Are we as Christians really ready to step up to the plate?
Are we really ready to lose everything for the sake of the body?
Are we ready to give all to help in a national emergency?

Are we ready to deal with a massive and coordinated attack by 'fifth-column' islamic insurgents?

Have we really been thinking about what is next?

(Consider the book of acts chapters 2 and 4 before you lauch your answer!)

Come on! Weigh in! This will be good to discuss openly!

You have asked a number of excellent questions which need to be seriously considered by all Christians!

You asked:"With the current 'anti-Christian' bias in the media, the educational system and most sectors of our government where do you see the future of the 'church'?"

I was taught and embraced the pre-trib rapture view of end times events for most of my life. Such a view does not at all prepare believers for times of great tribultation but rather falsely promises them an escape from such! That particular end-time view (like many pet doctrines) is never ever stated in scripture, but is rather clearly contradicted by many clear statements of scripture. So, from scripture, I am convinced that the church will go through the entire great tribulation described in Matthew 24 (which could include any or all of the scenarios which you mentioned). Only AFTER the great tribulation are the elect all gathered from one end of heaven to the other and from the uttermost part of the earth. (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27). Also Luke 21:7-28 outlines the events which will all take place prior to our "redemption drawing nigh".

You wrote:"I have watched the IC's I previously attended move towards the 'pablum' of PC inspirational messages that are designed to be motivational in a non-offending manner. I have seen the 'deadness' permiate these institutions rapidly and successfully. I have now seen the move towards nationalism and patriotism become a priority due to current world events. What if another Liberal Democrat gets into office? What if a few suitcase nukes get set off in America? What if the bible is outlawed as homophobic hate literature? What if 'Church' becomes illegal? Well, at least non-government sponsored ones! Are we as Christians really ready to step up to the plate? Are we really ready to lose everything for the sake of the body? Are we ready to give all to help in a national emergency? Are we ready to deal with a massive and coordinated attack by 'fifth-column' islamic insurgents? Have we really been thinking about what is next?

Those like myself, who have swallowed the pre-trib teaching for years without checking to see if scripture actually taught it, will be very disillusioned when such events come upon them because they have fully expected to be raptured before the tribulation! But if believers embrace the scriptural teaching of the passages I've mentioned above as well as I Cor 15:52 which tells us that we can expect the Lord at the last trump (not prior to 7 other trumpets sounded DURING the time of great tribulation) we will be much more effectively prepared to EXPECT such events BEFORE the Lord returns!

I will start the first volley:
As far as the last trump concept... I would invite you to visit the Jews for Jesus website. There is an explanation of the the feast of Trumpets and the 'Last Trump' and it's significance.

Brother, it made sense to me too except I could never explain to others where we came up with the concept of a "seven year tribulation". When I got checking scripture, I found that no such period is ever mentioned in the Book! Every prophecy of scripture that mentions a specific time period that has ever been fulfilled has been fulfilled in the very same time period as it was prophesied. If the prophecy of 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are actually to be fulfilled in 70 periods of SEVEN YEARS this would be the ONLY PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS FULFILLED IN DIFFERENT UNITS OF TIME THAN IT WAS ACTUALLY PROPHESIED!

Every single commentary which I have read that suggests that Daniel's weeks are actually periods of 7 years REFERS TO (BUT DOES NOT QUOTE) GENESIS 29:27 to try to bolster the idea that a week can be seven years! But ask any child to actually read this verse and they will tell you that the week and the seven years are two totally different periods! The week was the week of the wedding feast for Leah. (See also Judges 9:2) but the seven years was the time Jacob would again work for Laban for Rachel!

Every single time that the Hebrew word SHABUA is found in scripture it designates a literal week of seven days! It is never used, as many claim, of "heptads" or "sevens" of any other item or unit of time than that of a literal week of SEVEN DAYS! There are other words which are translated "seven" which are used of other things, but SHABUA is a very specific kind of word that is used exclusively in scripture of periods of seven literal days.

