This passage, which encompasses 2 Thess 2:1-12, states that the antichrist must be revealed and the falling away must occur before our gathering together unto Christ at His second coming (Parousia). It does not say that a secret rapture occurs before the antichrist is revealed but rather that Christ comes after the falling away has taken place and the antichrist has been revealed and that Christ will destroy the 'man of sin' at His coming (Parousia). The antichrist must be present at Christ coming in order for the 'brightness of His coming' to destroy the antichrist.

Also, the word antichrist is mentioned only 5 times in scripture and all of those are in the Letters of John. There John describes the antichrist as * many * coming in the last time * going out from us (the church) * denying that Jesus is Christ * denying Father and Christ * denying Christ came in the flesh * a spirit * a deceiver but John does not say that the antichrist is a single, pagan man that comes after Christ gathers His own to Himself. He clearly says that the antichrists come from within the body of professed believers before the parousia!

I wonder if the authors of 'Left Behind' have this knowledge? Or are they simply interested in waxing "rich through the abundance of [Babylon's] delicacies."

Jeff Logan

PS. I know that some of you think doctrine is insignificant. But doctrine is teachings and the doctrines of Christ are teachings about Christ. If we save ourselves by giving our love to Christ then Okay, we don't need to know Christ in truth -- skip the teachings about Christ. But if Christ draws us to Himself, then it is very important to know all about Him and to know Him in truth. Else, how is He to draw us to Him if we never knew Him. I am glad that He has sent correspondence to us in the Bible so that we can read about Him and learn of Him. It reminds me of two people who start as pen-pals and end up falling in love with one another. Hopefully, as we correspond to each other on this listserver we too can learn to love each other even as Christ has loved us.

May God be praised in all we do,

My brother's wife, Kitty, never knew Jesus for the first 25 years of their marriage. When I visited Iowa last fall, she went out on a Sunday morning when she heard that I had not read any of this series and bought the first two books and sent them with me. I visited Mom and Pop, age 86 and retired from the IC ministry after more than fifty years, although he taught English at a Lutheran college, and he (a Shakespearean scholar) read both of those books in the 3 days I was there. Kitty gave me 6-7-8 for Christmas and Pop had book seven in the hospital when I went back in December. Two amputations, major morphine and pain, in January he died. I was with him as he was dying. It was one of the most beautiful moments of my life as the +ACI-peace that passeth all understanding+ACI- settled over him. I ran out, got the nurse and within seven minutes he was gone. She wanted to know how I knew to come get her, but the presence of Jesus in that room was so strong, everyone knew

In February Kitty was diagnosed with a brain tumor. They operated. It was malignant. Two days later she was gone, but I know where she is. The authors of the books are in error and will have to answer one day to God, but today I am thankful for every dime they are making. Even as the enemy is trying to lead people astray, the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of one man and one woman for whom I prayed for years to come to know Jesus face to face. So for me it's all a matter of perspective. I'm the one left behind. . .tears? yes rejoicing? yes+ACE- Regrets? Do I wish these books had never been written?

My wife's step-Mom recently bought and read this book and past it on to me. I did not read but only a few paragraphs. I am hoping to speak with her about this topic one day soon. That is my prayer.

As for all the responses? I agree with what has been said about Left Behind, the movie, by all the foregoing emailers. But there is something even more dangerous about this teaching that I didn't see mentioned yet. That is that this doctrine is teaching lost souls, millions of Christians, that if they 'miss the boat' the first go-around, they can catch it the second go-around. Do you see my point?

These books and movies are not poorly done at all. (Stay with me here!) They are exceptional works of art and deceit and have been carefully written so as to be the most effective tools of our enemy. They prey upon the human nature and its tendency to procrastinate anyway. They are basically saying to a deceived world that, 'It is okay. When the rapture occurs then you can get ready.' Do you see how that if this is believed then we will have a lot of careless Christians who are not watching and praying, as they should be, but actually eating and drinking until the very moment the last door on the only ship out is closed. Of course that Ship is Jesus. He is our Arc of Salvation.

