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R C Cafe » Lord's Day » Tribulation and Rapture » beheaded: another piece of the puzzle.
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Author beheaded: another piece of the puzzle.

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In studying the 1,000 year period in Rev. 20, I kept wondering how beheaded saints fit into the picture. I understand these to be those who have died to self and been resurrected to the new life with Christ, who now are priests with him. I know that all saints who have physically died for Christ were not beheaded; but died in various ways; nor have all saints actually suffered martyrdom.

I looked up the word beheaded in the Strong's.

3990 pelekizo (mean an ax) to chop off (the head) behead.

That seemed pretty clear; but it didn't fit. A few days later I saw a web discussion in which a person had looked up beheaded. This man continued to the word pleazo, which pelekizo comes from.

pleazo 4141 (form of 4111) (through the idea of flattening out) to pound, ie. (fig) to inflict with (calamity):-smite, comp. 5180

4111- plasso: to mould, shape or fabricate:-form

5180 tupto : to thump (with a stick or bastinado) but in any case repeated blows. by impl. to punish; fig. to offend (the conscience) beat, smite, strike, wound.

By looking up all other words that pelekizo came from or is complementary to , I began to understand what was being said. These saints , kings and priests who reigned with the Lord after dying to self and living the new spirit filled life (first resurrection) were being persecuted, beaten up, wounded, etc. That fits perfectly. Jesus told us that the world would hate us as it hated him. His disciples lived persecuted lives and died at the hands of angry men. Today, if you speak the truth, you are still persecuted. Usually, in US it is verbal or mental abuse. However, the time may come when we must also suffer physical abuse as the early church and the disciples.

I’ve also come to see that the passage in Rev. 20 didn’t necessarily say that all the saints the passage refers to were actually beheaded. Thus, if we take the first meaning of a literal beheading, we see not all these saints were said to have been beheaded.

Anyone else have any comments on which way this should be understood?

1 Thes. 5:21 (KJV)
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


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I agree this is not a literal beheading, it is a spiritual one!. Remember it is appointed for men once to die and then the judgement Heb 9;27. This spiritual beheading that God calls us to is coming out from todays fallen churches. When we reject the deception, this resurrected Levitical priesthood that exaults itself, refuses to build on Paul's foundations, and actually pulls the believers eyes off of Christ and onto themselves, we spiritually behead ourselves.

This is spelled out in The Tribulation - Past History


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Faith and Glenn,
I've heard some twists before, but I have to admit, this is brand new, "spiritual beheading". Wow.

4Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.(A)

5The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed (happy, [a]to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

Help me to understand how your hypothesis fits into literal easy to understand plain english. "souls" of those beheaded...who refused to pay homange to the beast...nor accepted their mark".....help me see how this works. I mean scripture is so very plain here. These believers are slain during the tribulation period by beheading. These same marytrs are resurrected at Christ second coming at the end of the trib and rule and reign with Him for a thousand years, along with those saints that are alive at His coming. All others will not rise from the dead until the end of the thousand year reign and the final judgment. Sounds plain to me.

Hint. If you get yourself a copy of AntiChrist by Joel Richardson, you'll really begin to understand what is shaping up around us in this very hour. It is amazing how the end times prophecies of the Bible and Islam, ie, the Quarn and Hadiths are so parallel in so many respects.

Of course we know the one that was written first. Problem is that the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam and the Islamic people believe in the Mahdi and their rendition of Jesus who will conquer the world by killing jews and christians. Oh, by the way, the false Christ's favorite method of killing is by....you guessed it, beheading.

I'm not trying to be ugly here. Just help yourself out and get the mentioned book. After you have read that, you will have a much clearer understanding of what the Bible predicts, and what is happening all around the world as I write. God bless you as you do.

In Him,




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Islam, the Bible, and End Time Events
Dear Saints. I’ve been reading an awesome book called “Antichrist, Islam’s Awaited, Messiah” by Joel Richardson published by Pleasant World, A Division of Winepress Publishing. What a phenomenal work. I want to share chapter 18 with you, because it gives Biblical and Islamic parallels of end time events. Let me assure you that each comparison has been carefully researched and documented, using the Holy Bible, the Quran, and Hadiths of Islam. The great cloud of witnesses is staggering. Ready?
Chapter 18
A Summary of Comparisons Between The Islamic and Biblical Narratives of The End Times
So in summary we conclude this section with a final review of the many startling similarities that exist between the biblical narrative of the last days and the Islamic narrative of the same period.
• Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last days.
• Islam: The Mahdi is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last days.

• Bible: The False Prophet is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last days who will support the Antichrist.
• Islam: the Muslim Jesus is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last days to support the Mahdi.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the world.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will have a powerful army that will attempt to control every nation of the earth and dominate the World.

• Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lamb’s clothing.
• Islam: The Muslim Jesus literally comes bearing the name of the one that the world knows as “The Lamb of God: Jesus Christ.” Yet the Muslim Jesus, comes to murder all those who do not submit to Islam.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a new world order.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus establish a New World Order.

• Bible: The antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus institute Islamic law all over the earth.

