posted
The Lord Jesus instituted a supper, the word is literally a "feast" the main meal of the day! It is a family context in which family members participate, it is NOT a ritual which is "administered" by a "clergyman" to "laity", in a physical "sanctuary"!!!
Breaking of bread in scripture is always the dividing of food into portions in preparation for eating! It is mentioned 21 times in scripture. Is that one for every meal of the week??? I believe that it is God's desire that we remember the price the Lord Jesus paid for us EVERY TIME WE EAT A MEAL! "AS OFTEN AS YE EAT THIS BREAD ANND DRINK THIS CUP YE DO SHOW THE LORD'S DEATH UNTIL HE COME."
In our house church gatherings, we eat almost every time we come together and recall to mind the Lord Jesus as we do.
Would welcome other's thoughts, questions challenges on this vital topic! The cup of the Lord is the token of the New Covenant and it is vital that we be recovered to new covenant church practice!
tomlamb
posted
Gidday Bruce! You are onto it Bro! Please read this article I wrote a few years ago if you get time?
The Fallacy
(of the Communion Service)
Give us day by day our daily bread.
Intro:
Having taken part or observed Evangelical communion (Brethren/Baptist), High Church communion, Pentecostal communion, Charismatic communion, Ecumenical communion, and New Age communion (same platitude, but without reference to Jesus) over the years, have I witnessed the same rigmarole or extremes of the cold formal approach, to the emotionally charged ecstasy of "lives touched" and "hearts melted". However, at the end of the day, neither have I ever witnessed lasting fruit or lives changed from these solemn experiences. From the aftermath of these "spiritual" highs and religious gestures, has life continued on just the same, where people may have confessed to an "attitude" to someone, or been radiant for God while on top of Mount "Fuzzy", then neatly slipped back into their carnal everyday pattern of pretence or indifference.
Why ... ?
No, am I not going to mention the Roman Catholic Church at this stage and sandblast t r a n s u b s t a n t i a t i o n (phew, easier to type than say though!), the bread and wine BEING CHANGED to God by priestly magic. But I am going to look at the Protestant version, c o n s u b s t a n t i a t i o n (take note of the first three letters ... con, cause that's what it is) the bread and wine BEING LINKED to God mystically by consecration. Two versions of the same thing. One hard-line the other moderate.
Some may think I'm being a bit too hard here, however, some time back I attended a "Bible Believing" home meeting where about 30 people from various back grounds, both young and elderly were present. During the meeting when the subject of (traditional) "communion" came up I felt it had to be made very clear the bread and wine in scripture were symbols only! To my surprise the Head of the home openly disagreed with me and made it plain they were far more than symbols. What was just as surprising was the fact not one person present supported me or even refuted the counter claim made by our Host.
"Wow", I thought! ... "were all our past bible believing Church fathers martyred in vain? Had we forgotten the great price paid during the Inquisition?":
Inquisitor: "Is this piece of bread the body of our Lord and Saviour?"
Believer on trial: "No it is just a symbol, that's all!"
Inquisitor: "To the flames with this Heretic!!"
Read on please ...
A wee bit of history:
Did you know there is something remarkably different about the Believers when they rubbed shoulders in the book of Acts compared to what is referred today as fellowship. It was a spontaneous, not compulsive, informal getting-it-together in peoples homes. Even breaking bread together was an ordinary thing, a meal, not an involuntary ritual as it has become today.
In fact, there are only three places in Acts where the breaking of bread together is recorded and they are all to do with snack times. Proof ... ? Then here it comes:
Acts 2:42- 47 ... and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.
Then there is Acts 20:7-11, a first day of one particular week. No, not a Sunday as previously taught. The Adventists have got this part right. It was a Saturday evening (after 6.00 pm), the first day of the Jewish/Biblical week just hours after the sabbath had ended, and not in accordance with the present R.C.C. calendar which was invented in the 16th century prophetically and partially fulfilling Daniel 7:25. The Believers got so caught up in what God was doing they put tea on-hold.
It wasn't till after midnight however (remember the tired young lad falling asleep at the window while Paul was delivering the word), did they finally ate. It's amazing how we have justified a ceremony we esoterically call "communion" to be strictly observed on the commencement of the Day of the Sun. Whoops! ... Sunday morning that is!
Not convinced? Well ... please read on, because there is only one last record left in Acts. Chapter 27:14- 44:
Here Paul found himself on a ship being lashed about by violent storms for a couple of weeks. He and Luke appear to be the only Believers on board as all the others come across as being superstitious, trying to appease their gods out of the anger situation by abstaining from food (I think they call it "fasting", or something!). Or perhaps they were too bloom'n worn out, or seasick, to handle anything that looked like kai.
However, Paul, in touch with his Dad, encouraged everyone on board (verse 33- 36) to cheer up and have a bite to eat, as he knew his God had everything under control. Then he gave thanks and broke the bread with his pagan heathen friends. What!!?? Must be a translation error or something?? Relax ... this was a meal out of necessity, not religious habit, with ordinary people having a chance to see God work in this whole tricky situation.
So, the Acts have it ... an informal, not surprisingly meaningful get-together, with some tucker thrown in.
Beyond the show (biz) bread:
How can folk taste something that's not tangible, or material? That's why religion is in great need, along with all its trappings and adornments; to make something, and to turn something abstract (the way they view "God") into something we can feel, taste, touch and smell. Whether it be the eucharist, music, incense burning, or the laying on off hands by the clergy (a nice "spiritual" massage); folk need something palpable. And decorative. Even crosses and doves, and silver chalices! Quite at home in evangelical circles!
