To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord... To the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day... The dead in Christ shall rise...
Not long ago there was a discussion that included the question about the time between death and the resurrection. Where will we be?
At breakfast this morning, my son pointed out that God is outside of time... so our spirit, at death, will no longer be trapped in "linear time" but will likewise be where time does not exist. So we can be here... then there... through what scientists would call "a quantum leap", or what Madeleine L'Engle called a Wrinkle in time."
There need be no soul sleep nor waiting time between the death of the individual and the resurrection of the saints. We will not be trapped in mortal bodies that experience time, but in eternity where "Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world."
Isn't that a relief
It is indeed a great comfort! We are not without hope concerning those who have fallen asleep in Christ. As Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
I don't want you to be ignorant regarding those who have fallen asleep so that you sorrow as others who have no hope. We believe Jesus died and rose again so too God will bring them forth again through Jesus. Jesus promised this, that the living will not precede those sleeping in the grave, but it will happen rather than when the Lord descends from heaven the noise of his coming will awaken the dead in Christ from their tombs. Then both the living and the resurrected will ascend together into the clouds of angels to meet the Lord in the air. Then we shall never be separated from Him again. Comfort those who would mourn with these words.
Those who sleep in Christ are no longer bound by time. They are unaware of its passage. That is a relief!
It must be comforting to you that your children are thinking about spiritual matters and discussing them with you at the breakfast table. I wasn't aware people even ate breakfast anymore, much less together. I am encouraged by your witness.
Hi Laurie Ann!
Yes, I have had these same thoughts- brought on by those same passages! God and heaven are not bound by the same limitations that we live under here on earth: linear time, material mass, gravity, etc... Although it is crucial that we understand that there is a glory that awaits us who abide in Him, I think we can sometimes focus so much on trying to understand it all that we get sidetracked from what God has called us to do while we are here, on this planet of limitations. I think the same goes for end times speculation- some is good and necissary, too much can distract us from our mission.
quote:Originally posted by Laurie Ann: At breakfast this morning, my son pointed out that God is outside of time... so our spirit, at death, will no longer be trapped in "linear time" but will likewise be where time does not exist. So we can be here... then there... through what scientists would call "a quantum leap", or what Madeleine L'Engle called a Wrinkle in time."
Quite interesting Laurie Ann. I looked that up, and it would appear the this phenomenon occurs in the physical universe, a universe the The Lord created by speaking.
I once heard an Intelligent Design Theory debate where the Creationist was asked if God was material, or immaterial. His answer was the only one that fits what The Bible has claimed for thousands of years, and what science demands. "God is immaterial." (Not made of matter.)
You see, in order to have a physical universe, there has to be "something" that stands outside of the physical universe. Everything in the universe has a cause, or beginning. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed (by matter), but still has to have a "cause" (nothing cannot cause everything). Matter can loose it's ability to do work (influence other matter) but cannot be destroyed.
That being said, it is evident that the human body exist along with our spirit and soul. The Bible list them as; spirit, soul, and body. I have heard it best said that the spirit makes us God conscious, the soul makes us self conscious, and the body makes us physically conscious. There seems to be no Biblical evidence for a quantum leap (an atomic level electron change from one energy state to another), just the physical body is left behind as we "walk" into the soulish world.
This would concur with the stippulation that we move from being mostly physically and self conscious, to a state of being where we are instantly spiritually conscious. I think the intellectual "quantum leap" may be that of believing that when our body dies, our soul somehow sleeps, unaware of anything. The Bible (and Jesus Himself) is clear that there is awareness after death. Luke 16:19-31
Be blessed, Matthew
It would be difficult to interface with the outside world if we were to lose our sensory perception. Just ask Stephen Hawking or Christopher Reeve. We can then appreciate that God became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1:14) And, that Jesus was flesh and bones after his resurrection. Luke 24:39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
He has eternally identified himself with the human race. He has graven "us" upon the palms of his hands. I believe we will be able to put our fingers in the nail prints and in his wounded side just like Thomas and that these scars will be the only reminder of sin. And, that we will be able to walk and talk with Jesus. Of course, this assumes we have fingers, feet, and a mouth. I had envisioned heaven being so much more than we have here. Can't imagine being happy as a spirit. I am counting on having at least eyes and ears and a heart.
