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Thought I post this question I had from the 1st resurrection thread here so we can keep topics a bit seperated, eventhough they are bound to overlap.
J said: The wicked one has been destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming. The wicked have cried for the rocks to fall on them. The Lord has called the birds to a great feast of the flesh of kings and commoners alike. Some have been taken and others left. The world is uninhabited. It is desolate. (Make me prove these statements with scripture). ________________________________________ F question: Looks like you are saying the 1,000 years is after Christ coming. Thus, I disagree. I don't have much time to explain today; but will eventually get to it. Why do you think the wicked one has been destroyed? Who do you think the wicked one is? I believe it is Satan, and thus he couldn't be bound if he were destroyed. I believe the discussion of satan should be on a different thread. As well as one for the timing of the second coming and what happens then. Each is quite a large subject in itself.
I might add if the wicked one, Satan (as I see it), is destroyed at Christ coming, then how could he be loosed 1,000 years after Christ came? He would already be dead. I do see Satan destroyed at Christ return but not loosed later. I see him loosed just before Christ comes. Will not get into it yet until you have time to answer other threads.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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Yes, our misunderstanding here is rooted in our disagreement regarding the 1st and 2nd resurrections and the manner and timeline of Christs coming. I will try to answer this more fully after we have progressed in those other areas.
I've been thinking a lot about the time Satan is bound and who the restrainer is and how it fits into the 1,000 year reign of the saints. I have heard the millennium theory and variations of pre, mid, and post , pre-wrath trib, pre-mil, post-mil, amil, etc. I found problems with all these views, as Jesus returns bringing his reward with him for both the righteous and unrighteous: life and damnation, destroying the heaven and earth and delivering the saints up to God’s kingdom and the new heavens and earth at the last trump.
In Rev. 20, we see an angel lays hold on the Devil and binds him 1,000 years so he can't deceive the nations until the 1,000 years is fulfilled and then he is loosed a little season.
We also see the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and did not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark on their heads or hands. They lived and reigned with Christ 1,000 years. They were in the first resurrection as the rest of the dead lived not till the 1,000 years was finished. The second death had no power over them. They shall be priests of God and Christ and reign 1,000 years. Then Satan is loosed to deceive the nations and gather them together to battle.
Christians are to be priests of God now, aren't we? The old priesthood of the OT has been done away with and Jesus is our high priest. We are his disciples and to go and preach the gospel to the world; rather than warm a pew. Aren't we in the kingdom of Christ now? Of course he promises to come back and deliver us up to God later into an eternal kingdom.
1 Cor. 15:23-26 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father...
I thought of the inquisition and various persecutions throughout history. I couldn't figure out how Satan could be bound during the same time if this was indeed the time the saints were ruling with Christ as priests. I looked up the words bound, bind, etc. I found first of all God's word is not bound! Amen!
2 Tim. 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
Then I found that the Lord can set limits or boundaries as to what people and spirits can do, be it ordinary folk, kings, princes or even the devil.
Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Ex. 19:12 An thou shalt set bounds unto the people...
Deut. 32:8; Isa. 10:13; Acts 17:26
Ps. 105:22 To bind his princes...
Ps.149:8 To bind their kings...
Rev. 20 Satan bound
He can also hold back water and floods.
Job 26:8; Job 28:11[/color]
I had always thought of persecutions, temptations & sin as satan being on the loose. It seemed to me he has been on the loose since the garden. Satan was bound in Rev. 20. In 2 Thes. We see that the mystery of iniquity is already working and has been for 2000 + years. How could Satan be bound, yet still work? Then I remembered Job. God allowed satan to afflict Job in many ways to test him; but not to kill him. God set boundaries that satan couldn't cross relating to Job's life. Job surely felt persecuted. Satan surely did aggravate him a lot; but ultimately Satan couldn't destroy Job because God had set the boundary. Just like the many examples above God sets boundaries on many people and situations.
Since the start of the church, beginning with Jesus testimony, then the Holy Ghost, the church has been under attack from the spirit of anti-Christ. However, God said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. I realized that just because Satan is bound doesn’t mean that he can't work. Satan tested Job sorely; but had limits. Satan surely does test the church; but can't prevail because God has set the boundary. There will always be a remnant. Satan can't destroy God's church. He has been given permission to kill some as we are told to be faithful even to death.
Jesus said it was finished just before he died.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
What was finished? He put away sin. He did away with the old system. He made a way for us to receive eternal life.
Ephes. 1:20-2:1 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, [21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: [22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
He put all things under his feet. He is our head.
Ephes. 2:1-6 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
We used to be dead in sin walking as the world. He quickened us and raised us. (spiritual new life)
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
His death took power over the death and the devil.
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:9-12 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
His sacrifice freed us from sin, from bondage to satan. If we are filled with Christ, there is no room for Satan. We can’t serve two masters.
He also bound satan in other ways. He gave us authority over the powers of darkness. Satan is bound and can’t work in the believers if they use the authority of Christ in their lives.
Mark 3:15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Luke 10:19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [5] Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We are kept by the power of God, nothing can hurt us or take our salvation and promise of eternal life away, we can resist the devil. He has no power over us unless we give it to him. Doesn’t that sound like he is bound?