The pre-trib doctrine is also based on a number of other doctrines found nowhere in scripture. These include the following:
-"the imminent" or "any moment" return of Christ -the teaching that no prophecy of scripture remains to be fulfilled prior to the coming of the Lord in the air for the church. Such does not fit with Luke 21:28; Acts 3:20,21; I Cor.15:52 etc
-the "secret rapture" of the church". Such does not fit with Rev.1:7
-the "u-turn" of the Lord who is supposed to descend to the clouds and then take a u-turn and return to heaven with those who have been caught up to meet him in the air. This does not fit with Acts 1:9-11 and Zech.14:5. His return would be in like manner as His departure. One of the features was that he ascended up from the Mount of Olives into heaven and thus His return will be from heaven back to the Mount of Olives!
-the doctrine that the church is with the Lord in heaven for 7 years prior to His return to the earth. This is in denial of the fact that the redemtion of our bodies FOLLOWS EVENTS WHICH OCCUR AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION! Matt.24, Mark 13 and Luke 21:28.

Every one of these doctrines is based on assumptions, deductions and conclusions that are contrary to plain statements of scripture and not one of them is ever stated in the very words of scripture!

Furthermore, through Psalm 12:5; Proverbs 30:5,6 and I Corinthians 2:12,13 I came to realize that doctrines which are scriptural are stated in words of scripture! The pre-trib. rapture doctrine (like the doctrines of the fall, depravity, unconditional election, purgatory, infant baptism, substitution, justification by faith alone, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, 5 or 7 dispensations, the covenant of works, the covenant of grace and a host of others) must be stated in words which man's wisdom teaches because they are not stated in words which the Holy Ghost teaches!

You also wrote:"I would like to invite you to review the scriptures for me that you use to set up your position regarding your post trib philosophy."

Dear brother, the "post trib" or "after the tribulation" teaching of the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints is not a philosophy that must be "set up"! Rather it is one which is clearly stated in the words of scripture plus or minus nothing.

Please read such statements in Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28. The word for "redemption" in Luke 21:28 is the same word APOLUTROSIS (full redemption) which is used of "the redemption of our body" in Romans 8:23. So Romans 8:23 tells us the fact and Luke 21:28 tells us the time frame when it will occur.

Regarding "the last trump"...I don't know and have not yet been able to find out what the Jews for Jesus web site is. But this I do know- the trumpets of scripture which are mentioned most often are sounded by God when he comes down upon a mountain. The first trumpet of scripture was sounded when God came down upon Mount Sinai and is mentioned in 5 texts of scripture: Exodus 19:13,16,19; 20:18 and Hebrews12:19. The last trumpet of scripture is sounded when Christ comes down upon the Mount of Olives. This trumpet is also mentioned in 5 texts of scripture : Isaiah 27:13; Zechariah 9:14; Matthew 24:31; I Cor15:52 and I Thesalonian 4:16.
Every other trumpet of scripture is sounded by either men or angels. I do not yet know what the Jews for Jesus web site suggests about the feast of trumpets and the last trump, but these trumpets were all sounded by men, but that last trump is the trump of God!

There are many many other facts of scripture to demonstrate the truth of what I've suggested to you, but trust this will suffice for now. I welcome questions, comments or objections of any kind to what I've presented here. But basicly, I believe the church has never been promised escape from any kind of tribulation including the great tribulation. Rather scripture clearly distinguishes between tribulation (troubles which come indiscriminitely upon saint and sinner) and wrath (the wrath of God is always reserved exlusively for unregenerate people.) So we can fully expect tribulation but are assured that we will not experience the wrath of God.

Bruce: I think you are probably well aware that the Book of Revelation is NOT a consistently chronological unfolding of events! For example: The actual time of Christ's return and events that immediately precede it are referred to in 1:7; 3:11; 6:12-17; 11:11-18; 14:14-20; 17:17-21; 19:1-9; 19:11-21.

Each of these passages deals with a different aspect of the same coming so it is clear that the book is NOT a continuous and chronological record.

Ed:"So I remember being told that there is the restraining force of the Holy Spirit who indwells the Church which holds back the Antichrist.(2Th 2:7) Which for me makes sense that the Church would have to be removed or we would come against the Antichrist with prayers of faith."