Or is there another way? A better way!?
David took the show bread. No, he wasn't trying to be "spiritual". He was just plain bloom'n hungry. In other words ... desperate for some grub. And because of his plight, he wasn't worrying about any order of ceremony. Just think about it? If David had been out to impress or religiously comply, it may have cost him his life. Which was far more important than things like tradition, ritual, and piety. It was time to give the touch not/taste not syndrome the boot. If it was either the 'doctrine of food' or divine provision; and David choose the latter. He was now looking beyond the exhibit bread.
Meals and hospitality:
Let's look at this: Many folk around the Mediterranean still use a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine as a basis for their staple diet, and usually are family orientated people who enjoy entertaining their guests and making them feel at home. Here in New Zealand we have seen a few documentaries over the last few years of ex-Kiwi servicemen who have gone back to places like Greece or Italy for WW2 reunions with families they befriended during the war. I can recall scenes of breaking bread together, toasting wine, embracing each other in song, and generally making merry around the table, in remembrance, of a special time gone by.
Is the penny beginning to drop??
A meal - but more than a meal:
To the Jewish folk the Passover still has both a significance and symbolic meaning (unfortunately they can't see past the ordinance). Their very existence and survival as a people has depended upon their sharing together. A meal typifying a common bond. With a hope their Messiah will walk in on their banquet as an unannounced guest, at any given time, fuels this incentive to meet and be together.
However, two thousand years ago Jesus did arrive as Messiah into their midst, and as a lamb, unrecognized, as the fulfilment of their passover meal, before this ordinance was nailed to the cross. Here, Jesus was replacing the Old System with something far better, as He certainly was not replacing one form of Judaism with another. He was actually making a remarkable statement that could even be experienced if adhered to. He made a declaration about the bread at their passover meal being a representation of His flesh. Not literally. And the grape juice being a representative of His blood in the same way. He also said to His disciples, as often as you do this (having meals - the breaking of bread - fellowship) do this in remembrance of Me.
Sounds almost too simple eh! Like taking the Holy Bible for what it says. But never so easy. The cross was never supposed to be. That's why Jesus wanted to get through to His disciples:
"Are you able to partake and drink of what I'm about to taste?" "Are you willing to be baptized with My death?"
And when He said, do this in remembrance of Me, did He mean to duplicate a certain setting and format as a new form of ritual over and over again, each time His followers met together, until He came back? Or did He mean to know Him in our eating, working, hospitality and sharing? In real life settings? Doing all for the glory of God! Only knowing and acknowledging ... in him we live, and move, and have our being! Without me ye can do nothing!
There's nothing abstract or mystical about this. It's just a natural process of dying to self (laying your life down for the Lord and others) and living daily (acknowledging Him in all your ways) for Him. This way He gets total credit for everything, and our attitude is kept humble as we shy away from religious paraphernalia, or being a "spiritual" exhibitionist. Making us grateful He has chosen the base things.
Instituting a substitute:
However, today there is one big problem if you can be categorized a W.A.S.P. (Western/White Anglo-Saxon Protestant ) converted to a gospel which was to the Jew first ... and that is eating mashed spud is more of a staple diet now just as breaking bread together was in the days of old. When a loaf of bread was the centrality of the meal. Bread is now usually a snack or a top-up, and since the advent of the sandwich late nineteenth century, it is nowadays pre-sliced and packaged for individual consumption and is not as 'family friendly' as yesteryear.
Also, a meal in bygone days generally took a lot more preparation than today, so there would have been a lot more appreciation and less taken for granted. The main meal (supper in biblical times) was the advent of the day. Not being a couch potato in front of the electronic altar ... the TV. When guests came the mealtable was central, not the Tube. People generally stayed there for the duration of the stay. Relaxed. No urgency to gulp down the grub. No hi-tech distractions. Taking your time as their was plenty to talk about.
Grab as many bible dictionaries, commentaries, history books and encyclopaedias (as well as the word of God) you can get your hands on, put some hours in, and do some checking yourself, as the truth will still filter through. You will discover in biblical times when a guest arrived at someone's home he would be welcomed at the door by the head of the home with the greeting of a kiss. Next he would be shown in, then seated, and the servant of the home would attend to him by washing his feet (bearing in mind the footwear and dusty streets of that era) and anointing his hair and beard with oil. Then finally he would be shown to the table where he would be joined by other guests and family members. Everyone would wait for the head of the home who would come and offer thanks to God. He would then take the loaf and break it and share it out to the others gathered, symbolizing the oneness of friends and family under the Headship of God.
Now metaphorically apply the above paragraph to the spiritual and you will see Jesus is now our all in all. He is the one we kiss (Ps. 2:12). He is the door, the door keeper, the servant, the House, the Head, the one who leads, the table for gathering, the anointer, the bread, the new wine, as well as the one who points us to God. We are His guests, His friends, His family, His gathering, His household.
There's much in the New Testament about believers banquets, also known as love feasts. No doubt with plenty of bread and grape beverage, along with other goodies. And as we have lost some qualities in living (after all, we are the "instant" age) since "the good ole days" because of changes in life style and culture (with the notion of staying "religious", or "biblical") we have packaged our meetings together into our own convenient liturgies to suit our own format, our own mid to upper class materialistic culture. F' instance ...
