Rev. 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
**Just what is the first resurrection? When is it? Who goes through it? I truly believe it is the key to understanding Rev. 20 :1-7. Once we understand who those saints are, then we can begin to understand other details of the passage.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
**The gospel message, that we should have everlasting life. How do we obtain that life? By belief in Jesus. What happens when we believe? Do we remain the same sinful, dead men? Or do we change? What is the new life? What is being born again? Do we just say we believe and that’s it? Or does something happen to us upon conversion?
John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
**Did you realize that you were dead before your new birth? Those that hear and believe are” passed from death unto life.” How is that possible? We all die. It is appointed for man to die once.
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
**We know our physical bodies die from illness, accident or old age. It’s one thing we can count on besides taxes. BTW, did you ever think how long the “hour” has been since the gospel began going out? God’s time is not the same as ours.
John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: [26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
**So how is it that some shall never die?
. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years
**Those saints mentioned in Rev. 20 do not die the second death. Those who believe in Christ shall never die. Thus, since all men die once and afterward the judgment, (Heb.9) I believe it is safe to say the second death occurs at judgment.
Rev. 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev. 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev. 20:14 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev. 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
**From the only 4 verses mentioning the second death, we can see the overcomers do not get hurt of the second death. Aren’t believers overcomers? Those who go through the first resurrection do not suffer the second death. The second death is the lake of fire. The wicked suffer the second death or lake of fire. Thus, no believers go through the second death. Thus, those who do not go through the second death are those who went through the first resurrection and must be believers.
John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
**How shall those who were dead yet live?
Romans 4:17 (KJV) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
**Here in Rom. 6 I believe we find the answer as it describes the new birth.
Romans 6:3-10 (KJV) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
**We, our old spiritually dead, sinful selves are actually crucified with Christ and raised with him. He is the resurrection( John 11:25 above) and we are raised from spiritual death with him.
Romans 8:6 (KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
**Notice the peaceful life is to be spiritually minded, not an earthly utopia.
Romans 8:11 (KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
2 Cor. 1:9-10 (KJV) But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: [10] Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
**2Cor. Shows us that we have been delivered from death (1st resurrection) and that we will be delivered in the future (2nd resurrection at Christ coming and our changing to incorruptible)
Ephes. 2:1-6 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
**God has “raised us up” and we sit “in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” Doesn’t this describe a resurrection? Doesn’t it include all born again saints?
Ephes. 5:14 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
**Those that wake and “arise from the dead” have the light of Christ. Doesn’t that describe all born again saints?
Col. 2:10-14 (KJV) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [11] In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col. 3:1-4 (KJV) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
**Those of us who are risen with Christ, born of the spirit, are to seek the things above where Christ is now. We are not to seek earthly, worldly rule. We are not to look for a peaceful utopian earth. We are to look up!
1 John 3:14 (KJV) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
**How can it be any clearer? “We have passed from death unto life.” We have been raised or resurrected with Christ.
**The new birth is the 1st resurrection. Thus, we can know the saints who rule with Christ in Rev. 20 are born again saints. The time must be the day of salvation. The day of salvation began with Jesus’ ministry and still continues until his return.
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
**Well, it’s your turn. What do you all think? Am I so off the wall or not? What do you think the 1st resurrection is?
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Sorry for my confusion. I need to read this a couple of times. But, if you answer this question I may be able to understand sooner. First, let me paint the picture.
Jesus often spoke of what we call death as sleeping. Paul mentions those who sleep in Christ will awake at the last trump. I believe that God considers the 1st death as a sleep--waiting the resurrection. The 2nd death in the lake of fire is everlasting and I believe God considers that 2nd death to be the true death. People will arise from the 1st death but no one will arise from the 2nd death. Those who refuse to accept Jesus' death on their behalf must pay for their own sins by the 2nd death. But everyone is subject to the 1st death whether they be saved or not. If there are two deaths then everyone who dies, saved or unsaved, must be resurrected at least once. From Revelation we understand that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was past." I understand from this passage that the first resurrection will occur before the second because the saints who take part in the 1st resurrection live and reign with God for that same 1000 year time period.
Does this foregoing paragraph say basically the same thing you said in your post?
I do not believe that the 1st resurrection is a spiritual new birth. I believe that people are spiritually alive or dead but the resurrection deals with the body. I also believe that when a person exercises faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and accepts him as their personal Savior that their life changes by the power of God and they experience conversion. From that time their thoughts, words, and actions are governed by their love for Jesus. This is the new birth.
