Thanks for your comments and scriptures about spiritual Israel. You wrote:
quote:The physical kingdom promised to Israel has been possessed. They lost it by their rejection of God. They were multiplied as the stars or sand but have now been diminished because of disobedience.
They rejected Christ because they thought the Messiah would restore that physical kingdom to them. However, Christ specifically stated his kingdom was not of this world. It is a heavenly kingdom that will never end. We are to look up, not at things here on the earth; but to the heavenly. The popular teaching of a new physical temple and a 1,000 earthly physical reign for physical Israel is not scriptural; but a fabrication of men. It started with the Jews of Jesus day and has escalated into the popular dispensational teaching of more than one gospel and more than one kingdom.
Regarding the 1000 year reign on earth: I heard a pastor preaching this doctrine just this morning. I have not been exposed to this teaching so I am not too familiar with it. It sounds as if this doctrine has a timeline something like this. (This is not complete.)
Infant Birth
Earthly ministration
The Cross
The Resurrection
The Ascension
Pentecost
Church era
Rapture
2nd Coming to the earth
1000 year earthly kingdom
Temple in Jerusalem rebuilt
(not sure what happens next)
But, my question is this. After the rapture, who are left on earth but those that weren't "ready" for the rapture. I think the doctrine teaches that these are so shocked by the rapture that it is a wake-up call to them and some of them get their act together in time for the 2nd coming. So then, when Jesus sets up his earthly kingdom how do we have 1000 years of peace if the "wicked" are still alive and living among us? When is the judgment of the wicked and the lake of fire?
I'm wondering if our differences or misunderstanding of each other stem from differing understanding of terms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me from the above post that you understand "physical" and "earthly" to be the opposite or antithesis of "heavenly". Also, from other topics, it seems that you understand "spiritual" also to be the opposite of "physical". Am I correct?
The reason why I ask is that I do not believe that scripture indicates that such terms are opposites. Rather "heavenly" and "earthly" have to do with ORIGINS. i.e. from where does a particular person or kingdom come?
For example: the children of this world are just as much spiritual as are the children of light. They all were created spirit, soul and body. The difference is not that one is spiritual and the other is physical. Both are spiritual beings with physical bodies! Rather the difference is which creation did they come from? (The earthly creation or the new creation?)See the following texts:
Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the CHILDREN OF THIS WORLD are in their generation wiser than the children of light. Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The CHILDREN OF THIS WORLD marry, and are given in marriage:
When the Lord Jesus, told the Pharisees that they were of this world, but He was not, He was NOT saying that they were "phyiscal" but he was "spiritual". He was rather speaking of the PLACE FROM WHICH THEY CAME. They originated IN THIS WORLD. He did not. HE CAME INTO THE WORLD! The Lord Jesus took upon Himself a human body which was born in this world, but He himself, as the Son of God did not originate here! "Unto us a a child is BORN, unto us a SON IS GIVEN." John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: YE ARE OF THIS WORLD; I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD.
Take another example: The contrast between kingdoms of this world and Christ's kingdom which is not of this world: John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Christ's kingdom did not originate in this world like the kingdoms of this world did. However, servants of both kingdoms have physical bodies, physical life, and walk around on planet earth. When Christ's kingdom was announced as being "at hand" and "within you" it was "at hand" on earth and it was "within" physical people! So too when Christ reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords the kingdoms of this world will be his and Hi reign will extend throughout the physical universe!
Psalms 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Zechariah 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
But notice also that there are people "of this world" who are also heirs of God's kingdom! James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor OF THIS WORLD rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
They are part of the earthly physical creation, but also part of the kingdom which is from heaven! believers in Jesus Christ will ALWAYS HAVE physical bodies! (i.e. bodies of flesh and bones just like the resurrected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus which could be seen, touched and handled.
There are beings who are "of this world" who are not PHYSICAL at all! They are spirits which do not have bodies! Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness OF THIS WORLD, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Although Christ is "not of this world", He DID, DOES, AND WILL ALWAYS HAVE A PHYSICAL BODY! There is a REAL MAN (SPIRIT SOUL AND BODY) in heaven today!
It is for such reasons, again, that I believe such terms as "physical kingdom" ( a term not used in scripture) is a term which leads to misunderstanding and confusion when it is used as an opposite tio a scriptural term which is NOT its opposite!