But my point is that the human heart is already so eager to cherish the idol of procrastination and this false doctrine is a savory morsel and pleasing to the carnal mind. Even if the idea of a secret rapture is not whole-heartily embraced, the slightest taint of it cherished in the soul will have its impact on the life and might prove to be an inroad for Satan to get a foothold. No, this false teaching must be soundly dismissed as having any validity or truth and by so doing purge it from the mind as a thing that exalts itself and opposes Christ.

May the eyes of our hearts be opened to Christ so that all of our idols, including idleness, will be cast down...

Jeff Logan

Great post. I will reply with only two comments, but am interested in talking more about this as others weigh-in.

First, it is my understanding that the idea of a rapture as part of fundamental doctrine only came into vogue recently in church history - about 1825. The two prominent men who are 'credited' with the birth of modern millennialism are Edward Irving and J.N. Darby. Both these guys were big into preaching the pre-trib message and people were wound-up on this stuff.

Second, in both Mt 24 and Lk 17 Jesus says (paraphrase in my words) that the end days will be the same as the days of Noah, in that one will be taken and one left. This is a big verse for those pushing the rapture theology - pre, mid, or post tribulation.

Take a minute to read that passage to get the context. If you think about the days of Noah - everyone kept on partying and living up to the minute God opened the skies. Then, the evil were swept (taken) away and the Godly were left behind. One could argue the idea of any rapture at all is flawed and that the world will continue about its business up to the moment our Lord returns. At that point it is too late and the worldly will be swept away, leaving us with our Master.

I am not a bible scholar trained to read Greek texts and I am not certain about the rapture or how I feel about the various aspects of the end times. For me, it is enough to learn to watch and pray. If I could just get the watch and pray part down I would feel a lot better about taking it to the next level.

I would love to hear what others have learned on the issues Jeff brings up.

My favorite bit in the movie was after all the Christians were raptured outta there a few left behinders were in a church watching a special video the recently vacated pastor had made for folk like them to watch. "If you are watching this video its too late - we're outta here!" (Really, he was offering words of comfort.) The whole idea that a pastor would make a video for people 'left behind' to watch was too much for me. Another one man army, even now fighting the good fight from remote location after he has finished his tour of duty. Wow! What a guy. Superman. Support your local pastor!

Made me real glad I was a house churcher. Yeah - maybe just a little proud. Still have to work on that!

Did anyone else go see the movie?

I actually happen to like my fish bumber sticker! And my shirts and hats
etc.! I love to proudly show people who I am by what I am wearing thank you.
Us new age christians have wiped away all necessity to love others and now
all we have to do is walk past them and they'll get the idea!

Why waste all my time talking to people when I have church planning to
do? I've got Sunday school to think of, and our morning prayer meetings, not
to mention all the weekly christian activities to organize and attend. I'm
doing too many spiritual things to spend my time on something as mundane and
unproductive as talking to some one! So I just show my love with my money. Or
what my money can buy. Some can't afford the stuff in the Christian Book
Store, but that just means that they aren't good enough christains and so God
hasn't blessed them.

Duh! Why haven't people thought of this already? Anyways, I will continue
to wear my material name badge and profess my identity in the denomination
I'm a part of. That's the way God wants it right?

Also, I mean for all of us to tithe this sunday so that I and my fellow
leaders of the flock can go to miami for the summer. I will be evangilizing
of course, so do not spare your cash or you will be against God's will! While
I am gone you can all watch the wonderfully produced and doctrinally sound
movie "Left Behind"...

My Love, Your Leader,
Joel

I like this:

<proud. Still have to work on that!

Did anyone else go see the movie?

Mike>>

I did not see the movie, and am not really interested to see it. But we
have some friends that are really into it. Back in the seventies, we
questioned the pre-trib rapture among some fellow believers and were
almost considered heretics! Actually we were branded as heretics for
some time by some churches in our area. But that may have been our
churches fault for being too confrontational about it at the time.