Bruce: The above teaching to which you refer is a false assumption that has been popularized by many but is not true to the actual scriptural text! First of all, "the Antichrist" (a specific person, or world leader) is NEVER found in scripture! The word "antichrist" is found only 4 times in scripture in I John 2,4 and II John 1. Where it refers to "many antichrists", the "spirit of antichrist" and the nature of those who are "anti" or "against" Christ. They do not confess but deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Secondly, the person in view in II Thessalonians 2:3-9 is "the man of sin" and NOT the Holy Spirit of God! The "mystery of iniquity" , according to Paul, was "already at work" (v.7) Mysteries in scripture are always things which have not been revealed, which are yet "under cover" or are not yet "manifested". The man of sin has a vested interest in not manifesting himself for who he really is! He will be the ultimate "under cover agent"! He will do all in his power to keep his true identity secret from the world as long as he is able. The Holy Spirit of God is never ever in scripture spoken of as "letting" or "withholding", or "holding down" something. It is His job to reveal, to uncover, to make manifest etc. But it is the man of sin who always wants to keep iniquity mysterious, hidden, undercover and unidentified! Altough he will be a prominent public figure throughout the time of great tribulation, he will not be manifested for who he really is! He will be a great deceiver. Only when the Lord Jesus comes from heaven in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (II Thess 1:7,8) will the man of sin be revealed for who he really is! In other words, the revelation (manifestation) of the Lord Jesus for who He really is and the revelation (manifestation) of the man of sin for who he really is WILL BE SIMULTANEOUS!! The latter will be destroyed with the brightness of the coming of the former! (II Thess 2:8) The man of sin will "let"/withhold/hold down the manifestation of the great mystery of iniquity until he (the man of sin) is taken out of the way (II Thess.2:7)when the Lord Jesus returns to earth.

Ed:"Many of the non-pre-tribbers use the scripture that he (The antichrist) makes war with the saints and overcomes them. But my take on that is that people will actually come to faith after the rapture because they will have known someone who was 'affected' by it."

Bruce:This too is a common but unscriptural teaching! Where does scripture teach that saints from earth will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air AND THEN PROCEED UP TO HEAVEN while others are left to the tribulations of earth??? Rather, when the Lord Jesus is descending to earth AFTER THE TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION (MATT.24:29-31), we are caught up to meet Him in the air and then come with Him as He descends the rest of the way to the Mount of Olives destroying His enemies in His wrath as He comes. (see Zech.14:1-5)

The "saints", with whom Satan makes war and whom He overcomes and kills during the time of great tribulation, the remnant of Israel's seed which keep the commandments of God will be US, the church! It will be the true church which will experience the wrath of Satan during the great tribulation time. See Daniel 7:21-27 and Revelation 12 but the wrath of God is reserved for the unconverted who do not obey the gospel.

Ed:"Anyway, if I am wrong then it will be interesting to see how the Lord protects us during the Vial and bowl judgments if we are not destined for wrath. I always saw the rapture like Noah's ARK-floating above the trouble not immersed in it. As an aside, Enoch was taken, Elijah went up in whirlwind and Phillip was 'snatched' and found himself in Azotus after baptizing the Eunich from Ethiopia. I just don't have a problem with getting outta here!"

Bruce: Brother, you are right in that just as Noah was protected from the wrath of God poured out on the wicked in the flood. But notice, Noah and his family were not spared FROM THE FLOOD! They went right through it. But they (the righteous) were spared from the wrath of God. So too, we (the church) will go through the great tribulation (we are never promised escape from tribulation of any kind!) but we will be completely spared from the wrath of God. The dfay of the Lord's coming from heaven is the great day of His wrath. It is precisely then, when we are caught up to be with Him in the air, that He pours out His wrath upon His enemies as He descends to the earth!

Ed: "I do like the feast of trumpets explanation from the Jews for Jesus. How Rosh Hoshana is called 'the day that no man knows the day or the hour'. Because the New Year is a wait for the first sliver of the moon and one visible star nearby thus starting their lunar year. Even Jesus mentioned this day as a sign of the coming because it is something we have to wait for and that God controls. (Matt.24:36 and Mark 12:32) Well, there are my thoughts. Let me know what you think."

Bruce:As I mentioned in my last post, the trumpets of the feast of trumpets are sounded by men at a very specific time of the year, but the last trump is the trump of God and it is indeed THE LAST TRUMP! There will be no more trumpets sounded after the last one!

The belief that our redemption (the redmption of our bodies) takes place some 7 years PRIOR TO the end of the great tribulation is absolutely contrary to scripture! That redemption (APOLUTROSIS, Strong's # 629) which we are promised DOES NOT OCCUR BEFORE BUT RATHER AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION! (See Luke 21:28; Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:14 and 4:30)

In closing, brother, if these things still do not fit (in your own mind with what you know of scripture) can you clearly demonstrate from scriptural statements:
-the existence of a coming period of 7 years of tribulation?
-that when the saints are caught up, the Lord Jesus takes a "u-turn" and all return to heaven from the clouds instead of coming all the way from heaven to the earth?
-that our redemption precedes the events of Matthew 24:29-31 and Luke 21:28 etc?