Stand/pray ... sit/listen ... stand/sing ... sit/read ... stand/collection ... sit/"communion" ... stand/sing ... sit/item (song, dance or drama) ... stand/benediction. With 'happy clappy' times thrown in (so we can show off how free we are by breaking out off structure); etc. etc.:
" Oh, we are so diverse!! So sensitive!! So expressive!! So multicultural!! We do everything in our church!! We must look beautiful before God!!"
You see we compartmentalize parts of scripture and throw in a bit of Old Testament with the New (this way it looks "biblical"!), along with new ideas, to spice up our gatherings and call it "having church". And since we have left 'breaking bread' as a meal, yet are aware of its contents in the New Testament, we, in our human discretion, have replaced it with an invented, representation ritual, we call the "Lords supper" or "communion". This consists of a "holy hush" ceremony, by hand to hand passing of crumbs and lolly water (sometimes booze) around, under certain emotional criteria ... tears, confessions, solemn posture, predictable prayers etc. Unscriptually with our eyes closed. Confusing reverence with austerity, holiness with sanctimony, and the presence of God with emotionalism. And turning inward to passivity we turn off true fellowship one to another.
However, if we are going to be strict about ceremony here, then we need to do it properly. Like the book of Galatians f 'instance; saying if we go back under one part of the Old then we are obligated to go back under every regulation belonging to that system. As James 2:10 puts it:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Which means (if we are going to look "scriptural" and "correct") are we constrained to literally and regularly attend the feasts and observe the days. Making sure the bread is unleavened as one loaf (uncut) from the twelve! Making sure there is one cup (not heaps of minis) with the fruit of the vine, grape as its content (not black current or raspberry ... this will make it loose its valued symbolic meaning). Eat paschal lamb, bitter herbs with sauce, each dipped in the one bowl. All in the correct order of procedure.
Then there is the question of washing one anothers feet ... literally and regularly!!??
Forget it! As mentioned there is a more simple way. Let us repeat in reverse the only three witnesses (breaking of bread) recorded in Acts again:
Fact 1. Paul broke bread with non-christians. I'll repeat that ... with non-christians!!
Fact 2. Sunday's breakfast was Saturday's supper postponed because of Paul's extra long message.
Fact 3. And breaking bread was eating meat with gladness of heart (not glumness of art).
With no mention whatsoever of the Communion Service in the book of the Acts of the apostles and churches.
"What about water baptism (immersion)?" some would say. "Is this not a similar New Testament ordinance?"
The practice of believers baptism in water is repeatedly mentioned in the book of Acts. End of story!
There is a passion in believers, and genuine may I say, to get back to the true "roots"/"culture" of the New Testament Church. Quite frankly this is impossible (and a so-called loop-hole for many movements to exploit with their own monopolized version) as we live in a totally different era, with a different culture along with modern technology. We must remember the early Church did not have the complete bible. Just portions or copies of the apostles letters, along with books of the Old Testament. However, what we do have today is the spiritual bare essentials: God's complete package ... the same Holy Ghost and the same inspired scriptures in a complete book, pointing us to the same historical complete work on the cross. Complete is the word! What more do we need?
Both practically and spiritually speaking, 'breaking bread' in our fellowshiping is now sharing a portion of scripture from the scriptures (the Bread of Life) with others gathered, with the purpose of building them up. Thanks to the Reformation (or me thinks the other way around) we now have a complete, full, open, public Bible. The Lord's table is where we fellowship from in spirit and in truth (remember the table of devils is metaphorical also). Communion is our deep intimacy with the Lord as we walk with Him, sharing in His suffering as well as in His resurrection life.
"But the scriptures can't be broken!" some will protest.
The true meaning is ... they can't be taken out of context; added to or subtracted from. But vital for collective individual contribution and consumption:
When you come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
All various aspects in bringing the word to each other; for edifying each other as individuals and the Body in general.
"How can you say the bread, wine and table are not literal?" some may question.
Cause in the same context the scripture says also He was the rent veil (the way to the presence of God). Jesus also said He was the vine (where the juice came from), as He was the door (where we pass through to sup). Are these literal or symbolic? The literal was the material copy under the Old Covenant as a type or copy of the spiritual in the New Testament! Who gave us the authority to compartmentalize or materialize? When the scripture say taste and see that the LORD is good, how should we respond?
He has made a promise ... if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.
posted
Tom, Thank you for your perspective on the Lord's Supper, and I must say, it's good to hear from a New Zealander! Would be great to hear from more folks in your part of the world! You've given folks who have only known "traditional communion services" some points to ponder. Trust we all will be willing to continually evaluate all of our beliefs and practices by the standard of scripture!
Do you mind if I suggest a different view on a couple of minor points! The thought that the Lord's Supper now replaces Israel's passover is a common one, but one which I have great difficulty with from a scriptural point of view. When God institutes something "forever" does He ever replace such a practice in mid stream with a new one?
The physical nation of Israel was given 3 distinguishing practices which all were to be observed forever! -Circumcision is forever. (Gen.17:7-19) Every covenant that God has made with men (there are at least 9 of them in scripture) has a physical and visible token associated with it and the token always lasts as long as the covenant it signifies. -The passover is forever. (Ex.12:14) -The 7th day sabbath is forever. (Ex.31:13,16,17) All of these have to do with physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and have nothing to do with Gentiles.
Baptism of N.T. believers, the Lord's Supper and the demonstration of Headship by what we are instructed to do with our heads and our hair are not replacements for Israel's distinctive marks, but are brand new distinctives for all New Covenant believers (both Jews and Gentiles who are made one in Christ.)