I hope this helps to clarify things as we discuss these topics together.
The theory you have heard is the popular theory of the day that does include the teaching of dispensationalism that I have found to be in grave error. I'll share with you what I believe to be the answers about the rapture, 1,000 years, day of the Lord and such if you are interested. Granted it took much study and many word searches and much help from the spirit to come to my current understanding. I've also found that there are a few others who also hold to this understanding but it isn't popular. I do believe it is important to understand now for I see the popular view is to look for an earthly kingdom on this earth instead of the one kingdom of God. This is the same thing the Jews in Jesus' day looked for and thus they missed the setting up of the kingdom when Christ was on the earth.
I'll share as I find the time and I'll try to explain from the points I begin to question first. Eventually, all the pieces fit together like never before. For when I read the popular ideas of the endtimes I found it sooooo confusing. I put them all down and began my own studies with just the word and learned little by little just how many falsehoods were being taught in the mainline. I guess the main problem is that too many preach what they learned from their fathers that learned from their fathers and no one actually studies for themselves.
Whatever I share, remember do the proving yourself, don't take my word for it. I'll try to get started tomorrow. You might begin yourself by searching for scripture on the rapture. That's the most talked about subject I think and the first one I examined when trying to understand the endtimes.
posted
[quote]I'm wondering if our differences or misunderstanding of each other stem from differing understanding of terms. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me from the above post that you understand "physical" and "earthly" to be the opposite or antithesis of "heavenly". Also, from other topics, it seems that you understand "spiritual" also to be the opposite of "physical". Am I correct?
For example: the children of this world are just as much spiritual as are the children of light. They all were created spirit, soul and body. The difference is not that one is spiritual and the other is physical. Both are spiritual beings with physical bodies![quote]
Hi Bruce,
Yes I do believe we understand physical and spiritual differently. If all physical people are also spiritual people, then everyone would end up in heaven; but flesh and blood (physical) can not inherit the kingdom only those born of the Spirit can.
1 Cor. 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
John 3:5-6 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
James 4:4 (KJV) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
I believe if you put aside everything you've been taught, just as you did in understanding the error of the organized church traditions, and re-study the issue, you will see some things you've never seen or considered before. I know I did. As I discuss these things with Jeff, I believe the difference between the physical and spiritual will become more clear.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
I have studied the 1000 years reign for myself without any preconceived notions of what I should be looking for and I must admit that this doctrine of a 1000 year earthly reign is foreign to me. I am ignorant of such teachings and am puzzled by it. I would like to hear your study but would appreciate just a quick answer regarding this other doctrine and the questions I posed. Did I get the timeline correct? And, what happens to the wicked during the 1000 years--according to this teaching?
What I am really wondering is, how will God control the wicked during this period if they have rejected His leading in the past? I am hoping the answer is not by force, because this would be against God's character--to force someone to worship Him against their will. But there is one who would gladly accept forced worship. He wants to sit in the temple of God and pass himself off as if he is God.
Satan will accept worship in any manner he can get it. This is obvious when we look at Revelation and read how those who refuse to worship him will not be able to buy and sell. We only need look at the cross to see the differences in the character of Satan and the character of Christ.
God only accept worship which is freely given and so He gives us intelligence so that we may hear the gospel and choose for ourselves whom we will serve. We know this is true, that God allows us to choose, because God is all-powerful and could cause everyone of us to fall before him and worship him. In fact, he could have created us much like the ant or the bee, with a direct-wired instinct to mold our behavior. But, God is all-knowing as well and so before he began creating this world he laid the plan of salvation, for Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. And knowing that He would have to come and die for our transgressions of His holy law, Jesus still desired to create this world and the race that would reject Him and crucify Him.
Satan's character was to covet God's throne, to exhalt himself to the highest position. Christ's nature was to humble himself, take on the form of a servant, and being found as a servant in the form of human flesh, he again humbled himself, even though He was very God, and tasted death for all men. And not just death, but death by crucifixion on a cruel instrument of humiliation and shame.
So, can you give me a quick taste of what is to come so I can chew on that a while?
I may have confused things a bit by using the term physical. I should have stayed with using either fleshly or spiritual. I didn't go back and check all the times I used physical but it should have only been used to refer to the natural birth. I didn't intend to imply that Spiritual people did not have physical bodies or that those with physical bodies could not be Spiritual.