• Bible: The Antichrist is said to “change the times”.
• Islam: It is quite certain that if the Mahdi established Islam all over the earth, he would discontinue the use of Saturday and Sunday as the weekend or days of rest but rather Friday, the hold day of Islam. Also, he would most certainly eliminate the Gregorian calendar (A.D.), and replace it with Islamic calendar (A.H.) as is used in every Islamic country.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will both be powerful religious leaders who will attempt to institute a universal world religion.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will institute Islam as the only religion in the earth.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will execute anyone who does not submit to their religion.
• Islam: Likewise, the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will execute anyone who does not submit to Islam.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False prophet will specifically use beheading as the primary means of execution for non-conformists.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will use the Islamic practice of beheading for executions.

• Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews as possible.
• Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will kill as many Jews as is possible until only a few are left hiding behind rocks and trees.

• Bible: The Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish Temple as his seat of authority.
• Islam: The Mahdi will establish the Islamic Caliphate from Jerusalem.

• Bible: The False Prophet is said to do many miracles to deceive as many as possible into supporting the Antichrist.
• Islam: The Mahdi himself is said to control the weather and the crops . His face is said to glow. We can also assume that since Jesus is viewed as having been empowered by Allah to work miracles when he was here on earth the first time, he will most likely be expected to continue to do so when he returns.

• Bible: The Antichrist is described as riding on a white horse in the Book of Revelation.
• Islam: The Mahdi is described as riding on a white horse (ironically from the same verse).

• Bible: The Antichrist is said to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years.
• Islam: The Mahdi is said to make a peace treaty through a Jew (specifically a Levite) for exactly seven years.
• Bible: Jesus the Jewish Messiah will return to defend the Jews in Israel from a military attack from a vast coalition of nations led by the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
• Islam: The Dijjal, the Islamic Antichrist will gain a great Jewish following and claim to be Jesus Christ and fight against the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus.

• Bible: The Antichrist spirit specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
• Islam: Islam doctrinally and spiritually specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.

• Bible: The primary warning of Jesus and the Apostle Paul was to warn Christians of the abundance of deceit and deception in the last-days.
• Islam: Islam is perhaps the only religion in the earth that practices deceit as one of its tools to assist its own ascendancy. It actually has a specific doctrine which allows and even calls for deception to be used to achieve its desired end.

• Bible: The specific nations pictured in the Bible as being part of the final empire of the Antichrist are all Islamic nations.
• Islam: All Muslims are commanded to give their allegiance to the Mahdi as the final Caliph and Imam (leader) of Islam.

• Bible: From the Bible and history we learn that the final Antichrist Empire will be a revived version of the empire that succeeds the Roman Empire.
• Islam: the Empire that succeeded the Roman/Byzantine Empire was the Islamic Ottoman Empire.

• Bible: When Antichrist emerges, there will already be some form of system in place that will be poised to receive him as a Savior and to give allegiance to him.
• Islam: Islam is already the second largest religion and will at present growth rates become the largest religion within a few decades. Islam is awaiting the coming of the Mahdi with an increasing measure of anticipation.


      Arizona, USA

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I have been studying prophecy and Revelation for a few years now and my husband has since joined with me and now we talk about it ALL the time. It's amazing what's happening in the world and it seems as if people have blinders on or something!
I take the Bible very literally. I hold to the saying, "Common sense and then if it doesn't make sense look for the deeper meaning."
Joel Rosenburg's book is VERY good and helpful. Another book that might be useful for others to read is "It's The End Of The World As We Know It, But I Feel Fine. How to Stop Worrying And Learn To Love The End Times" by Jim Fletcher.
I don't worry about what's going on, I do what the Bible says, I look up because my redemption draweth nigh! I know Jesus is close...I see it from the "road-signs" He gave us in His Word.
Nothing brings this world back into order out of its chaos except for Christ 2nd coming. There has always been an end to the "story" just like there was a beginning...mmm...Alpha-Omega...He was there in the beginning, He will be there in the end. And after the thousand year reign with Him, then eternity...thus the 8th day...the Jews call it Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah. It helps tremendously, to look at the whole book, you get a broader view.
Anyway, sorry to babble on, but my point is, people who are taking the Word of God literally can't help but proclaim His coming because we can SEE it in the fine details now...(I'm using another's quote) but before we could see "broad" outlines and now, at this current time, peoples pants are on fire because we can see the "fine details."
I love God's Word!



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Amen and God bless you. I'm curious. Are you a "pre-trib rapture person?"