1C 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Jesus' physical body has already been resurrected from the grave Jeff L. This is an apparent anomaly. Can you think of anyone else that has been resurrected to Life, and that has been physically touched?
Be blessed, Matthew
There are many accounts in scripture where those who fell asleep were resurrected to life with physical bodies. Open another topic if you are interested.
No thanks. First, this subject is not off topic, and secondly, I made my point. If you wish to counter... well then, your practice!
Be blessed, Matthew
Jesus did have a resurected body, but it seems it was different than his first earthly body. It didn,t seem to conform to the earthly limitations that we are so used to. He simply appeared to people- even when the door was locked, and those he appeared to didn't always immediately recognize him. Again, if we try to contain God and heaven in the box of our own human understanding we will be subject to error.
God and heaven are infinately bigger and more wonderful than we can imagine! This gives me hope for the future, and the faith to endure my current limitations so that I can focus on what God has asked for me right now... to be a vessel to bring others into a reconciled relationship with Him!
I agree JeanneH! The evidence points to the fact that the statement, "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" hints (at least) that we will be nothing like what we are now. My speculation is that we will no longer be bound by time or matter, Just as Jesus wasn't once He was glorified.
The speed of light is about 670,616,629.4 miles per hour. The theory is that our glorified body will do things at the speed of thought. On average, the Earth is 93 million miles away from the Sun. The fact is, sunlight takes just over 8 minutes to reach the Earth.
Now imagine being able to think, "I want to be at the furthest object (currently recorded) from the earth." It would take you 13.3 billion years, (traveling 670,616,629.4 miles per hour, the whole time) to get there. At the speed of thought, you would already be there!
How's that for standing outside of the physical universe!?! Now that sounds like an incorruptible body to me!
Be blessed, Matthew
Wow! To not be bound by time or matter! That will be glorius! Difficult to wrap my mind around, but glorious!
Dear brethren of the House Church,
May peace and joy abound in all of our lives by the Spirit Who feeds each child of God with the groom's power of resurrection, ascention and exultation on the throne of grace, where from we now live on to become the Bride of Christ...
The idea is to bring about an extension of the House Church, to serve as a
"Grounded internet connection into the ministry of reconciliation and the Church:"
Such invitation would serve to tune our feeding into the hearing of the word that comes out of God's mouth as prescribed in Mt 4 "...man shall not live with bread alone, but from all words that proceeds from the mouth of God."
- Flowing out with the gift of eternal life to His people from the throne of grace in Christ-Jesus, reaching out to all who seek to be joined into His assembling of us all, who are journeying here and now on earth as stranger and foreigner within time and space.
- Hosting the current, ongoing internet epistle of God to the saints, through the saints, for the saints,
As I follow up our Lord's leading of these steps, I pray that the birthing desire I just wrote about gets to bring us directly into the complete awareness and contribution of our travail of labour that Paul mentions in Rm 8, 19-23...
-- For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.--
Clearing the path for the overcoming of our limitations with..
--...Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.-- Rm 8, 26-27
Yes we are limited as Paul frames in the passages above and in Col 1-3:
--If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.--
...but on the other hand, God is not limited, for nothing is impossible to God. While we are on earth, our limitations find their end, among many other passages, with the experience of Rm 8,11:
--But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.--
Our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit and Jesus made it clear that God's temple is to be a house of prayer: Mt 21, 12-13
--Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’--
Our time and space are redeemed by our divine nature, rooted in the gift of the Eternal's life, as we experience that life, that the Spirit gives to our mortal bodies... 2Pe 1, 2-4
--Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.--
Let's learn to grow in the prayer life of our Temple of God, which is our bodies, and let's keep one another from being part of what Jesus views as:
--"...but you have made it(God's Temple-our bodies) a den of thieves.’
I figured that such a contribution fits well in a thread called:
"Apostle Paul and Quantum Physics"
--Thank You Father for Your unlimited nature! Guide us into the complete maturity of our use of Your nature...in Christ-Jesus I pray...Amen to Your Yes in us all...