Women in massive numbers look to Oprah Winfrey as a friend and a spiritual mentor. In case you're not aware, she has been taking her worldwide audience of millions through spiritualist Eckhart Tolle's book "A New Earth." Here's a taste of what they're proclaiming:
"I am a Christian who believes that there are certainly many more paths to God other than Christianity. . . . I don't believe that it's the only way, with 6 billion people here on the planet." -Oprah
"If you go deep enough in your religion, then you all get to the same place. . . . The important thing is that religion doesn't become an ideology. . . . The moment you say 'only my belief' or 'our belief' is true, and you deny other people's beliefs, then you've adopted an ideology. And then religion becomes a closed door." -Eckhart Tolle
Me again, if the lost are not really... lost, why bother? What is good news if there is no bad news?
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Oh, boy,I'm in for it now! A few months ago there was a debate between a rabbi and an ev-angelical in Christianity Today. Anybody read it? Anyway, I was struck but 2 points. First, it seemed to me the rabbi had a much better understanding of Christ. A great line was something like "if you would show us some of the love you talk about-we might take you seriously."
So how did this, I won't say all, ev-angelic justify NOT DOING IT? Again not exact quote, "Its not about the message, its about the MAN." No, all religion organizations are not equal. Some may be just plain stupid. I suggest, we do not have a leg to stand on if we do say my or our. Only when we are ready to say His belief is...will we have something special to offer the world. Sorry, bit of preaching sneaking in there.
What if we flip it, as Matthew posted. Saved from His punishment, but so far we are ALL REALLY, REALLY LOST as to finding His WAY. Rich
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One day the church may wake to this idea of holiness/righteousness. Jews see Christians as spoiled pagans. Why? because we don't believe in righteousness for it's own sake.
they think....We don't think we need to walk above the law since we have invented a God who doesn't care if we sin or not. He just loves us to pieces...much more than the Jews....and so forth.
We treat Jews and other non-believers as less than intelligent. We tend to downplay righteousness, saying that none are righteous. Yet on the other hand we are considerably less righteous in our actions than some of the ones we claim to know more than. It adds up to a bad witness. I'll stop here. Is anybody following me so far?
quote:Rich 1 said: A great line was something like "if you would show us some of the love you talk about-we might take you seriously."
AH HA!!! There it is! Love folks and then SHOW it!!! Isn't there some vague reference to some topics in Scripture about no matter what we do or know, if we don't show love [charity is love in action] ...it's all nothing! I think there is also some vague references that go something like... you will be known as Christians by your love. I could be wrong though...
As far as "The Good News" goes... (Besides no one really showing any love out there) there are many who call themselves Christians who minimize Hell... or dismiss it all together. I feel this is also a key. After all, there is only one way to prove that out. As D Anderson asked, "What is good news if there is no bad news?"
Think of it this way. What if our criminal justice system was built on the vague notion that there just might be a prison somewhere that you just might be sent to if you commit a crime!?! I just might be a bank robber!
By the way, I once had an experience that left me with the understanding that to be in the presence of The Holy God, and to be full of sin for all eternity, would be worse than spending eternity in hell. Believe it, or not.
Be blessed, Matthew
-------------------- Hope with abandon, all ye who enter here!
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Perfictly clear, followed everything except the slash. (2 OR 5 MINUTE PENALTY?) None are righteous. (for clearity- no, not even one) So far,so good. Then what is OUR (followers of the WAY)choice? We have the saint option. To become HOLY. This is the hard part for most folk: to allow His Holy Spirit to be united with our very own personal messed up human spirit. A marriage made in heaven. If you can find that in any other religion... For Jews HE provided the righteousness for SOME. (He is the God of the living) Now, He has (or hath) made us an offer too good to refuse. Don't ya think? As for needing a bad news option-I thought thats what this world was for. Rich
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okay, I might have drifted in a little off-side. I was in a hurry. I'll retake that face-off in the neutral zone. This is what people are looking for in us as Christians; they're looking for the scent of heaven in our walk. Here is an excerpt from a 2nd century letter by a man named Mathetes to Diognetus. It illustrates what I'm talking about. It is supposed to written by a non-believer.
CHAPTER V -- THE MANNERS OF THE CHRISTIANS.
For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.