I look forward to continued discussion and consideration of these vital truths relative to the future prospects of the church as we await the coming of the Lord.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Just like the Jews who couldn't understand how the Messiah would be the ruler and the suffering servant? It is because prophecy is multi-leveled and inter woven with-in the word.

I reviewed Strong's concordance and you are sort of correct about the word Shabua except even strong's suggests that in the context of Daniel's prophecy it meant 7 years.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Who are these 'Saints'?

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Who is restraining the Wicked one whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of his mouth? The Wicked one who comes after the working of Satan (The Anti-Christ)
You see what is missing is the end of the dispensation... Jesus ascended the Holy Spirit descended and conversely when the Holy Spirit ascends 'taken out of the way' then Jesus descends again.

I am beginning to understand the problem. You have been shown a method to refute the pre-trib rapture using some of the very scriptures that prove it!
What I want to hear from you is why you think the saints must go through the tribulation? Must we be purged or tried or punished for some reason? I we not worthy to escape the time of trouble? Haven't our sins been washed by the blood?

You wrote:" I would like to know the name of the teacher that has taught you this doctrine (the post-tribulation catching up of saints)."

Dear brother, no human teacher has taught me this, but the Holy Spirit has been the teacher and the words of scripture have been His text! If we ask questions and seek answers to those questions in the very words of scripture, we will come to no other conclusion than this on end time events! For example:
-Question: When can believers expect the Lord to give them rest from trouble?
Answer: II Thessalonians 1:6-10
-Question: When can believers expect their redemption?
Answer: Luke 21:28
-Question: When will believers who have died be raised, and when will living believers be changed from corruptibility to incorruptibility and from mortality to immortality?
Answer: I Cor.15:52
-Question: When will God gather His elect from the earth and heaven with the sound of a trumpet?
Answer: Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
-Question: What events must PRECEDE the day of Christ (Phil:6)?
Answer: II Thessalonians 2:1-3 (The REVELATION of the man of sin, is the very same word used for the REVELATION of Jesus Christ. It is a word that indicates the manifestation or unveiling of one for who they really are!)
-Question: How long must the Lord Jesus remain in heaven before He returns?
Answer: Acts 3:21
-Question: When the Lord Jesus does descend from heaven, what is His destination? Does He descend to the clouds and then return to heaven, or does He descend all the way to the earth?
Answer: Acts 1:9-11; Zech.14:5
-Question: When the Lord Jesus comes in the clouds, will His coming be secret (observed only by believers), or public (observed by all)?
Answer: Revelation 1:7

Brother, could I ask you to write a series of similar questions which are answered by the very words of scripture which would lead anyone to conclude that the Lord Jesus' return is IMMINENT (no prophecy
of scripture remaining which must precede it), SECRET (observed only by believers), or PRE-
TRIBULATIONAL (prior to the time of great tribulation) etc?

Or, if you were to write pamphlets entitled:
-"ALL THAT SCRIPTURE STATES ABOUT THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION:"
-"ALL THAT SCRIPTURE STATES ABOUT A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE:"
-"ALL THAT SCRIPTURE STATES ABOUT SAINTS ESCAPING THE TIME OF GREAT TRIBULATION:"... what statements of scripture would you include in your pamphlets???

You also wrote:"First, Revelations is a Chronological context in the sense that it was written in the order of occurance. I cannot find a theologian that states otherwise."

Dear brother, if this is true, the coming of the Lord when every eye shall see Him is about the earliest event recorded in the Book of the Revelation. See 1:7. Do you actually mean to tell me that all the other events prophesied in the Revelation are SUBSEQUENT to that event???!!! The end of Rev.6 speaks of the great day of His wrath. Does your understanding of the events prophesied in the Book then lead you to believe that the two witnesses of chapter 11 actually prophesy for 1260 days SUBSEQUENT to the events prophesied in chapter 6??