No, you are not off the wall. What you quoted is true but if I understand the point you are trying to make it would seem that you have misunderstood the new birth to be the 1st resurrection. In a sense, this is the true fulfillment of the new birth, but we are to live in hope and faith. Hope has no eyes and faith sees things that aren't visible. In other words, we have this hope and faith now. We are alive and quickened and are not dead--if we are in Christ who can never die. But that being said, we still are subject to bodily death because we remain in this corruptible temple until the time when Jesus changes our bodies either at the resurrection or at his coming. "In a moment, in the twinkling of the eye."
quote: Jesus often spoke of what we call death as sleeping. Paul mentions those who sleep in Christ will awake at the last trump. I believe that God considers the 1st death as a sleep--waiting the resurrection.
I can agree that the 1st death or physical death appointed to all men is called sleep and they wake at the last trump. I do believe they await the resurrection. I believe all men wake at the last trump, some to life and others to death. This is judgment, a final resurrection for all men.
quote: The 2nd death in the lake of fire is everlasting and I believe God considers that 2nd death to be the true death. People will arise from the 1st death but no one will arise from the 2nd death. Those who refuse to accept Jesus' death on their behalf must pay for their own sins by the 2nd death. But everyone is subject to the 1st death whether they be saved or not. If there are two deaths then everyone who dies, saved or unsaved, must be resurrected at least once.
I can agree.
quote: From Revelation we understand that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was past." I understand from this passage that the first resurrection will occur before the second because the saints who take part in the 1st resurrection live and reign with God for that same 1000 year time period.
I can agree.
quote:Does this foregoing paragraph say basically the same thing you said in your post?
Yes, sorry I was so hard to understand.
quote:I do not believe that the 1st resurrection is a spiritual new birth. I believe that people are spiritually alive or dead but the resurrection deals with the body.
Ah, here is where we differ. I believe the 1st resurrection deals with the spiritual new man in Christ, or the new birth.
quote:I also believe that when a person exercises faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus and accepts him as their personal Savior that their life changes by the power of God and they experience conversion. From that time their thoughts, words, and actions are governed by their love for Jesus. This is the new birth.
I can agree with that. So it seems we’re not to far apart in our understanding. Just the one point, does the 1st resurrection equal the new birth or not?
quote:No, you are not off the wall. What you quoted is true but if I understand the point you are trying to make it would seem that you have misunderstood the new birth to be the 1st resurrection.
If what I quoted is true, then how have I misunderstood the new birth as the 1st resurrection? With all the many scriptures that explain how the old man dies and the new man raises from the burial with Christ, why can’t it be a resurrection to spiritual life? The new birth deals with the spirit. We have spiritual birth, death (both body and soul) , why not spiritual resurrection too?
quote:In a sense, this is the true fulfillment of the new birth, but we are to live in hope and faith. Hope has no eyes and faith sees things that aren't visible. In other words, we have this hope and faith now. We are alive and quickened and are not dead--if we are in Christ who can never die. But that being said, we still are subject to bodily death because we remain in this corruptible temple until the time when Jesus changes our bodies either at the resurrection or at his coming. "In a moment, in the twinkling of the eye."
I’m not sure what you are saying,” in a sense this is true fulfillment of the new birth, but…….” But what?
Yes, we have been delivered and we also await final delivery. Is that the problem you see? How we are in the kingdom now in the spirit but on the earth; and how we wait for the return of Christ for our incorruptible bodies? We are in the world but not of the world. One day we will not be in the world but in the new heavens, earth and Jerusalem, the place Christ has gone to prepare for us. Just because we are raised with Christ now, doesn’t mean we don’t have hope for the future resurrection and our final reward.
I redid a study last night on the 2 births, deaths and resurrections and will post it too. Maybe it will clear up how I see things or maybe not.
BTW, you haven’t explained how you view the 1st resurrection?
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There are two births, two deaths and two resurrections.
WATER BIRTH AND SPRITUAL BIRTH
All men both wicked and righteous are born of water (physical birth from womb).
Only the righteous saints are born of spirit. (spiritual birth )
Only those who are born of both water and spirit can enter the kingdom.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
PHYSICAL DEATH
All men both wicked and righteous die first death (physical) unless here at 2nd coming.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
SECOND DEATH
The second death does not affect the overcomers, the saints, those who have been born spiritually. The second death is the judgment or reward of the wicked. Since the wicked are not spirit filled ,nor gain eternal life as believers but rather perish; I see this as a final death. Many verses speak of the wicked being burned up as chaff or the fat of lambs, etc. They are destroyed in the lake of fire. (body and soul)
Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Who are priests of God, who reigns with him, who are overcomers? Saints!
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The wicked are cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death. This is when and where the soul and body of the wicked are destroyed.