You suggest regarding "the first day of the week" that it actually began at sundown on Saturday. Are you sure that this sort of time reckoning was used in New testament times? The texts which cause me to question this are Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; and Luke 23:44. All three, referring to the crucifixion of Christ speak of there being darkness from "the sixth hour unto the ninth hour". If the days began at sundown (roughly our 6p.m.) the 6th to the 9th hour of the day would have been normal hours of darkness! (our midnight to 3 a.m.)! In Paul's two accounts of his "Damascus road experience" (Acts 22:6 and Acts 26:13) "noon" is equated with "mid-day". Thus, it seems that the day time started at sun-up (our 6 a.m.) so the 6th hour to the 9th hour would be noon to 3 p.m. If this was the case, the disciples who came together to break bread on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7) came together on Sunday, but because of Paul's long dialogue/discussion (not monologue sermon as many have supposed!) they did not actually break bread till after midnight, or early Monday morning!!!
Just wondering what you think of this perspective!
Your servant for Jesus' sake, Bruce Woodford Norwich, Ontario, Canada
Faith
posted
Bruce,
Regarding evening to evening time, why did God repeat himself six times in Gen. 1, always putting evening first when explaining the days? Gen.1:5,8,13,19,23 & 31 The Sabbath and other festivals were always observed from evening also.
Check out "The New Unger's Bible Dictionary" under "Passover" & "time,divisions".
"The New Strong's Concordance" has a chart of the 8 parts of the Jewish day listed in the "Supplements" section at the back. The day is divided into night and day, each having 4 watches. Whereas our day is from 12-12, the biblical day is from 6-6. The first hour being our 6am at dawn. Thus the crucifiction was during daylight hours & the darknes was a special event, a sign from God, just as the torn veil was.
Another fact, Jesus was taken off the cross & buried before sunset as required in Deut. 21:23.
I hope these will help you in understanding the time element in the crucifiction. I am sure you can find more background for the Jewish time in many other study helps.
posted
Faith, Thank you for your clarification. My thoughts did agree with yours in that the day (as in "daylight")of the N.T. seemed to begin at sunup.
I was seeking to respond to Tom's comments re. the sabbath/Saturday etc. "Then there is Acts 20:7-11, a first day of one particular week. No, not a Sunday as previously taught. The Adventists have got this part right. It was a Saturday evening (after 6.00 pm), the first day of the Jewish/Biblical week just hours after the sabbath had ended, and not in accordance with the present."
It seems to me that Tom is missing the point that the sabbath ended at 6p.m. and the first day of the week began at the same moment! Seventh Day Adventists do not meet Saturday evening!!! They meet Saturday morning!!!
In Acts 20:7, when the disciples came together on the first of the week, Paul preached unto them ready to depart on the morrow.
The word "morrow" is often translated "next day". Now how we understand this in this particular context, I'm not absolutely sure. If we understand that the 24 hour day (the first of the week) started at 6 p.m. and that "the morrow" was the next 12 hour period of daylight, then the evening and "the morrow" would both be part of the same 24 hour day. If this is the case Paul and the disciples came together on the first of the week (our Saturday evening) but did not actually break bread until after midnight and then Paul departed on his journey after sunrise, Sunday morning,.
But if we understand that "the morrow" or "next day" refers to the next 24 hour day, then we must conclude that the days were divided at midnight. Thus Paul and the disciples of Acts 20:7 came together in the final hours of the first day of the week (our Sunday evening), Paul dialogued/discussed with them for a long while so that they did not actually break bread until after midnight which would then be our Monday morning (the next day) and after sunrise of Monday morning Paul departed.
If I understand you correctly, Faith, I think you would take the former position. I can't say I could disagree with you. But I suppose it depends on how the word "morrow" was understood. (The next period of daylight, or the next period of 24 hours.)
Your brother in Christ, Bruce Woodford
Dean198
posted
Tom Wrote: "I felt it had to be made very clear the bread and wine in scripture were symbols only! To my surprise the Head of the home openly disagreed with me and made it plain they were far more than symbols. What was just as surprising was the fact not one person present supported me or even refuted the counter claim made by our Host.
"Wow", I thought! ... "were all our past bible believing Church fathers martyred in vain? Had we forgotten the great price paid during the Inquisition?":
Inquisitor: "Is this piece of bread the body of our Lord and Saviour?"
Believer on trial: "No it is just a symbol, that's all!"
Inquisitor: "To the flames with this Heretic!!""
Tom thanks for the thoughts. My mind is far from made up on all this, though I am going to disagree with you here Maybe I still lean more towards what is called 'The Real Presence', ie the view that the Lord is mystically or spiritually present, that we partake of him spiritually at the Lords Supper. Now this is actually the view of most Protestants, NOT consubstantiation which is only held by the Lutherans, and which is more aking to the Roman view. The view of the real presence was in fact held by virtually all of those people condemned and burnt at the stake. Your little dialogue, permit me to say it, reminds me more of a Jack Chick caroon version than something out of Foxe's Martryology.
Now I agree that communion was informal, at least compared to what we have today. But when they partook by faith they partook of the body and blood of Christ. This seems the clear teaching of Paul. 1 Corinthians 10:16 says "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" The word communion means to partake in something, to share in something. so Cummunion is a partaking of the body and blood of Christ. It continues "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." Notice that we all partake of 'that one bread' which is Christ. Now the next verse says "Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?". This is being used with an obvious allusion to both Communion and eating meats sacrificed to idols. If this were not true it is highly unlikely that the early church could ever have erred into transubstantiation.