Rev. 20 says he shall deceive the nations no more till the 1,000 years is over. He has certainly been testing the church's faith since it's beginning. A small remnant has remained faithful, those who have been born again of spirit to the new life. We died with Christ and were resurrected with him to a new life: the first resurrection. (I had difficulty understanding the 2 resurrections because scripture says ALL eyes will see him when he comes in the CLOUDS, even those who pierced him. Thus, how could there be two resurrections? It is a spiritual resurrection to the new life. Those who have been born of the spirit will not die the second death in the lake of fire.)
Rev. 1:7 Beholds, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
We put on the new man, new spirit, new life & die to our old life.
Ephes. 4:22-24 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; [24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col. 3:9-11 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.[/color]
We die to self, our old man dies. We are resurrected in the new life, the new man.
Rom. 6:5-14 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:...
We know the second death, when all who rejected Christ shall be judged and cast into the lake of fire to be burned up as chaff, has no effect on his remnant.
Matt. 3:12...he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17 ...will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Most saints have or will die the first physical death, unless we are alive when Christ returns. We are to receive eternal life not death. All people do not have eternal life regardless of belief. It is given to those who believe, the rest perish. (John 3:16) That is why God guarded the tree of life from Adam and Eve, so they would not have eternal life in their sinful state of rebellion. (Gen. 3:22)
When is satan loosed to deceive the nations to gather them to battle as described in Rev. 20?
In 2 Thes. 2 , we are told, regarding the coming of our Lord to gather us, not to be shaken nor deceived. (verse1-3) We are told that there must first come a falling away. I believe we are seeing that to a greater degree today. We are told the man of sin, son of perdition, who sets himself up as God, must be revealed. (verses 3-4) Ultimately, that is satan; regardless of any humans he decides to use.
Notice the description of satan.
Isa. 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne about the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[color:red]2 Thes. 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/color]
In both of the above passages we see satan ascending to heaven on a throne, acting as if he is God.
We see in verses 6-8 of 2 Thes. 2 that someone is holding back or restraining the wicked one even though the mystery of iniquity is already at work. (bound but working) Some say this restrainer is the church or the Holy Spirit.
However, it is plain in Rev. the the saints, overcomers who remain faithful and have the testimony of Jesus, the remnant, the ones written in the book of life, the church are still here when Jesus comes back. (Don’t let it throw you just because they are not called church specifically later in Rev. Remember the many names of God or Jesus. Believers are also called several names throughout scriptures.) The Holy Spirit is still be here living in them.
If you really think about it who can have the power to restrain Satan? Only God regardless of who or what he uses to do the binding. Rev. mentions an angel God used to bind him. Who cast him down from heaven? Who had him bound for 1,000 years? And remember Michael didn't rebuke Satan; but called on the Lord to rebuke him.(Jude 1:9) He will also consume and destroy Satan and those who believe the lie, a strong delusion sent by God because they believed not the truth. 2 Thes. 2:8-12
Where are we today? I see many churches have fallen away into the strong delusion. I see Satan working many signs and lying wonders (verse 9) in the name it and claim it groups. I see many men being used of Satan to set up a world government and religion. I see many ways of tracking down true Christians by these people via their satellites and chips, to either kill or indoctrinate, in hopes of exterminating the church. I see many laws being passed to stop the spread of the gospel. (It's too offensive and hateful for the world's taste.) I see God's word being torn to shreds with the many new translations. Satan is warring with the saints and gathering an army to fight the Lord. If he isn’t loose yet, I don’t think it will be long.
How long shall it be before the Lord comes? If you notice Rev. 6:9-12 at the fifth seal many are slain for the word of God and his testimony. That has been going on for centuries. The Lord tells them to rest until the remaining number of brethren, who are to be killed, is fulfilled. The sixth seal then shows the sun darkening and the moon as blood just before Jesus returns. Matt. 24 also mentions the signs in the skys and tells us that Jesus returns at the last trumpet. No man knows the day or hour; but we can discern the season. It seems that his return is very near. Most of prophesy has been fulfilled. We need to be ready today for he will come when those sleeping least expect it.
One more thought on the 1,000 year time. How can Christ’s kingdom be limited to 1,000 years or be on earth?
Luke 1:32-33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
The Jews of Jesus day rejected him because they thought he was come to set up an earthly kingdom. Why do so many today continue to teach an earthly kingdom when Christ explained his kingdom is not of this world? We are to look for the new earth and new heavens, the place that Jesus is preparing for us; not another earthly kingdom. I hope this has given you something to consider.
Faith .
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
If I understand your post above you are suggesting that Satan is bound (as in Rev.20) right now. As support for this idea you cite limitations or boundaries that God has always placed upon Satan. i.e. God allowed Satan to go so far in afflicting Job, but no further.
But there is a massive difference between having boundaries on one's actions (i.e. speed limits on highways) and having one's liberty of movement or travel removed by being imprisoned!!
When Satan is bound for a thousand years, he is bound (confined to a restricted place) in the abyss. He will also be unable to engage in his favourite activity (deception of the nations). But when the thousand years are finished his CONFINEMENT and his INABILITY TO DECEIVE THE NATIONS will both cease for a time.
It is these two conditions that will be true during the thousand years. Can you honestly say that you believe that Satan is PRESENTLY confined in his movements and unable to deceive the nations???