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All religions do lead to the same place... and you DON'T want to go there!!!
On the other hand, there are many ways to find Jesus, but Jesus is the only way to heaven!
Jesus appears to people in dreams... draws people to himself through circumstances... shows himself through believers... displays his glory in the heavens...
Ultimately, though, each one is required to "Repent and follow".
Of course, there are always the opinions of others, so here goes another viewpoint.
The religion of the Bible centers around worship of Jesus, the Son of God, who is Creator of all things and Redeemer of all men. So in reality there is a proper and correct religion. Your statement is terribly general.
On the other hand, there are many false Christs. Many today have adopted another Jesus. Rather than being conformed to His likeness they have made their own Jesus after their own desires. This happens when we neglect to allow scripture to reveal God in truth.
Lastly, (boy, am I contentious today, huh? ) to say that each one is required to repent and follow makes it sound so mechanical. Yes, we must repent, but Scripture says it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. I know of many churches which make repentance a mechanical action rather than a heartfelt confession. It is as if they are teaching us that if we do this then God will do that. There is no true sorry for sin but merely a "save-the-bacon" type response. Remember John's words to the Pharisees? "Bring forth works meet for repentance." In other words, where is the evidence of your true sorrow for sin. No, I would have to disagree with the churches in this case. Merely confessing and repenting of sin to gain heaven does not move God's hand to forgive. So many people have never known true repentance of sin. How can I say this? Well, have they stopped?
Hopefully this will not ignite rage but simply prompt you to think outside your own box (head).
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Yes faith is better than ideology. One is three dimentional and the other, two. Communism is also an ideology, but we shouldn't be arguing or promoting Christ on this plane. It's just plane wrong!
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Right, Jeff, the "..." implied more than what I had listed, and the Word is definitely way up there. I was thinking that the Word is first for the most thorough, but it is the l east likely to be seen by the unbeliever.
I had in mind the "7 editions of the divine Law".
(This is from Wikipedea", but it's in my Thompson Chain Reference, too. 1. First Edition: Written on Nature - Psalms 19:1: "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork."
2. Second Edition: Written on Conscience - Romans 2:15: "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."
3. Third Edition: Written on Tablets of Stone - Exodus 24:12: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them."
4. Fourth Edition: Christ the Living Word - John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
5. Fifth Edition: The Entire Scriptures - Romans 15:4: "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
6. Sixth Edition: Written on the Heart - Hebrews 8:10: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people."
7. Seventh Edition: Christians as Living Epistles - 2 Corinthians 3:2-3: "Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
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I think, Jeff, that the "following Jesus" part (that is, doing what he commanded us to do) is the "proof" of repentance. He has promised us, then, that as we obey, we will know him better. I love that promise!
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JOHN, that is such a wonderful account of the period,thank you. From what I have read that is exactly what Christian meant back then. Sadly, I do not know a single person who comes anywhere close to any part of that reality. I think we have a problem here. Should we be surprised if the average person thinks it is just another fairy tale? The point I try to make with ABCORI people- the world is in crisis- and it is our fault. If not us, then who? We are the only ones who might even consider repenting our ways.
I am also told( I wasn't there) that back in the day there were NO EASY FIXES. A person was considered a CANDIDATE to BECOME a Christian for at least 1 or 2 YEARS. But once the king SAID everybody was christian, oh well.
Yes, to this day the word of God remains the most awesome offer this sorry world will ever see. You would think SOME people would give it a shot. Rich
You have contributed so many positive things here that I hate to contend with you. Please don't be upset with me but here I go again. Just to get you thinking...
Whenever I have known someone who was truly sorry for what they have done (to me or someone else) it has always involved:
1) a pleading for forgiveness, 2) a sincere desire to know they have been forgiven, 3) an attempt to make it right, 4) a promise to never do it again, 5) a conscience keen in that regard, and 6) "I'm sorry" very quickly if they ever accidentally did it again.
I realize that some habits are hard to break and it takes time to change our characters but face it, some just don't care or they would try to overcome by prayer and faith. They would lean heavily on Jesus, not trusting themselves but only in Him. True, that we must also do what he commanded us to do, but if we never truly repent than how can we be justified, reconciled, forgiven?
Just thinking of reasonable things to my mind.