Things seem to changing along these lines. The friends I mentioned were
having a weekly Bible study with our daughters in which we attend from
time to time. On one of the meeting nights when we were not there the
movie came up. My daughter plainly said that her mom and dad did not
agree with some of that stuff. Guess what? They accepted the differences
and admitted that we agreed upon the most important things, i.e.
obedience and faith in Christ.

That IS progress!

Dan and Brenda Beaty
Columbus, Ohio

(1) Cheaply done.
(2) Poor acting
(3) Commercially driven

It would have been best if the picture had never been produced. Did anyone notice if the Authors of the series received any credits for the movie? I could find none. I wonder why?

Yes, Jeff, what you have said makes much sense. Many of us have also come to the same conclusion. In any case, The Lords will will be done and we can write books, we can produce movies and we can teach error but still, the Lord's will be done. Our reality is still in the Lord, not in the things of this earth.

Jerry

I agree with your three assessments.

I was not planning to go see it, as I knew that it would be poorly done and full of warped ideas. I have a brother who is a graphic designer and we collaborate on projects from time to time. He called me and asked me if I wanted to see it with him to check out its production value and merits. We were both not surprised afterwards, but still disappointed in what Christians are trying to pedal to the world.

Has anyone here read any Rookmaaker? (sp?) Very good commentary on the arts and our faith.

Anyway ...

Regarding the commercially driven, just walk into most Christian bookstores these days and take a good hard look. We are becoming more effective and 'mature' in our ability to package and market our sub-culture. The sad thing is, and I am painting with broad strokes here, we are not known for our love anymore.

I do suspect that there is . . . oh I hate to say it . . . a conspiracy to bring down our nation. It may be demonic, or humanly planned. That's beyond my brain! But too many things are falling together to be happenstance.

A strategic part of this pattern is the fact that most Christians now will not lift a finger to come to the aid of our foundering nation. They are "waiting for the rapture". One preacher told me he wants it to get bad because the sooner it does, the sooner the Lord will come! Others say "you can't stop it; the Bible says it's all going to happen."

Yahshua's parting command was, "Occupy until come!" Anyone know what an occupation army does? It resides on enemy territory to maintain order and keep down resistance forces. When was that order rescinded? Where did we get our permission to go AWOL and let the enemy take the country back? Our forefathers clearly understood the command, and gave us this free nation. How brilliant of our enemy to penetrate our seminaries and disarm, with this false doctrine, the greatest army ever known -- His church!

For those who disagree, please don't be offended. This is only the opinion of one humble believer. If I'm wrong, may the Holy Spirit correct me. And YOU are free to do so as well.

I was glad to read that you're no longer a pre-mil
dispensationalist, but disheartened to find that
you've fallen for the other apostasy, namely:
preterism.

It appears, as in your post, that preterism makes
a disproportionately large focus on A.D. 70 for
doctrine.

One of the problems about preterism is the fact
that the book of Revelation was written c. A.D. 96.
History records that the Apostle John was banished
to the Isle of Patmos by the emperor Domitian (A.D.
81 to 96) in the fourteenth year of his reign, A.D.
95. Nero did not banish men to various places of
exile, but Domitian later did. So John's Revelation
4-22 must be seen to speak of things considerably
future in this age of grace and the unfolding
history of the messianic ekklesia. That is, until
the new leafy "fig tree" (Matt. 24:32)/reborn,
maturing nation of Israel (1948, 1967) introduces
the last forty years of scriptural testing to
early-2007 when the post-trib coming of our Lord
Jesus occurs (Matt. 24:21,29-31).

As Jesus said in Matt. 24:4,14: "...Take heed that
no man deceive you....this gospel of the kingdom
shall be preached in ALL the world for a witness
unto ALL nations; and then shall THE END come."
And this must be received and believed as "...the
time of THE END," (Dan. 12:4,9): A.D. 2007, NOT
A.D. 70.

To be continued....

Also, it's clear from Matt. 27:51 and Mark 15:38
that "...the veil of the temple was rent in twain
from the top to the bottom," coinciding with Christ's
crucifixion, God from above in A.D. 30 put an '...end
(to) the Old Testament or "Covenant"' (as per your
post). That is, NOT with the destruction of the Jewish
Temple, BUT rather with the destruction "...of the
temple of His body" (John 2:21); for Jesus had said,
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it
up" (John 2:19): contrary to preterism.