This is how I intended to use fleshly and Spiritual:
quote:Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
So before when I was referring to "Spiritual Israel" I was speaking of Israelites whose minds are stayed on spiritual, heavenly, subjects. When I was referring to "Israel after the flesh," I was speaking of Israelites who mind the things of the flesh--the earthly things. When I referred to physical Israel, I meant those who can trace their genealogy through Jewish bloodlines. In other words, their only title to anything was their humanity.
There are spirits, yes, which have no visible, physical body. That is not how I intended for "Spiritual" to be interpretted. I was refering to those who allow Jesus to dwell in them through the Holy Spirit as being "Spiritual" persons.
Now, there are people today who claim to be "spiritual" but don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They are allowing evil, spiritual, influences to guide them since they deny the leading which is of the Holy Spirit.
Where in scripture do you get the idea that everyone who is spiritual goes to heaven? Satan is a spirit and demons are spirits and every unconverted person is a spirit inhabitting a body, just as believers are spirits inhabbitting bodies! There is righteous spirituality and unrighteous spirituality!
Yes, as you have quoted, scripture definitely teaches that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But the resurrected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus was NOT flesh and blood, it was a body of flesh and bone! And so will our glorified bodies be bodies of flesh and bone. Yes, the Lord Jesus has a physical flesh and bone body today and will have it for eternity and so will we.
Please do not think that I'm saying there is no difference between physical and spiritual! Of course there is! But the two are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! For example, all saved Israelites (born of the spirit) were also Israelites after the flesh. In fact scripture never ever speaks of any saved Israelite who was not first an Israelite after the flesh.
Another way of putting it that no one ever became an Israelite by new birth who was not an Israelite before they were saved. The same is true of Gentiles. There are Gentiles after the flesh and there are gentiles who are born after the Spirit. There are men who we
Where in scripture do you get the idea that everyone who is spiritual goes to heaven? Satan is a spirit and demons are spirits and every unconverted person is a spirit inhabitting a body, just as believers are spirits inhabbitting bodies! There is righteous spirituality and unrighteous spirituality!
Yes, as you have quited, scripture definitely teaches that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But the resurrected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus was NOT flesh and blood, it was a body of flesh and bone! And so will our glorified bodies be bodies of flesh and bone. Yes, the Lord Jesus has a physical flesh and bone body today and will have it for eternity and so will we.
Please do not think that I'm saying there is no difference between physical and spiritual! Of course there is! But the two are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! For example, all saved Israelites (born of the spirit) were also Israelites after the flesh. In fact scripture never ever speaks of any saved Israelite who was not first an Israelite after the flesh.
Another way of putting it that no one ever became an Israelite by new birth who was not an Israelite before they were saved. The same is true of Gentiles. There are Gentiles after the flesh and there are gentiles who are born after the Spirit. There are men who were men after
Youn wrote (and I wholeheartedly agree with you when you use scriptural terms): "So before when I was referring to "Spiritual Israel" I was speaking of Israelites whose minds are stayed on spiritual, heavenly, subjects. When I was referring to "Israel after the flesh," I was speaking of Israelites who mind the things of the flesh--the earthly things. When I referred to physical Israel, I meant those who can trace their genealogy through Jewish bloodlines. In other words, their only title to anything was their humanity."
I agree that there are those who are only Israelites after the flesh by natural birth. There are also Israelites who were Israelites after the flesh by natural birth, but have also been born of the Spirit and are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.
But I cannot accept, for scripture never teaches such a thing, i.e. that Gentiles after the flesh become Israelites when born of the Spirit!
posted
Bruce wrote: "But I cannot accept, for scripture never teaches such a thing, i.e. that Gentiles after the flesh become Israelites when born of the Spirit!"
Again, Bruce, you have correctly identified our major point of disagreement. Though a converted Gentile doesn't change nationalities from a human perspective and no one earthly would ever consider a Gentile to magically become a Jew simply by belief in Christ, yet this is what happens in reality from God's perspective. And, even though we consider all of Israel to be truly Israel--because we see things from a human perspective--God does not consider every professing Israelite to be an Israelite--mostly because Israel means "contended with God and man and overcame."