      Arizona, USA

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Yes...I'm thinking you could probably guess, but I am a "pre-trib rapture person." When I began my studying of prophecy...I actually started from a pre-trib view point but as I began to study I had a few stumping points that caused me to have to "try-on" the mid and end view point, but with each of the mid and end view point I kept finding other scriptures that did not support those views and the more I studied scriptures and prophecies I realize that the pieces fall into place and scripture supports a pre-trib rapture. I'm a HUGE analyzer of everything...so it has worked out to be an asset when studying these parts of scripture because I have pretty strong arguments for why I support pre-trib vs. mid and end. But the one convincing factor that I know in my heart is what the Holy Spirit has led me to understand...I know I didn't arrive here to this understanding without His help...although others who may come from a mid or end rapture may say the same thing, I personally can only attest to my own experience. Sometime I can try to express to you how that happened but it would be wordy so I'll save it for now...but one thing I can tell you---I don't consider myself to be "scholarly" by any means...I can't call myself a "Bible or prophecy scholar" but I can tell you that the Lord has given me a burning passion for His Word, unlike anything I've ever had before in my life, (I've been a Christian since I was a little girl) and I KNOW without a doubt that the desire came from Him...I couldn't put the book down if I tried to! And lately, every time I open the Book I find prophecy that looks clearly like it's getting ready to happen. Today as my family met together, my 15 year old said to us..."Hypothetically, what if you're wrong and nothing in the Bible is true?" I said, "Hypothetically, what if we're right and the Bible is truth?" Then I began to tell him about how Daniel knew from reading the book of Jeremiah how long Israel would be in exile and I shared other prophecies that came to pass from the prophets. The later in the day I asked him why he wears clothes...to which he gave me a puzzling look and said because I don't want to be naked...why don't you want to be naked, what's wrong with being naked? It's against the law. Why is it against the law? Because Adam and Eve sinned. But if the Bible isn't true then how can it be that we wear clothes because they sinned? Why don't we all just walk around naked? Why is there a law that says we have to wear clothes. On and on...later I plan to ask him where did the 7 day week come from? Who came up with that? Just trying to get the boy to think and do his "homework." Wow Lahry! You'll never ask me another question again will you?!



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I appreciate all you said. It was something I struggled with a long time as well (rapture, that is). If you like, email me at: lahry4u@yahoo.com. I'll send you what the Lord showed me about all of this, be it we all see through a glass darkly. I hope you don't mind an objective viewpoint. I surely am willing to listen to yours.

I like the question you asked your son. Modern church people tell you we are under grace and not under the law. For justification, amen. But what about for Godly living? I have a similar question, "would it be alright for me to marry my sister?" After they stop flipping and flopping, they realize that the only basis for law is God's law and His law reveals His character and nature.

So I ask, "is it ok to steal"? "No", they reply. "Lie"? "No". "What about keeping the 7th day holy, remember that?" "We're under grace and not under the law!" Ah, ha. Sounds like a traditional sacred cow to me.

Don't get me wrong, I went to two church services this morning. But from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, my wife and I spent our time with God. It's awesome.

Please don't be afraid to voice what God is speaking to you here. There are many good thinkers here and we love to keep it "Bible".

God bless you and your family,




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Well, I'll just go ahead and post it here. David, if you object, let me know and I'll take it down. I am open to objective viewpoints. Just make sure scripture backs you up. [Smile] \o/......

The Myth of the Pre-trip Rapture

By Lahry Sibley

In all of my years as a bible student, if there is one common church doctrine that has troubled me the most, it would have to be the “Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church”. I’ve listened to what seems like an endless litany of arguments, scriptures quoted and so on. I’ve seen this doctrine divide individuals, groups, churches etc., each acquiring a passionate disdain for the other.

For myself, I struggled and prayed, read and listened. But something about the “pre-trib” concept just would not sink into my spirit. It was like a spiritual cotton ball that simply would not pass from my eyes and ears into my heart. I did not know why. I only knew it to be reality in my personal life and walk with the Lord.

Then one day, the revelation light came on and I began to realize what the problem was. I came to the conclusion in scripture that the doctrine of pre-trib rapture simply cannot be supported in God’s Word. Rev. 20:1-6 is what tipped the scale. It was like discovering a diamond or a gold nugget in the dirt while trying to dig up a stubborn old tree stump.

So I wondered how this doctrine came to be. What was its history? How long has it been around?

It is not uncommon knowledge that the most original idea about a pre-trib rapture came from a little noticed book by a Jesuit priest named Manuel Lacunza writing under a Jewish pen name of Ben-Ezra. This book was discovered by a Scotch clergyman named Edward Irving. He translated it into English and then began to write about the teaching in the book. It is not difficult to research when and where all of this led. The early events took place in the 1820’s and 1830’s. I will not offer more detail here for the sake of brevity, considering how long this will be. But one can easily find the same information I found online.

I have observed in my 40+ years as a Bible student and Christian that this pre-trib doctrine has been an anesthesia to zeal for evangelism. It has been a destructive and heinous doctrine that has so duped the multitudes as to stagger the imagination of the Spirit led student of the Scriptures who hungers for the revelation of its truths.

I know that those are strong words. They are meant to be. Genuine love cannot permit otherwise. If I and others like minded are correct, how could anyone possibly think otherwise, considering the impact and influence this one doctrine has had on modern Christianity. It literally dominates pulpit exposition, literature, and music. If there will be no pre-trib rapture, it is difficult to ascertain the harm caused by such a deception as this. (No, I am not a preterist by any stretch of imagination).

I believe that most men of God in this hour, ever how well intended, have accepted as truth what was taught them by their mentors, be the mentors parents, pastors, seminary professors or whoever. It is so easy to accept if you are not spiritually discerning because it has such an impact on the carnal nature of man. No one in their right mind would welcome the experience of events prophesied by John in the Book of Revelation. While virtually everyone would agree with the warning at the end of this book about not changing any wording of the book, most seem to read into to what it says, a concept that cannot be biblically supported by so great a cloud of scriptural witnesses. Let’s consider some of them, shall we?

Pre-Trib Rapture?

By definition, "A sudden removal of all true biblical, Jesus the Messiah, believers in a rapture would certainly be a most spectacular event (sign) to both those departing and those who remain on the earth. The flagship scripture for this entire false doctrine being 1 Thes 4:13-17. I’m amazed that the pre-trib folks complete miss the cry of the archangel and the trumpet blast of God in this passage.