SECOND OR GENERAL RESURRECTION
All men who are dead physically at 2nd coming take part in second resurrection. Some will rise to life and others to the resurrection of damnation, which is the judgment of the lake of fire or second death mentioned above. While many claim these are two separate resurrections, it all happens at the time of Christ reward and is in essence one event, judgment. It is called the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
1 Cor. 15 explains those physically dead (sleeping in the grave) in Christ will be raised incorruptible, since we know those physically dead wicked shall be raised to damnation or the second death. Not only the saints are raised up from the physical graves to receive their final reward changing into an eternal being; but also those saints living on the earth at the time will be changed.
1 Cor. 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Luke 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Luke 20:35-36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.[/font]
Notice the children of God can’t die any more and are called children of the resurrection which refers to the first spiritual resurrection (they are the one’s that the second final death can’t harm.)
Christ brings his reward with him. Some rise from the grave to life and others to death.
This final resurrection is on the last day, judgment day.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Those who believe in Christ, the resurrection, shall live.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
FIRST RESURRECTION
The only verse that mentions a “first” resurrection, thus implying there must be a second is:
Rev. 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This first resurrection is for believers and the second death or final destruction at judgment will not affect them.
There is a resurrection on judgment day which includes all men, both the saints and the wicked, who receive their just rewards accordingly. All these are raised at the same time, when Jesus returns. Since it is the final resurrection, then it must not be the first. We know that the wicked have no part in the first one. So when is it?
The new birth or spiritual birth must be the first resurrection. It is only logical since only those who have undergone this first resurrection are the ones who will not be destroyed at the final resurrection on judgment day. Judgment occurs when he returns. We know on judgment day both righteous and wicked are raised to different rewards but they are all raised from the grave and those righteous who are not raised from the grave at this time, for they are still living on earth at Christ return, do not go through this general resurrection for all men. Thus, since they don’t go through the second death, there must be another resurrection that they have already gone through to protect them from the second death.
Those in the first resurrection are filled with his spirit and live as new men in Christ, they are born of the spirit. Our old sinful man is put to death.
[font color=red]Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Col. 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
I think Col. 2:12 explains the first resurrection we “are risen with him though the faith of the operation of God.”..We are still in a physical body; but our hearts and minds are changed by God. As believers we now have the promise of becoming spirit beings and living eternally with our Lord at judgment day. How can we not see that being risen with him is a spiritual resurrection? Our new man comes to life. Basically we were dead to God, we were dead in sin but our new man awakes or arises and comes to life in Christ. We are now spiritually living or living in the spirit.
BTW, I know most teach the first resurrection is at Christ coming or the rapture. However there are many scriptures which explain that Christ raises both those physically dead or asleep in him and those physically dead wicked at the same time, at his coming and judgment. It is the last resurrection for it is at the end. The first would happen before the 1,000 years ended.
Rev. 20:5 (KJV) “ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished….”
Notice it doesn’t specify that there is 1,000 years between the first and second resurrections but that the rest of the dead do not rise until the 1,000 year period is finished. Thus, those who are in the first resurrection could be raised at any time before the 1,000 year period is over.
A summary of the births, deaths and resurrections:
born of water All men both righteous and wicked have a physical birth from the womb. born of spirit only the saints have a spiritual birth called the new birth
physical death All men both righteous and wicked have a physical death, unless alive at second coming of Christ. second death only the wicked suffer the death of both soul and body.
first resurrectiononly for the saints, protects from the second death that occurs at the second or general resurrection of all men. It is spiritual in nature. second or general resurrection resurrection of all men at Christ return, some to life and some to damnation or second death.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Way back in school they taught us when writing or investigating a subject to include: who, what, when, where and how. Maybe that would help in looking at Rev. 20.
We have two subjects, the saints and Satan. I’ll continue with the saints for now because they are in the first resurrection and reign with Christ. I believe the identity of these saints will help us to understand when the first resurrection and reign with Christ is.
Rev. 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Who: Saints (explained by what) or martyrs (Does it actually say all these people were beheaded?)
What: reign with Christ as priests, sit on thrones, go through 1st resurrection, have witness of Jesus and the word of God, some beheaded for their witness, didn’t worship the beast or get mark, judgment was given to them, they were blessed and holy.
When: during 1,000 year time, before the second death, time of first resurrection
Where: sitting on thrones, lived with Christ (Doesn’t say where Christ is or where thrones are.)
How: with Christ.
How do we know these people are saints? Because of what they do or have. See “What” above.
How can we know when these people are reigning, going through 1st resurrection, witnessing for Jesus, being persecuted, not worshiping the beast, receiving judgment, and being blessed and holy?
Do we sit with Christ now, are we raised up with him (resurrected)?