In fact, I will go one further and say that it is impossible for any natural born "Israelite" to be considered of Israel by God without faith in Jesus Christ. Because without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore, those we consider Israel will never overcome by keeping the law in their own strength. They rejected Christ, and Jesus only gives power to become the children of God to those who receive him. And no one who fails to overcome will enter God's kingdom. And entry is gained only through Jesus--his flesh.
quote:Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
If a man climbs up any other way he is a thief. No one will overcome without the power of God through Jesus Christ. For without Christ we can do nothing, but we can do all things through Jesus Christ our Lord. If we receive Christ we cannot help but overcome because we receive his life. If we do not receive Christ, we cannot possibly overcome. So, to receive Christ fully is to overcome. And, to overcome means God will call us overcomers. Therefore, God will never call anyone who does not overcome, Israel, for the very name Israel means overcomer.
quote:1 Peter 2:22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
1 John 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
The OT name Jesus gave to Jacob when he overcame is Israel. Therefore, God has called overcomers, and overcomers only, by the name Israel--for that is what the name means-- overcomer (contended with God and man and was victorious).
quote:Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [ Israel means he struggles with God . ] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
posted
Referring to my previous response to Bruce on spiritual Israel in this topic: I am glad to see the overlap between the various topics of discussion on this cafe. For truly, Truth is one continous thread of gold that runs through the entire gospel connecting the various foundational teachings of the plan of redemption which purpose is to restore man to his original, perfect, state before the fall and in full communion with God.
Seems we are having some difficulty in understanding each other. I would say that I agree with Jeff on the nature of spiritual Israelites as overcomers regardless of race. Jeff's last post on the subject was very good.
Of course I know there are evil spirits and I'm sure those filled with such consider themselves spiritual. However, I am refering to the new life, spiritual life of those filled with the Holy Spirit. Scriptures speak of those who are not of Christ as dead, infering spiritually dead to God. Until one is born again of the Spirit, one is in essence dead in spirit.
Ephes. 5:14-17 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. [15] See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, [16] Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. [17] Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
John 5:25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5 is often used as a rapture passage but we can see it is not. It states "now" ..."the dead shall hear".. referring to those who hear and believe the gospel now being the ones that shall live.
quote: Lord Jesus was NOT flesh and blood, it was a body of flesh and bone! And so will our glorified bodies be bodies of flesh and bone. Yes, the Lord Jesus has a physical flesh and bone body today and will have it for eternity and so will we.
I believe Christ appeared in flesh and bone for part time he was on earth with the disciples for he let Thomas touch him and he ate fish. However, flesh and bone can not walk through walls. I believe flesh and bone and flesh and blood are essentially the same thing. Bones have blood in them and flesh and blood people have bones in them. Angels also had the ability to appear in the flesh. I believe when the Lord returns and we are changed into the incorruptable body, it will be a spiritual body, a glorious body like the one of Christ described in rev. or like the form of God that no man has seen. I don't know exactly what it will be like for it isn't described in detail in scripture. It will be different from a plain flesh and blood or bone body. How else could Christ go up to the right hand of God? A normal physical body could not travel through space nor live forever.
posted
Hi Jeff, I think we have much the same understanding. I too was puzzled by the 1,000 year earthly kingdom. I am surprised you just recently heard of it for it is very popular and goes with the pre trib rapture most often, though mid and post also have their variations. Or maybe you are like me, I ‘d heard of the millennium but was surprised to find what they actually taught.
quote:But, my question is this. After the rapture, who are left on earth but those that weren't "ready" for the rapture. I think the doctrine teaches that these are so shocked by the rapture that it is a wake-up call to them and some of them get their act together in time for the 2nd coming. So then, when Jesus sets up his earthly kingdom how do we have 1000 years of peace if the "wicked" are still alive and living among us? When is the judgment of the wicked and the lake of fire?
quote: I have studied the 1000 years reign for myself without any preconceived notions of what I should be looking for and I must admit that this doctrine of a 1000 year earthly reign is foreign to me. I am ignorant of such teachings and am puzzled by it.
Did I get the timeline correct? And, what happens to the wicked during the 1000 years--according to this teaching?
What I am really wondering is, how will God control the wicked during this period if they have rejected His leading in the past? I am hoping the answer is not by force, because this would be against God's character--to force someone to worship Him against their will. But there is one who would gladly accept forced worship. He wants to sit in the temple of God and pass himself off as if he is God.
I just saw on another thread that both you and Bruce don’t accept the secret rapture theory. Thus, we do have another common belief. The secret rapture theory is most often tied to the 1,000 year earthly theory and both seem to be the fabrication of popular writers as the Left Behind Series, etc.