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Yes, I have to agree with Bruce here. If Satan is bound and cannot deceive the nations then one of two things has to be going on.
1) No one is deceived, they all know pure truth a) Perfect unity w/o denoms b) No Sin, no roaring lion
2) There is no one to deceive. a) Saints are in heaven with Christ for the 1000 years b) wicked dead on earth and live not again until after 1000 years
Thus, Satan is bound by circumstances. His "hands are tied." His hands will be loosed when the wicked are resurrected after the 1000 years.
I agree that satan is restricted to a certain place, as Bruce said, and that his hands are tied, as Jeff said. What we must understand is where is Satan captive and what is he limited in doing. Scripture says he is bound so he can’t deceive the nations. He was cast down from heaven. Thus, he can’t work in heaven, only on earth and he can’t deceive the nations.
Rev. 12:7-17 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. [10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
** After Christ was born the devil was cast out of heaven and cast into the earth. Notice he had been deceiving the whole world already since Adam and Eve.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
**The church over came the devil by the blood of Christ and by the word of their testimony.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. [13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
** We are warned that the devil has come down to the earth and has great wrath and he persecutes the church. This is after Christ was born and continues right up until Christ returns.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
***The church was kept safe for a period of time, times and half time. Then the dragon went to make war with her. Remember he has been persecuting her but she has been helped up to now. Here he makes war.
Rev. 20:1-3 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
**I believe Rev. 20 speaks of the same time period as Rev. 12. We see the Satan bound and cast into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years. Nothing is said about him being prevented from persecuting the church during this time, only that he can’t deceive the nations or specifically the Gentiles, non-Jewish peoples. During the time the gospel goes out to the nations, obviously they are not all going to come to Christ; but they do hear the gospel. Scriptures plainly state that they are without excuse. God makes himself known to the nations during this time period know as the time of the Gentiles or the church age.
Just where is Satan cast? Is he in a fire and brimstone pit of hell? Why must it be a literal fire pit since the beast that comes out of it is not a literal beast? Does the smoke have to be literal? He is said to be in a bottomless pit. He is also said to be cast down to earth during this same time period between the first and second advent. (REV. 12) Let’s look at the bottomless pit. According to the actual words it is a bottomless pit of immeasurable depth. However, is it literal? Since Satan was also said to be cast down to the earth, where is he during the time between Christ’s two comings?
Bottomless: from online Greek lexicon: Strong’s number 12 Abussos: bottomless, unbounded, the abyss a. the pit, b. the immeasurable depth c. of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and the abode of demons.
Pit : Strong’s #5421 frevar: 1. a well, 2. the pit of the abyss (because the nether world is thought to increase in size the further it extends from the surface of the earth and so resemble a cistern, the orifice of which is narrow)
** Notice a star fell from heaven to the earth and he was given the key to the pit and smoke came out and darkened the sun and air. Remember this is a spiritual book about spiritual warfare. Thus, is the smoke literally darkening the sun? He also lets out locus to torment the men who don’t have the seal of God.
Rev. 9:1-2 (KJV) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. [2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev. 9:11 (KJV) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
**Abaddon is the name of the angel or king over those in the bottomless pit.
Abaddon #3, destruction, ruin, destruction, the place of destruction, the name of the angel-prince of the infernal regions, the minister of death and the author of havoc on the earth.
Apolluon, #623, destroyer, the angel of the bottomless pit, the Destroyer ***Appollyon is also his name. Both names mean destruction, ruin the destroyer,the minister of death. Thus, they are speaking of Satan. It is Satan that had the power of death. Hebrews 2:14 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
***Notice in Isa. 14 Lucifer fell from heaven to the ground which is Strong’s 776 meaning earth, land, etc. So we see in Rev. 12 and in Isa. 14 that Satan fell from heaven to the earth.
John 12:31-33 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.[32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. [33] This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Satan is also called the prince of the world and prince of the air. Jesus spoke of the time coming when he would be crucified. He spoke of it as the time of judgment of the world, the time when the prince of the world would be cast out and also the time when he would draw men to him, the time of salvation. This confirms Rev. 12 and Isa. 14.
***We know that Satan is called the god of the world.(2 Cor.4:4) This angel, Appollyon, is the king over the locusts that hurt the unbelievers. Is this a physical hurt or a spiritual hurt? One interesting theory I just heard was that the locusts represent false teachers, spiritually leading men to their doom.
John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
**Jesus warned us we would continue to have tribulation as long as we lived in the world but not to worry because he had overcome the world. He defeated Satan eventhough we could still feel and see the trials and tribulations of the rule of Satan. Satan’s rule was overcome by Christ. Satan was cast down to the earth, he no longer had any power or rule in heaven where our King Jesus rules. Nor does he have power to rule in believers hearts. He is bound from preventing the nations from hearing the gospel (deceiving them) for hell shall not prevail against the church and God’s word is not bound. Remember he is not bound from doing evil on the earth, just from preventing the gospel from going out and from spiritually harming the believers. Remember no principalities can separate us from God.
1 John 2:13-14 (KJV) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. [14] I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1 John 4:4 (KJV) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
**We experience trials and persecutions in our physical bodies; but we have “overcome the wicked one” just as our Lord exhorts us. And please notice where the devil is. He is in the world! He was cast down to the earth until the final little season when he gathers the nations by deception to fight the final battle, Armageddon.