Ephes. 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Luke 22:30 (KJV) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Scripture says we’ll judge if we followed Christ in the regeneration. Are we regenerated yet? Isn’t regeneration the washing that comes with salvation?
Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Are the thrones and such necessarily visible now?
Col. 1:16 (KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Are we already kings and priests. If so don’t we already reign on the earth?
Rev. 1:6 (KJV) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev. 5:10 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Even though we sit in the heavenlies with Christ, we are in the world, thus reigning in the world, though not of the world. We are here in the physical but reigning in the spirit and walking in the spirit. He has sent us into the world.
John 15:19 (KJV) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:14-18 (KJV) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
What time period have saints been witnessing, been persecuted, not worshiped the false systems, been blessed, been holy, been judged or considered judges?
I won’t give scripture for all those but think you can see where this is headed. Haven’t the saints, since the preaching of the gospel, done all these things?
Thus, who are these saints? And what time period have they lived and ruled?
I’m finished on this point till I see how you view the 1st resurrection.
Well, you have certainly given me a lot of questions to answer. I believe that if I answer just one then many of the others will also be answered. If that is not the case then I can attempt to answer them as time allows.
How do I view the 1st resurrection?
Resurrection applies to real bodies raised from the dust of the ground. New birth applies to the death of the carnal man and rebirth of a spiritual man. Just because the word carnal means fleshly this cannot be literally interpretted as this: "New birth applies to the death of the flesh and resurrection of a spirit." The carnal man spoken of hear refers to our natural inclination to be wordly in our thoughts, desires, and actions. However, the spiritual man doesn't think of earhtly things. His mind is stayed on God. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." "Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." Therefore, "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Notice again the words of Jesus. "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
To me this is talking about two (2) resurrections 1. The resurrection of life 2. The resurrection of damnation
Again, I believe two (2) resurrections are spoken of in Revelation 20. The first resurrection strongly suggests that there is a second resurrection.
In Revelation 20:4 it speaks of souls that reign with Christ a thousand years. Certainly, some of these were resurrected because many have simply died of old age and certainly some were beheaded or burned. So in verse 4 we have a group that were bodily deceased that have been resurrected. But we know that not all of the dead were resurrected with this group because verse 5 specifically states that, "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." So this rest of the dead were not resurrected with the other dead because they are the rest, or remainder, of them.
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I had already understood that you believed both resurrections were physical or bodily. You mention the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation as two resurrections. Thus, do you see them as the first and second? If so how do you reconcile the time difference in them as some rise to life, others to death at Christ return and not 1,000 years apart. Remember, he only returns one time. There is no scriptural evidence for a third or fourth as is needed for some theories to play out.
I still see: a physical birth & a spiritual birth, a physical death & and a spiritual death, a spiritual resurrection & a physical resurrection.
Please explain more on how you view 1st resurrection.
posted
Well, I think scripturally everyone has a bit of trouble explaining the 1000 years. Let me try again in this manner.
See waaay below... (Not sure why HTML tables behave in this manner.)
REVELATION 20
SCRIPTURE
COMMENTS
1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
key and chain
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
bound 1000 years
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Satan is not allowed to deceive the nations during 1000 year period. This does not imply that everyone will then embrace the truth. There is something else going on here. The wicked one has been destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming. The wicked have cried for the rocks to fall on them. The Lord has called the birds to a great feast of the flesh of kings and commoners alike. Some have been taken and others left. The world is uninhabited. It is desolate. (Make me prove these statements with scripture).
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Those doing the judging have faithfully withstood the great tribulation and did not worship the beast. They have already been judged worthy and are reaping the reward of living with Christ for ever more. At the last trump, they were caught up in the air to be with Christ. During this 1000 year period they review the record books in heaven. The wicked are suspended in the grave, reserved for fire and hell. We know the outcome of this review. The Saints will agree with the judgment of God who is righteous, just, meriful, truthful, and faithful.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This is a very important text. A certain number take part in the first resurrection but the rest remain dead during the 1000 years.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Mention is again made of the same 1000 years showing the happy, holy state of the same Saints reigning with God.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Prison? What is Satan's prison? What did he do before he was locked up and what will he do after? Deceive the nations! So his prison sentence is to be separated from the nations he wishes to deceive. This would be the case if the righteous were taken to heaven to review the books and the wicked were laying slain upon the face of the earth a foder for birds. There would be no one to deceive. The earth then becomes Satan's abyss. And the chains become chains of circumstances. He can do nothing now because his hands are tied, figuratively.