I’m not an expert on the millennium theories but I understand that most believe that the church will be taken up first, then a pre or mid tribulation time and then the earthly 1,000 year reign of Christ. Some teach that the church will come back and rule over the Jews and the wicked. Others teach that the Jews will be the rulers over the people. Some do teach that it will be a time of rule by force using the rod of iron. (They neglect to see the rod of iron is God’s wrath poured out.) Then they see the judgment day after this 1,000 year time. Seems that would make Christ return 3 times. Once for the church, once to set up the kingdom after the tribulation and once after the millennium. Go figure? Another twist is the post trib restoration theory which sees the church go through the tribulation. Then Christ comes to set up the millennium with them as the rulers with rods of iron. Then Christ returning for judgment. Thus, only 2 second comings.
I’m not certain when each group thinks the temple will be rebuilt; but all who teach this millennium do think there will be a return to temple worship and sacrifices made and an earthly utopia. This is the heart of the errors. They once again reject Christ and him crucified once and for all for the sins of men. There is absolutely no need or prophesy of returning to the sacrificial temple system.
The idea that people are given a second chance by the old system is a slap in the Lord’s face. Scripture is clear that today is the day of salvation and that Jesus Christ is the one way of salvation.
One of the ways they fool folks into believing these things is by saying there are several gospels and kingdoms; rather than realizing the different terms, such as kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven or gospel of Christ and gospel of heaven, all refer to the same kingdom and gospel.
I’m not sure what conclusions you have drawn from your own studies but I would guess they are similar to mine. I believe the 1,000 years is the time from the first advent to the second advent. The saints are those of the first resurrection, new birth, and are ruling with Christ now as he lives in our hearts. We look for the return of the Lord to gather us together for our reward (eternal life) and for the wicked to receive their reward in the lake of fire.
I believe the next thing on the scene will be the loosing of Satan for a little season to gather the world together to war with the saints and the Lord. I think we will possibly see more persecution of the church; but we are to be ready and watch for our Lord to come. Judgment occurs at the last trump, the day of the Lord which is the time of his return and the time of each man’s reward, some to eternal life and others to death in the lake of fire. I don’t necessarily see the rise of a specific man called Antichrist nor do I see a specific time of tribulation but these things have been on going during this entire time sometimes called the church age or the time of the Gentiles.
BTW, how do you understand the 70 weeks in Dan. 9? I think it is the one passage that has been so twisted to fabricate the whole rapture, antichrist, tribulation, millennium, etc. I could never see how they claimed that it was talking about the antichrist. Who was cut off in mid week? Who made a new covenant with the Jews and was killed mid-week? Who caused the sacrificial system to end? Who said the temple would be destroyed and desolate? What is the final consummation?
quote:What I am really wondering is, how will God control the wicked during this period if they have rejected His leading in the past? I am hoping the answer is not by force, because this would be against God's character--to force someone to worship Him against their will. But there is one who would gladly accept forced worship. He wants to sit in the temple of God and pass himself off as if he is God.
Satan will accept worship in any manner he can get it. This is obvious when we look at Revelation and read how those who refuse to worship him will not be able to buy and sell. We only need look at the cross to see the differences in the character of Satan and the character of Christ. Satan's character was to covet God's throne, to exhalt himself to the highest position.
I see Satan as the ultimate antichrist, the one who would like to sit in God’s temple and the author of the false teachings of another physical temple with sacrifices and such. I don’t see one man as the Antichrist, with a big A. There aren’t many verses but antichrist is a spirit. Any man with that spirit is considered an antichrist and there were many already in NT days. Also there is no such thing as The Great Tribulation , big TGT. There has always been, is and always will be tribulation for the saints. Another misconception is that the end time is 7 years or such. Actually the last days have been going on for over 2,000 years. Rev. told of things that were to shortly come to pass and have been going on all this time. It is the mistake of most to cram 2,000 years of history into 7 years in the future and then add another 1,000.
Most are looking for a future millennium kingdom not realizing that Christ set up the kingdom that never ends when he was here. He will soon return to gather those in his kingdom and take them to the Father where we will be with him forever.
The good news is, the kingdom is at hand, repent and believe Jesus that you may live.
