Radically Christian Cafe Post New Topic  Post A Reply

my profile | directory

log in | sign up
| search | faq | recent topics | forum index


  next oldest topic   next newest topic
R C Cafe » Lord's Supper » The Elements » wine vs unfermented Welches grape juice
 - Email this page to someone.    
Author wine vs unfermented Welches grape juice
scottrcsr
      Texas


 - posted      Profile for scottrcsr     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Does any of you know the history of when and why some denominations began using the unfermented juice and calling it the "fruit of the vine"? My deceased mother used to talk about when "the church" used wine, but could not recall when the shift was made, or why.
D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


 - posted      Profile for D Anderson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Welcome to you, friend from Texas.

The answer will likely vary from denomination to denomination. Which denomination was your mom a part of?

It does seem like a heard a story about the Welch family long ago with respect to communion beverages ...

Some, btw, would argue that unfermented wine is also fruit of the vine. I believe it is but allow others liberty in their ideas about it, in the Lord.

JeffL
      Virginia U.S.A.


 - posted      Profile for JeffL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello Scott...

Perhaps you could cast about on the internet and discover something on the subject. I am wondering whether a great many changed during the great Temperance movement and Prohibition of the 19th and early 20th centuries when the abusive effects of alcohol came to light.

Seems that a grassroots movement predominately of women advocated abstinence. In my personal opinion I can see that they would be the greatest sufferers from the consequences of drunkenness while the men (supposing them to make up the majority of drinkers) would reap any "benefits". Their families would suffer loss of wages; they might suffer at the hand of a drunken husband; and the children might suffer physical, emotional, and sexual abuse at the hand of their father or uncle. It is no different today. Why should we think it didn't happen then?

Today we have MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving). On the other side we have the disorderly, wanton male--though more and more women are drinking just like "men".

Do a little searching and see if I am correct. Perhaps the Methodist church might be a good starting point. Isn't that the church which had its genesis in the Wesleyan movement? I've already posted an enormous amount of information regarding wine on this forum so I don't want to start over. But I don't think we ever determined when Christians thought to switch back to fresh "wine" rather than fermented. It would be of interest to me to find out when fermented wine replaced the fresh "wine".

Happy hunting! ...and, welcome.

BTW, a quick search turned up this...

quote:

Wikipedia--

Welch's Grape Juice
The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869, even though pasteurizing grape juice was done in ancient times. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine.


D Anderson
      Bristol, TN USA


 - posted      Profile for D Anderson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jeff, that was the story I was thinking of concerning the Welch connection. A children's book was written about it: Dr. Welch And The Great Grape Story by Mary Lou Carney (Author), Sherry Meidell (Illustrator)

Here's a brief review found on Amazon:

quote:
For generations, youngsters have been slurping up their grape juice, savoring the flavor and admiring their purple tongues and lilac mustaches. Most of them will be unaware of the trials and tribulations that Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch faced when he decided to develop a nonalcoholic grape beverage to serve in place of communion wine. Carney's simple text and Meidell's peppy watercolors present the whole experience, from the bud of an idea in 1869 to the first successful batch, and, in an extensive author's note, to the multimillion-dollar industry that exists today. And all this is the product of a wine-hating dentist who wished to do good by creating a "Juice sweet enough for a baby to drink. Harmless to every soul on God's earth!" (including alcoholics-"people so affected by fermented drink that even one tiny sip-even communion wine-could make them crave more and more"). A story to be enjoyed while sipping cool grape juice and crunching up some PBJ crackers.

-Patricia Manning, formerly at Eastchester Public Library, NY


M.P.
      USA


 - posted      Profile for M.P.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure that Billy Graham gets the credit for the general shift away from alcohol in the pews. He had a great concern for how many families were being wrecked by alcohol (I'm thinking his rise coincided with the rise of AA), and he preached quite a bit about it.

While I don't know that he specifically advocated Welch's, I've read that his broad influence and Southern Baptist background resulted in popular Christianity being equated with anti-alcohol. I think the word "temperance", which had become a real negative association, fell by the wayside and that Graham's more softspoken yet firm message regarding a Holiness lifestyle made it more acceptable to just say no to alcohol.