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
This is not a small number but must represent all of the deceived ever. Remember, the 1000 years is passed, the 2nd resurrection has occurred, and the rest of the dead are alive on earth. Figuratively, Satan has been loosed. The circumstances which bound his hands during the 1000 years have been removed by the 2nd resurrection of the wicked dead. Now Satan begins his work of deceiving the nations. His last deception is to tell them they can overtake the city of God and enter in by force. His methods have always been rooted in human effort, belittling the sacrifice of Jesus.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Notice they go up on the earth and surround the beloved city. At the time the fires come down to devour them they have already been judged. The review of God's judgment upon the wicked happened during the 1000 years. Then at the end of the 1000 years they are raised to receive their just reward according to the works they have done.
Notice the mercy of God mixed with justice in this event. For 1000 years we review the records of the wicked and see the forebearance and wooing of God to save them. We see their obstinate rejection of His grace. God allows us to see the whole thing before He executes sentence of their final reward. That is the justice and mercy of God. God wants us to trust Him and love Him. Thus, He allows us to review His judgment of the wicked so we can question anything at that time. After this, He pours out their eternal punishment upon them, but not before.
posted
You're covering a bit too much at a time. Specifically what do you see the first resurrection being? Who is it for and exactly when do you see them rising and what are they rising too?
quote:The wicked one has been destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming. The wicked have cried for the rocks to fall on them. The Lord has called the birds to a great feast of the flesh of kings and commoners alike. Some have been taken and others left. The world is uninhabited. It is desolate. (Make me prove these statements with scripture).
Looks like you are saying the 1,000 years is after Christ coming. Thus, I disagree. I don't have much time to explain today; but will eventually get to it. Why do you think the wicked one has been destroyed? Who do you think the wicked one is? I believe it is Satan, and thus he couldn't be bound if he were destroyed. I believe the discussion of satan should be on a different thread. As well as one for the timing of the second coming and what happens then. Each is quite a large subject in itself.
quote:Satan is not allowed to deceive the nations during 1000 year period. This does not imply that everyone will then embrace the truth.
I can agree with the first part of your statement.
I'm still waiting for your actual belief of who is in the first resurrection, when and purpose of.
posted
Another thing to notice about the judgment by the Saints. Every just legal proceeding follows a particular path through the justice system.
The order goes like this for a guilty person.
The Accusation
The Hearing of the Evidence by the Judge
The Trial to Decide Guilt or Innocence
The Defense Attorney Pleads the Case of the Accused
The Sentencing by the Judge
The Execution of the Sentence
If we compare God's judgment to our earthly justice system we find many similarities.
The Accusation of the Broken Law of God
The Review of Evidence by the Judge
Our Mediator, Christ, Pleads His Blood for Repentent
The Verdict
The Sentence of Eternal Damnation
The Execution of the Sentence
What part do the Saints play in this process? Well, I don't see that they can participate until they have been judged worthy. That doesn't happen until the verdict is read. Likewise, their sentence has already been determined and they are enjoying the execution of that sentence which for them is eternal life. So, with this evidence before us, the earliest entry into the justice system in heaven for the participation of the Saints would be the sentencing phase of the wicked. Considering all of these factors, I believe the Saints will review the verdict and the sentence during the 1000 years so they can see the mercy and justice of God when the sentence is executed. We must remember that there will be loved ones we have known that will be among those judged guilty. It is going to take some time and review to comprehend the justice of God's punishment upon those whom we loved, and perhaps had always assumed were saved. Only after this has taken place can God wipe away all of our tears. Only after we understand the longsuffering of God in His efforts to save all men can we begin to understand why this terrible, unusual act of God must take place.
posted
Okay, I finished explaining Revelation 20 with my views on 1st resurrection. I also added some comments about why I think my view is correct. Please see two posts new posts of mine above.
posted
Looks like we are reading/replying at the same time. I have finished my comments on Rev 20. If you viewed it earlier when it was a ***work in progress*** you may want to read it again.
Yes, I did include quite a bit in that one post.
You are still asking for my "...actual belief of who is in the first resurrection, when and purpose of."
Let me see if I can answer that very briefly.
Q) Who A) Those who died in Christ
Q) When A) At the last trump
Q) Purpose A) It is their final reward of Eternal Life with God
posted
OK, So if I read you right, you see the 1st resurrection as the resurrection to life. Then you see the 1,000 years as a time of judgment. Do you mean the day of the Lord last 1,000 years? And you see the second resurrection occuring at the end of the 1,000 year time for the wicked to face sentancing. Is that about right?
I have considered that myself at one time. I see we agree the saints go up at the last trumpet. However, I believe the saints had a spiritual rising or resurrection at conversion. I believe all men rise at the last trump but have different rewards. I thihk it mentions resurrection to life and to damnation to explain the different rewards that men obtain when they hear this last trumpet.