Let us look up our redemption draws nigh.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Sorry to jump in but please tell me how you would interpret Isaiah 65 especially verse 20. I don't buy the 1000 year earthly reign theory but dispensationalists use this verse quite often to support their theory. Thanks very much
Here's a site that explains very well what dispensational premilleniumism teaches. I found the part about The Kingdom Offer on on page 9 explaining my concerns. http://users.frii.com/gosplow/disp2.html I do not agree with this site on their other teachings. A friend had sent this article to me and I think it is of value to know what we are dealing with concerning this teaching.
Hi Chubbena,
Boy, you picked a hard one. I haven't the time just now, I've been on line too long already; but will try to find the discussion I had with others on this very verse. I also wondered what it meant.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
There have been a lot of comments here the last while about people not believing in the thousand year reign of Christ and His saints. Now ther may very well be and certainly are many "off the wall" ideas taught about end times and the thousand years. BUT Revelation 20 is inspired scripture! It is one thing to say, we don't believe something, it is quite another to acknowledge what scripture actually says for itself!!
You wrote:" I believe the 1,000 years is the time from the first advent to the second advent. The saints are those of the first resurrection, new birth, and are ruling with Christ now as he lives in our hearts. We look for the return of the Lord to gather us together for our reward (eternal life) and for the wicked to receive their reward in the lake of fire."
Dear sister, is not the second advent already overdue then???? It has now been over 1000 years since Christ first came into the world! Do you not see two very distinct judgments? (1)The judgment seat of Christ where we, believers, will be judged, not for our sins, (as that was fully dealt with at Calvary) but rather for our stewardship and to receive rewards for faithfulness. (Romans 14:10-12) and (2) The great white throne judgment for all the ungodly. Rev.20:11-15 There is a resurrection prior to each iof these judgments. The righteous are raised and live and reign with Christ for a thousand years but the rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are finished. Rev.20:4-6
You wrote:"I believe the next thing on the scene will be the loosing of Satan for a little season to gather the world together to war with the saints and the Lord. I think we will possibly see more persecution of the church; but we are to be ready and watch for our Lord to come."
But Faith, Satan is to be bound for 1000 years! The last 1000 sure don't look to me like he has been bound!!! Who are the saints who were beheaded for the the witness of Jesus, who did not worship the beast, or his image, and who did not receive his mark in their foreheads or in their hands who have reigned with Christ a thousand years?
You continued:"Judgment occurs at the last trump, the day of the Lord which is the time of his return and the time of each man’s reward, some to eternal life and others to death in the lake of fire. I don’t necessarily see the rise of a specific man called Antichrist nor do I see a specific time of tribulation but these things have been on going during this entire time sometimes called the church age or the time of the Gentiles."
Scripture clearly teaches that at the last trump, believers will be raised and changed (mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible) I Cor.15, caught up to meet the Lord in the air I Thess.4, and receive their rest from trouble II Thess.1:6-10. BUT, where would you see in scripture that this event is the time of the judgment of the wicked and their consignment to the lake of fire?
You also commented:"Also there is no such thing as The Great Tribulation , big TGT. There has always been, is and always will be tribulation for the saints."
If this is the case, how do you explain what scripture says in Matt.24:21-30? "For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You concluded:"Most are looking for a future millennium kingdom not realizing that Christ set up the kingdom that never ends when he was here. He will soon return to gather those in his kingdom and take them to the Father where we will be with him forever.
The good news is, the kingdom is at hand, repent and believe Jesus that you may live.
Let us look up our redemption draws nigh. "
Faith, where does scripture teach that we have yet to be taken to the Father????? Are you thinking of John 14? The Lord jesus was NOT talking in that chapter about going away TO HEAVEN, and coming back FROM HEAVEN in order to take us to be with Him IN HEAVEN!
He was saying that in a little while he was going away to the cross. The world would rejoice and the disciples would be sad. Then after another little while (3 days) He would come again (out of death in resurrection) so that they could be WHERE HE WAS! He told them where He was....IN THE FATHER! (John 14:10,11) He never ever said that He was the way to heaven, but that he was the way TO THE FATHER! Believers have been IN CHRIST, AND IN THE FATHER ever since the Lord Jesus rose from the dead! We have been IN THE SPIRIT ever since he was sent down on the Day of Pentecost! And we have been seated with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph.2:6) ever since the Lord Jesus ascended back to heaven and was seated at the Father's right hand!