We would expect Jesus to include such an event (sign) in his prophetic answers to the questions about the "end of this age" and "His coming." There would certainly be no point in His disguising or hiding such an important thing since He addressed the subject quite clearly. After all, why would Christians have to know much about the end of time and the "great tribulation" if the church at that time is not going to be on the earth?

Jesus chose specifically to not pray for a rapture.

John 17:15 "I do not pray that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil one.

In the scripture that follows, Jesus explains what will happen quite clearly. He says that one will be taken and the other left. Pre-trib folks say that the one taken is the Christian and the ungodly is left behind. However, these scriptures do not define who is who. So to base opinion on this passage is speculation, and could easily be the other way around.

I think other texts in scripture supports the other way around as we shall see:

Matt 24:40-42 40 - "Then two men will be in the field: one (wicked) will be taken and the other left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one (wicked) will be taken and the other left. 42"Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. (NKJ)

Luke 17:34-37 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one (the wicked) will be taken (destroyed) and the other left. 36 "Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken (destroyed) and the other left." 37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."(NKJ)

Note: the gathering of eagles is also mentioned in Rev. 19. They gather to eat the dead flesh of those who are slain by the Lord Jesus.

2 Pet 2:4-9 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)-- 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,(NKJ)

Note: …that the deliverance in vs 9 is out of temptations, not from the planet earth.

Examples of Jesus saying that the taken ones are devoured -

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." (NKJ)
Note: (eagles = vultures = large bird that lives chiefly on decaying flesh of a dead body)

Now you may be asking, “ok, so when does this all actually occur”. The Bible tells us quite clearly in many places. The following being an example:

Rev 19:17-18 - 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."(NKJ)

Note: this is the flesh of those slain by Christ as His second coming at the end of the tribulation period. This is one and the same occurance as already quoted biblically above.

The taken ones cannot be Christians because they are to be "alive and remain"

1 Thes 4:15-17 15For this we declare to you by the Lord's [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death]. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God.

(Note: He comes not in a mysterious fly-by, but with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with a blast of the trumpet of God. Not exactly a secret event, would not you agree?)

And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

17Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!

Now in 2 Thes 2:1-12, Paul provides these same people with further insight into this incredible event…..

1But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,

(Note: this is the same church to whom Paul is writing and he again referring to the coming of Jesus Christ and the gathering together to meet Him. I cannot see how this is separated from 1 Thes 4:15-17.)

2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here. 3Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),

(Note: Whoa now. The Lords coming cannot take place before the man of lawlessness is revealed? Is this not the “anti-Christ” of the tribulation in the book of Revelation? Dear readers, this is not obscure and vague language here.)

4Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

(Note: Paul says that the Lord is coming after the man of lawlessness or son of perdition. Beloved this simply cannot be pre-trib)

5Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? 6And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until [c]he who restrains is taken out of the way.

(Note: The church is not the restraining factor here, in my humble opinion.)

8And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by His appearing at His coming.

(Note: I cannot see any reference in all of this dialog to two separate events 7 years apart known as “the coming of the Lord, can you?)

9The coming [of the lawless one, the antichrist] is through the activity and working of Satan and will be attended by great power and with all sorts of [pretended] miracles and signs and delusive marvels--[all of them] lying wonders-- 10And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.

(Note: this to me is the apostasy, the great falling away, the anti-christ is manifested and then the Lord returns.)

11Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, 12In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Four Examples of wicked taken 'out' of the earth and destroyed and righteous remain:

Matt 13:24- 30 Parable of wheat and tares. Then the Lord provides the interpretation.

Matt 13:37-43 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, (emphasis mine) and the reapers are the angels. 40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42"and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43"Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!(NKJ) (Please note the word “Then” in vs 43.)
Luke 17:28-30 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.(NKJ)

(Note: When is the Son of Man revealed? My Bible says at the end of the tribulation period.)

Matt 13:47-50 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea ("multitudes of people" Rev 17:15) and gathered some of every kind, 48 "which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."(NKJ)

(Note: Again, at the end of the age)

1Thes 5:2-4 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they(the wicked) say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. (NKJ)

(Note: If we were not going to be "here" this passage makes no sense at all. How could “this day” overtake us if we are not going to be here? Furthermore, what is being talked about here does not come suddenly and unexpected. All of the events of the 7 year tribulation period have to take place before the day of the Lord, His second coming.)

Now, we hear all this dialog about the church not being mentioned after chapter 3 of Revelation. But the Elect (believers) are in the Tribulation because the days must be shortened for them. Just in case you’re not sure, look at the Strong’s definition for the word “elect:

Elect or chosen: 1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

Ok, now, let us see what the Lord says about the “elect”.
Mark 13:19-20 "For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. (also Matt 24:21)(NKJ)

Luke 18:7 "And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? (NKJ)

Col 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering. (NKJ)

Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (NKJ)

(Note: The elect are not Jewish evangelists, as some state, but all believers as evidenced in the verses above.)

Why shorten the Tribulation days for the 'elect' if the believers (the elect) are raptured away before it even takes place? The believers are in the tribulation, that is why it must be shortened for them.

