posted
I'm listening to Brian Hogan on building the kingdom, and yesterday I wrote this quotable quote on my message board, to meditate and act on:
"How can I increase participation?"
To multiply the work we are doing, we want to look at the people we are discipling or fellowshipping with, and find some area they are gifted in, or not yet obedient in, and find ways to challenge them.
One way to do this is to look at what I'm doing, and think, Is this something someone else could be doing instead of me, or in addition to me? For example, who is the next house church leader? What is their next step toward having a church in their house?
Or my "disciple" - the person I'm trying to lead to Christ - is there something I could model and have them join me in - such as Matthew 25 ministry or talking about the Bible?
I'm thinking today that the only thing standing between me and "all nations praising Him" is the next step of obedience on my part "making disciples and teaching them to obey ALL he commands..." It is so easy to be busy doing the same thing I did yesterday, instead of moving all the chess pieces that one step forward on the board!
Blessings to you, Glory to Him! Laurie Ann Raising Tomorrow's Troublemakers... Today!
Food for thought: I think one of the most abused verses in scripture is Prov. 29:18; "Where there is no vision, the people perish:" How often have we all heard church leaders want to share their "vision" and get people on board. However, the verse doesn't stop there. Here's the rest: "but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." After digging into that verse, I walked away with this: my vision, sight, clarity, direction will come from His word. It won't come from someone who's got an idea of something to do. Vision (sight) comes from the word. So many "visions" translated: project, program, or something we should all be involved in if we're serious about our walk with God... Are we called to be visionaries? Or are we called to be holy, obedient, etc., to the word? "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path."
Is it possible that by simply doing, as you say, the same thing we did yesterday, we are really being the daily, duplicatable witness that God wants us to be (provided we are walking in the word)?
God is well able to speak to each of us. He is well able to move on someone's heart to get involved here, or take part there, or as He has spoken to me, submit to that person and do what they tell you.
If people do or don't join in on what I'm doing, great! Perhaps it's not for them. It's also not my job to find things for people to do. My job is to be the best witness, encourager, and edifier I can be. Moving others on this great spiritual journey is not our job; It's His. My job is to preach the word, and be an encourager to others on their journey. Emphasis on THEIR journey.
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I agree, Pat. What I'm thinking about is the people God HAS given us, how to be better servant-leaders among them. We are more apostolic/move-on/equipper types. So, our goal isn't to be the head of anything, or part of anything permanent but to assist those God has given us, to be a "truly indigenous, growing movement of obedient disciples." If we were to be a "house of peace" long term, I would probably think differently.
God tends to give me prophetic insight about other people's gifts. But once again, I'm at square one about how to use that in the new paradigm. I used to just call a meeting, head a committee, start a ministry, or counsel a church attender and I'd say some little thing from the Word, and lights would go on, bells would ring and angels would sing as someone said, "That's me! I want to do that!" and we would rejoice that they had found a way to serve that made sense with their talents, spiritual gifts, background and passion.
As an example, I once was asked by a Japanese young man to help him clarify his international vision. There is almost no Great Commission vision in Japanese churches, and he felt he had an apostolic calling. So I sat down with him and explained the many different ways to "go to the nations" and when I was done, I asked him what he felt he wanted to do. He was super-excited about the "tent-maker" concept, which no one had ever communicated to him. We had modeled it for him - but he hadn't realized that we were frontier missionaries _because_ my husband worked for Nippon Electric Corporation in and among an under-evangelized populace.
Does that clarify? I'm not talking about co-opting what God is doing, but cooperating with what he's doing. Blessings! LA
Did Paul instruct anyone to help people find their gift? The closest thing I can find to that is in I Cor. 14, where Paul encouraged the church to seek to excel to the edifying of the church.
He did however, persistently instruct Titus and Timothy to preach, teach and exemplify the word to other believers. LA, I don't believe this can be over emphasized: get people in the word, handling the word and sharing the word. Then watch how they hear from God about their own direction, gifting, and what's to happen next. I believe it's possible in our desire to "help people along" we can actually inhibit their growth, like trying to help a butterfly get out of it's coccoon. In doing so, we rob it of the struggle it needs to go through to build muscles to live in the world.
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The more people are in the word, and exercising their senses to discern good and evil, their faith is built. Rightly dividing the word is central to our growth and anyone elses.
May I strongly suggest two things? 1) I don't know who Brian Hogan is, but I believe you will find the answers you're looking for directly in the word and prayer. If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God... Just be open for the answers to look differently that what you expect. 2) Help others to handle the word for themselves. Teach others to teach the word, book-chapter-and verse in the right spirit.