Rev. 11:7 (KJV) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
***It is not until the church finishes its testimony that the beast will make war them and overcome them and kill them. Thus, this is the final battle. However, the beast had already ascendeth out of the bottomless pit for the beast was, is not and shall. The beast persecutes the church during the entire time of the gentiles but finally gathers together with all unbelievers to fight during Armageddon.
Rev. 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
**We see in Rev. 17 that the people on the earth wonder at this beast through out time (was, is not, and is).
Rev. 20:1-3 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev. 20:7-8 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
**Now we see the time which Satan goes out to deceive the nations is the same as his “little season” and the purpose of it is not only to deceive but to “gather them together to battle”. This is referring to the final battle of Armageddon. Thus, the deception of Satan is to deceive the nations that they can actually defeat God and his church. This deception leads to the nations, Satan, the beast, false prophet, and Babylon all being destroyed in the lake of fire.
**This event happens at the end of all things as we know them and the beginning of the new heavens and earth. This is when there is no more time. This is when we, saints begin eternity as the new Jerusalem.
Rev. 13:1-5 (KJV) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. [2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. [3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? [5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
**The beast rises up out of the sea. The beast and the dragon also come out of the bottomless pit. Satan was also cast to the earth and to the pit. Are all these places the same? I think so.
James 1:6 (KJV) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jude 1:13 (KJV) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
**The above show us two examples of the sea likened to people.
Rev. 17:1 (KJV) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev. 17:15 (KJV) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
**Rev. 17 pictures the whore sitting on many waters and explains the many waters are the multitudes of peoples and nations and tongues. Thus, is the sea representing the vast multitude of unbelieving peoples of the earth or the world? The beast governments come from this large pool of people led or given power by Satan who is the prince of the world, who is cast down from heaven and bound from preventing the spiritual church of God from growing and spreading the gospel to those who will believe.
I believe Satan is bound right here on the earth. His boundaries are set here. Remember, he was once a high level angel in the heavenlies. That would explain how he gives power to the governments (beasts) and how he walks about seeking whom he may devour. He isn’t bound from doing evil in the world but from destroying God’s word, his church and his everlasting kingdom.
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P.S. I would like to add a bit more to my previous post in answer to both of you. . I think it is very important to notice what Jesus said about the time of his death and what would be accomplished.
John 12:23-33 (KJV) And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. [25] He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. [26] If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. [27] Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. [28] Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. [29] The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. [30] Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. [31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. [32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. [33] This he said, signifying what death he should die.
**What did Christ accomplish at his death? When explaining he must soon die, he said now was the judgment of the world and that Satan would be cast out now. Christ’s death was victory over death. He defeated Satan at the cross. He gave his followers power over the enemy. Nothing can hurt us. (spiritually)
Funny how most tend to think Satan couldn’t be bound now because of all the evil in the world today. However, those same people will agree that Christ defeated Satan at the cross. Thus, how is it a defeated foe roars like a lion? It is the same principle. Satan is defeated and boundaries set upon him; but he hasn’t been destroyed in the lake of fire yet.
Luke 10:18-20 (KJV) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. [19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. [20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
**We have victory through Christ.
1 Cor. 15:57 (KJV) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:4 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
**The gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the church. Christ had the keys of heaven and gave them to Peter that the church would have power to bind and loosen.
Matthew 16:18-19 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
**Satan was only bound to keep him from deceiving the nations. The Lord called Saul who became Paul to “open” the eyes of the Gentiles and turn them “from the power of satan unto God.” Until this time the Gentiles as a group had been deceived by Satan. Now the gospel would go to them to the ends of the earth and nothing or no one could stop the spread of the gospel. When the church was in dire persecution, it grew even more. Hell could not prevail!
Acts 26:14-18 (KJV) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. [16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; [17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, [18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Romans 8:35-39 (KJV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Conquer : from NT greek lexicon, strong # 3528 nikao, to conquer, to carry of the victory, come off victorious, of Christ victorious over all his foes, of christains, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power fo their foes, and temptations and persecutions. When one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one’s cause.
Rev. 6:2 (KJV) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Christ has already won the war. He defeated Satan at the cross.
-------------------- 1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Satan is certainly constrained! He certainly is defeated! I don't think anyone will contest what you have stated in your last post unless you attempt to assert that this period when Satan is constrained is the 1000 year period where Satan is locked up so that he CAN NOT deceive the Nations. I don't think any of your beautiful scriptures affirms your position in that respect. Everything else you stated is, however, true at this time.
However, it may be that we should take a closer look at the judgment that occurred at the cross. Take a quick peek with me at the judgment of God in progress.
The Judgment of the Cross At least two things respecting judgment were happening at the cross.