Then you wrote:"Secondly, you will have a difficult time refuting the scripture in Rev. 19 that states the bride has made herself ready and is invited to the marriage supper then there is an aside where John mistakenly worships a fellow Saint then he looks and beholds Christ on a white horse dealing with the antichrist! So in your opinion the Lord comes down and has the dinner on earth? Where does it say that? He does however return to earth with the armies of heaven who are arrayed in white robes which was noted for the bride at the wedding feast 'in heaven.' "

Just a few observations about Revelation 19:
-a number of events take place in heaven and around the throne, see verses 1,4, 5, 11, 14,17. But the events (the marriage and the marriage supper) are not recorded!
-all we are told is that THE MARRIAGE IS COME, HIS WIFE HAS MADE HERSELF READY (verse 7), SHE IS GRANTED WHITE GARMENTS (verse 8), and THOSE WHO ARE CALLED TO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER ARE BLESSED! (verse 9)
-we are not told WHEN the marriage takes place (although I would find it difficult to see the marriage precede the gathering of the saints from heaven and earth which does NOT happen until AFTER the great tribulation! II Thess.2:1-3 DOES tell us that our gathering together unto Him on the day of Christ does not take place until AFTER a great falling away and AFTER the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed.)
-we are not told WHERE the marriage or the marriage supper take place!
-the one who has made herself ready is not called a bride, but a wife. verse 7

I don't believe I ever said where the marriage supper would take place or when! I do not yet see enough evidence in scripture to make such claims!

You wrote:"I reviewed Strong's concordance and you are sort of correct about the word Shabua except even strong's suggests that in the context of Daniel's prophecy it meant 7 years."

If you were to check out every single ocurrence of SHABUA, you would see that I was entirely right on this matter of the usage of this word in the scriptures! Strong is occasionally guilty of inserting interpretation into his concordance which is not meritted by the text. If Daniel and the Holy Spirit had meant " 7 years", the word SHABUA, would have been the wrong term to use!!!! Who is to be regarded as most reliable as to the choice of words in a scriptural text? The Holy Spirit and the original writer, or commentators who were born a few thousand years to late to have anything to say in the matter???

You asked:"Who are these 'Saints' of Jude 1:14,15?

They are the ones who come with Christ. Some (those who have died) come from heaven and some (those yet alive) come from the earth to the clouds and then all come with Him to the earth, to the Mount of Olives. (Zech.14:5)

Re. II Thess.2:6-9, you asked me:"Who is restraining the Wicked one whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of his mouth? The Wicked one who comes after the working of Satan (The Anti-Christ)."

Dear brother, scripture does NOT say that "the wicked one is restrained"!!! He is the one that is restraining the truth about himself! He is the wicked one and yet he shows himself AS GOD!!! (v.4) He will not reveal himself for who he really is, he rather deceives as many as possible for as long as he can! But he will be revealed (manifested) in his time. (v.6)

You wrote:"You see what is missing is the end of the dispensation... Jesus ascended the Holy Spirit descended and conversely when the Holy Spirit ascends 'taken out of the way' then Jesus descends again."

Ed, where do you get the idea of "the end of the dispensation"?? From what scriptural usage of the word "dispensation" do you derive this idea?? Who has taught you "dispensationalism"? Is it a scriptural concept taught by scriptural statements and scriptural usage of the word "dispensation"?? Scripture NEVER teaches that when the Holy Spirit ascends, the Lord Jesus will descend!! But scripture does teach that the Lord can only descend from heaven AFTER MANY EVENTS CLEARLY FORETOLD IN SCRIPTURE! (See above the scriptures I've already noted.)

Finally you wrote:"I am beginning to understand the problem. You have been shown a method to refute the pre-trib rapture using some of the very scriptures that prove it! What I want to hear from you is why you think the saints must go through the tribulation? Must we be purged or tried or punished for some reason? I we not worthy to escape the time of trouble? Haven't our sins been washed by the blood? I await your answer, Ed"

Ed, scripture nowhere "proves" a doctrine which it never states! A pre-tribulation rapture or catching up of saints is never stated in the Book! So no scriptural writer ever saw any need of "proving" a doctrine that was not a scriptural one to begin with!

Regarding your questions relative to tribulation:
-tribulation (trouble) is actually good for us! "Tribulation worketh patience, and patience experience, and experience hope, and hope maketh not ashamed because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given unto us." To illutrate this point, I would just ask you, where in the world is the church of Jesus Christ the strongest and healthiest?? In places like N. America where we (so far) have faced very little tribulation? OR in countries where Christians constantly face persecution, and trouble of every kind for simply being loyal to Christ? Ease and materialism are far more damaging to Christian testimony than tribulation!!!
-tribulation of saints is NEVER for punishment! Nor does tribulation have anything to do with washing away of sin!!! All of our punishment was meted out on Christ at Calvary!
-When millions of saints down through the ages have had to pass through horrific tribulation, persecution, martyrdom etc, what makes any of us in this day and age think that we are "worthy to escape the time of trouble"??? Scripture clearly teaches that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" Acts 14:22. But we have been "sold a bill of goods" by dispensational teachers which have not derived their doctrine of tribulation from scripture, but have tickled the ears of Chriustians who love to hear that they won't have to face tribulation!!!! A word study or simply reading the 22 verses of scripture where "tribulation" is found in scripture would be a real "eye opener" for folks who swallow such writings as the "Left Behind " series without searching the scriptures whether these things are so!! Acts 17:11 What a rude awakening is soon to be the portion of multitudes who have been taught such an escapist doctrine!! This is my main reason for not remaining silent on this subject! Vast multitudes of Christians are being rocked to sleep in the false confidence that it is not God's will for them to ever face tribulation!!