Dean
matthewalfredsmith
posted
Paul speaks, to my reading, with solemnity—if not severity—of the Lord's supper in I Corinthians. By this, I mean the connection between the condition of a person's heart when they partook and a resultant enfeeblement.
To my understanding, Paul is specifically warning against the partaking of the Lord's supper under the throws of earthly necessity or desire, be it physical or social, because it is not everyday bread-breaking. Perhaps there should be no occasion in which a person of a carnal mind should be faced with partaking in a Lord's supper that has the appearances of a meal; it seems rather an unkind deed to be done to him.
I may even suggest that the Lord's supper only be had in an intimate setting, between persons who are by all accounts in fellowship with Christ. If one knows himself to be infiltrating/insincere, as did Judas, his resultant condition is on own head.
In saying this, I reckon I am saying that partaking is more of an intimate proclamation than a public one. One, from this vantage, may do good to reckon a difference between church and fellowship, in the former unbelievers are expected and welcome, in the latter they are unexpected and undesired. And as to company/companionship, the level of necessary discernment is even higher.
As with any covenantal memorial, no special powers are bestowed, it is not that kind of thing; it is an intimate thing. But taking that thing in an unworthy manner does indeed seem to have special consequences, which might just evince to the person suffering those consequences that the Lord takes fellowship-in-fact (the kind had among believers and their Lord under the governance of the Father of them all) with even greater seriousness when the matter is put on the table.
That particular supper had actual life and death ramifications on that day in Jerusalem, it was a matter of trust—"real guts ball," my dad might say. Those partaking, by partaking, were entrusting their physical and social lives, one to another, on the basis of what the Lord was about to suffer. One who did it unworthily/furtively posed a real earthly danger to them all, not to mention an even geater spiritual danger to himself. Such a one might potentially befoul relationships between weaker bretheren (and weak they were). A "mole," in a way. [It is quite possible, from a reading of the gospels, that Jesus did not formalize the covenant in the presence of Judas but after he departed.]
That the bread and the cup are actually symbolic (i.e., communicative, so not only my business as mere meals are) are all the more reason to seriously examine the manners of the presentment and of the partaking of the Lord's supper.
[Note that David did not see his eating of the showbread as symbolic of anything, it was food; it was not akin to the Passover or the Lord's supper, nor did he purport it as such.]
matthewalfredsmith
posted
Seeing as how I have not yet found a way to successfully register as a user, I will need to make an edit like this.
As to the possibility of whether the Lord formalized the covenant before or after Judas left, it is "before" if Luke's account is sequentially correct, i.e., correct. Only by a piecing together hunches from the other three gospels could I suggest that It was "quite possible" that it was "after". That being said, please excuse the erroneously placed hypothesis.
lindadanette
posted
Hi! I attend a Vineyard Church and we have started an ALPHA Course this year. ALPHA meets once a week for twelve weeks and it is always starts with supper. I have witnessed an amazing transformation around this practice. We bring and share food talking about anything and everything. ALPHA is believers and seekers. Our ALPHA dinner started attracting a group of pre-teens from a poor neighborhood (They say that it's the only "full" meal they have during the week.) After dinner we sing a couple of Vineyard praise and worship songs, watch a video about the Gospel and then we break into small groups and discuss the video. This community dinner is growing and bearing MUCH fruit! We are planning to use the agape feast to "anchor" our Wednesday night activities. We will offer a youth group for the pre-teens this summer and we have a contemporary worship service going on as well. I think that we would have "missed the point" had it not been for the course. Now we see that the dinner invites intimacy as we sit around the tables, and participation in learning/worship/sharing "models" the early new covenant church. By gathering together each week we go "deeper" in relationship with each other and with Christ. Jesus'desire that we love each other as He has loved us calls us to be one with the Father as He is One.
PS We serve SIMPLE meals - It's not about glorifying worldly food - it's about gathering together in joyous expectation of spiritual food! Linda
chubbena
posted
Just some thoughts after reading Lindadanette...... To love one another: It doesn't mean to love everybody in the world. It means to love fellow true Christians as the world will hate you. Only the compromised Christians will be welcomed in this world. Any Christian leaders come to mind? Contemporary worship service? I've never seen such contradicting words put together like that before. Would someone explain what this is? Eating with unbelievers? Fine but I won't call it in joyous expectation of spiritual food........
posted
The New Testament has within it's precepts only a few references to Communion also called the “Lord's Supper". These few passages, however, are of utmost significance to us because the “Lords Supper” has been given great significance. It is important therefore to properly understand the true meaning of this part of the Christian experience.
In the scriptures we find the early Christians put more meaning to, and emphasis on communion than we do today. There is evidence communion was the focal point and basis for almost every gathering of the early church not an occasional transaction. The whole gathering was built around the Lord's supper and it was observed as a "full meal".
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the next day; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell upon him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
Acts 20:7-11
The only place the term "The Lord's Supper" is actually used in the New Testament is in I Cor.11:20.
When you come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one takes first his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have you not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise you the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1 Corinthians 11:20-22
In most places when the terms "to break bread" or "the breaking of bread" are used they refer to the same thing. The expressions simply meant "the daily meal". The physical breaking of a loaf of bread was the signal the meal was to begin. No one ate until this was done. The custom is still observed in the orthodox feast of Passover today. (More about that later).
Acts 2:42 also refers to and describes another aspect of the "Lord's Supper".
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and distributed them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their food with gladness and sincerity of heart,
Acts 2:42-46
In verse 2 the word “fellowship” is derived from the greek word koinonia" and is other places translated “communion” This koinonia was undoubtedly a full meal and is how the “Lord's Supper” was observed in by the early church.