But our "lifting up our heads and the drawing near of our redemption" must be preceded by the specific events detailed in Luke 21: prior to verse 28.
These are some of the things that I see in scripture anyhow! Your brother in Christ, Bruce
Excellent start! As with any study of scripture, it is best to begin by simply gathering all the facts of scripture and observing just what scripture itself says about any particular topic.
Could I suggest another general observation relative to prophecies which include specific time periods?
As far as I can tell, every fulfilled prophecy of scripture which has involved a specific time period in the original prophecy, has been fulfilled in exactly the same time period which was specified by the prophet. In other words, all other such prophecies have been literally fulfilled. So when a prophecy of a specific time period is made in the second last chapter of the Bible, should we not expect, from all the previous evidence, that this prophecy will also be fulfilled in a very specific and literal manner just like all the rest have been?
Might we try to answer some of the following questions from scripture? -What sort of things take place in the world when Satan is at liberty to do his work as he pleases? -When Satan is bound for a thousand years, what sorts of things should indicate that Satan is NOT at liberty to do what he pleases? -Does not Rev.20 require that the righteous dead be raised PRIOR TO the commencement of this "thousand years"? -Is this resurrection an event of past history, or is it an event which we are still anticipating? -What events does scripture teach must precede this resurrection? -What sorts of events/conditions etc in the world should we be expecting and preparing for, in view of these things?
BTW, re the topic for this discussion: "1000 Year Reign of Earthly Peace"....is this a description of this time that comes from a traditional teaching of men OR does scripture itself describe the thousand year period in such terms? If this is not found clearly stated in scriptures that deal specificly with the thousand years, maybe we would be better to simply call this topic something like, "A Thousand Year Reign of Christ With His Saints". Then, as we gather our information, maybe we should be asking questions like: -WHERE does this reign take place? -WHAT conditions will be introduced by this reign? -WHO will Christ and His saints reign over? -WHY will this thousand year reign be brought about? What purposes will it fulfill? -WHEN will it begin, in relation to other events foretold in scripture?
I look forward to searching the scriptures with you as we seek to come to terms with this fascinating subject!
posted
I just wanted to respond to some of Bruce's comments and questions. The quoted material is from Bruce's post.
quote:Excellent start! As with any study of scripture, it is best to begin by simply gathering all the facts of scripture and observing just what scripture itself says about any particular topic.
Agreed! Can we also agree on the following points?
All scripture is inspired of God and useful for teaching. Nothing off limits.
Human intelligence is not sufficient to comprehend spiritual matters. Prayer is essential.
God rejects the proud but gives grace unto the humble. We must come willing to learn.
Let scripture interpret itself. If two passages contradict, we go back to scripture.
Utimately, the weight of evidence must prevail. One scripture will not overturn two others.
We understand that if we do not want to know the truth, God will give us strong delusions.
Scripture is not necessarily written in chronological order. Same for visions.
quote:...[Revelation] prophecy will also be fulfilled in a very specific and literal manner...
If you're speaking of time, then I think we disagree. It is rather apparent that some prophecies were stated in terms of days yet fulfilled in terms of years. However, with regard to the 1000 years in Revelation I have no problem agreeing that that time is years. Yet, I reserve the right to change my mind if we discover something else.
quote:Might we try to answer some of the following questions from scripture?
Certainly. If scripture supports it we should try to answer it. Your list may be a good continuation. Understand that a venture of this type could take quite some time, esp. in this manner. Could we perhaps discuss each one of the questions in a separate topic rather than lumping them all in this topic?
quote:BTW, re the topic for this discussion: "1000 Year Reign of Earthly Peace"....is this a description of this time that comes from a traditional teaching of men ...
Yes, I believe so. And thus, the reason for this topic.
More good questions to answer:
quote: -WHERE does this reign take place? -WHAT conditions will be introduced by this reign? -WHO will Christ and His saints reign over? -WHY will this thousand year reign be brought about? What purposes will it fulfill? -WHEN will it begin, in relation to other events foretold in scripture?
quote:I look forward to searching the scriptures with you as we seek to come to terms with this fascinating subject!