BTW, I liked your '7 editions of Divine law' contribution.
I watched some of the YouTube videos of Oprah talking about her faith. While she may be spiritual she may not be Christian because she may not accept Jesus as the One way. But what makes a person Christian? The word means Christ-like.
Read the definition of an atheist at http://atheists.org and you will find that they embrace many Christian principles but reject anything supernatural, such as God. In fact, many an atheist may appear more "Christian" than many professing Christians. So in this sense an atheist could be called "Christian"--could they not?
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John, You selected the correct teaching for the situation we are considering. It must be correct for little "ol us to apply the teaching which includes "us." I admit that the context was an organizational struggle: you do not have to be part of the official, that is "our" organization, do be able to do the right thing. Yet, such a clear guide must apply as the general rule. Need I point out that many of our false church leaders like to misapply "the other one" for their own purposes.
While it is none of "our " business, we may wish to consider upon what basis He makes His judgements; if you are not for ME, you are against ME. I think the key point is that only He knows what is in OUR hearts (He must know if He lives there or not!) To tell you the truth, I don't think we know ourselves. We think we know,until each time we discover there is more to it!
May I challenge the first line? All who are "christian",yes even casual ones, are OF CHRIST, yet FEW are FILLED with,by Christ's Spirit.(in the early sense you quoted, are ANY?)Plenty of room for all to grow. Rich
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This famous quote of C.S. Lewis addresses this issue so well:
"We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christian was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a questions of words so that we can all understand what is being said. "
It has, of course, come to pass since Lewis' time that people say "Christian" meaning some upright kind of life. They can call Oprah one by altering the meaning from one who has given up his own way to follow the Jesus way, and having it instead mean a moral, virtuous person.
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How true! There is something to the moral and the virtuous. But, what about the supernatural walk in the Spirit? The exchanged life from the dead to the new and living way in Christ? I think these two ways have been confused since we see so little holiness in our time. We have downgraded the Christian walk from the holy to the virtuous, which is far more attainable without faith and then we have condemned the virtuous outside our faith as walking in sin. As in move over buddy, we own this territory now.
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Yet, there are some notable differences between the merely moral and virtuous person and a true Christian. A true Christian loves her/his enemies. This is not merely in word but in deed also. A true Christian turns the other cheek, goes the second mile, and benefits those who abuse them. They are not easily angered, do not retaliate, seek not their own, are humble, meek, and honest--even to their own loss.
My point is this. An atheist can monitor and control outward behavior--to a point! Yet, all their "goodness" will never change their heart. In the end they remain the same person--selfish and riddled with sin. When tribulation comes upon the whole earth then the true followers of Christ, the true Christians will shine forth. When the winter comes it is easy to spot the evergreen trees. So it will be in the tribulation. The pretentious leaves will fall from those who have not prepared their souls by the grace of God. Then there will be no question. The wheat and tares must be allowed to grow to maturity before the harvest.
John 2- I want to thank you for posting that 2nd century quote! We have been studying 1 Peter in our little house church and had talked about the idea of being foreigners- of "just passing through". That quote really acted to spur on discussion!
I long to be seen in the same way that this 2nd century man saw those early christians around him!
Here is another quote from a little devotional book called "the Indwelling Life of Christ" by Ian Thomas
"If your life as a christian can be explained in terms of you, what have you to offer your neighbor next door? The way he lives his life can already be explained in terms of him, and as far as he is concerned, the only difference between him and you is that you happen to be "religious" while he is not. "Christianity" may be your hobby, but not his, and there is nothing about the way you practice it which strikes him as at all remarkable. There is nothing about you which leaves him guessing, and nothing commendable of which he does not feel himself equally capable without the inconvenience of becomming a christian.
Only when your quality of life baffles your neighbors are you likely to get their attention. It must become patently obvious to them that the kind of life you are living is not only commendable, but beyond all human expanation. Your life must be the consequence only of God's capacity to reproduce himself in you, however little they may understand this. The people around you must become convinced that the Lord Jesus Christ is Himself the essential ingredient of the life you live."
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I think there is also some vague references that go something like... you will be known as Christians by your love. I could be wrong though...![[Smile]](smile.gif)
As D Anderson asked, "What is good news if there is no bad news?"