Satan was judged as deserving of death. But notice that Satan was not then destroyed even though he was judged. How was Satan judged? The universe and all the holy angels attended the trial of Satan at the cross of Christ. The one who had once been held in admiration of holy angels and who served at the side of God was finally removed from the affections of every created being. The last chord that may have bound their hearts in sympathy with his cause were now severed. Finally, they could see the justice of God when the time would come to destroy this evil angel. It was not until they went through that experience that holy beings could comprehend the final results of transgression of God's law. The rebellion against God carried out in heaven was more zealously carried out on earth. At the cross, Satan's true character, his true motive, the results of selfish service, were perfectly laid open for the entire universe to witness. What a lesson for those who remained loyal to God. Never would they have conceived in their pure minds that Lucifer's insidious accusations against God, which were portrayed by him as having the objective to restore liberty to holy beings whom had been placed under the yoke of Christ's law, would have led to this conclusion. So it was that Satan was finally cast down in every way from heaven. No more sympathy remained for his cause, no more pity for his plight. But until that time there were doubts among the angels that perhaps God had been too severe with this once holy angel. "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
The world was judged as needing a Savior. Jesus said that he did not come to condemn the world but to save it. "Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." Thus, the cross was not the time when people were judged--though some sealed their fate. Jesus said that there is one that will judge us in the last day, even his words. "Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." So we can see that although the terms of the judgment were sealed at the cross, the actual judgment did not take place at that time. That will happen in the last day.
Another way in which mankind was judged at the cross, actually happens at the resurrection. At least I believe it is the resurrection which seals this judgment. That judgment is this. Jesus came in the likeness of our sinful flesh. He did not sin. He overcame in all areas to become the second Adam of mankind. By this he brought in righteousness where sin was brought in by the 1st Adam. Because Jesus overcame in our flesh by total reliance upon His Father for strength. His own divinity was veiled in his humanity. He did not use it but cried out to his Father. So, by his sinless life we may overcome in the same manner as he did. If we fail, there will be no excuse because God's grace is not deficient to save us. It is boundless. Thus, we will have no excuse. That has been removed because Christ was in all ways tempted as we are tempted and yet he did not resist to temptation. His righteous life will therefore judge us in the last day. Why? Because he offers his life to us. We may be partakes of the divine nature through the exceedingly precious promises of God to those who believe.
The Judgment for Reward When Christ returns to claim his own he brings with him each man's reward. So he has already determined what each of our rewards will be according as our works have been, whether evil or good. This judgment preceeding his second coming is the anti-typical day of atonement which the Jews observed in their ceremonial system which God instituted in the likeness of the heavenlies where he now ministers as our High Priest. Some scholars believe this judgment is happening now. They base their belief on the prophecies of Daniel describing the cleansing of the sanctuary as was the purpose of the earthly ceremony, and the pronouncement of the 1st angel in Revelation who proclaims the everylasting gospel in these words: "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." If this were the very last day, the day of his coming, then the gospel message would make to sense because it calls men to worship the creator with words very similar to the Sabbath commandment. So in this proclamation there is a call for people to return to the Sabbath memorial of the 7th day as a time to worship thier Creator. This call to return to the Sabbath memorial coincides with the pronouncment that the final day of judgment has come. It is a call to repentance for transgression of God's holy law and a time of restoration of the Sabbath commandment as a memorial for man to remember the rest that God has set aside for us since the foundation of the world.
The prophecy in Daniel is found in chapter 8: "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." There is given a specific interval of time that must transpire before the cleansing of the sanctuary begins. This is a study unto itself but is explained in more detail in chapter 9, where the angel gives Daniel enough information for him to see that this 2300 day period extends beyond the Messiah and the cross. It is very specific if you carefully consider both together. Perhaps God will provide us opportunity to discuss this subject on this bulletin board.
The Judgment, Great White Throne To my mind, and in consideration that everyone has already been judged (see above), this portion of the judgment surely must be the sentencing phase were the wicked receive their reward--the lake of fire. The righteous have already received their reward being resurrected to eternal life and a home with Jesus for ever and have had 1000 years to participate in the judgment process. But it still remains for the wicked to receive their final repose. The language used aptly describes the execution of a court sentencing.
The records that the saints review in their participatory act of judgment must surely be the record of the wicked because the records of the saints would all be wiped clean with the blood of Jesus. So this 1000 year period is spent reviewing the books of heaven and the records of the sins of evil men. Then, after this 1000 years, the rest of the dead, that is, those who did not come forth when Christ descended with a trump and a shout, will live again. They are resurrected, not to share in eternal life, not to judge the saints, but to receive their reward.
In summary, we hold a lot of beliefs in common. I believe this is because you and I did not learn our theology from pastors or schools. We learned it the hard way--self study of scripture with earnest prayer and desire to know. There is another man that has also learned his theology in like manner. He spent time living in a cave and happened upon a Bible that someone had left in that cave--maybe the Gideons. The Richest Caveman. The title of pastor was confered upon him without formal schooling, is my understanding. But, it is good for us to come together to discuss because two together can walk a straighter line than one alone. Our reasoning together helps to affirm of beliefs or correct minor deviations in our own thinking. Hopefully, both of us are benefitting; you, as well as I admit I am.
Think about what I said above for a while before you comment, okay? They say you have to read something six times before it sinks in.
Did you read both of the posts? I realized when you click today’s active threads, it only shows the most current post. That’s how I missed one of yours the other day.
quote:So this 1000 year period is spent reviewing the books of heaven and the records of the sins of evil men. Then, after this 1000 years, the rest of the dead, that is, those who did not come forth when Christ descended with a trump and a shout, will live again.
