECEIVE CREDIT FOR"? As much as I remember, the various prophets always said, " And the Lord says". They did not receive credit for anything, other than being obedient to God to proclaim what he told them to say."

............Oh, they received credit for it alright, whether you want to see it or not. They received gifts and donations from the people who came to them willingly. And when the prophets were sent to people that didn't want the Lord's message, the Lord found other ways to support his servants - sometimes bringing entire cities down, and leaving the poor to take over the land - remember the stories of Jeremiah?

This is what I call 'credit' - acknowledgment for their messages, both verbally and through gifts and donations. It is the Lord that wanted to give this to his workers, not necessarily the people involved. So if the people refused to cooperate, the Lord would treat them like the fig tree that refused to give of its fruit. Perhaps you don't want to see that money was given to us to do what the Lord wants, not what we want. For what have you got that you did not receive from God? Nothing - either of you.

"It has already started with one person somewhere. That would be Jesus Christ the son of God and our Savior, Lord, Master and King. He sent his Holy Spirit to teach us, that we wouldn't have need of a human teacher. 1John 2:27 & John 14:26"

.............Jesus is indeed our Lord and King, and the Holy Spirit is our teacher - and the system works well, if we listen adequately. But it doesn't say that he wouldn't have need of human teachers any longer. This is obviously not what Paul thought or the other disciples, for they were teachers themselves. They just didn't give themselves titles, and neither do I. But when things go from bad to worse in the world, the Lord obviously sends his servants to do his work, as he has always done. He does nothing without first revealing his plans his prophets.(Amos 3:7) So some human always has to receive it before any others do, obviously.

Diane

I haven't responded for I felt it was a useless debate. However, now that I have looked at your web site, I do understand why the discussion seemed so fruitless. The "mother" you speak of on your site is the same as Paul had to contend with in Ephesians, the great goddess Diania also know as St. Mary, Astheroth, and even Mother Nature. There is one God and he is a male!

A servant of Jesus Christ,

If you have looked at my website, then in it you should see that the Bible mentions the female in God, or 'Jerusalem above' in several passages. One of them being Galatians 4:26 by Paul, in that we all have this same mother if we are believers.

"But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother."

Do you deny that she is written about in the Bible?

This is the female I am talking about. And since Paul continues on in this passage to refer us to the 'barren woman' in Isaiah 54 (Gal 4:27), it is obvious that this 'mother' is written about in both the Old and New Testements.

There is no such thing as a Father without a Mother.

Your quote,
"The "mother" you speak of on your site is the same as Paul had to contend with in Ephesians, the great goddess Diania also know as St. Mary, Astheroth, and even Mother Nature. There is one God and he is a male!"

Clearly you are getting things mixed up, Faith. Paul does not 'contend with' a false female God one minute, and then promote her in his writings the next. The problem with the Ephesians in their belief system is that they were setting up the female for the wrong reasons - as a way of avoiding the Christ (and the Father). I accept both Father and Mother, as does Paul.

If you believe in the Christ without recognition of his being a 'seed' - that is, having both male and female parts in him - then you are doing no better than the Ephesians for setting up their female God without the male.

Diane

You seem to have accepted New Age teachings from what I saw of your site. I will pray for you that your eyes may be opened to the one true God who is a jealous God and shares his kingdom with no other gods.

with the love of Jesus Christ,

And you 'seem' to have accepted Bible teaching also - but I guess we're both wrong.

New Age teaching does not come from the Bible, Faith. Would you accuse Jesus and Paul of this teaching also? To say that you will pray for me is a little premature and condescending.

I have come to understand that every scriptural doctrine is stated simply in words of scripture alone and that any doctrine which cannot be stated in the very words of scripture is NOT a scriptural doctrine.

I appeal to 3 scriptures: Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5,6 and I Corinthians 2:12,13.

If the doctrines to which you hold can be so stated, state them and I will acknowledge that they are scriptural doctrines. If your doctrines or mine cannot be so stated, I believe they must be rejected.

I have had to reject many doctrines to which I formerly clung tenaciously simply because they did not pass the test. "The fall of man", "substitutionary atonement", "pastoral authority", "pre-tribulation rapture", "clergy are not laity" etc etc are some prime examples.

I would urge both of you to go back to scripture and find what scripture SAYS. State your doctrine precisely as it is stated in scripture (nothing more and nothing less) and you will not go wrong!

You are disallowing revelation knowledge and prophesy this way.

Case in point: Jesus could see in scripture what none of his followers could - that he had to be rejected by men and to die on the cross, and then to rise again in three days. These scriptures were prophesied in scriptures, yet not plainly written (to the disciples at least).