I have no opinion whatsoever about this. Just telling what I remember hearing back in the days when "American Church History" was part of my portfolio.

scottrcsr
      Texas


 - posted      Profile for scottrcsr     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks to all of you who had something to pass to me. It has opened some more doors to investigate.
My mother was baptized into the Church of Christ as a 12-year old in 1914. She never developed into a "temperance" lady, but discouraged me from partaking of any and all adult beverages - an effort which, unfortunately, was not particularly successful.

E Hurst
      Oklahoma, USA


 - posted      Profile for E Hurst     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I realize this thread is long silent, but I have an opinion which may be pertinent. Prohibition in various forms has resurfaced periodically in human history, including the Rechabites in the Bible, not to mention the Nazarite vow.

The most recent American interest actually comes from the Industrial Revolution in England, before America was colonized much by Europeans. When coal was discovered in places where there were no towns, the coal companies built miserable warrens and herded their workers into them. The "company store" was born there, too, selling whatever was demanded and brought a profit. Gin was born about that time, incredibly cheap and very potent. You can guess the rest.

The religious outreach to these squalid places came from the middle class churches in established communities. Some were genuine followers of Jesus, but far too many were just prissy and pushy nanny types. Most were some of both. This gave birth to the Salvation Army type movements, and it was this element of English life which followed the colonists to America. Thus, the charter for Georgia in 1730 included a prohibition on alcohol, because the founder expected to see a lot of debtors' prison types.

It didn't turn out that way, but it shows the trend was already there. It required only the occasional crusader to make it a public movement, as others have already mentioned. Meanwhile, it became a prominent element in most denominations born in England since 1600, and consequently most of those born in the US. There are very few other national origins which include this concept.

RD Bradshaw
      Calder, Idaho


 - posted      Profile for RD Bradshaw     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi all. Yes, various Christian denominations have their own slant on this theme as noted above by D Anderson. But is that what the Word says?

To broach wine v. grape juice, one must first turn to the Passover event which is where the question arises. It has NT significance because YESHUA told His followers to observe Passover in remembrance of Him--of course, in the context of the additional points/duties He outlined (Lu 22:19).

So Christianity came along and changed it to Easter. The change is described in the Ante-Nicene fathers which tells about the Quartadecimancin controversy between the Roman Church in the West (which wanted Easter Sunday) with the Eastern Christians (called "Quartadecimancins”) who wanted to retain the Passover on Aviv 14 of the Scriptural year.

By 190 CE, Victor of Rome tried to impose Easter Sunday on the East. But they refused to change. In a letter to Victor, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, protested and noted that Polycarp (c150 CE), an alleged contemporary with the Apostle Yohanan, taught the observance of the annual Passover.

In 325 CE, the Roman emperor Constantine I summoned the Council of Nicea, where the Catholic Church Council dropped the Passover and installed Easter Sunday celebrations. The Quartadecimancins were then excommunicated and branded as heretics. From then on, it officially was Easter holidays and Communion and Mass which Protestants now call "the Lord's Supper" or memorial supper.

At the NT Passover meal, The MESSIAH introduced a ceremony of partaking of some unleavened bread and fruit of the vine, as symbols of His flesh and blood, along with a foot washing ceremony.

Most of the communion procedures followed in Christendom, particularly in the Roman Church, come from Mithraism (per “Religions of the World,” “The Two Babylons” and “The Story of Civilization”). In Mithraism, the ceremony was a common procedure observed frequently by initiates.

The early Christian defender Justin Martyr seems to have mentioned that Mithraism had a diabolical imitation of Christian communion (“Is Christianity a Fraud? Round Two,” p. 52).

Historian Will Durant in “The Rise of Civilization” (v. 3, p. 595) reports that “the Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds.”

Also, Barbara Walker reports that the sun god Mithra had a last supper with his twelve disciples--just before he died on a cross and returned to heaven. It is in memory of this meal that his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal (called mizd or missa in Latin and mass in English) of bread marked with a cross (“The Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets,” p. 662). Was this bread the start of hot cross buns?

Writing in “Mystery Babylon and the Lost Ten Tribes in the End Time” (p. 45), Darrell W. Conder quoted Justin Martyr and went on to note that the followers of the Egyptian star/sun god Osiris also had a similar meal which involved water, not wine, for its initiates.