Finally, I don't see where we are called to be servant-leaders. We are instructed to be examples. I think D Anderson put it best: Leadership Happens. You say your goal isn't to be head of anything...great. Then quit trying to be. Be an example to other believers. You teach, you preach, you show contentment, you give as unto the Lord, you show submission to your husband as unto the Lord, you walk in peace and power, etc.,
And here's a verse for that fiery soul-winner in you: "Take heed unto theyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save theyself, and them that hear thee." (I Tim.4:16)
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Just to make things clear, no I'm not a fiery soul-winner. If you are, perhaps that is why you can't understand my question.
Why are you assuming that we aren't in the Word? The Word brings knowledge... and then we apply it: THAT is "wisdom". That's why I'm here. For help in applying the revealed Word of God to blessing my unsaved neighbors. I truly look forward to "getting them into the Word"... right now the challenge is to get them into my life. I'm not playing the Christianette game, of re-shuffling believers into different groups. We have a long way to go before we can even consider "Bible Study" here. And not just us, we are regularly contacted by other believers who "get it" that starting a house church doesn't mean inviting mature Christians over to argue about Bible translations and Calvinism, but means bringing the Good News to those who don't have it yet.
But wait a minute! Where did Jesus tell us to "teach people to study the Bible"? He did, however, say to "keep my commandments" and to "make disciples" - disciples are do-ers, not study-ers.
I'm sorry you don't like my terminology. You are welcome to suggest another word for "the one other people go to when they have problems or need prayer or otherwise are seeking someone mature to walk alongside with". That's kind of a mouthful, and whatever words we use someone wants to criticize. Notice how much easier it is to tear down than build up?
Yes, Paul makes it pretty plain we are supposed to influence one another in the usage of gifts. A glance at our concordance for words like "gift" "ministry" "laying on of hands" "edify" or "quench not" reveals a great deal. Telling Timothy to "Stir up the gift that is in you" is pretty plain interference. There are many cases in scripture where someone spoke prophetically about someone else's role. My favorite might be when the servant prayed about how to find Rebekah. He's only choosing the woman who was going to be the wife of the man through whom God would save the world. "You're the one!" Wow.
quote:But wait a minute! Where did Jesus tell us to "teach people to study the Bible"? He did, however, say to "keep my commandments" and to "make disciples" - disciples are do-ers, not study-ers.
Hi LA, Hiya Pat.
Jesus had such a high regard of scripture that it is unimaginable to me that study would not have been highly desired if not highly required. How could one "live by every word" and not know every word?
quote: Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Granted the word 'study' has undergone a slight change of meaning since the King James translators employed it and granted many can study the scriptures without applying them. Granted, many mistake Bible study for spirituality and Bible study for worship. Granted, too many view study as an end rather than a means to an end - namely love. Granted, too, that there are brilliant minds who could take in everything in one reading rather than regularly studying, praying, and meditating.
Here the written law is equated to life:
quote:Deuteronomy 32:46-47: And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
Wow. For Jesus to reinforce the "jot and tittle" of the scriptures seems to me to imply that such details are highly valuable and non-disposable. Such details would suggest detailed study of some sort. And for Jesus to declare (John 10) that the "scriptures cannot be broken" again implies an integrity to the whole thing which would require precise knowledge. Granted again that it is the the Spirit which ultimately reveals truth.
From your quoting of Paul, I take it that you hold his words to be authoritative. He also commanded Timothy to study that he might handle the word of truth properly.
Granted, others here may know more about this question than I. I just don't see why studying and doing cannot be perfectly complimentary.
Above all, I do hope that I am not misrepresenting your views, today, my sister.
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"Did Paul instruct anyone to help people find their gift?" - Pat Sipp
Paul modeled this: "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery." (1 Timothy 4:14) Or, in plain English, "Don't stop using the spiritual abilities you have, which you acquired when leaders of God's people asked about you and God told them what your talents were.
And, Greetings, D
I'm certainly not saying a love for God's word is not essential. But I am concerned about the intellectualization of the Word, for example Pat seems to be saying that Study is all we should do - when the commands regarding 'study' are given to leaders, but the command to "just do it" are given to everyone. My original question was about bringing people to obedience about things such as "feeding the hungry, clothing the poor"... comforting orphans and widows.