Will post on this subject on new thread.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
posted
Still waiting for reply to: OK, So if I read you right, you see the 1st resurrection as the resurrection to life. Then you see the 1,000 years as a time of judgment. Do you mean the day of the Lord last 1,000 years? And you see the second resurrection occuring at the end of the 1,000 year time for the wicked to face sentancing. Is that about right?
As for the many verses like Ephes. 2, Col.2:10-14 and Col. 3:1-4 which speak of being dead and quickened, raised and sitting with Christ,how do we know they are speaking of the new birth? Do they actually mention it? Couldn't they be speaking of the first resurrection just as easily? Couldn't these two things be related? I think the passages describe more of a resurrection (raised from dead) than a birth.
Ephes. 2:1-6 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
quote:Considering all of these factors, I believe the Saints will review the verdict and the sentence during the 1000 years so they can see the mercy and justice of God when the sentence is executed. We must remember that there will be loved ones we have known that will be among those judged guilty. It is going to take some time and review to comprehend the justice of God's punishment upon those whom we loved, and perhaps had always assumed were saved.
Where do you find all that in scriptures please?
I know I've brought up a lot of questions and directly asked several. Take your time, I'll try to slow down a while. Please use scriptures to explain your answers. Thanks.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
quote:Still waiting for reply to: OK, So if I read you right, you see the 1st resurrection as the resurrection to life. Then you see the 1,000 years as a time of judgment. Do you mean the day of the Lord last 1,000 years? And you see the second resurrection occuring at the end of the 1,000 year time for the wicked to face sentancing. Is that about right?
Yes, pretty close. During the 1000 years the Saints will be reviewing the record books of the lost considering the justice of God's decisions.
Not sure how long the "Day of the Lord" lasts, but Peter did say "A day with the Lord is 1000 years." But, I don't interpret that to mean it as I used it here.
Yes, 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years. Revelation 20 does say that the "rest" of the dead live not again until the 1000 years is past.
posted
Hi Jeff, I used to think the day of the Lord was the 1,000 years just because I couldn't figure out where else to put it. The timing of things at the last trump proved that Christ came at the last day, thus, I figured that last day must be the 1,000, until I examined the passage closer. Rev. 20 really doesn't give us any indication when the 1,000 is. We must take cues from other things mentioned in the passage to figure it out.
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I’m not an expert at grammar but what does “This is the first resurrection” refer to? It definitely doesn’t say there is 1,000 years between the 1st and 2nd resurrections. I looks to me as if it is actually explaining what the 1,000 years are.
Some lived with Christ during this 1,000 years. Some dead woke after this 1,000 years. This is the first resurrection. The 1,000 year time in which some reigned is the first resurrection.
Or it almost looks like the phrase “This is the first resurrection” is describing the sentence before it which would mean the time the rest of the dead woke was the 1,000 years. That can’t be right for this is the “rest” of the dead, meaning that some other dead have already woke in a previous resurrection.
Thus, I believe the 1,000 =1st resurrection. I believe the scripture I gave for those dead in sin and raising with Christ to a new life and with those of the last trump as there is no more time for such a 1,000 yr explain it much better, and in more detail. The previous belief I had that 1,000=day of the Lord was just a guesstament but couldn't find actually scripture to explain it.
Here’s a couple of questions you still haven’t answered.
J said: In a sense, this is the true fulfillment of the new birth, but we are to live in hope and faith. Hope has no eyes and faith sees things that aren't visible. In other words, we have this hope and faith now. We are alive and quickened and are not dead--if we are in Christ who can never die. But that being said, we still are subject to bodily death because we remain in this corruptible temple until the time when Jesus changes our bodies either at the resurrection or at his coming. "In a moment, in the twinkling of the eye." ________________________________________ F question: I’m not sure what you are saying,” in a sense this is true fulfillment of the new birth, but…….” But what?
F question: As for the many verses like Ephes. 2, Col.2:10-14 and Col. 3:1-4 which speak of being dead and quickened, raised and sitting with Christ,how do we know they are speaking of the new birth? Do they actually mention it? Couldn't they be speaking of the first resurrection just as easily? Couldn't these two things be related? I think the passages describe more of a resurrection (raised from dead) than a birth. How can that be explained?
J said: Considering all of these factors, I believe the Saints will review the verdict and the sentence during the 1000 years so they can see the mercy and justice of God when the sentence is executed. We must remember that there will be loved ones we have known that will be among those judged guilty. It is going to take some time and review to comprehend the justice of God's punishment upon those whom we loved, and perhaps had always assumed were saved. ________________________________________ F question: Where do you find all that in scriptures please?
posted
Let's talk about the 1st resurrection. If it is, as you contend, a spiritual awakening from a spiritual death, then in what manner was Jesus resurrected? Did He need to be spiritually resurrected? No! Yet, our faith is based on His resurrection. He went into the tomb and after three days he arose.
quote:1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
I don't understand why you wish to make these two resurrrection different in nature? Why is one spiritual and the other physical? Revelation 20 does say that the Saints which died reign with Christ for 1000 years while the rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are finished. How do the dead Saints reign if they are not resurrected?