Peter was given a vision just prior to meeting with Cornelius, about a blanket coming down with animals contained in it that he would never have considered edible food - yet he was instructed to kill and eat. Through this he understood that he "should not call any man impure or unclean." (Acts 10:28) Also, not until it was told to the Jews in Jerusalem did they understand that, "...God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18). The others couldn't see it until Peter told them, for it was not plainly written in scripture, yet it was still true.

Paul was kept from preaching the word in the province of Asia by the Holy Spirit, but was sent via a dream into Macedonia. (Acts 16:6-10) Was he supposed to first prove to his companions that his instructions were plainly written in scriptures?

I am often told by church leaders that we are to 'go ye into all the world, baptising them etc...'. Nothing could be more plainly written than this, in their opinion. But Paul obviously did not go into all the world, nor did he baptise believers as a regular course of action - he was being guided directly by the Holy Spirit.

Bruce, your suggestion defeats it's own purpose, for it is not written in scripture itself. It is a tradition made up by men.

This does not at all disallow revelation knowledge (i.e. Peter's knowledge of Ananias and Sapphira's sin Acts 5:1-11) or prophecy (i.e. Agabus' prophecy of a coming famine Acts 11:27-30) Neither one of these things were to be taught as doctrines for all believers. They were both specific instructions to specific people for a specific purpose. Nor was Paul's vision to be taught to all believers that all believers were to go to Macedonia! Paul's vision was not taught as doctrine but was God-given direction for the action of one little group at one particular time in history!

The commission of Matt28:18-20 was not addressed to one man and intended to be fulfilled by one man! It was addressed to Christ's disciples and was intended to be obeyed and fulfilled by Christ's disciples. Obviously one man cannot go into all the world but many disciples can and do! That believers are to be baptized is clearly taught in scripture and if believers are not baptized following salvation they are plainly disobedient to scripture. Such is doctrine which is to be taught to all disciples!

So I would agree that knowledge and prophecy need not be stated in words of scripture, but that they should still; be tested by scripture! A word of knowledge or a prophecy that violates scripture or requires someone to do something which scripture forbids them to do would definitely be false knowledge or prophecy!

What I am warning about is when someone TEACHES something and tries to "support" their teaching with various quotations from scripture but is unable to demonstrate, in the words of scripture, the actual teaching which they are seeking to present. When such teachings are taught they are false teaching presented by a false teacher. Some such doctrines which I have had to repudiate are the doctrines of "the fall of man", "infant baptism", "substitutionary atonement", "purgatory", "the seven year tribulation", "pre-tribulation rapture of the church", etc etc. While all of these doctrines are held and taught by many, not one of them is stated in the words of scripture. Every one of them is contrary to clear statements which are wruitten in scripture. Thus all of these doctrines are false doctrines!

So Diane, I maintain that whether it is me, you, Faith, or anyone else who teaches a doctrine that cannot be stated in words of scripture alone, they are teaching a false doctrine. I did NOT say that if one gives a word of knowledge or a prophecy, it can only be valid if it is found in the words of scripture! But I would maintain that such words of knowledge or prophecy should be tested to be sure they are not contrary to scripture.

Here's your quote,

"...every scriptural doctrine is stated simply in words of scripture alone and that any doctrine which cannot be stated in the very words of scripture is NOT a scriptural doctrine."

Well, obviously. But can you find this in scriptures, or is this your own doctrine?

So, "State your doctrine precisely as it is stated in scripture (nothing more and nothing less) and you will not go wrong!" - is a false doctrine, because according to your own rules you have failed in giving the quote from scriptures (nothing more and nothing less) that states this.

Again you say,

"The test of one's doctrine (teaching) is what scripture says."

Not necessarily. Scripture alone is certainly not the only test of truth in doctrine, for as we mature we see more and more in scriptures. We are also to judge the tree by it's fruit. Do you deny this?

"So I would agree that knowledge and prophecy need not be stated in words of scripture, but that they should still; be tested by scripture! A word of knowledge or a prophecy that violates scripture or requires someone to do something which scripture forbids them to do would definitely be false knowledge or prophecy!"

Ok, so you agree with this point. But Faith is making a blanket statement about my website when it does not violate scripture, and is supported by it continuously throughout. We are not to let someone accuse us falsely, don't you agree?

Diane

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Proverbs 30:5,6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
I Corinthians 2:12,13 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So I would ask you, concerning the doctrine about which you speak on your web site, what scripture(s) state it?

Your quote,

'The scriptural doctrine about which I have been speaking is stated as follows:

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Proverbs 30:5,6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
I Corinthians 2:12,13 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.'

I have read all these Bruce. These do not say that we are to use 'only scripture' to state our doctrine, only that we are not to 'add to the word of God' - meaning we are not to change the meaning of scripture. We can and should add words to scripture if cultural differences require it, or if revelation knowledge requires it, or if the Holy Spirit gives us further understanding of it for the sake of others, because they themselves might be going too far in their own understanding of it. If the church in general, or an individual, is exaggerating the word of God in one way or another, it becomes necessary to exaggerate it in the opposite way in order to bring it back to the true balanced meaning of it, so that the church can learn that balance.