The King James Version and the later versions of the New Testament have slightly mistranslated the breaking of bread. The correct rendering of I Co. 11:24 is simply "This is my body (which is) for you." This is backed up by third and fourth century manuscripts as well as New American Standard, and other translations. King James and several other manuscripts have added the word "broken" for you. Christ’s body is not broken or divided. The gospel of St. John also insists not a bone in his body was broken
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
John 19:31-37
This was also prophesied in scripture.
And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. (Authors Note: Christ is our Passover lamb) All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exodus 12:43-48
The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it.
Numbers 9:11-12
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all. He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
Psalms 34:18-20
The Lord's supper proclaims the body of Christ, not the "broken body". The "breaking of bread" points to a joint participation or, a communion, in one loaf, not to the fragmenting of the loaf. The idea is not that one loaf is broken into many pieces, but many people, near and far, partake in one loaf. We proclaim in this way that all believers participate in the one Christ.
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1 Corinthians 10:15-17
Paul thought of Jesus as our Passover lamb. He said, "For Christ our Passover was slain" (1 Co. 5:7). In the modern day celebration of the Passover feast by the orthodox Jews. a new form of ritual has taken precedence over the Old Testament feasts. In the Old Testament, the Jews were required to use a real lamb for the Passover. Today this has changed. At the beginning, of the feast, three loaves of bread are brought to the table, one loaf upon another. A stack of three loaves of bread. Before the feast can begin, the loaf in the middle of this stack of loaves is removed and broken into two unequal parts. The larger part of the loaf is hidden from view in another part of the room. All attending the feast then eat the smaller part of the loaf. This is a signal the feast has begun.
When the Passover meal is over and the other two loaves have been consumed during this meal, the larger portion of the middle loaf, which was hidden, is then brought back to the table and broken into smaller portions. Everyone present receives a part of the loaf. It is mandatory the whole loaf be consumed and nothing be left of it.
To the modern orthodox Jew, the middle loaf represents the Passover lamb. It is interesting to me to hear this because, first of all, this ritual was not instituted until after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and secondly, because the Jews do not have any real reason to use bread as a symbol. In the Old Testament a real lamb was required for this feast.
Wine is also used during the modern feast of Passover and this also is not mentioned in the Old Testament. In effect, the Jews today participate in the communion of the Lord though they do not recognize it. This is no different than the Old Testament shadows of Christ, which the Jews could not see at that time.
It is my belief the feast of Passover is still a part of our experience. Take another look at the Jewish Passover. During the feast, the eldest son asks the head of the household, "Why do we celebrate this festival?" The answer is a detailed story of Israel's deliverance from Egypt. After hearing the story, the group joins in singing thanksgiving hymns and psalms. The greater part of the evening is spent in visiting with one another.
It was during one of these Passover feasts Jesus took bread and blessed it and gave it to His disciples, saying, "This do in remembrance of me". Later, he took the cup, filled it with wine, blessed it, and said, "Drink ye all of it. this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you, and for many for the remission of sins". He then added, "This do as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of Me".
The early church believers understood this command literally and at their assemblies and from house to house celebrated the "Lord's Supper" or "communion". They did this just as Jesus had commanded them. They recognized it as the focal point of their gathering together and not just a subplot during their times of fellowship. Even though Christ was not with them physically, this is the means He had chosen for them, and for us as well, to have fellowship with Him. Christ told us wherever two or more are gathered together in My name, and each is a possessor of the Spirit of Christ, we are able to commune with Him.. No wonder the scripture says (He. 10:25) we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I do not know how this communion is accomplished, when we become one with Him. any more than I can understand how God operated upon my heart and circumcised it, replacing a heart of stone with a heart of flesh. The mysteries of God are not revealed to us to be speculated upon, but to be believed. He said it, so in childlike faith, we must receive it.
It is interesting to note in the original formula for Passover it was adamantly instructed if a person is uncircumcised they were not to partake. (Ex. 12:48) Our circumcision today is of the heart and applies to all mankind, both male and female. This act of circumcision, at the time of water baptism, must precede any participation in the Communion with Christ and his body.
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Ro. 2:28-29
May the God of hope be with you, in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
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Hi everyone!. Some good stuff here. Can I add a thought that is a response to go back to basics to build a case.
When one is bothered to look at the basic scriptures on the meal, it is clearly a meal not a religious ritual or sacrament.
The sacrament idea is based on an incorrect understanding of scripture where Jesus is supposed to have said "do this in rembrance of me".
First point is that it only appears in one gospel Luke 22 v 19. John doesn't record the last supper at all and the other two do not include this statement.
The only reason it is in Luke is that someone added that bit later to give some authority to the sacrament that had replaced the meal.
Second, even if Jesus did say it, he did not say to keep on doing it for ever and a day. The words "do this" have two meanings in Greek. One is "do this now" and the second is "I want you to keep doing this on a regular basis". The "do this" in Luke is the first "do this now" as a once off. There is no requirement to keep doing it.
Therefore, a claim that Jesus told us to observe the sacrament which is one of the main defences for it is not sustainable. If we are going to use that claim, then we have to stop the every Sunday bit because Jesus never told us to keep doing it.