Many people believe that the Bible teaches that Israel signing a peace accord with the Arabs starts the 7 year tribulation period, according to Daniel 9. Read your newspaper. Watch Communist News Network (CNN). Hillary Clinton is like a woman on a mission to accomplish what her husband could not, a peace treaty between the Arabs and Israel. What if this happens and there is no rapture? What will this do to your "faith"? Most who argue for a pre-trib rapture agree there will be a tribulation period like no other as described above by Jesus Himself. Is your faith strong enough to go through it?

Some argue that the church (the word church only) does not appear in Revelation after chapter 3:17, so it must be raptured. Oh? Who, pray tell are the saints and the elect, but the church itself. If the church is raptured, who are all these saints mentioned in Revelation? Please read the verses below and key in on the word "saints".

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

(Note:Will the saints be in prayer if they are already in heaven?)

Rev 8:3 (Same question here)

Rev 11:18

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

(Note: Destroy the saints in heaven?)

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

(Note: Why would saints in heaven need patience and faith and be concerned about the sword of he that killeth? If you know anything at all about Islamic escathology, you know that the Jesus they believe will come back during the tribulation period will have only one mission, to behead with a sword those Christians and jews alive at that time.)

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Now, ask yourself, rather, ask God, where are the saints during the tribulation?

Add the “elect” to the mix.

Finally, let’s fast forward to the end of the Tribulation Period in the Book of Revelation….

Rev 19:11-21
11After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness). 12His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand. 13He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God. 14And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent). 16And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sunlight, and with a mighty voice he shouted (emphasis mine) to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God, 18That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great!
19Then I saw the beast and the rulers and leaders of the earth with their troops mustered to go into battle and make war against Him Who is mounted on the horse and against His troops. 20And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh.

Clearly, this is the end of the Tribulation Period, the end of the beast and the false prophet. The rest are killed and their flesh feed the birds (eagles – covered previously).

Now, lets look at the next 6 verses which are:

Rev 20:1-6: 1Then I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand. 2And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years. 3Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time. 4Then I saw thrones, and sitting on them were those to whom authority to act as judges and to pass sentence was entrusted. Also I saw the souls of those who had been slain with axes [beheaded] for their witnessing to Jesus and [for preaching and testifying] for the Word of God, and who had refused to pay homage to the beast or his statue and had not accepted his mark or permitted it to be stamped on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived again and ruled with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.

Who will be resurrected? Is it not those who were beheaded during the tribulation period? Who else is present? Is it not those who saints who at the end of the tribulation period are present at His second coming? Who will rule and reign with Him at His second coming for a thousand years? Is it not this same group that died during the tribulation and those who were still alive at His second coming? Beloved, that is not difficult language to understand.
What about the rest?

Look at the next verse.

5The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Look at John 5:28,29 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Who is resurrected and when? Is it not the saints and the sinners alike? Is this not just before the Great White Throne Judgment? Is not this the resurrection spoken of in verse 5 above?

So if the pre-trip camp is correct, then who are the righteous who will be raised from the dead in John 5? The “Pre-trib Myth just cannot survive scriptoral scrutiny)

Vs 6 Blessed (happy, to be envied) and holy (spiritually whole, of unimpaired innocence and proved virtue) is the person who takes part (shares) in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but they shall be ministers of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.

Who are these who are beheaded during the tribulation but the saints of God, the Church of Jesus Christ? To read anything else into this book is to add to it. We all know about John’s warning at the end for doing that. Saints, I’m not trying to be “right”. I’m trying to understand what the Word actually says and not what someone says it says.

I believe that there is only one second coming of Christ, and that is clearly shown above as being at the end of the Tribulation Period. He is coming with a shout of an Angel and the voice of a trumpet. Those who are alive will join those who are resurrected (that did not take the mark of the beast and were beheaded during the trib). These will be caught up with Him and rule with Him for a thousand years.

The Word clearly says that the “rest were not restored to life until the end of the thousand year reign”

Now, if there is a first resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation period, how can there be another “first resurrection” at the end of the tribulation period? You simply cannot have it both ways beloved.

Saints, this is the only scenario that to me fits all the prophecy. Even so, God will perform His Word in the most amazing and profound ways. If you have a position of understanding different from above and can prove it with scripture, I’m all for listening. I want to know the truth. The above is the only scenario that has satisfied my soul and brought me peace regarding this issue. Like everyone else, I too see through a glass darkly and I want to know as much light as I can. So if you have more to share on this, I’m very interested in hearing what you have to say. Just bring your argument in scripture and what it says, not what someone says it says.

I realize that the argument presented above puts me at odds with probably 98% of the church world today. So be it. Until I’m corrected with scripture, I’ll stand my ground. This is not a salvation subject, therefore we can agree to disagree. But this subject is so important to the church today because I believe the vast majority of believers today believe in this rapture doctrine that is not more than about 200 years old, that was started, from the best of my knowledge and what I can dig up, by a Jesuit priest writing under a jewish pen name. It appeals to the flesh and so it took hold and was commonly adapted and taught as what scripture says. I cannot find any scriptural evidence that supports pre-trib rapture.

Jesus said in this world we would have much tribulation, but to be of good cheer, for He has overcome the world. Alleluia. Amen and amen. Tribulation is coming saints, like we have never seen before. That is why we are warned and given clear insight into recognizing all the events when they take place…….believe it…..or not.