We are not to 'add' to the 'word of God' to change its meaning, but we are to add words to further our understanding of it, and so to keep it in line with the 'word of God' as a whole. The word of God is often given directly from the Holy Spirit, as this last verse also states.

"So I would ask you, concerning the doctrine about which you speak on your web site, what scripture(s) state it?"

As stated before, this is a rule made by men. I do not have to satisfy it.

Diane

But II Timothy 3:16 does tell us that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

If scripture is to be understood and evaluated in light of other revelations or prophecy then there is NO OBJECTIVE STANDARD and what anyone says is of equal validity to that spoken by anyone else!

I'm sorry I offended you. That was not my intention. I do tend to be too blunt at times.

You are correct that Paul said in Gal. 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." I certainly do not believe that Paul was preaching a new age doctrine; nor was he teaching a 'mother' god as you suggest.

**Diane said, "There is no such thing as a Father without a Mother." "I accept both Father and Mother, as does Paul."

Verse 24 of Gal. 4 shows he was using an 'allegory' for the new covenant of the NT Church. Could it be he called Jerusalem mother because it was the first NT church started at Jerusalem on the day of Pentacost and the church spread from there?

Allegory is often used in scripture. Jeresalem is called "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, prepared as a bride adourned fro her husband." (Rev. 21:2) Again in verses 9-10, we see she is "the bride, the Lamb's wife." "...that great city, the holy Jerusalem, decending out of heaven from God." Who is the bride? Christians, believers, saints, overcomers. We are the bride! Notice she came "out of God." He created her as he did everything. Gen. 1. There is no mention of a mother along side God, the Father, creating anything.

Other references to who God is: Matt. 28:19 Father, Son, & Holy Ghost
John 1:1 & 14 the word
1 Cor. 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." All of scripture is filled with mention of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost; but not to the mother.

God's word also tells us about another woman, the false church. Rev. 17:15 " and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." She is not a literal mother, entity or god; but a false religious system who has harlot daughters (other false religions coming from her). All religions, except the one way, truth and life, come from Satan's counterfeit, Babylon. The best counterfeit is the mixing of truth with error; which has come into many churches as wolves in sheep's clothing, Satan and his ministers of "light".

We are warned in Rev. 18:4 to "come out of her, my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive ot of her plagues." We are warned in 2 Cor. 11:4 about "another Jesus", another spirit and another gospel.

As for judging fruit: Good fruit comes from good trees that come from a good root. The root being Jesus Christ. Isa. 11:10; Isa. 53:1-5; Rom 11:16-18; Rom. 15:12; Rev. 22:16

As for prophesy:

****Diane said previously, "This will not necessarily be true when it comes to revelation knowledge that the Lord wants only one person to teach, and to receive credit for It has to start with one person somewhere." Later she said, "disallowing revelation knowledge and prophecy this way,"

We must remember 2 Pet.1:2 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." All prophecies of the OT were in line with the whole of God's word; not just a new teaching for 1 person to teach.

Every word of God is pure...Prov. 30:5
Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." EVERY WORD OF GOD!

For those hard to understand passages we have ..."the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Rev. 19:10..."for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Thus we return to the root-Jesus- all hinges on him.

As for the birth of Jesus, His birth was prophecied to happen and it did just as predicted. A virgin birth. However, this in no way makes Mary a mother god or part of the godhead. It is the Roman system that deifies her and calls her Mother of God, Queen of Heaven & Co-redemptress and such. All these ideas stem from ancient Babylon's false religious system.

****Previously Diane said (3-7) "I see you are decidedly not agreeing with Jesus' instructions here." and (5-10) you 'seem' to have accepted Bible teaching also- but I guess we're both wrong."

It looks like we don't believe in the same Jesus. I do not believe in a mother god nor do I make any apoligies for my belief; but I stand on what the Holy Spirit has shown be from scripture. I found no scripture to back up a mother god. I do not desire to teach you anything; but exhort you to continue to study God's word to prove what you beleive is true. If you have no proof from scripture, then all you have is your own vain imagination.

A servant of King Jesus,

Thanks for your comments. I too have been through many changes in my believes as I was taught false doctrine from men that just wouldn't hold up to scripture. We must reject doctrines that don't line up with scripture. We have to be able to prove if what a teacher says is right or not just like the Bereans. It doesn't matter how good it sounds or feels; nor how many people may agree or not. Does it follow God's truth? That's what matters!

his servant,

Your quote,

"All I can say then, if your doctrine is not stated in scripture, those who would go by the principle of Acts 17:11 ("They searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so.") would have no basis by which to determine that the things you teach are so."

