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Jeff, Way back there on the Satan bound thread before we were off line you asked for a time line so you can grasp what I was saying. So here’s what I’ve come up with. I haven’t included many scriptures as we have discussed these events already somewhere in these threads. I’m sure there are many other events that could be added but this is a basic time line of how I see the end times unfolding.
Christ first advent Christ sets up the kingdom as prophesied Begins preaching the gospel to Jews The day of salvation has begun The last days have begun (Heb. 1-2) Jews reject him and crucify him as prophesied Christ defeats Satan at the cross Judgment is now for world and Satan is cast down (Jn. 12:31) Judgment begins at the house of God(1 Pet. 4:17) Satan is cast down to the earth and begins persecution of the church As a defeated foe, he can’t stop the gospel truth Gospel continues another 3 ½ years to the house of Israel Gospel then goes out to the Gentiles Time of Gentiles continues presently Through out this time many die and are raised with Christ (1st resurrection=spiritual birth) 1 John tells us there are many antichrists already at work The temple is destroyed in 70 AD (great tribulation and days of vengeance for Jews) Wars, rumors of war, famines, pestilences, etc. continue in the world Church continues to receive persecution through out history Natural disasters continue warning throughout history These things are the trumpets and such we see in Rev. and explained in Matt. Remnant Church maintains her witness and faithfulness through out history Disciples are delivered up to be killed by those claiming to do God service Church is persecuted by Rome from Christ’s day through various leaders, the RCC has inquisition , Gates of hell don’t prevail, church continues on RC Fulfills parts of Rev. about the beast and harlot Before Christ returns many fall away The son of perdition(Satan) is made know and God sends a strong delusion because they loved not the truth **(Notice that God allows this deception because they already loved not the truth. Men are without excuse to know God.) Satan is loosed , deceives and gathers the world to war (Armageddon) against the saints and God. The day of salvation is closed as the gospel’s 2 witnesses (church) are silenced by Satan. Then is the Last Trumpet, the Last Day, judgment : Christ returns All the dead hear and rise (general or second resurrection)(also called resurrection of the dead) The dead in Christ go up, the living in Christ also go up to be with the Lord in the new heavens The wicked receive judgment and are cast into the lake of fire with Satan as the earth and old heavens pass away.
Seems we are very near the end. We can see the apostasy clearly today for many love not the truth but take pleasure in their own lusts. We can see many things of the world gathering today against Christ and his remnant. Thus, the door of salvation is closing fast. How long until judgment? Not long as the war against the saints seems to be increasing. While Satan has always persecuted the saints, he has not been able to gather the whole world against them yet.
Has that little season begun? Has Satan been loosed yet? Remember there are many laws being made already to silence the gospel. It is becoming a “hate-crime” to preach that Jesus is the only way. The world is unifying under the banner of all religions are equally good. How long till we can no longer speak? (Rev. is very symbolic, I’m not sure we actually have to be killed but rather the witness must be silenced. ) The world disasters are getting worse. The possibility of a war of total destruction is a rumor of truth these days. The Lord says he’ll shorten the days for his elect before man destroys himself. There is to be a remnant when the Lord returns. When we see all these things we should look up and remember our redemption draws nigh. It is closer than we think and getting closer each day. Today is the day of salvation. We should draw near to God while he may be found.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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.......Billy Graham, Robert Schuller and their associations with Roman Catholics, Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven Church and Purpose Driven Life, Nicky Gumbal and his Alpha Course, John Hagee with his dispensationalism, Jack Van Impe with his ever changing view on prophecies.......
I have a couple questions about your time line for now. More later.
In Is. 24 and Jer. 4 a time is spoken of when the earth is broken down and there are no men. I believe this is the 1000 year period spoken of in Rev 20 after the saints are resurrected and they and the living saints go to heaven for the judgment. It says the birds eat the flesh of those who lay upon the face of the earth. And the rest of the dead, that is, those who died outside of Christ, lived not again until the 1000 years is finished.