From what I am hearing I believe you are convinced that Christ's kingdom is now on earth and the Saints are now reigning with Him for 1000 years and they are judging even now.
Of course, Christ did not need a spiritual awaking. He was raised from the dead (physical bodily death).
1 Cor. 15:12-13 (KJV) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor. 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Cor. mentions the resurrection of the dead and explains this is what happened to Christ. He was the firstfruit. Thus, even the resurrection from the dead had at least one person, Christ, who rose before the end.
Acts 24:15 (KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
We can see from Acts 24 that the resurrection of the dead is one resurrection for both the just and unjust. This is when Christ returns. I've shown the many verses dealing with that previously.
quote:I don't understand why you wish to make these two resurrrection different in nature? Why is one spiritual and the other physical?
I don't wish to do anything but understand truth. The many scriptures I gave you which mention death, burial and being raised (resurrected) with Christ speak of our spiritual awaking. (I didn't make up these verses, it is not my idea that there is a spiritual resurrection, it is God's words.) These passages have nothing to do with the time the dead(physically) are raised (resurrection of the dead). I know REV. 20 is a hard passage. I let it sit for many years until the light went on and I realized what was meant by 1st resurrection. Once I did, many other things came to light.
quote: Revelation 20 does say that the Saints which died reign with Christ for 1000 years while the rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are finished. How do the dead Saints reign if they are not resurrected?
Rev. 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
Does the scripture actually say those siting on the thrones getting judgment were dead? No.
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Here we see the "souls of them that were beheaded." Thus, these souls would be dead or would they? I did a word search on beheaded and found it could mean persecuted, beat up, etc. Thus, it could encompass all saints who ever lived and had persecution and tribulation. We've already discussed the fact that the church has to have tribulation in order to enter the kingdom.
Thus, all we can say is that some of these saints appear to have been killed. We also know that some saints would die a natural death during a long time period of 1,000 years or over the age of the church era. Now I know you believe the dead saints are asleep as do I. Thus, how could the saints reign over the past 2,000 years? We have been given orders to occupy till he comes, as the church. Individuals die as new converts take their position. It is the church body, the overcomers, that are reigning. We are to spread the gospel as his priests until he returns. We are his lights to the world during this time.
Another reason you see it the way you do is because you are thinking that those who didn't take the mark must be future saints and thus the 1,000 years would be future. I say this because I once believed this myself. Now,I believe that all saints martyered for their witness would be considered as not having the MOB. I will try to find my study on MOB and on beheaded and post them somewhere. They are just more puzzle pieces.
Well what about the rest of the dead being raised? We've already seen that the final resurrection of the dead refers to judgment day and the rewards of both righteous and wicked. So these are the ones the rest refers to. It refers to all dead people at Christ return, dead saints and dead unbelievers. We can't tell that from this passage alone but must refer to the many passages that speak of the end of time and the resurrection of the dead on the last day.
quote:From what I am hearing I believe you are convinced that Christ's kingdom is now on earth and the Saints are now reigning with Him for 1000 years and they are judging even now.
I was just looking up passages on judging last night. Will try to finish that up soon and post. BTW, how do you see this passage? Are these people sitting in the heavenly place in Christ the same as those on thrones reigning? We reign positionally in Christ.
Ephes. 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Please read my private message to you. I do believe now that the new birth is a spiritual resurrection. I can see that more clearly now. But, I think we still have 2 resurrections of bodies going on in Rev 20 and John 5. We will come to that, hopefully, as we discuss other topics.
When you simply look at three verses from scripture it is very clear to me that the righteous are resurrected apart from the wicked and that the wicked are not alive during a 1000 year period following the resurrection of the righteous.
Let's start in Daniel 12
Daniel 12 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Implies two types of everlasting resurrections. 1) Life 2) Contemp
Then let's look at Jesus' own words.
Matt 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It does say that all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. That does not mean that they have to all come forth together. Again, there are two resurrections implied here.
1) Resurrection of life 2) Resurrection of damnation
That is just so plain that there are two resurrections.
Now, let's see what Revelations has to say about the two. Do the saints and the wicked come forth in the same general resurrection?