These people that Acts 17 is referring to were searching scripture diligently because they were eager to know the truth about Paul's message. As stated before, if you are looking to disprove truth, then scripture cannot help you. It really depends on your motive for using scripture. Now if you were sincerely looking to see that which I say is true, then scripture can be a useful tool, for then the Holy Spirit can reveal it to you as you read.

Still, you do have a basis other than that, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:20)

As Jesus stated elsewhere, you can always judge the tree by it's fruit. (Matt 7:20) You can always look around you and see the truth if what God is like, for you are without excuse in this regard.

"But II Timothy 3:16 does tell us that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.""

I believe I have just used it this way.

"If scripture is to be understood and evaluated in light of other revelations or prophecy then there is NO OBJECTIVE STANDARD and what anyone says is of equal validity to that spoken by anyone else!

And where in scripture does it say that we must use 'objective' standards? Is this a scriptural doctrine? Obviously it must be another rule of men. Case in point: the secular man will read the Bible and point out several contradictions - one heard a roaring thunder while others heard an angel speaking - one states that Mary reached the cave while still dark, another while it was daylight - these are just a couple of examples. We cannot apply objective standards to the word of God.

Yes, anything that anyone says is of equal validity to that spoken by anyone else. You must learn to judge their words in different ways.

"I believe that the opposite is true: i.e. Scripture is the standard by which anyone's teaching (mine included) is to be evaluated."

Rather it is the truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit that is the standard by which we can evaluate scriptures. As above, the voice of God comes through to many people at different times. But we must learn to evaluate their words based on what we see around us, and what we have learned in our lives to be true - not on a biased interpretation of scripture - for in so doing you render it useless.

You said it yourself, the disciples could not always see that something was written in scriptures - even though they had read the scriptures many times, and Jesus pointed something out to them. The same happens to latter-day disciples too.

Diane

~~~~~~~~~~~Thank you.

You are correct that Paul said in Gal. 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." I certainly do not believe that Paul was preaching a new age doctrine; nor was he teaching a 'mother' god as you suggest."

~~~~~~~~~~~'Mother above' would be the same as 'Father above' - and that means 'Mother God' is the same as 'Father God', and 'heavenly Mother' the same as 'heavenly Father'. To interpret it differently is actually showing bias, not the other way around.

**Diane said, "There is no such thing as a Father without a Mother." "I accept both Father and Mother, as does Paul."

Verse 24 of Gal. 4 shows he was using an 'allegory' for the new covenant of the NT Church.

~~~~~~~~~~~Verse 24 is referring to the figurative (or allegorical) representation of Sarah and Hagar to the two covenants - however both the women and the covenants were real, not symbolic in themselves. In the same way Jesus was a symbolic representation (or allegory) for Isreal. But in no way can you tell me that either Isreal or Jesus were not also real in themselves. 'Jerusalem above' must therefore be a figurative representation of our Mother, above as well as the real thing.

"Could it be he called Jerusalem mother because it was the first NT church started at Jerusalem on the day of Pentacost and the church spread from there?"

~~~~~~~~~~~I believe this was true but the larger picture is also true. The process of creation is still happening all around us.

"Who is the bride? Christians, believers, saints, overcomers. We are the bride! Notice she came "out of God." He created her as he did everything. Gen. 1. There is no mention of a mother along side God, the Father, creating anything.

~~~~~~~~~~~You are part of the Bride only if you accept her and become part of her as Paul did. But I didn't say that she created anything. The onus is on us to put our Mother by our Father's side.

"Other references to who God is: Matt. 28:19 Father, Son, & Holy Ghost
John 1:1 & 14 the word
1 Cor. 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." All of scripture is filled with mention of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost; but not to the mother."

~~~~~~~~~~~The Holy Spirit is our Mother. Wisdom is our Mother. And she is "a tree of life to those who
embrace her." (Prov 3:18) Her identity has been hidden from our sight from the beginning.

"God's word also tells us about another woman, the false church. Rev. 17:15 " and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." She is not a literal mother, entity or god; but a false religious system who has harlot daughters (other false religions coming from her). All religions, except the one way, truth and life, come from Satan's counterfeit, Babylon. The best counterfeit is the mixing of truth with error; which has come into many churches as wolves in sheep's clothing, Satan and his ministers of "light".

~~~~~~~~~~~Babylon is that church that accepts the Father and the Son, but not the Mother.

"We are warned in Rev. 18:4 to "come out of her, my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive ot of her plagues." We are warned in 2 Cor. 11:4 about "another Jesus", another spirit and another gospel."