Blessings
-------------------- Definition of a preacher: someone who talks in other people's sleep
quote:Originally posted by Marksman: The only reason it is in Luke is that someone added that bit later to give some authority to the sacrament that had replaced the meal. Blessings
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Ralph Waldo Emerson showed up at his New England church years ago and preached his farewell sermon. An excerpt is just below. I'll get the whole thing up in a day or two. Emerson was some sort of unitarian and I don't subscribe to all his views on things or even the Lord's Supper, itself. I am bringing his words to the light to show that Marksman's views, if I understand them, have been held by others in the past, not of inferior learning. Which proves? Lol.
Anyway, read and be amazed at how the church has come up with so many different divisive ideas about something which should have united her.
quote:In the history of the Church no subject has been more fruitful of controversy than the Lord's Supper. There never has been any unanimity in the understanding of its nature, nor any uniformity in the mode of celebrating it. Without considering the frivolous questions which have been lately debated as to the posture in which men should partake of it; whether mixed or unmixed wine should be served; whether leavened or unleavened bread should be broken; the questions have been settled differently in every church, who should be admitted to the feast, and how often it should be prepared. In the Catholic Church, infants were at one time permitted and then forbidden to partake; and, since the ninth century, the laity receive the bread only, the cup being reserved to the priesthood. So, as to the time of the solemnity. In the fourth Lateran Council, it was decreed that any believer should communicate at least once in a year — at Easter. Afterwards it was determined that this Sacrament should be received three times in the year — at Easter, Whitsuntide, and Christmas. But more important controversies have arisen respecting its nature. The famous question of the Real Presence was the main controversy between the Church of England and the Church of Rome. The doctrine of the Consubstantiation taught by Luther was denied by Calvin. In the Church of England, Archbishops Laud and Wake maintained that the elements were an Eucharist or sacrifice of Thanksgiving to God; Cudworth and Warburton, that this was not a sacrifice, but a sacrificial feast; and Bishop Hoadley, that it was neither a sacrifice nor a feast after sacrifice, but a simple commemoration. And finally, it is now near two hundred years since the Society of Quakers denied the authority of the rite altogether, and gave good reasons for disusing it.
I allude to these facts only to show that, so far from the supper being a tradition in which men are fully agreed, there always been the widest room for difference of opinion upon this particular.
Having recently given particular attention to this subject, I was led to the conclusion that Jesus did not intend to establish an institution for perpetual observance when he ate the Passover with his disciples; and, further, to the opinion, that it is not expedient to celebrate it as we do. I shall now endeavor to state distinctly my reasons for these two opinions.
The authority of the rite. An account of the last supper of Christ with his disciples is given by the four Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
In St. Matthew's Gospel (Matt. XXVI. 26-30) are recorded the words of Jesus in giving bread and wine on that occasion to his disciples, but no expression occurs intimating that this feast was hereafter to be commemorated.
In St. Mark (Mark XIV. 23) the same words are recorded, and still with no intimation that the occasion was to be remembered.
St. Luke (Luke XXII. 15), after relating the breaking of the bread, has these words: This do in remembrance of me.
In St. John, although other occurrences of the same evening are related, this whole transaction is passed over without notice.
Now observe the facts. Two of the Evangelists, namely, Matthew and John, were of the twelve disciples, and were present on that occasion. Neither of them drops the slightest intimation of any intention on the part of Jesus to set up anything permanent. John, especially, the beloved disciple, who has recorded with minuteness the conversation and the transactions of that memorable evening, has quite omitted such a notice. Neither does it appear to have come to the knowledge of Mark who, though not an eye-witness, relates the other facts. This material fact, that the occasion was to be remembered, is found in Luke alone, who was not present. There is no reason, however, that we know, for rejecting the account of Luke. I doubt not, the expression was used by Jesus. I shall presently consider its meaning. I have only brought these accounts together, that you may judge whether it is likely that a solemn institution, to be continued to the end of time by all mankind, as they should come, nation after nation, within the influence of the Christian religion, would have been established in this slight manner — in a manner so slight, that the intention of commemorating it should not appear, from their narrative, to have caught the ear or dwelt in the mind of the only two among the twelve who wrote down what happened.
Still we must suppose that the expression, "This do in remembrance of me," had come to the ear of Luke from some disciple who was present. What did it really signify? It is a prophetic and an affectionate expression. Jesus is a Jew, sitting with his countrymen, celebrating their national feast. He thinks of his own impending death, and wishes the minds of his disciples to be prepared for it. "When hereafter," he says to them, "you shall keep the Passover, it will have an altered aspect to your eyes. It is now a historical covenant of God with the Jewish nation. Hereafter, it will remind you of a new covenant sealed with my blood. In years to come, as long as your people shall come up to Jerusalem to keep this feast, the connection which has subsisted between us will give a new meaning in your eyes to the national festival, as the anniversary of my death." I see natural feeling and beauty in the use of such language from Jesus, a friend to his friends; I can readily imagine that he was willing and desirous, when his disciples met, his memory should hallow their intercourse; but I cannot bring myself to believe that in the use of such an expression he looked beyond the living generation, beyond the abolition of the festival he was celebrating, and the scattering of the nation, and meant to impose a memorial feast upon the whole world.
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chubbena wrote posted 09-08-2004 18:13 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just some thoughts after reading Lindadanette...... To love one another: It doesn't mean to love everybody in the world. It means to love fellow true Christians as the world will hate you. Only the compromised Christians will be welcomed in this world. Any Christian leaders come to mind? Contemporary worship service? I've never seen such contradicting words put together like that before. Would someone explain what this is? Eating with unbelievers? Fine but I won't call it in joyous expectation of spiritual food....