Additionally, Alexander Hislop, in “The Two Babylons” (p 160), notes that the sun worshipping Egyptians used a thin, round cake for their sacrifice ceremony or meal (mass). This circular bread, symbolizing the sun, was eaten by the faithful.

Since the Catholic theology is that the round cake actually becomes the body of their “Jesus,” the sacrifice of the Mass involves his symbolic sacrifice on each occasion. This whole pagan exercise sounds much like the ancient sun worshippers in Yisrael who ate of the sacrifices to the dead (Ps 106:28).

In “Religions of the World” (p. 57), Gerald L. Berry writes that initiation into the Mithraic mystery involved an elaborate twelve day ceremony with the initiates being given a sacrifice (mass and/or communion) of bread and water. Berry says that the early Christian Churches also used bread and water before eventually settling in on wine. Thus, wine became the liquid of choice in the Roman Church and later some others.

In time, many of the eventual Protestant groups bolted from Rome and began using unfermented grape juice. In fact, many of the Protestants became ascetics of sorts and would not drink or use alcoholic beverages of any kind--charging sin on the part of their usage.

The Baptists and most of the Pentecostals are particularly noted for this abstinence. These Christians perhaps acquired this thinking based upon the Chrishna faith (asceticism and/or vegetarianism and the refusal to use alcoholic beverages).

In turning to the Book on the liquid issue, one finds that wine (Hebrew “yayin”) is a blessing and something good for human consumption (obviously, in moderation, because drunkenness is clearly a sin).

Some persons try to argue that yayin refers to grape juice. But this is not so--because there is another Hebrew word for freshly pressed grape juice. It is “tirosh” which is often translated as “new wine” (Prov 3:10; Isa 65:8; Hos 9:2). In the NT, the Greek oinos can refer to either wine or grape juice.

It is important to note that in the Tanakh (the OT), yayin and tirosh are used and differentiated in the same verse (Hos 4:11). Furthermore, it should be recognized that the firstfruits of the vine harvest offered at the Temple involved unfermented grape juice (tirosh) and not wine (Deut 18:3-4; II Chron 31:4-5; Neh 10:37-39; 13:5, 12).

Also, it is well to note that yayin is Scripturally used in the same text to contrast wine with a vine product called the blood of the grape (Gen 49:11; Deut 32:14; Isa 63:1-3; Rev 14:19-20). Thus, a reference to blood of the grape would not be to wine. Obviously, it would be to tirosh or grape juice. Here, blood is from the Hebrew dam or dawm.

Strong’s “Hebrew Dictionary” says that dam means “blood (as that which when shed causes death) of man or an animal; by anal. the juice of the grape; fig. (espec. in the plur.) bloodshed (i.e. drops of blood): blood (-y,--guiltiness, [thirsty], + innocent.” The Greek NT uses the Greek “haima” for blood--both of men or grapes (per Strong’s).

Priests serving YHWH in the Temple were prohibited from drinking yayin while on duty and working (Lev 10:9). In NT times, it is quite certain that YESHUA, Himself, drank fermented wine on occasion because certain Pharisees accused Him of it and He admitted it (Matt 11:18-19).

At a marriage in Cana of Galilee, YESHUA turned water into wine (not grape juice). Clearly, this was wine because the ruler of the feast acknowledged that every man serves his good wine first at a feast so that when the people had drunk it (and were beginning to be a little intoxicated), the bad wine could be then served when they would not know the difference (Jo 2:10).

It is possible that the Jews served yayin at the Passover celebrations in Second Temple days, although the Torah does not prescribe it. Notwithstanding this likelihood, the truth remains that such a practice would not dictate its use as the fruit of the vine which YESHUA outlined for His followers in their future observance of Passover and His death (Matt 26:29).

In other words, YESHUA could have properly used grape juice (tirosh or dawn) as the fruit of the vine for the additions He made to the Passover ceremony. It is useful to note that the English fruit in that text is from the Greek gennema which more correctly means “produce” (per Young’s “Analytical Concordance”). Shaul connects this produce to blood (I Cor 10:16). Yohanan says YESHUA was the vine (Jo 15:1).

Since fermented wine is a mocker (Prov 20:1) and can get people drunk if drank excessively, and since the priesthood was forbidden to use it while on duty working in the Temple (Lev 10:9), it is quite manifest that wine is not the vine produce prescribed by YESHUA to represent His shed blood.