~~~~~~~~~~~This is why I am writing you - so that in future you will know that the Christian church also falls into this category. This is what you are supposed to come out of - this system of belief that replaces the real Mother with a harlot.

"As for judging fruit: Good fruit comes from good trees that come from a good root. The root being Jesus Christ. Isa. 11:10; Isa. 53:1-5; Rom 11:16-18; Rom. 15:12; Rev. 22:16

~~~~~~~~~~~~Yes, and let's not forget Isa 54 - the barren woman that has no children because the childen have not yet accepted her.

Jesus was the 'seed' that started it all. He grew into being the root and the vine above ground. Yet every seed, and in fact every plant/tree has both male female parts to it. God created man in the image of God, he created them - male and female. If the image is male and female, then so is God.

We must remember 2 Pet.1:2 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." All prophecies of the OT were in line with the whole of God's word; not just a new teaching for 1 person to teach.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please re-read the verse you've just quoted. No prophesy "of the scripture" is of any private interpretation. New prophesy may very well be given to only one person for that one to tell to others. It is my responsibility to spread it to others, thereby making it 'not private'. But it still has to start somewhere.

Every word of God is pure...Prov. 30:5
Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." EVERY WORD OF GOD!

~~~~~~~~~~~~That's right, and sometimes the word of God can come to an individual for his/her personal use. Remember Jesus by the well with the Samaritan woman - he had food that the disciples knew not of.

"For those hard to understand passages we have ..."the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you.""

~~~~~~~~~~~~~That's right. But the Spirit of God will not usually give you revelation knowledge unless you have reached out for it, and passed certain tests. You have to earn it.

"Rev. 19:10..."for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Thus we return to the root-Jesus- all hinges on him."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~This passage was given to warn us. When we get put too much emphasis on the worship of the word, 'bowing down to him, we fall victim to prophesy. Our own words are used against us to create destruction with instead of life, for we are worshipping a false god.

"As for the birth of Jesus, His birth was prophecied to happen and it did just as predicted. A virgin birth. However, this in no way makes Mary a mother god or part of the godhead. It is the Roman system that deifies her and calls her Mother of God, Queen of Heaven & Co-redemptress and such. All these ideas stem from ancient Babylon's false religious system."

~~~~~~~~~~~Are you making presumptions again? I have in no way implied that I believe Mary to a mother god. This belief is part of the Catholic system.

"It looks like we don't believe in the same Jesus. I do not believe in a mother god nor do I make any apoligies for my belief; but I stand on what the Holy Spirit has shown be from scripture. I found no scripture to back up a mother god."

~~~~~~~~~~~If you hope to be part of the Bride and Body of Christ, you must accept the Mother above as Paul did. It is right there in scripture, but the deceiptfulness that was presented by the serpent, blinded all women in the beginning. This is an arrogance of the Christian church (Babylon) because they hope to take their Mother's position by their Father's side. You cannot be your Father's bride, only your Mother can.

Diane

Red flags always go up in my mind when someone (speaking of something in scripture says, "It says this, but it MEANS THAT!)

Allegory of The Two Covenants: Gal.4:21-5:18
1.The Old Covenant:
-this covenant represented by Hagar was from Mount Sinai
-this covenant genders or produces bondage
-it answers to Jerusalem which is now in bondage with her children (the nation of Israel)
-by it people were under the law
-pictured in Abraham's son by a bondwoman
-Ishmael was born after the flesh
-he that is after the flesh persecutes him that is born after the Spirit
-cast out the bondwoman and her son for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman
-be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage
-the man who is circumcised is debtor to do the whole law
-if you fulfil the lust of the flesh you do not walk in the Spirit
-if your under the law, you're not led by the Spirit

2.The New Covenant:
-this covenant represented by Sarah
-this covenant produces liberty
-Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all (New Covenant believers)
-by it people are led by the Spirit
-pictured in Abraham's son by a freewoman
-Isaac was born by promise
-he that is born after the Spirit is persecuted by him that is after the flesh
-we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free
-standfast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free
-we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith which worketh by love
-walk in the Spirit and you'll not fulfil the lust of the flesh
-if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I trust that the statements of scripture will clarify the issue as God has always intended His
word should. As the topic of this thread suggests, wrong thinking always leads to wrong practice. So the remedu\y of wrong practice is always correction to our thinking by allowing our minds to be transformed by the pure Word of God.

Your servant for Jesus' sake,
Bruce

In reference to "the mother of us all" in Galatians 4 and 5: This does not refer at all to a
literal woman who is a counterpart to God, the Father!

~~~~~~~~~~~We haven't yet established that the Father is a real literal man - but whether in Spirit or in physical body, the two must match each other - otherwise the children could go on deceiving themselves into believing their Mother is not important, or non-existent. Would you treat your Mother like this in the literal physical world also?