More could be said about the errors of preterism.

Thomas A. Newton

P.S.--There is reason to believe that the "great tribulation"
(Matt. 24:21; Rev. 2:22; 7:14) is due to begin almost any
time now, especially October 9, 2003 perhaps, but at the
latest by November 9, 2003, based on sidereal months with
a 42-month duration (Rev. 13:5) through the end of A.D. 2006.
More details, including 'who's who,' are available upon
request.

Thomas A. Newton

"I was reading in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, and I discovered something very interesting. Scripture says that the 'day of Christ' must be preceded by a 'falling away' and that the 'man of sin' must be revealed. As you read further you discover that this 'man of sin' is none other than the antichrist who 'opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.'
This passage, which encompasses 2 Thess 2:1-12, states that the antichrist must be revealed and the falling away must occur before our gathering together unto Christ at His second coming (Parousia). It does not say that a secret rapture occurs before the antichrist is revealed but rather that Christ comes after the falling away has taken place and the antichrist has been revealed and that Christ will destroy the 'man of sin' at His coming (Parousia). The antichrist must be present at Christ coming in order for the 'brightness of His coming' to destroy the antichrist"

Amen Jeff! You have it right. The so called Rapture and Revelation of Jesus Christ occur at the same time. The Bible scholars tell us that they are two separate events. If that were so we would have a Second and Third Coming of Jesus for His own. That they happen at the same time is supported by many other Scriptures especially the Gospels. This false teaching never made sense to me according to the Scriptures that Jeff mentioned. It is good to know that others are exposing this false doctrine that has been perpertrated by the Scholfield Bible.

Lew

Here is basicly my view:
Matthew 24 - Verse 29 is the same as the sixth seal in Revelation 6. ( “the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” ) see also Isa 13:10, Joe 2:10, Joe 2:31, Joe 3:15, Mar 13:24, Luk 21:25, Act 2:20, This event signals the day of the Lord which occurs in Matthew 24:30.

It must first be noted that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night ( 1Th 5:2, Mat 24:42-44).

The time preceding the day of the Lord shall be like the days of Noah ( Mat 24:37, Luk 17:26,).

Christians, however, should not be caught off guard. We know what to look for. ( Mat 24:32-33, 1Th 5:4).

Christ descends from heaven on the day of the Lord and is coming in the clouds ( Mat 24:30, Mar 13:26, Rev 1:7).

The day of the Lord is a day of deliverance and destruction ( Isaiah 2, Isa 13:6, Joe 1:15, Joe 3:16, Oba 1:15-17, Rev 6:17).

The day of the Lord is not the same event as the appearing of the Lord at the final battle. The day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night; people are as in the days of Noah. The time before the final battle is a time of judgment and wrath ( Rev 8,9,16). On the day of the Lord Christ is riding in the clouds. At the final battle Christ is riding on a white horse. On the day of the Lord Christ gathers his elect. On the day of the final battle His army clothed in white linen comes with Him riding white horses.

The rapture occurs on the day of the Lord ( Mat 24:31, Mat 24:40-41, 1Th 4:16, Rev 7:9 - This is likely the raptured saints since John sees them after the sixth seal is mentioned and they are from every tongue, tribe, and nation and they come out of the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is described by Jesus as that time immediately following the abomination of desolation ( Mat 24). This Great Tribulation is specifically against God’s elect by the heathen. The people of Israel are living in peace and safety (though false) due to the covenant given by the Anti-christ ( Dan 9:27).
The tribulation of those days is cut short by the appearing of Christ for the sake of the elect ( Mat 24:29 ).

The day of the Lord occurs after the apostasy and after the Anti-christ is revealed ( 2Th 2:3, Mat 24:12-30)

Just something about the Left Behind series....the book makes it appear that you can take the mark and still be a christian--absolutly fasle...My opinion: I do not support the books either in the name of entertainment or whatever...it is a false teaching.