Hello! the spiritual food is Christ!!! Didnt christ love those who hated him and pray for those how beat him! Chirst loved his enemies and told us to love our enemies (everybody)...
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It seems that when you realize that the Lord's Supper is an extension of the Passover meal, the ritual or ceremony of a formal "snack" falls short of the intention of this event. To me, this is a real meal that foreshadows the Messianic feast we will eventually share with Christ in Heaven. Jesus says to the churches in Laodicea in Revelation 3:20, "...Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." This reminds me that eating a meal, in the Jewish culture (and the Bible is a Jewish document culturally) was something very intimate and meaningful. Remember also, that Jesus ate with those that the religious establishment considered malcontents. Why? The meal is not just for those who think like we do but also for those willing to hear and experience what the meal really means. What better way to share the story of Christ than by sharing an experiential meal that represents the kind of relationship we will all share with Christ in Heaven? Do you think this may have a positive impact on those seeking and willing to listen but maybe not yet to commit? Do you think this might give the uncommited a glimpse of Heaven on earth? Do you think this meal may flesh out the story of Jesus as well as any sermon? Would you keep anyone away from one of your sermons? Would you impede someone from hearing the greatest story ever told?
I am sorry that I have not responded to your question until now. Other things have taken my time and attention and I have not been active in posting. However I will answer your question as best I can.
At university (secular) I took a unit called “Jesus in the gospels”. My lecturer and tutor was the head of the department, an Anglican Minister and a very godly man who was not into “proving anything”. He was more concerned that we should learn the basics as opposed to the translated version.
Part of the course was studying the language of the Gospels and its construction. I found this fascinating as I now teach English to high school students and do a lot of writing my self. I write a lot of letters to the media under various names. I have been told by friends that I can sign myself anyway I like but it is obvious who the author is because of the style of writing I use.
Our mentor at uni said the same thing. That each writer has a style, so it does not take much to work out if a person wrote a particular thing.
The other aspect that he taught us is that each statement in scripture has to be read in the context of the whole. An example is baptism. Three times it is recorded in Acts. First the Jews being baptised, secondly the Samaritans being baptised and third the Gentiles being baptised. In all three cases they were baptised in the name of Jesus not the trinity as Jesus is supposed to have said in Matthew 28. Please note also that everything else that the church did in Acts they did in the name of Jesus.
Therefore one must ask the question “if Jesus last words were to baptise in the name of the trinity why did the church ignore his direction as evidenced in Acts?”
The only answer that we can possibly come to is that Jesus did not say to baptise people in the trinity. It was added or changed at a later date to support Trinitarian baptism which was part of the theology of the state church under Constantine.
We also have to consider the injunction by the Sanhedrin who told the disciples not to teach or preach in the name of the trinity??? No they were told not to teach or preach in the name of Jesus of Nazareth because that was the name and person that they feared because he had blown their cover and he had come back to life after they had crucified him.
The power throughout the New Testament was in the name, Jesus, not the titles, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
On the basis of that fact to baptise some one in the trinity is to baptise them into a something that had no recognised power. Whereas to baptise in the name of Jesus was to baptise into the name that had an immense amount of power if you get my drift.
From this I am saying that the whole of scripture does not support baptism in the trinity. As I understand Matthew 28 Jesus said go into all the world making disciples of all nations, baptising them in my name. That fits in with the revelation of the whole of scripture.
Getting back to your question how do I know that this was added later? The following may help.
No other writer included those words because the general revelation of scripture does not support them.
At the Passover meal, which was a Jewish feast, or as it is often referred to the last supper, Jesus was saying you don’t need to keep looking for your messiah, he is here and it is me. The purpose of the Passover meal was to celebrate the Jews deliverance from Egypt and to prepare for the coming messiah who was going to deliver them again from the oppression of the Roman Empire.
I saw a video produced by unregenerate Jews to explain the Passover meal and the significance of each part. Part of the rituals was to provide an empty seat in case the messiah turned up and to go outside and look to see if he was coming.
If Jesus said the Messiah was here and it is me, why would he tell them to keep meeting once a year to wait for the messiah or as we have made it once a week or more. It is totally illogical and in fact says, Jesus we don’t believe what you said.
If the Jews had accepted Jesus as the messiah, they would not keep on having the Passover meal because they would not need to. Even if they met to celebrate the coming of the messiah in their terms, it would have been only once a year on the anniversary of when it happened as that is the pattern for their feasts. They certainly would not have celebrated every week or every day.
This is all apart from the fact that the meaning of “do this in remembrance of me” means now at this time, not do it on a regular basis so even though those who contend that Jesus said it cannot build a case of every week or every day and the other thing is that if you are going to do it, it was a Passover meal not a Passover snack.
Therefore Jesus would not have told them to continue something that ended with his death and resurrection because his resurrection heralded in a new covenant with his people that was expressed with an internal lordship under grace not an external one under the law. To continue a meal in the new covenant church that was an expression of the law would be illogical.
Finally those that use Corinthians to support their theory for weekly or daily communion have not read it properly. In I Cor 11 v 20 Paul says “when you come together IT IS NOT the Lord’s supper that you eat”. Why wasn’t it the Lord’s Supper? See verse 21. Because they were eating their food without waiting for anyone else. Food in the Greek means “meat”.
Therefore what is the “Lord’s Supper?” Very simple, it is coming together with other members of the body of Christ, bringing food with you, putting it on a communal table and waiting till everyone is there so that everyone, including widows, orphans, the needy and oppressed and slaves, who probably could not contribute food to the meal can equally enjoy the food provided (see v 33).