You must admit however that Jesus was a literal man, and that the nation of Isreal was also literally a group of people - also that one was an allegory for the other. It shouldn't then be difficult to accept that 'Jerusalem above' (the Bride) would also be a literal match for the Groom.

"Rather , as scripture specificly states
it is an allegory! Two women, Hagar and Sarah picture for us the contrasts between the
Old Covenant which God made at Sinai (which Hebrews 8:13 tells us decayed, waxed old
and was ready to vanish away) and the New Covenant which the Lord Jesus brought in by
His own sacrifice at Calvary. Hebrews 9:15-28.

"Red flags always go up in my mind when someone (speaking of something in scripture says, "It says this, but it MEANS THAT!)"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bruce, I do not deny that it takes a bit of spiritual discernment. But if God states it that we are without excuse - that we should know because 'he has made it known to us through what he has made' - I can hardly deny that either. Look around you. Have you ever heard of a man marrying a horse, or a goat? Would it have worked for the first Adam to just hook up with one of the animals he was with? Wasn't it right for him to die (go to sleep) so that his own wife could be brought forth first, so he could marry one of his own kind? So, the groom must marry one of his own kind, for this is keeping with Biblical principals and intent.

"I trust that the statements of scripture will clarify the issue as God has always intended His
word should."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~As already stated - the truth of scripture is clarified by the Holy Spirit plus by our life experience, and judging the tree by its fruit. This is love.

"As the topic of this thread suggests, wrong thinking always leads to wrong practice. So the remedu\y of wrong practice is always correction to our thinking by allowing our minds to be transformed by the pure Word of God."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Your are wrong in this, and I've just realized something. Of course it's wrong thinking that leads to wrong practice. But you're forgetting what about the source of wrong thinking - it is a wrong heart, or wrong motive - a motive not based on love. A wrong motive will always lead to wrong thinking, so you must go back to that source in order to correct the problem. You cannot correct your thinking without first correcting your heart.

Turn to love first, and then you will be able to interpret scripture the way that God wants you to, for the Holy Spirit will be able to show you. But you are turning to scripture first, and therein lies your mistake. The 'pure Word of God', as you put it, cannot help you without first accepting that part of God - a loving heart - which is the key to life - wisdom - for 'she is a tree of life to those that embrace her.' (Prov 3:18)

Diane

PS - I hope you are not now ignoring my last post to you. Also, you've been avoiding some of my questions.

Yes I already agreed that Paul was using an allegory.

Next to Diane,

I'm just wondering, from whom or what do you get these new revelations? How do you know they are correct if you don't use the Holy Bible as a standard that these revelations must line up with?
How is it that "new" revelations would not be considered adding to the existing revelation of God's word?

Your quote,

"I'm just wondering, from whom or what do you get these new revelations? How do you know they are correct if you don't use the Holy Bible as a standard that these revelations must line up with?"

I get them from the Holy Spirit as I'm reading the Bible, or in dreams perhaps, or in impressions in my mind - the truth comes through as revelation in the same way that you would receive it. The difference is that we often do not see the truth while reading scripture - even when plainly written - because of inground bias or immaturity. In other words, I do use the scripture as a standard, and use it regularly as evidence for my teachings. Though it cannot be used as an 'objective' standard, because the Bible doesn't work in secular ways. And as already mentioned, I judge the tree by it's fruit. I look around me at the truth in what has been made, and in what I have learned through life-experiences.

The Bible was given as a stepping stone to the Holy Spirit/Christ. It is the not the end in and of itself. Bruce wants to make the highest authority, to take the focus off love as being the highest.

"How is it that "new" revelations would not be considered adding to the existing revelation of God's word?"

You will note that Paul mentions receiving revelation knowledge that he does not put down in the Bible for all to read. He received these directly from the Holy Spirit and this is why so much of his writing is in scriptures. He trusted the voice of God, as it came directly to him - in whatever form - and these revelations were new in the respect that most of the church did not know about them. This is an ability anybody get to if they accept the Spirit's voice.

To understand that birth requires a Mother is something even the youngest child can understand. Is it 'new'? Not really - but it is new in the respect that the Christian church has not yet accepted it in these latter years, and does not 'see' it in the Bible.

The female in God is mentioned all over the place in the Bible, but the word of God acts as a buffer in order to protect her. It has also blinded the children from truth that would burn them if spoken too soon.

Since you say you get your revelations from scripture reading, then why can't you give scripture to back them up? You say you aren't required to; but couldn't you to prove them to others?

How do you know the Holy Spirit is female? Where did you get that?

By the way, the mother god and queen of heaven doctrines are not Roman Catholic. They got them from ancient Babylon. Baal, Asthoreth, Tammuz, Queen of Heaven, etc. are found in the OT. These were the false doctrines and false gods that ancient Israel were commiting spiritual adultry with. Many of these false doctrines have found there way into the modern church denominations by way of RC church. The mother goddess is one of them and several mainline denominations have been accepting this false teaching the last few years.