You asked:"Can we also agree on the following points?" 1.All scripture is inspired of God and useful for teaching. Nothing off limits. 2.Human intelligence is not sufficient to comprehend spiritual matters. Prayer is essential. 3.God rejects the proud but gives grace unto the humble. We must come willing to learn. 4.Let scripture interpret itself. If two passages contradict, we go back to scripture. 5.Utimately, the weight of evidence must prevail. One scripture will not overturn two others. 6.We understand that if we do not want to know the truth, God will give us strong delusions. 7.Scripture is not necessarily written in chronological order. Same for visions.
Absolutely!
You quoted me in part as follows: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[Revelation] prophecy will also be fulfilled in a very specific and literal manner... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you commented:"If you're speaking of time, then I think we disagree. It is rather apparent that some prophecies were stated in terms of days yet fulfilled in terms of years. However, with regard to the 1000 years in Revelation I have no problem agreeing that that time is years. Yet, I reserve the right to change my mind if we discover something else."
The portion that you quoted might be understood alone as saying that I believe that all prophecy is fulfilled literally. But I do believe that some prophesies are worded in figurative language.
Thus I am repeating what I wrote "for the reord". Please note that I was referring specificly to prophesies in which specific time periods are mentioned. "As far as I can tell, every fulfilled prophecy of scripture WHICH HAS INVOLVED A SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD in the original prophecy, has been fulfilled in exactly the same time period which was specified by the prophet. In other words, all other such prophecies have been literally fulfilled. So when a prophecy of a specific time period is made in the second last chapter of the Bible, should we not expect, from all the previous evidence, that this prophecy will also be fulfilled in a very specific and literal manner just like all the rest have been?"
Jeff, you commented above:"It is rather apparent that some prophecies were stated in terms of days yet fulfilled in terms of years."
I am interested in this observation. If it is true, then my observations, also mentioned above, are in error and there would be no need to expect such prophesies to consistently be fulfilled literally. Would you cite the examples of which you speak? What prophesies of scripture were stated in days but fulfilled in years?
If my observations have missed some such examples, I need to be aware of them and withdraw what I said about ALL such prophesies!
quote:Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
and...
quote:Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
It was these verses which unlock the mysteries of Daniel which had been "shut up" until the last days when knowledge increased and the books were opened.
posted
Jeff/Bruce, I come here to learn and to examine. So please don't be offended by the following questions. What if Faith is right regarding the 1000 year reign? Ephesian 2:5-6. Should Satan be bound within the true church? Mat 16:16-19. Would you please prove that the 1000 year reign has to be interpreted literally? Thanks
You wrote:"I refer you to quote: Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. and... quote: Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. It was these verses which unlock the mysteries of Daniel which had been "shut up" until the last days when knowledge increased and the books were opened."
Sorry! These are NOT prophesies given in days which were fulfilled in years! In Numbers 14, the 40 days were HISTORY! 40 days of searching the land by spies who rebelled against God and brought back and evil report! The 40 years of wandering in the wilderness were the prophesied consequences of 40 days of rebellion! The prophecy specified 40 years and it was fulfilled in forty years!
So too, Ezekiel 4:1-6 does NOT give a prophecy of a time in days which is actually fulfilled in years! Rather Ezekiel is instructed by God to PORTRAY, OR PICTURE (not PROPHECY!) Israel's and Judah's iniquities which were HISTORY! Ezekiel was to lie on his side for specified periods of DAYS which God said represented the periods of YEARS of the iniquity of His people. Again, Ezekiel did NOT prophesy a future event in DAYS, which event actually took YEARS to be accomplished!
I know full well the convoluted thinking that has lead "theologians" to supposedly "unlock" the mysteries of Daniel from such passages as these! They try to interpret PROPHECY (of future events) by using examples of HISTORY (past events)! All who do so are "mixing apples and oranges" and coming up with utter confusion!
It is thinking like this that has lead many to think of Daniel's weeks as periods of years! But they fail to realize that every single time the word "weeks" (SHEBUAH) is used in scripture, it ALWAYS refers to a period of 7 days (nothing more and nothing less!) Don't take my word for it, check out every reference to the word in scripture!
posted
Hi Faith, I'm referring to Mat 16:16-18 and possibly 18:18. I'm asking if there's a connection with Rev 20:1-3. What I'm trying to say is, the true church, who understand the truth through the Holy Spirit, should have the power to set free from sin. It may be far fetched but there are just too many problems with the literal 1000 year reign - until Bruce proves otherwise.
Email this page to someone.