I trust this will encourage a few at least to begin to search the scriptures to see whether these things are so.

You wrote:"Bruce I am interested in why you answered my original post, which spoke nothing of the 'rapture', in the manner that you did. Were you seeing something in my words that I did not intend to be there?"

In your original post you asked:"With the current 'anti-Christian' bias in the media, the educational system and most sectors of our government where do you see the future of the 'church'?"

Anything that is "anti-christian" is actually "anti-Christ" (opposed to Christ). In any society that is opposed to Christ, Christians can expect to be persecuted and as opposition to Christ increases, so will persecution.

I believe that the things of which you spoke may very well be precursors of the all out opposition to Christ that will be full-blown during the great tribulation. I have believe for a number of years now that we are going to see increasingly difficult days, as believers, and that we need to be prepared intellectually, emotionally and above all, spiritually for the very difficult times which we may be called to face if the great tribulation should come in our life time.

You wrote:"I have watched the IC's I previously attended move towards the 'pablum' of PC inspirational messages that are designed to be motivational in a non-offending manner.
I have seen the 'deadness' permiate these institutions rapidly and successfully.

(Is this moving in the direction of the great apostacy or "falling away" of II Thess.2:3??)

You continued:"I have now seen the move towards nationalism and patriotism become a priority due to current world events.
What if another Liberal Democrat gets into office?
What if a few suitcase nukes get set off in America?
What if the bible is outlawed as homophobic hate literature?
What if 'Church' becomes illegal? Well, at least non-government sponsored ones!"

(Could these political, military, societal and religious scenarios in our present world be the beginnings of great trouble for God's people in the very near future?)

Then you asked:"Are we as Christians really ready to step up to the plate?
Are we really ready to lose everything for the sake of the body?
Are we ready to give all to help in a national emergency?"

I was really impressed that someone was actually asking such questions! Most dispensationalists and pre-trib rapturists seem to be putting their heads in the sand believing that they will escape all serious world troubles because they will be raptured first. So the fact that you asked such questions really encouraged me because I believe that, in view of what scripture clearly tells us about the great tribulation,...we need to be aware and prepared in mind and heart to stand for Christ come what may!

I do not have any clear sense of trends in current world events and how they will affect us, the church, in the near future. So when you asked, "Where do you see the future of the church?", my mind went immediately to what scripture says relative to the church in God's end-time schedule of events. So while the rapture and tribulation may not have been on your mind as you asked the question, these things were what came immediately to mine! I hope this discussion will prompt many to seriously search out these things and to come to scripturally stated beliefs about what their future as Christians.

[Brother, it made sense to me too except I could never explain to others where we came up with the concept of a "seven year tribulation". When I got checking scripture, I found that no such period is ever mentioned in the Book! Every prophecy of scripture that mentions a specific time period that has ever been fulfilled has been fulfilled in the very same time period as it was prophesied. If the prophecy of 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are actually to be fulfilled in 70 periods of SEVEN YEARS this would be the ONLY PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS FULFILLED IN DIFFERENT UNITS OF TIME THAN IT WAS ACTUALLY PROPHESIED!]

For which I respond:
Please give me your explanation of these scriptures:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

[69 x 7= 483_ the number of years from the time of Nehemiah rebuilding Jerusalem until Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem]

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[1290 days divided by 360= 3 ½ years (Jews had 30 day month)! One half ‘week’ from verse 9:27….

Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

[I was always told that the bible interprets the bible so I found these verses in opposition to your anti- 7 year tribulation view. The angel's interpretation makes it quite clear that when he says 'week' he means periods of seven years.]