      Arizona, USA

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OK Lahry,
Here's the deal...you did NOT scare me at all, I have just been busy, (and will continue to be for a while now, since I am starting a new job on Tuesday), but my oldest son graduated and we had and still have family in town and I don't have time to write my VERY lengthy reply. You wrote a lot and I wasn't even able to finish reading it yet because my Mom is still here and I don't want to be rude to her...so I will have to wait. But I am taking the time to copy your info and then I will sit and put together what understanding I have. I don't make any "spiritual" claims about or for anyone else...because I'm not personally looking for a "following." My only purpose for sharing on here is for spiritual encouragement from other believers. But I also hope in my walk with Christ to inspire people to care enough about the Word, to pray and ask God to show His truth in His Word...which I can tell you must also feel the same. Soooo, for my personal edification and growth and working out my personal viewpoint, I will take you on...but you may have to be patient with me and it may take me a while because I may not be as experienced as you are. By the way, I did not arrive at my belief in the pretrib harpazio,(rapture)because of church or evangelist or preachers...the churches that my husband and I have been affiliated with are no where near this message that I know of. In fact, I heard that their last sunday sermon was about the color "Orange"...the church representing the color red and the family representing the color yellow and blending that makes orange. (Don't ask me...I have no idea)!
Talk to you soon!
Love In Him,


      Arizona, USA

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Man! I'm looking over your reply and I printed off 9 pages! Looks like you were lying in wait for someone like me to come along. Well, I guess this is a chance for me to test out my study of the Word. Well, I think I'm up for the challenge. But I will probably email you privately because I'm not sure how all of this works and I don't want to offend anyone and some of what I'm saying might go beyond the boundaries of this forum. I truly believe we need to learn to hear from the Lord and seek Him so that we may find Him...I'm saying that because I don't want to "influence" others to follow me or my way of thinking...I want others to follow Christ. Who knows, (I don't think so), but Lahry may open my eyes to a different point of view...let's see.



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Well amen. It's not about being right, but about being in Him. I appreciate your courage. Who knows, you may teach this old dude some new revelation. I'm always open for that. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

In Him,



      Arizona, USA

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Okay Lahry,
I have spent a bit of time going over what you wrote...some things I have to make a conscientious decision to let roll off my back...like the part in your very first paragraph where you say that you've seen "this doctrine" divide individuals, groups, churches etc., each aquiring a passionate disdain for the other. My point: It seems to me like you are distinquishing someone like me, who believes in a pretribulation, (by saying "this doctrine")as being a cause for division in the body of believers. I can see the example of this just from the reaction I got from "admitting" I believe in a pretribulation point of view, (I believe you called what I believe-detructive and heinous doctrine that has duped multitiudes and staggers the imagination of the Spirit led student of the Scriptures). And yes, those are, in my opinion, VERY harsh words. To me, it would seem that you are, by your own definitions, a wee bit devisive in saying these things of me. The harshest of what you said was the infering that I can't possibly be Spirit-led if I have a pretrib viewpoint and that just isn't true.
I've only read a few things you've testified about here on this forum and from that, I concluded that you must love the Lord. And I respect that more than anything and I promise you, I don't have "passionate disdain" for you!
But I understand the Scripture when it says, "that we all know in part then we shall know fully"(Laura paraphrased since I'm typing and don't want to look up where that's at)...I understand that we may not understand all things until we see Him face to face.
What I can tell you, whole-heartedly, (and why I decided to answer you here), is, that I love the Lord with all of my heart and I fully believe the Word supports a "harpazio" (rapture) teaching. But I realized after I worked through the 5th page of what you wrote, that what I'm doing is futile and exhausting for me because I can see from the content that you've written that you have a strong conviction about this...as I do also, because I had an arguement about nearly every point you made...but who am I doing this for? Not you, because your mind is made up already. Annnd, I gladly concede to there being an abundance of literature out that can give an arguement so much more eloquently than I can...but it sounds like you have "listened to what seems to you like an endless litany of arguments." Soooo, I decided to take myself out of the ring especially since I'm thinking this isn't a salvation issue for you. But I would like to say something about how you feel like that my doctrine, (sure, I'll own it!), has been an "anesthesia to zeal for evangelism." It most certainly has had a complete opposite affect in the life of my husband and I. We try to live temporally, we know our real treasures are in heaven and I believe some of those treasures are the people who hear about Christ and will gain eternal life because of His message. So we ask daily for God to bring people in our path and ask Him to let us intersect the lives of others by giving and serving on a regular basis so that we can share His message, His Word. We are not perfect by any means but we are zealous for our Messiah and His Word. And, by the way, one of the reasons we left traditional church assemblies is because they were NOT teaching about the coming of Christ in any form...pre/mid/end. So maybe that works for some so as to stay away from contention, but it didn't work so well for us. We are all about the complete Word.
Well, my purpose for joining this forum was to gain some encouragement from other believers and learn a bit more about home churches...sort of like a support or something. I never meant to stir up anything and I promise, I did not have an "agenda." So signing off.
God Bless You!