Question: In your time line, when is the earth desolate to enjoy her sabbaths?
If the world is destroyed by fire, where are the people during this event?
quote:In your time line, when is the earth desolate to enjoy her sabbaths?
Leviticus 26:33-35 (KJV) And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. [34] Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. [35] As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. 2 Chron. 36:21 (KJV) To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
BTW, it was the land of the Israelites that was to have a Sabbath, not the earth.
quote:If the world is destroyed by fire, where are the people during this event?
Destroyed also as in in the works therein, the chaff, the tares, etc. .
I've gone over this several times. Christ comes with his reward. All the dead hear and rise. The righteous go up to meet him and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. This occurs on the last day. There is no more time after this.
Rev. 10:6 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
We have been over it many times but I am trying now to fill in the full picture. Please bear with me.
From your timeline...
quote: Christ returns All the dead hear and rise (general or second resurrection)(also called resurrection of the dead) The dead in Christ go up, the living in Christ also go up to be with the Lord in the new heavens The wicked receive judgment and are cast into the lake of fire with Satan as the earth and old heavens pass away.
Questions:
Where do these scripture fit into your timeline?
Rev 20:7-10 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Jer 4:23-27 23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Ezek 38:14-23 14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? 18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
There are a lot of similarities between Ezek 38 and Rev 20.
Gog and Magog
great army, like a cloud, like the sands of the sea
coming against God's people in the last days
against the city of God, the land of Israel, the camp of the saints
people of God dwell safely then (inside the city)
fire rains down upon them
great destruction in the earth proceeds this time
Jeremiah 4 says the earth is void and empty with no man found. The birds fled. Great earthquake. Cities broken down. (v29) The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
Isaiah 24 says the earth is turned upside down. (v3)The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. (v19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
I noticed you had difficulty with two passages in Isaiah 24 because of the language used.
6 "Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." We know that all the wicked are burned so those left are a remnant of saints. This is commenting on the small number that will be saved in comparison to the lost. Few find the narrow way. Many find the broad way.
22 "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." The grave is often referred to as the pit. This refers to the wicked being reserved in the grave. It is speaking of the time when Christ comes to gather them into bundles to be burned. They are gathered to the grave--or in this case they lay upon the face of the earth for the birds to eat their flesh--to wait for judgment. And, as the verse says, after many days they will be visited. This speaks of the resurrection, the day of the great white judgment, when God calls the wicked forth from the earth, the sea, the grave. Then they all stand before God to receive the reward of the wicked which is death in the lake of fire.
I am trying to broaden my explanation so as to help you understand what I believe the scripture is saying and how all of these verses are related to each other. The Bible story is one story and we need to look at the many passages as expouding upon each other. Many object lessons in the OT help us understand future events. I will try to touch on this in a future post.
Had you looked at the time line closely you would see
Faith’s time line:
quote:Before Christ returns many fall away The son of perdition(Satan) is made know and God sends a strong delusion because they loved not the truth **(Notice that God allows this deception because they already loved not the truth. Men are without excuse to know God.) Satan is loosed , deceives and gathers the world to war (Armageddon) against the saints and God. The day of salvation is closed as the gospel’s 2 witnesses (church) are silenced by Satan.
Then is the Last Trumpet, the Last Day, judgment
(I might add all these things listed below happen on this last day. I should have stated at Christ return because they actually rise in time to see him in the clouds. Remember this was just a quick overview not detailed)
quote:Christ returns All the dead hear and rise (general or second resurrection)(also called resurrection of the dead) The dead in Christ go up, the living in Christ also go up to be with the Lord in the new heavens The wicked receive judgment and are cast into the lake of fire with Satan as the earth and old heavens pass away.
You asked about: 1. Rev 20:7-10
After the gospel age, just before the Lord returns, Satan is loosed. The restraints that God has placed on him are removed. He is free to deceive the nations and gather them together to fight the final battle (Gog & magog) as he attacks the saints. (Maybe like another inquisiton on a world wide scale) The world will think Satan is winning as they see the church (two witnesses) silenced and the door of salvation shut. But Christ will return all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him. Thus, the resurrection of the dead occurs before or during his return in the clouds, so they can see him. The saints go up and the wicked are cast into hell and devoured by fire.