"Since you say you get your revelations from scripture reading,..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~I get them from the Holy Spirit directly, Faith. It can happen while I'm reading the Bible, in dreams, or impressions in my mind. It can happen when I look around me at the world, or at what I've learned in my own life. The point is, if the Holy Spirit is not with you to help you interpret the Bible, you cannot interpret it correctly for these things are 'spiritually discerned.'

"...then why can't you give scripture to back them up?..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I have backed them up all through my posts here and on my wepbpage. You just don't want to address them most of the time. I am presuming that you are familiar with scripture, as Bruce is, so that I do not always have to quotethe actual chapter an verse. But even if I adlib somewhat, that shouldn't make you believe that my doctrine viloates scripture.

"...You say you aren't required to; but couldn't you to prove them to others?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I cannot 'prove' them to anyone who refuses to see the truth or listen to the Holy Spirit, Faith. However, when Moses was asked to prove his authority, the Lord simply sent them plagues or problems, or even death - to prove that he was speaking with authority.

"How do you know the Holy Spirit is female? Where did you get that?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This is a hard one, but the Spirit explained it to me this way. In the same way that men are dominant in this physical world, in Spirit, the female is dominant. Just as Jesus had wisdom in him (that is, the female), that same female will now be exposed. Just as Eve had to be brought out of the first Adam, so the new Eve (Jesus' bride) has to be brought out of him. And the 'female will surround the male' - just he opposite of what it has been in this world, in the next age - this last is found in prophesy in the Old Testement (if you don't recall this passage, I'll find it for you later). Men will be seeking women out for protection, and to keep them alive. But the Spiritual world works in reverse to the physical world.

"By the way, the mother god and queen of heaven doctrines are not Roman Catholic..."

~~~~~~~~~~~I was referring before to the belief in Mary being the mother of Jesus, and in this way, taking the true Mother's place in the Godhead.

"They got them from ancient Babylon. Baal, Asthoreth, Tammuz, Queen of Heaven, etc. are found in the OT. These were the false doctrines and false gods that ancient Israel were commiting spiritual adultry with. Many of these false doctrines have found there way into the modern church denominations by way of RC church. The mother goddess is one of them and several mainline denominations have been accepting this false teaching the last few years.

~~~~~~~~~~~But I do not advocate these - the timing was not right, especially since the Lord was not in agreement with these doctrines back then. There is only one Mother, just as there is only one Son, and One Father. And She could not surface until all things were ready. These people you mention were trying to defy the Lord God, and his position of rule - and trying to replace the real Mother also. But only the one that the Lord God backs up will be the true Mother. He has proven me many times in this.

My doctrine does not in the least try to dethrone the true King. He is my Lord forever. What he did to earn his position could not have been done by anyone else. This is sign of a true Bride and Mother. She loves her husband, and does not try to usurp him.

Diane

You also claim that, "The female in God is mentioned all over the place in the Bible." But you cannot cite a scrap of evidence for this claim either! Neither femininity nor motherhood is ever ascribed to God in the inspired scriptures!

You said, "The Holy Spirit is our Mother. " And when asked to explain where you got that, you just said, "The Spirit explained it to me this way...." Your explanation did not contain any reliable grounds to conclude that the Holy Spirit is "female" or that the Spirit is "mother"!! It seems to me therefore, that your theory is simply conjecture and supposition without any proof whatsoever!!!
Your only line of logic is very faulty! You said,"God created man in the image of God, he created them - male and female. If the image is male and female, then so is God."

Here is how your logic breaks down: God also made man with a physical body formed of the dust of the ground. If your logic is valid then God also had a physical body before He created man! This is ridiculous!

"God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." So when God created man in His own image, He made man a spiritual being. The image of God is not a physical body and it is not male and female. If that was the case, all animals were also made in the image of God! The image of God is spirit.

It is my belief, derived from the use of the terms "male" and "female" in scripture that the only beings in the universe which are characterized by masculinity or femininity are living creatures which were designed with the capacity to reproduce sexually. Beings which were not designed with the capacity to reproduce sexually are neither male nor female! There are no spirits, angels or demons which are male or female! They are not given in marriage nor do they reproduce sexually.

I trust that these few thoughts will clarify the thoughts of many on this subject which is often clouded by conjecture and supposition.

Your said the Holy spirit is female. HOwever, in a previous post on the introduction thread you refered to the Holy Spirit as male. (that was you wasn't it?) So which is it? You sound confused to me.