      Arizona, USA

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P.S. Lahry,
I read through all 9 pages and I still stand by my belief in a "pretribulation rapture." And yes, I do believe there are elect and saints during the tribulation...I believe that's what the 144,000 Jews are going to be doing...preaching the Word to the utter ends of the world, (thus people being saved,-"saints"). I believe the Jews were "pregnant" with the message but gave birth to "wind." Is. 26-(The whole chapter is good, read it all). I believe the Word tells us that the gospel was to the Jews first and then the Gentile and the gospel originally was to be given to the world through the Jews...but this is another subject.
And by the way, I have been able to find data of the harpazio in several historical writings dating further back than 200 years. I've read stuff from the 5 Volumns of Heretics by Irenaus and also writings in the Epistle of Barnabus and in the Book of Enoch, (which was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, by the way). And I recognize that these are not "canonized scripture" but I'm just giving support to the "rapture" being much older than 200 years. Irenaus being my favorite because he was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John the Revelator.
I say this, so you know, that I've done my homework and I don't take the Word lightly nor do I try and "make it" say what I want it to say. I SEE it in scripture...I understand it from scripture...I see two different events, one with Him coming in the clouds and one with Him coming with an army at His second coming. And I did have a personal experience that would not be tangible to you if I told you, but it was very tangible to me and I know God was speaking to me and that causes me to stand even more firmly. Those are the things I don't always share because I believe each individual needs to learn to desire Him so much that they began to "seek Him and then they will find Him when they seek Him with all of their hearts" and I don't want someone to believe something based on my experience or knowledge...only what God is faithful to show in scripture and through His Spirit to them.


      Virginia U.S.A.

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I learned something a while back regarding clouds. Take a look.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. --Psalms 68:17 (KJV)

Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: --Psalms 104:3 (KJV)

Just an interesting thought. Angels as cloud-like chariots on which the Lord is carried.

Also, you have something older than 200 years to go by. Harpazio (Harpazo) is in scripture.

"Iniquitas mentita est sibi"


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Thank you for your post. I do appreciate your beliefs and respect your right to them. God bless you real good today.



      Virginia U.S.A.

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The Catholics teach that souls go to Purgatory after death to be purged of sin by suffering for temporal sins satisfying the sufferings which Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross of Calvary did not satisfy. Of course, Protestants loudly protest this teaching as presenting Christ's death as less than efficacious in expiating our sins. Protestants teach that it is not by our works or our suffering, if you will, that our sins are forgiven. (After all, the wages of sin is death, not suffering. And Christ tasted death for every person that we might taste of eternal life through Him.) It is by faith in Christ that we are justified freely--that is, the requirements of the law against us are satisfied by the death of Christ in our behalf such that we stand without guilt before the throne of God. So the Protestant asks, How can any sin be left for us to expiate if Christ paid the price in full? Surely, if the death of the Only Begotten of God did not satisfy the debt owed to the law then how could a mere human's suffering, at any length, satisfy it aside from the death the law requires?

Now I ask. Is the time of tribulation as defined by the pre-trib doctrine a form or Protestant Purgatory? We don't actually believe that suffering has any merit, do we? If the love of God as demonstrated on the cross does not lead men to willingly follow Christ will persecution accomplish that which is lacking in Christ's sufferings? In other words, will God employ the same tactics well-intentioned, but misguided, men have used against their fellow man to force them to accept church dogmas? Can a person be forced to accept Christ through persecution? Does torture change the heart? A man may recant to save himself the pangs of death by fire but does it change his heart? No. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance not to be repented of. Love is eternal but fear will pass away when the threat is removed. However, love endures all things.

So then, will God use tribulation to force men to accept Him much as the church has used torture and threat of death to win converts to their cause? No, God does not use force. God is love. And love demands the free exercise of the will. God cannot accept a forced allegiance. God wants changed hearts not merely behavioral modification. Remember, the Jews failed to obtain the righteousness of God by their efforts to keep the law apart from faith. If it didn't work then it won't work now. Scripture says the just live by faith, not by their works. This doesn't mean that the faithful have no works and therefore no fruits. It means that the works are the fruits of their faith and not that their works produce either faith or righteousness as our Catholic brothers and sisters are inclined to think. God will judge. So a God of love honors our free will and only accepts an allegiance which is born of an intelligent appreciation for His character which genders reciprocal love.

So if the blood of Christ was not able to purge these souls of their sins and bring them to repentance will their own blood, their own suffering, their own tribulation, accomplish that which Christ's sacrifice failed to do? No, No, NO! It may produce a repentance like that of Judas or Pharaoh which only wished to escape the suffering. But it will not produce a godly repentance of which there is no repentance--in other words, it will be a true repentance with a turning away from sin and they will not later say, I didn't mean it. If I know this then God has known it from the beginning and has revealed it to me.

Therefore, if the time of tribulation is not preceded by the rapture of the saints but is for all people, and yet it is not for the purpose of conversion, then what purpose does it serve? I believe it is the harvesting time when the tares are separated from the wheat. It is the time when the quality of our faith is revealed. Those who have built on the shifting sands will be washed away. Those who merely professed to know Christ but in truth did not will be separated from the wheat in that great threshing floor. The chaff will be carried away with the wind leaving only the wheat. Only those who built on the solid Rock, Jesus Christ. It may very well be likened to the purging fires Paul spoke of in 1 Cor. 3 where he speaks of our works being tried by fire. The straw, hay, and stubble will be consumed leaving only the precious metals and gems.

“Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” --1 Cor 3:13-15 (KJV)

This verse doesn't have to mean that the fires purge us of our sins. Christ's blood is for that purpose. It can also mean that the Lord will purge us of vain doctrines leaving only pure truth. He will once again shake all things that those things which cannot be shaken will remain.