I'm sure Pat didn't mean to waive that away, but he seems to be quibbling with my premise that it is part of our responsibility as leaders to challenge people to Do stuff. I'm super-confused.
posted
LA, I believe you're right; we don't understand each other. And in light of our other communications, perhaps it would better for all if I remained quiet. But I'll end my offerings with this attempt at clarity:
Studying leads to the knowing what to do. Consider this: Jesus is the living word. If we study, search the scriptures, take the word in like food, and share it with others, we will be changed and understand what we should do. Studying and sharing the scriptures does for the soul what excercise does for the body. A miraculous transformation takes place in the hearts and minds of people who get into the word. They become more confident in who they are in God. They become more mature, more able to handle meat instead of milk, and can hear the difference between truth and error. If you really want to challenge people to be all they can be in God, encourage them to meet with 1 or 2 people once a week for no more than an hour in simple Bible study. I gaurantee you this: ANYONE WHO WILL SHARE THE WORD WITH PEOPLE ON A REGULAR BASIS WILL BE DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THREE WEEKS! We can all find things for other people to do. Helping them to hear from God themselves is what we should be really doing. Question: How many people in your "care" are regularly sharing the word with others?
I'm not suggesting that we all just sit around and read and that's it. However, since you're looking for ways to challenge people to Do stuff, may I suggest that you study out what Paul encouraged Timothy and Titus to do. And in doing so, you will find repeated commmands to preach and teach the word. You'll also find other things like, seeing needs and meeting them, praying for the sick, giving thanks, prefering others above yourself, giving others room to be who they are in God and getting out of the way, letting others succeed and fail, forgiving, being forgiven, etc., Studying is the hearing and doeing of the word.
May I also encourage you to take things a step at a time with others. God showed me some years ago that the church is not a speed boat, able to turn on a dime, but much more like an aircraft carrier, needing time and a wide area to turn in. If you don't already, consider encouraging others as God leads you, one step at a time, a not necessarily according to your plans, your ideas and your timetable.
Finally sister, none of your references tell us to help people find their gift. And I believe you've misinterpreted I Tim. 4:14. The Bible doesn't say Paul or the presbetry told Timothy what his gift was. What Paul did say is to stir it up! I believe God will reveal his plan, purposes and gifts to his people the more his people are in the word and simply doing what they know to do today.
Remember in Acts 1, Jesus gave his disciples a simple command: Don't leave Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high. Don't even start preaching! Simply wait for the promised Holy Ghost. Simple. But later we read how Peter thought it would be a good idea to get a replacement for Judas. Not a bad idea....but is that what Jesus told them to do? No. Jesus chooses his apostles. And I belive Jesus made his choice rather clear in Acts 9 with Paul. We all may have alot of good ideas. But the bottom line is: is that what the word says to do?
In summary, the connection between the word and the multiplying of disciples is amazing: Acts 2:42, 4:4, 6:7, 17:11,
I believe that we are dealing in multiple perspectives of the very same thing. Pat, you just mentioned a fine illustration of this:
"Take heed unto theyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (I Tim.4:16)
It is God, of course, who usually does the saving but here it is actually attributed to men and that by doing rather than merely receiving.
Most alll the major teachings of the scripture, imo, present us with multiple perspectives. Take Jesus being both God and man. The Bible being God's word yet the words of men, too.
One looks at a penny and sees the head of Lincoln - another sees (and sometimes only sees) a depiction of the Lincoln Memorial. One reads "One Cent" and thinks nothing more. But for me, I see the cryptic form of a christian - "One Sent."
LA, your point about the over-intellectualization of the faith is well taken. One writer of old called the cerebralized Christianity of his day "cabbage head Christianity" - all head and no body.
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How right you may be, D. Our understanding, background and experience colors much of what we see and say.
When I consider my own personal growth (as well as in others) over the years, I've seen tremendous leaps forward in my understanding, depth, and useability when I was regularly in the word and sharing it with others in one-on-one Bible studies.
I had to chuckle when I saw the word "intellectualization" used to describe my position on this topic. Anyone who knows me would never put my name and that word in the same sentence.
We've heard the illustration: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and he'll feed himself for a lifetime." That sums up what I've tried to say here. Not to study fishing, but to fish. If I'm trying to encourage others on to good works, growth and participation, then how about starting at the core of the commands of Christ: preach the word. "John, here are some simple Bible studies you can teach. Share the word with others, and watch how God will speak to you like never before. Then you can share with us what great things God is doing in your life." Translated, "John here's a pole and some bait. There's the water. Let us know how things are going." In my experiences with "John's" I've seen shaky Christians stabilize, babes in Christ receive deep revelations, people asking me to baptize them (like the eunuch asked Philip) and direction given to wanderers. Truly amazing side-effects of simply teaching Bible studies on a regular basis. I was under the impression that LA was asking for ideas on how to get people more involved and participating. The above is my contribution.
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