Rev 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Obviously, in verse 4 those that were killed for Jesus are resurrected and live and reigh with Christ a thousand years. But this is not speaking of a spiritual resurrection. It is talking about a physical resurrection of the body as Paul talked about in 1 Cor 15 where we receive our incorruptible bodies.
I already agreed that each of us experience a spiritual resurrection when we accept Christ. That has been happening since sin entered the world. We cannot count that as the first resurrection spoken of in these verses. This is talking about coming forth from the grave, the dust of the earth. "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 1 Corinthians 15:55
Verse 4 says that those who died live and reign with Christ 1000 years. This doesn't mean they die after 1000 years. They can never die again. This means that they reign with God in heaven to carry out the judgment while the earth lays desolate and keeps her sabbaths.
Remember, God works on the principal of work 6 days, rest on the 7th. In the OT he told the Israelites to work their fields for 6 years and let them lay fallow in the 7th year. They did not obey. They worked the land 7 years--continuoulsy. When they were taken to Babylon, the land enjoyed her sabbaths because no man was in the land. Peter said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Well, the earth is about 6 thousand years old. I think the Lord will come and rest the land for 1000 years during the 7th thousand years by taking the saints to heaven for that 1000 year rest and slaying the wicked on the face of the earth during the same period.
Verse 4 says those killed for Jesus live with him 1000 years. Verse 5 says that the rest of the dead lived not again until that 1000 years is finished. If the saints live with Christ during the 1000 years, then who are the "rest of the dead" that do not live during the 1000 years? It is those who did not die in Christ. It refers to the wicked. So the wicked are dead in the grave while the saints live and reign with Christ for this 1000 years when the earth rest her sabbath rest.
In fact, verse 5 says, "This is the first resurrrection." It can't be the resurrection of the dead because they live not again until the 1000 years is finished. However the saints do live with Christ during this 1000 years. So the 1st resurrection is the saints killed for Jesus.
In verse 6 we read that those who take part in the 1st resurrection cannot die the 2nd death. Certainly, they died the 1st death but were resurrected in the 1st resurrection. According to scripture they cannot die again. However, since there is a second death, and it is reserved for the wicked, then there must also be a second resurrection to bring again to life the wicked to receive the second death (lake of fire). Since those who came forth in the 1st resurrection cannot die it is obvious that the wicked cannot be raised with the saints in that 1st resurrection. They must be raised at a later time. In fact, after the 1000 years is over.
Now, when the 1000 years is over we see Satan is loosed and he goes out to deceive a number of people that is as the sand of the sea. Thus, the wicked are raised after the 1000 years and Satan is loosed to go about to do his usual work of deception. He is incorrigible. Even after 1000 years to think about his part in all this he still has no redeeming quality. As soon as the masses are resurrected he begins his work of deception. Thus, when Christ destroys him the whole universe will understand that even given 1000 years to repent he does not. Therefore, he must be destroyed and no one will think it an unjust act.
Well, I hope I have made my position a little clearer.
quote:When you simply look at three verses from scripture it is very clear to me that the righteous are resurrected apart from the wicked and that the wicked are not alive during a 1000 year period following the resurrection of the righteous.
That is the problem, you are looking at only three verses. What of the rest on the subject?
Yes, I agree that Dan. 12 implies two types of everlasting resurrections.
Regarding Matt. 5:28-29 you stated:
quote: It does say that all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. That does not mean that they have to all come forth together. Again, there are two resurrections implied here.
Again implied. However, the passage does state “the hour is coming” not days or years, especially 1,000 years between the two types of resurrection. Thus, it would be safe to say they all heard and all rose during the hour. Which is further supported by Christ who brings his reward when he comes.
quote:Now, let's see what Revelations has to say about the two. Do the saints and the wicked come forth in the same general resurrection?
Again you are basing a belief on one passage, Rev. 20. There are many passages about the resurrection of the dead when all hear and rise, some to life and others to death. I won’t repeat those scriptures. However they show that all dead people in the graves, both good and evil, arise at the return of Christ. Some to life and some to death. Not two bodily resurrections. The physically dead body rises once. However, two different types of people arise to different fates.
If I said all people should go to the grocery store on Monday at the hour of 1 pm, some to Wal Mart and some to Kroger, would their be two different times of shopping? Or would there be two different destinations?
The idea of the earth being 6,000 years old and in need of a rest is just a theory with no, absolutely no scripture to back it up.
I think I already understood what your position is. I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this one.
Faith
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Before you go... look at these two usages of the phrase "the hour is coming."
quote:John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
The phrase "the hour is coming" is not speaking of 60 minutes of time but rather an appointed time or a definite time. The first usage is speaking of the spiritual resurrection, is it not? How long is th
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Please use scriptures to explain your answers. Thanks.