So while there is a tribulation it is not for the purpose of converting souls to Christ. That work has already been done by the preaching of the gospel. Now, however, the time has come to separate the tares from the wheat to reveal each persons faith. And this work occurs just before Christ comes to claim His own. This is the harvesting time when the sickle is put to the field.

Does any of this make sense? What is reasonable is that the blood of Christ purges us from sin. What is unreasonable is to think that our own suffering can accomplish something the sufferings of Christ could not. The latter, our suffering, may produce a repentance motivated by a desire to escape the suffering but it cannot produce a godly repentance which comes by comprehending the goodness of God in sending His Only Begotten Son to die in our stead so that we may have His life. To say it another way, personal suffering tends to produce an earnest desire to be freed of the suffering to self. However, the love of God produces an earnest desire to join in the sufferings of Christ to put self to death. They are complete opposites. One achieves God's purpose in our life. The other is vanity. Therefore, I conclude that what is commonly taught regarding the purpose of the tribulation is false in this regard.

Now there may be conversions during the tribulation period but I believe it will be because of the faithful witness of those saints undergoing the persecution. The blood of the martyrs has ever been the seeds of the gospel. But I reject the notion that God will use similar tactics employed by the church to win converts. That is counter-productive and anti-Christ in nature. When Christ's disciples wanted to call down fire upon a city which rejected Jesus, He told them, You don't know what spirit controls you. And, Jesus said that all who live righteously will suffer persecution. The world loves those of the world but it hates those of God's kingdom.

The plagues are for the ungodly and the righteous will be saved out of them. “A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.” Psalms 91:7-8 (KJV). “And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. . . And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.” Rev 16:9-11 (KJV)

But the time of tribulation is for those who claim to be saints. It will separate the tares from the wheat. “For then shall be great tribulation. . . but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” Matt 24:21-22 (KJV) “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Rev 7:14 (KJV). This tribulation can only benefit those who have already accepted Christ. It's will also serve the purpose of God by revealing the worst of men enslaved to sin and demonstrate to the saints, the angels, and all the hosts of the universe that these saints are worthy to be admitted into heaven. Not that they have earned it but rather that the blood of Christ has successfully purged them of all desire to preserve their life. They are willing to give up everything for Christ's sake and thus they prove the endurance of their faith and their loyalty to God. They are willing to serve Him though He slay them. They have overcome the world!

Please let me know if there are points you don't agree with or don't see that I have made my point. I will try to address them. Thank you.

"Iniquitas mentita est sibi"


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Brother Jeff,
You are preaching to the choir now, dear saint. I totally agree with you. I'll email you what the Lord gave me on the pre-trib rapture. That is what Laura was commenting on.
Outside of Israel, I really don't think there will be many saved during the Trib, just because of the things you mentioned. I think those who go into trib without Christ will shake their fist at the Cross and despise Him even more.

It will definitely be the time of seperating tares from the wheat. But who is taken away first? Not the Wheat, but the tares. Then the wheat is harvested.

Of course both tares and wheat will be slaughtered during the trib. But in the end, we will all be caught up with our Master, those who remain. Those who die during the trib for their faith will be resurrected during the first resurrection that comes cleary at the end of the trib, not before. Rev 20:1-6. These will rule and reign with Yahsua for 1000 years. Then the rest will be resurrected, just and unjust for the very last day of earth as we know it. Alleluia. Even so come quickly Lord Jesus.

I appreciate you brother,




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Since all of this was discussed by people I do truly love and respect here, the Lord has futher showed me some things. Or rather, maybe He proposed a question.

The "7 year tribulation" is founded solely upon the prophecy of Daniel regarding the last week of years in his prophecy on the 70 weeks vision.

So the question in my heart is, where oh where does anyone have the authority to incise the 70th week from the other 69? I simply cannot find it. So then I must assume that this incision rests soley upon the presumption of men unlearned who meant well.

I have come to a place where I see what John wrote in Revelation as beginning when the book of Revelation was completed, and continues on to this day.

Countless millions have been pursecuted for their faith and continue to be even as I write this page. A study of world and church history since the time of Christ can produce many convincing foundations for this conclusion.

What does this do to the "pre-trib rapture" teaching, if the tribulation period is not 7 years but 2000 years? I'm all ears here. God bless you abundantly.

Bro. Lahry


      Illinois, Chicago, USA

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Thanks for the challenge Bro. Lahry.
I am of the mind that debating "pre"-"post"-"mid" tribulation be placed on the shelf of non-essentials.
I've seen many people spend much time on trying to figure out exactly where we stand on God's calendar of events that there is hardly any time spent on reaching the lost.
I am all about that blessed hope, and if God sees fit to come now or after I leave this plane of existence is of no consequence to me as long as I live for Him today.

You don't really know how much you believe in something until it becomes a matter of life or death.

      Edmonton, Canada

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Could it be that what you wrote also refers to:

Mt 24, 43-44
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

The blessed hope that you point to, ought to be one of the greatest personal inner indicator of our readiness for the "holy night time visit" of our Lord's return.
When such stregthening hope and readiness lacks, then it indicates the dire nessecity to wake up from the dead so that Christ-Jesus may shine His light within each and amongst us all, as He assembles His church for His return.

...all blessings be with us all...
Benoit Couture


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