In the following two passages you say that the Holy Spirit is the bride.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This is a hard one, but the Spirit explained it to me this way. In the same way that men are dominant in this physical world, in Spirit, the female is dominant. Just as Jesus had wisdom in him (that is, the female), that same female will now be exposed. Just as Eve had to be brought out of the first Adam, so the new Eve (Jesus' bride) has to be brought out of him. And the 'female will surround the male' - just he opposite of what it has been in this world, in the next age - this last is found in prophesy in the Old Testement (if you don't recall this passage, I'll find it for you later). Men will be seeking women out for protection, and to keep them alive. But the Spiritual world works in reverse to the physical world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~My doctrine does not in the least try to dethrone the true King. He is my Lord forever. What he did to earn his position could not have been done by anyone else. This is sign of a true Bride and Mother. She loves her husband, and does not try to usurp him.

Previously, (5-14) you said that Jerusalem was the bride.

~~~~~~~~~~~~You must admit however that Jesus was a literal man, and that the nation of Israel was also literally a group of people - also that one was an allegory for the other. It shouldn't then be difficult to accept that 'Jerusalem above' (the Bride) would also be a literal match for the Groom.

So is the Holy Spirit the bride or is Jerusalem the bride? Scripture says that the church is the bride! Surely you don't think the Holy Spirit is the same as the church. This is contradicting. How did you reach such conclusions? The Holy Spirit was sent to comfort and teach us---not create us as in a mother having children.

You also said there must be a mother for the Father and that little children could understand this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~(5-15)To understand that birth requires a Mother is something even the youngest child can understand. Is it 'new'? Not really - but it is new in the respect that the Christian church has not yet accepted it in these latter years, and does not 'see' it in the Bible.

This is true in the physical world. However, it doesn't make sense in the kingdom of God which is spiritual. For then God would have needed a mother and father. Also this mother god you speak of would have needed a mother and father and so on in an endless circle. This is the old egg before the chicken debate. Which came first? If you beleive in God the Father the creator of all, then it is settled. He has always been and created all. He didn't have to have a wife to create anything or to bear children. He made Adam of the dust of the earth---not through procreation with a mother god. This is the same old Babylon lie of past cultures.

When Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of spirit, he was not refering to being born of a mother god. Born of water is often equated to baptism and born of the spirit is just what it says. Jesus' comes to live in us through the Holy Spirit. Another understanding of this is that born of water is the natural physical birth (Nicodemus ask "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?) And that the spiritual birth is what allows one to enter the kingdom of God. Remember that no flesh and blood can enter the kingdom.

a servant of Lord Jesus Christ,

Faith

Your quote,

"In all of your posts here regarding your theory of "the Mother in God" the only scripture texts to which you refer are Gal.4:26 "Jerusalem above" and Proverbs 3:18."

~~~~~~~~~~~Let me repeat myself. No amount of scripture is going to prove anything to you if you will not see the truth.

"Neither text is talking about any "Mother in God! Gal.4:26 is speaking about the New Covenant"

~~~~~~~~~~~It's talking about 'Jerusalem above', 'our mother', just as Paul states.

"and Proverbs 3:13-18 is simply talking about wisdom!" Nowhere does scripture ever equate wisdom with "Mother in God"!!! You also claim that "wisdom is our mother"! But you cite not a scrap of evidence to verify or prove your claim!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~Wisdom is clearly female - the first of the Lord's creations - whoever finds her finds life. (Pov 8:1 & 35). Life is only for those who embrace her, remember?

You also claim that, "The female in God is mentioned all over the place in the Bible." But you cannot cite a scrap of evidence for this claim either! Neither femininity nor motherhood is ever ascribed to God in the inspired scriptures!

~~~~~~~~~~~Bruce, if you cannot look around you and judge the tree by its fruit, then you are sorely lacking in your ability to understand scripture.

"You said, "The Holy Spirit is our Mother. " And when asked to explain where you got that, you just said, "The Spirit explained it to me this way...." Your explanation did not contain any reliable grounds to conclude that the Holy Spirit is "female" or that the Spirit is "mother"!! It seems to me therefore, that your theory is simply conjecture and supposition without any proof whatsoever!!!
Your only line of logic is very faulty! You said,"God created man in the image of God, he created them - male and female. If the image is male and female, then so is God."

~~~~~~~~~~~And what's faulty about that? All it means is that the words really mean what they say. If you can look in the mirror (your image) and see a male and a female, then it's a pretty sure bet that the real thing is also a male and a female.

"Here is how your logic breaks down: God also made man with a physical body formed of the dust of the ground. If your logic is valid then God also had a physical body before He created man! This is ridiculous!"

~~~~~~~~~~~So then I suppose it is ridiculous to think that Jesus had a physical body? And that he was also the first-born of all creation? It seems that Jesus fits this description to a tee, if you ask me.

"God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." So when God created man in His own image, He made man a spiritu