**What scriptures explain it takes 1,000 years to review the records of evil men? You have yet to provide these.
**I have a hard time believing we will sit around reviewing the sins of evil men for 1,000 years when we are told to think on true, honest, just, pure, lovely things of good report, virtuous and praise worthy. Also it is a shame “to speak of those things”, the sins of men done in secret.
Philip. 4:8 (KJV) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Ephes. 5:12 (KJV) For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
**In light of where the saints are taken and what happens, how can we think of our old friends, neighbors and relatives and the bad deeds they have done? Wouldn’t we cry when we realized we must pass a judgment of hell on someone?
Rev. 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev. 21:4 (KJV) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
**Notice immediately at Christ’s return, the church is awake, then comes the end when the church is delivered up and all authority and power is put down. There is no time between. 1 Cor. 15:23-25 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
**Of most importance is the fact that Christ was reigning until he put the enemies down at his return. Thus, he was already reigning!
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
**That means we are reigning too. Else what does this passage mean? An why would we be called to occupy til he returns?
Eph. 2: 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Luke 19:13 (KJV) And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
**Needless to say you still have not answered my previous question on one of the threads of how you get a 1,000 year gap in between the two rewards that scripture makes plain happen simultaneously at the return of Christ?
John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev. 22:12 (KJV) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
quote: Satan is certainly constrained! I don't think anyone will contest what you have stated here unless you attempt to assert that this period when Satan is constrained is the 1000 year period where Satan is locked up so that he CAN NOT deceive the Nations.
I certainly did assert that the 1,000 year period is now. Satan is bound now, we reign now. Please re-read 6 times! per your advice. Be sure to read the 1st answer addressed to you and Bruce at 8:22 on Feb. 28,05. The second (P.S. at 8:46)was only extra verses I thought of later.
At the cross, Satan was cast down to earth. He lost his heavenly position. He was bound from deceiving the nations. The nations deceive themselves!
Rev. 12:9 (KJV) And the great dragon wascast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev. 12:10 (KJV)
**Notice Rev. 12:9 states satan was cast out, which deceiveth the whole world. See he is cast out after he had been deceiving the world.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev. 12:13 (KJV) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev. 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
**Can’t you see in Rev. 12:9 satan was cast out after deceiving the world and in Rev. 20:3 he was also cast out after deceiving the nations as it said he should deceive no more? And Isa. 14:12 also shows he fell after weakening the nations.
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
**Has he fallen? Has he been cast down to the earth? Is it so hard to see “cast to the pit “is the same? Rev. is very symbolic and very little is actually literal.
**The nations deceive themselves.
Romans 1:18-23 (KJV) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
**In Cor. We see men deceive themselves.
1 Cor. 3:18-19 (KJV) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. [19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
**Paul was addressing the pagans in Athens. We see that God winked at their ignorance before but now commanded all men everywhere to repent. Men are no longer to be in ignorance or deceived.
Acts 17:29-31 (KJV) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. [30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: [31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
**In light of John 12, How can satan, who was cast down by Christ, be deceiving the world, if Jesus is drawing all men to him? How can Jesus draw all men if they are deceived?
John 12: [31] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. [32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
**Can you find one passage that states that Satan deceives us now? Not those I gave showing he did in the past. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We are warned of false teachers who will deceive if we let them. Satan is pictured as a lion who devours but no mention of deception there. If you continue reading Romans 1 you see the wicked aren’t deceived but actually take pleasure in doing evil.
BTW, Do you see the 1,000 years as a time when the earth is desolate, the church is up in heaven judging and the wicked awake after the 1,000 years to be cast into hell? Just wondering?
Finally... here are some of your answers. I am sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. I will quote your questions and then give a brief reply. If you need a particular reply in more detail please let me know.
quote:**What scriptures explain it takes 1,000 years to review the records of evil men? You have yet to provide these.
Ans: That would be Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: ...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." We will review the sentence that God has pronounce upon each person and when we agree with the Lord's decision--seeing his judgment is in righteousness--we will execute the judgment written. Ps 149:9 "To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."
quote:**I have a hard time believing we will sit around reviewing the sins of evil men for 1,000 years when we are told to think on true, honest, just, pure, lovely things of good report, virtuous and praise worthy. Also it is a shame “to speak of those things”, the sins of men done in secret.
Ans: Yes, Jesus told us that we would even judge angels. This would be the fallen angels that we will judge. What could be more horrific than reading about the sins of these fallen angels? Our part in the judgment will be to review the mercy and justice of God in his judgments of the wicked. There is no more nobel thought than this--the mercy and justice of God. This it the whole theme of the cross! There we see both the mercy of God in the sacrifice of Jesus, and the justice in the death of Jesus for our transgressions of God's law.
God is concerned that we see his mercy and justice and with our own intelligence and free will cry out "just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." Thus, it is necessary that we even judge our Lord in his judgment of the wicked as these following verses suggest.
quote:Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Ps 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear [or, cleared, justified] when thou judgest.
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
The thought here is that everyone will admit that God is right and fair and just and pure in his judgments. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus."