The bottom line on this is that YESHUA prescribed the blood of the grape or grape juice and not wine for this observance.

Preservation: In an article on “Wine or Grape Juice,” published by the Assemblies of Yahweh of Bethel, PA, the point is made that in Apostolic days, grape juice could be and was preserved from the summer harvest until the next spring Passover. One preservation method involved putting the juice in an amphora and sealing the cork, sinking it in a fishpond and taking it out 30 days later.

Thereafter, the juice could be kept fresh for another year--certainly long enough for the next Passover. While the opened grape juice will ferment, so will wine ferment (until wine becomes vinegar). It is ridiculous to oppose grape juice by citing its fermentation capabilities since wine ferments as well.

Health food advocates suggest that if a person drinks grape juice only for about three days, his/her body undergoes a complete blood transfusion. Clearly, fresh grape juice is perhaps the most important product of all that resembles human blood.

Grape juice would have to be the fruit of the vine prescribed by YESHUA to represent His shed blood. Surely, sour wine (in a fermentation stage and process of becoming vinegar) would not be appropriate for His blood.

(Note: the source of the above came from v. 15, chapter 225, Ezekiel and YHWH's Judgment for the Good News People, on the net at [URL=http://www.ageend.com]).

James & Share
      Denham Springs, LA


 - posted      Profile for James & Share     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having wrestled with Mogen David and Welch on several occasions as to the scripturalness of their products, I have concluded that most of this flap borders on legalistic mambo jambo. What will the South Sea Islands Christians do if all they have is fermented coconut milk?

It is difficult to find much evidence of anyone using unfermented fruit from any vine before Mr. Welch in the 19th century. Fermentation is a natural process related to sugar and alcohol--it probably predates Noah's vineyard. Man speeds up the process. Alcohol can be made from many plants. We burn alcohol in our automobiles. Then there is AA.

In terms of symbolism: sugar seems to be a leaven; alcohol does not have leaven-like properties.

Shalom,

James

James & Share
      Denham Springs, LA


 - posted      Profile for James & Share     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having wrestled with Mogen David and Welch on several occasions as to the scripturalness of their products, I have concluded that most of this flap borders on legalistic mambo jambo. What will the South Sea Islands Christians do if all they have is fermented coconut milk?

It is difficult to find much evidence of anyone using unfermented fruit from any vine before Mr. Welch in the 19th century. Fermentation is a natural process related to sugar and alcohol--it probably predates Noah's vineyard. Man speeds up the process. Alcohol can be made from many plants. We burn alcohol in our automobiles. Then there is AA.

In terms of symbolism: sugar seems to be a leaven; alcohol does not have leaven-like properties.

Shalom,

James

JeffL
      Virginia U.S.A.


 - posted      Profile for JeffL     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello all,

I think we can agree that the Bible condemns drunkenness. The question then becomes how much can a person drink before they are condemned?

Most states in America now convicts of man of drunken driving at .08 BAC. "To reach a .08 BAC level, a 170-pound man would have to drink approximately four drinks in one hour on an empty stomach or a 137-pound woman would have to drink approximately three drinks in one hour on an empty stomach." (CDC Community Guide, 2001).

But this isn't a perfect science. These numbers are guidelines for those who must drink and drive. Each individual reacts differently under different situations so it is not a guarantee that you will pass a sobriety test even if you drink less. So as Christians we must ask ourselves, how much can we drink before God considers us impaired. If the state won't let us drive with .08 BAC then at what point does God consider us unfit for our duties?

The question we must ask ourselves is not how far we CAN push the envelop before we become drunk, but rather how far are we willing to push the envelope? Those who test the limits are treading the path of legalism more assuredly than those they accuse of it who live and teach abstinence.

--------------------
"Iniquitas mentita est sibi"

James & Share
      Denham Springs, LA


 - posted      Profile for James & Share     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some of God's guidelines:

Roman 14:23b KJV,...whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 12:1-3 KJV, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

See also: Romans 14:12-23. KJV

We all miss the mark. Jesus paid it all.

Peace.

James

   

Quick Reply
Message:

 
Formatting Code


 


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
      
Hop To:
      


contact us | housechurch.org | privacy policy

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3