Secondly,
There is the parable of the ten virgins and the wedding feast:

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Granted, it is a parable but the Lord always conveyed difficult concepts as parables.
I remember you saying that God would not leave Christians behind, and of that I agree but it is Him who knows who is a Christian or not.
It said that the foolish virgins didn't have the oil they needed. I didn't understand this until I remembered that 'oil' has always been a symbol of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.[He will restrain until He is taken out of the way?]2TH 2:7
The foolish virgins had no oil.
"2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
If these virgins had oil (Holy Spirit) they would be known of God because He indwelt them.

Also I have noticed from a lot of postings that the HCers by and large are not pre-tribers is that because it is associated with the IC or because nobody has really bothered to look into the doctrine.
As far as your attack at the imminent return, well I guess I will have to look into that next.
Ed

Ps. I don't mind if we disagree Bruce, this is not a life shattering issue. I just can't leave these scriptures hanging out there and ignore them.

You wrote:"Please give me your explanation of these scriptures: Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [69 x 7= 483_ the number of years from the time of Nehemiah rebuilding Jerusalem until Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem]"

Ed, are you sure about this 483 years? Have you researched this first hand or just believed what someone has written about it? Sir Robert Anderson wrote what many believe is "iron clad proof" of the "week is seven years" theory and that the 483 years betweenthose two events is accurate to the very day! Anderson states 5 or 6 principles of scriptural interpretation in his book and then goes about to violate every last one of them in the very same book! Many of his calculations are incomplete, false, or do not go by his own stated rules. By the time I was finished reading the book and checking all of his calculations, I was convinced that he had come to scripture determined to prove a theory and cared not that he was knowingly deceiving his readers! He claims that his calculations work out precisely, but many are off by not just days, but by months and years!! By the way, dispensationalists who speak of Daniel's 70 weeks as being 490 years refer often to "69 weeks" and an indefinite period between the 69th and the 70th. Did you realize that scripture never even refers to 69 weeks??!! It refers to THREE PERIODS: 7 WEEKS, 62 WEEKS, AND 1 WEEK. If there can be an indefinite period of time between the 69th and the 70th week, why can there not be an indefinite period between the 7TH and the 8TH weeks? I believe that each one of these periods were and will be literal weeks of 7 days.

You continued:"Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [1290 days divided by 360= 3 ½ years (Jews had 30 day month)! One half ‘week’ from verse 9:27…."

Ed,are you sure that 1290 days equals 3.5 years of 360 days? Whoever told you this outright lied to you! Their calculations were 30 days, or a whole month off! 3.5 x 360 = 1260 days! Also, are you sure that the months on any Jewish calendar are 30 day months? Are you sure that any Jewish year had 360 days? Such a notion as this really concludes that Jews know absolutely nothing about astronomy, or solar and lunar cycles! Do you realize that if anyone operated with a calendar with 360 days that in just 35 years, their year would be absolutely backwards! January would actually be in June and the time of year that should be winter would actually be summer!!! (35 years x 5.25 missing days each year = 183.75 days out of sync!!!) In actual fact, the Jewish calendar has a cycle of 19 years. The length of the months ranges from 28 to 30 days and 7 out of the 19 years has an extra intercallary month. So the average length of Jewish year is 365.25 days (not 360 days)!!!

You continued:"Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. [I was always told that the bible interprets the bible so I found these verses in opposition to your anti- 7 year tribulation view. The angel's interpretation makes it quite clear that when he says 'week' he means periods of seven years.]

Brother, the Bible DOES interpret itself! But the angel said nothing at all about the weeks being 7 years!! 1335 days is not 3.5 years! 3.5 x 365 is 1277.5 days! (only 57.5 days off!) Or if you use "years" of 360 days, 3.5 x 360 is 1260! Only 75 days off!! Furthermore, whenever inspired writers spoke of periods of days, they never calculated in months or years or hours! The time was calculated in the very unit of measurement stated! So beware of those who say that Biblically prophesied period of days were actually periods of years, or of those who say that Biblically prophesied periods of weeks were actually periods of years!! You wrote:"Secondly, There is the parable of the ten virgins and the wedding feast: Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish. Mat 25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. Granted, it is a parable but the Lord always conveyed difficult concepts as parables. I remember you saying that God would not leave Christians behind, and of that I agree but it is Him who knows who is a Christian or not. It said that the foolish virgins didn't have the oil they needed. I didn't understand this until I remembered that 'oil' has always been a symbol of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.[He will restrain until He is taken out of the way?]2TH 2:7 The foolish virgins had no oil. "2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." If these virgins had oil (Holy Spirit) they would be known of God because He indwelt them."