I just want to add here a link to a sermon by Charles Spurgeon in which he comments, regarding Psalm 51:4, "'Lord, if thou dost damn me, I cannot murmur; if thou dost cast me into perdition, I cannot complain; but have mercy upon me, a sinner, for Jesus Christ's sake.' In that case, you see, God is justified when he condemns, and he is clear when he judges, even clearer than any earthly judge can be, because it is seldom that such a confession as that is ever made before the bar." Unimpeachable JusticeDelivered on Sabbath Morning, June 15, 1856, by the REV. C.H. SPURGEON At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.
quote:**In light of where the saints are taken and what happens, how can we think of our old friends, neighbors and relatives and the bad deeds they have done? Wouldn’t we cry when we realized we must pass a judgment of hell on someone?
Ans: Yes, how true!! And, this is the reason we review the records to see the opportunities they rejected. It is only then that we will see that God is justified in punishing them. When we comprehend the lengths to which he went to save them and they still refused, only then will we accept their punishment as just. Only then can we come to closure and not weep any longer over them. Our love of Jesus will prove greater and our sympathy for evil will disappear. Thus, we need this 1000 years to review, cry and mourn, and heal. It is because of this healing time that there are no more tears after the 1000 years when the earth is made new.
If God does not allow us to review his judgments, then it may not be settled forever in our minds that our friends or family were given a fair trial. To our view, they may have lived holy lives. But only God sees the heart. This will be revealed to us in the judgment. But if God fails to show us his justice and we continue to doubt, then God has not fully destroyed the influence of rebellion. He will not have succeeded in removing the seed of sympathy for wickedness and thus, not everything will have been put in subjection to him. Does this make sense?
Well, this is probably enough to bite off at this time. You raised a lot of objections but if I address them all in this post then we will muddy the waters. What do you think of what I have presented so far?
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[If you missed it, my post above has been edited. Please see the additions.]
I would like to make one additional point.
There is a passage in Peter which says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The context of that statement is the day of God's judgment for Peter says just a verse later that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night [or, unexpectedly--when we are not looking for it].
Now, I cannot say for sure that I fully understand Peter's statement but there is more convincing evidence to support that the 1000 years we spend sitting on thrones and judging the wicked will be that day of the Lord than there is to suggest that the 1000 years may stretch to 2000 years or more so as to become some undeterminent period of time.
Plus, in another topic on this forum I explained how the earth is about 6000 years old. And, how God promised that the earth would enjoy her sabbaths when it lay desolate because it had no rest when the evil was present. If a day with the Lord is as a thousand years then the millennium would be that 1000 year sabbath of rest when the wicked are dead, Satan is bound with no one to deceive, and the Saints are in heaven going over the books. This theory is consistent with the idea that God gave Israel rest every 7th day, the land rest every 7th year. It all revolves around sevens.
With this in mind, the sabbath, or day of the Lord, is due or overdue. So why the apparent delay? Peter also explains this delay when he writes that scoffer will come in the last day asking, "Where is the promise of his coming?" But his response to that question is that "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
So there is clearer evidence to support a one thousand year period of judgment 2000 years after the cross than there is to support that that period began at the cross.
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[In case you did not notice. I have posted three time since your last post. You may wish to go back and read them in order. I am attempting to answer you questions as time permits and as the spirit moves.]
Sorry, but one more point, please?
Something very beautiful about the 1000 year period being the Sabbath of the Earth. God has promised man a rest. He has also promised the earth rest. Paul says that the whole of creation mourns with us waiting for deliverance. Now we know that God cares more for us than sparrows, so logically, he must care more for us than the earth because it isn't alive as we and the birds are. But the fact that God has promised this rest to the earth and will keep his promise to the earth, must surely strengthen our faith that God will also deliver on his promise to give us our rest. So, as Paul states in Hebrews, there remains a 'keeping of the sabbath' [margin], or rest, for the people of God. And only those who believe will enter into that rest. Moses did not give the Israelites that rest. Neither did Joshua. So, the rest remains today for us. And, the fact that the invitation to enter into God's rest is extended even now demonstrates that the rest remains.
quote:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word…: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being…: or, because they were not united by faith to} 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was} 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua} 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath} 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."
(BTW - The weekly 7th day Sabbath rest is, for me, a memorial of the rest that God created for man at the end of creation week when he blessed the 7th day and sanctified it for that purpose. I celebrate the Sabbath each week knowing that it is a sign, like the rainbow, that God has promised we may enter into his rest. Plus, it is a time, a 24 hour period, when I can lay aside every worry and care and cease from all my labors and labor to enter into God's rest by resting in his promise, contemplating his promise, and allowing God to work in me. I must be still so I can hear God's still small voice and I must be resting from my labor to allow God to work. While Jesus is the focus of the rest, the Sabbath is a sanctuary in time that provides the physical reality of the spiritual truth of the rest we find only in Jesus. It is much the same with baptism which is a physical reality that God uses to help us comprehend the spiritual truth of death and resurrection into a new life. And also with the Lord's supper where we receive physical realities, such as the bread and wine, to represent the spiritual truth of receiving Christ's broken body and spilt blood as atonement for our sins. There are many blessings in the Sabbath day for me, aside from mere physical rest. There are many spiritual benefits. While we may surely worship God any day of the week, and many have chosen Sunday in celebration of the resurrection, and at any time, I believe that God has set aside the Sabbath day as a "house of prayer for all people" because all men have 24 hours that day--none are cheated with fewer minutes--and even in dungeons we cannot be excluded from participating in the rest of the Sabbath. We do not need to travel to Jerusalem to worship, because we may now worship in the spirit.)
quote:**What scriptures explain it takes 1,000 years to review the records of evil men? You have yet to provide these.