2. Jer. 4:23-27
In reading Jer. chapters 1-4, I would have to say that this portion of Jer. is speaking to ancient Israel during OT times. I don’t believe it is an endtime prophesy. (endtimes starting with Christ 1st advent) God pleads with them to repent of idolatry against him. Over and over in these chapters he calls for them to return to him. Because they don’t, he tells in verse 29 the whole city shall flee. It appears this is a warning to Jerusalem. If we look at history and the many times the Israelites have suffered desolation time and time again, I believe we see why he said it was not a full end. For God continued to call Israel to repentance though out the OT and now through the NT. When he mentions the whole land being desolate, I suspect it was referring to the whole land Israel occupied.
3. Ez. 38
Yes, Ezek. 38 & 39 mentions the final battle just before Christ returns and the destruction of the wicked.
Isa. 24:6 I believe it is not the same time period as Jer. 4. However, the whole chapter Isa. 24 is relating the time period just before Christ returns to the destruction of the wicked and Christ ruling in the new earth. If the chapter is chronological then the men left would not all be saints for the earth then reels to and fro and the Lord punishes the kings and they are gathered together. This I believe is the final gathering of the tares and you mentioned they were “visited” as their resurrection. That could be. However, then the signs in the moon and sun and Christ returns. So you see the resurrection of the dead is before Christ return.
So those who pierced him (Jews dead over 2,000 years) were kept in the pit these last 2000+ years and will be visited or raised just in time to see the Lord return. You can’t have him returning for the saints and then returning for the wicked to see him in the clouds 1,000 years later for that would mean he had a third return. No scripture implies that.
Rev. 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
So you see every eye shall see him when he comes in the clouds. The reason the earth shall wail is because they know their fate. This passage shows that all the dead hear and see Christ at the same time.
The birds may very well eat some of those killed during the final battle, or it very well may be a spiritual symbol as I mentioned before. Rev. 20 just gives a quick overview of the battle and outcome. Many other passages show us parts of this senerio from different views. However the theme is the same. Christ rewards his saints and destroys the wicked as the final battle is won.
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Now, we know we will judge the world and angels. But we are not qualified to judge them now. We must wait until Jesus open the hidden things of the heart to us. (Now I am alluding to the 1000 years when we judge. Apparently it happens after Jesus comes, not before.)
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
OK, well it seems we have a lot of commonality to our beliefs but just don't see exactly eye-to-eye on some important items. We'll have to give it a rest for a while until both of us have a greater understanding.
I have enjoyed conversing with you. It has been productive for me and hopefully for you.
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I have been spending a lot of time in Isaiah and Jeremiah. The things that those books are talking about happened to Israel and Judah, the two kingdoms, mostly. When it says that the people are slain and the birds come and eat their flesh that is what God did to Israel and Judah. And He did do it too. I don't think that those old testament books are hard to understand, but I do think that a lot of people are not understanding them. God's judgement was very harsh to Israel and Judah.
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I believe the Israelites were called over and over by God to repent of their idolatries, etc. God was very longsuffering as he punished them and then called them again. His judgments were hard on them for they were rejecting him. I beleive they are an example to us today to repent of our idolatries lest we be judged in the final judgment.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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When you read of all that Israel has done it is no wonder that God took the husbandman away from them. The first 4 generations from Abraham were about the only ones to remain faithful to him and after that....forget it. Israel went whoring in Egypt, in the wilderness, continued to backslide many many many times, were taken into captivity and for His Name's sake were brought back out of captivity (notice not even for their sake). They were filled with covetousness which the Lord hated the most. I guess after they crucified Jesus and then stirred up people against Paul when he tried to witness to the gentiles, it was just too much. God was very patient with them, I do have to admit that! It doesn't look like us gentiles have done much better than them.
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