Brother, I agree with all that you wrote here until you referred to II Thess 2:7 as if it referred to the Holy Spirit! Other than commentators you have read that teach that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, what scriptural statements have convinced you, personally, that such is the case??? I believe that the virgins who have no oil simply are people who are not saved!

You wrote:"Also I have noticed from a lot of postings that the HCers by and large are not pre-tribers is that because it is associated with the IC or because nobody has really bothered to look into the doctrine."

Brother, the doctrines of the virgin birth of Christ, everlasting destruction of those who know not God, salvation through faith etc etc are associated with many IC's but we don't reject them because of association! We accept them because they are stated in the very words of scripture. It is precisley because the pre- trib rapture doctrine is NEVER EVER STATED IN WORDS OF SCRIPTURE, that I reject it! In actual fact, every person who embraces the pre- trib rapture doctrine has done so because THEY have have "not really bothered to look into the doctrine" by searching the scriptures daily, like the Bereans of old, to see if those things are so!

You concluded:"As far as your attack at the emminent return well I guess I will have to look into that next. Ed Ps. I don't mind if we disagree Bruce, this is not a life shattering issue. I just can't leave these scriptures hanging out there and ignore them."

I wholeheartedly agree with you, brother! Any doctrine that is contradictory to ANY statement of scripture is incorrect, or incomplete. Truly scriptural doctrines are consistent with ALL of scripture. This cannot be said of the "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine, the "7 year tribulation" doctrine, the "secret rapture" doctrine, the "imminent return of Christ" doctrine, the "Lord Jesus takes a u-turn and returns to heaven after meeting us in the air" doctrine", or the "Christians are exempt from the tribulation" doctrine etc etc. So I would encourage you to search out every scripture that in any way touches on these end-time issues. The more you do, the more you will see impossible contradictions between scripture and such humanly manufactured doctrines as the above. Please keep us posted if you find the imminent return of Christ to be a doctrine that is taught anywhere in scripture.

Also, the fact that the 69th week isn't specifically mentioned is for the simple reason that the 70th week is mentioned. If you take it that Messiah is cut off and unable to finish his ministry as the rightful King of the Jews (because Jesus was rejected and not accepted a week after His triumphal entry through the East gate) and that God has granted Satan (and by default the Beast, the False prophet and any 'Antichrist/Man of Sin type figure) that period of the 70th week so that he can be exposed for what he is beyond all reasonable doubt, then I believe that Ed has a point, and maybe even a sustainable arguement.

I spent some time amongst a group of Charismatic 'post tribbers' back in the early 1990's, and all the fruit they produced from their doctrine, was that of hopelessness in the face of great convulsions in the earth, and a certain laxity in Christian living standards. They believed that any imperfections in their makeup 'would be taken care of during the tribulation, as the persecution would draw them closer and closer to the Lord.'

I can only judge their doctrine (belief) by its fruit (what they do as an outworking of that doctrine) and the Post Tribulation view also means that the false prophets of our day (C. Peter Wagner, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Francis Frangapanzie and many others, who also hold to a post trib scenario - most of the Hyper Faith ilk) are the very ones who imported deceptions such as the Toronto Blessing into the body of Christ just as their deceptive forefathers had introduced the false 'Latter Rain' doctrines back in the 1940's and 1950's.

What about Revelation 3:10, which I noticed didn't even rate a mention from you? And what of that recently discovered document (not scripture) entitled the "Pseudo Ephraim" which purports to teach a pre trib rapture as far back as the fourth century AD? The early church certainly new of the concept at least that far back, and even further if you look at Revelation chapter 4, where john (representing the endtime church) is taken up into heaven, and we then do not see the church mentioned again until Revelation 19.

Matthew 24 and similar passages are for the Jews, not the church, and Daniel is quoted by Jesus in terms of endtime events, but relevant to the Jews, not to us. Seeing that we do not meet in temples built by human hands (not anymore...) we can't possibly be affected by an "abomination of desolation" in either the times of the early church or even now. God always deals with the church and Israel separately. Next, someone will be telling us that Israel is finished, and that we are 'spiritual Israel' and all the promises and judgements meant for them will be visited on us. The great tribulation fulfills two purposes. First it brings the nation of Israel to her knees, and reveals Jesus Christ to her as her Messiah. Secondly, it brings forth the judgement of God on a wicked and unrepentant world system, (as in the days of Noah) that has consistently rejected God and His saviour Jesus Christ. It is not for us, it is for the world and the Jews.