Jeff’s
quote: Ans: That would be Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: ...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." We will review the sentence that God has pronounce upon each person and when we agree with the Lord's decision--seeing his judgment is in righteousness--we will execute the judgment written. Ps 149:9 "To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."
Rev. 20 is not that simple. That one verse doesn’t prove it is a literal 1,000 years nor does that verse imply when the time period is without looking at other variables like who the saints are that don’t die the second death(all saints fit that description.), when the rest rise, & when satan is loosed..
Ps. 149 speaks of executing judgment and to execute vengeance in verse 8. It does not tell how long this time of executing vengeance is to last. It doesn’t explain Rev. 20:4; but rather explains what happens in Rev. 20: 11-15. The execution of final judgment (wrath, vengeance) occurs after Satan is loosed and after he deceives the nations to war against God, thus after the 1,000 years mentioned in verse 4.
Another problem I see is Ps. 149 speaks of us executing vengeance. However, the Lord says in Romans 12:19 (KJV) “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. “ How is that to be explained?
Jeff:
quote: Jesus told us that we would even judge angels.
Scripture did say we would judge angels. However, scripture doesn’t show the final judgment to be of a certain length of time; but rather occurring in the twinkling of an eye when all get their rewards. I posted a thread about judgment under Lord’s Day/ Tribulation and Rapture explaining how I see our judgment and that of the world being carried out now. I have also addressed what happens at the last day on a post about the last trumpet.
John 12:31 (KJV) Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
*******Please explain how John 12:31 & 1 Peter 4:17 fit into your scenario. ********
Jeff
quote: Thus, we need this 1000 years to review, cry and mourn, and heal. It is because of this healing time that there are no more tears after the 1000 years when the earth is made new.
I don’t see a 1,000 year time of reviewing, crying, mourning or healing mentioned in scriptures. I do see the wicked mourn over Babylon and cry to be hid when they see the Lord coming for they know their doom is near.
We see those mourning after Babylon falls in Rev. 18:8 (KJV) “ Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” Rev. 18:11 (KJV) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
We see the great men hiding from the Lord and his wrath.
Rev. 6:15-16 (KJV) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
I see no time of mourning for the saints after the Lord comes for them. But they receive their glorious hope of eternal life with him. I see no mention of them mourning and healing.
Luke 21:28 (KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
John 14:1-3 (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev. 7:14-17 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev. 21:3-4 (KJV) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Jeff:
quote: The thought here is that everyone will admit that God is right and fair and just and pure in his judgments. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus."
I have to disagree, we never see the wicked repenting or admitting they were wrong. We see the wicked blaspheme God right up to the end.
Rev. 9:20 (KJV) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev. 16:9 (KJV) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev. 16:11 (KJV) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
You took the passage (Rev. 16:5) out of context by leaving off the first part. Notice who said that God was righteous, it wasn’t all men, especially not the wicked men.
Rev. 16:5-7 (KJV) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. [6] For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [7] And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Jeff:
quote: Ans: Yes, how true!! And, this is the reason we review the records to see the opportunities they rejected. It is only then that we will see that God is justified in punishing them. When we comprehend the lengths to which he went to save them and they still refused, only then will we accept their punishment as just. Only then can we come to closure and not weep any longer over them. Our love of Jesus will prove greater and our sympathy for evil will disappear. Thus, we need this 1000 years to review, cry and mourn, and heal. It is because of this healing time that there are no more tears after the 1000 years when the earth is made new.
We are to have our eyes on things above now. We are to come out of the world now. We can know now that most have rejected Christ. We can now pray, weep, and fast for those we know are lost. We can know now that they should repent. We can know by God’s word that he has made himself know to mankind and they have no excuse for rejecting him. Thus, we can know now that his judgment is fair. Our glorious hope is for him to return and take us completely out of this wicked world and into the new heaven and earth where there is no wickedness.
quote: If God does not allow us to review his judgments, then it may not be settled forever in our minds that our friends or family were given a fair trial.
If we think God wasn’t fair to our loved ones, we need to remember who God is. We need to stop thinking of ourselves and our earthly entanglements. We need to keep our eyes on things above and be glad that all the old will pass away. We won’t remember those we know who rejected Christ. I think you have some issues that you need to work out with the Lord. You can’t see the hearts of men; but the Lord can. You need to stop second guessing the Lord.
quote: There is a passage in Peter which says that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The context of that statement is the day of God's judgment for Peter says just a verse later that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night [or, unexpectedly--when we are not looking for it].
Please explain how these passages about the return of Christ and judgment occur in one hour could fit your scenario.
John 5:27-28 (KJV) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Rev. 14:6-7 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
I must add that the passages about now being the judgment of the world and the house of God do not mention a specific amount of time but rather a continuous time from when the words were spoken to the present and continuing as long as there is time as we know it. (until the second return of Christ)
BTW, the 7,000 year theory comes from dispensationalism.
As for the Sabbath rest of the earth, scripture speaks of a kingdom that never ends, not one that last 1,000 years. When Christ returns the earth is destroyed and we are taken to the new earth, the place where Christ is now preparing our new home.
2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
John 14:2-3 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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