House Church Talk - Preterism/Fairy Tale
flash at mbz.org
Tue Feb 10 13:02:23 EST 2004
> Dear brother, it seems to me like you are saying two contradictory things
> within a few sentences! You say, "Don't believe history" and then you speak
> about the dates and details of the Roman occupation and destruction of
> Jerusalem! Where do you get your details, dates etc, if not from "secular"
> historians??? Why do you say there is no believeable record of what
> happened? What of historians of the period such as Josephus?
We must try to keep in mind that we are not fighting here on any issue. We are in a manner
experimenting, and I am enjoying the additions you are putting into this, Bruce - thank you.
My faith is not built on history:
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Therefore I say don't believe history. History on the other hand does present things some have
written. Not all of history is written, not all of history is factual, it remains history.
The Word of God on the other hand is the Word of God - we do not toy with it, we do not change
it, we come to know all of God by the Word of God. We constantly look for verification of
history and in speaking of what is written history, we continue to look for verification - not
so with the Bible. Josephus is a good historian of the period of AD70 time period. I have not
read Josephus, and there are others. Historys corroborate the history of the Bible. Historys
conflict. Actually now, think with me about Jesus appearing as we expect at AD70. That
appearing will be to take his own and others who were there - did they/will they see Jesus? or
is this appearing for the redeemed and thus something that will not be recorded in history.
Perhaps this enters into this AD70 time?
What do we call the time after Jesus' appearing - kingdom? Is there any character of this time
that speaks to kingdom?
> You wrote:"So, if we live with this hope that Jesus will come - fine, but
> realistically, we probably won't see it. So, we can live with that. Or, what
> would it be if we lived as if Jesus did come at/near AD70? What does the
> Bible expose about that type of thing? Is there mind given to live with
> today regarding that? This is not a rhetorical question for me, it is a
> question that perhaps we can seek for a modicum of an answer together? "
> Dear brother, the revelation of the Lord Jesus is the major event toward
> which all of human history has been moving! It is an event which John
> prophesied when he wrote the Revelation in A.D.94! It is an event which
> EVERY EYE shall see! (Rev.1:7) So if it had already occurred there would be
> more eye witnesses to that one event than of any other event of history!
> Such an event does not just slip by unnoticed and unrecorded by anybody!!!
> So to even hypothesize about the coming of the Lord Jesus in A.D. 70 is
> utterly unrealistic! It not only denies the facts of recorded history, but
> the facts of recorded prophecy (The Revelation)!
Did we get it wrong? Could we get it wrong? Did the leaders of Israel get Isaiah wrong?
Never say never. I hold nothing more secure than the Bible. Ideas, theology, etc are all
suspect and are held/argued and tentatively held. That is all I am doing here - I hope you
> You wrote:"3)This question about kingdom assumes only traditional
> dispensations as the influence for all thought. Think with me for the sake
> of dialog - what kind of questions would you ask about this? Does the
> kingdom come immediately after Jesus' appearance? Is there Bible reasons to
> say this is not the kingdom? Other questions?"
> Dan, many of us have rejected the dispensational scheme of things simply
> because there are no scriptural statements to provide any sort of scriptural
> fact to demonstrate (1) a 7 year tribulation, (2)a pre-tribulation rapture ,
> (3)the "imminency doctrine" of the Lord's return, (4)that the Lord will come
> in the clouds, catch believers up to meet him in the clouds and then take a
> "u-turn" and return to heaven! BUT, the rejection of "traditional
> dispensationalism" does not mean rejecting the scriptures and clearly stated
> facts and prophecies of scripture! Rather statements of the very words of
> scripture teach that the Lord comes AFTER the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31),
> that he comes at the "last trump", NOT at a trump which is followed by 7
> other trumpets! (I Cor 15:52) Scripture clearly states that our
> "redemption", the redemption (APOLUTROSIS) of our bodies (Rom.8:23) does not
> happen until after the events described in Luke 21 up to verse 27. Verse 28
> reads, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift
> up your heads; for your redemption (APOLUTROSIS) draweth nigh."
> One may reject many unscriptural "dispensational propositions" but retain
> truths of scripture which dispensational teachers have taught! i.e.
> Scripture very clearly teaches that Christ will reign for a thousand years,
> and that Satan will be bound for a thousand years. (Revelation 20)
> Scripture also teaches that after the thousand years the wicked dead will be
> raised, brought before the great white throne to be judged by Christ and
> then cast alive into the lake of Fire. (Rev.20)
> So I believe that to seriously consider the possibility that Jesus, may have
> actually returned in A.D. 70 is worse than believing the most far fetched
> fairy tale! it will also distract us from being obedient to the commands of
> our Saviour to watch, not to sleep as those who sleep in the night or are
> drunken etc! Rather, I believe we need to face the facts of scripture that
> things are going to continue to get worse and worse and that we are going to
> be called upon to go through times of horrific trouble, persecution and even
> martyrdom for the name of Christ. If we are not aware of the facts of
> scripture, if we accept the delusions of man's theories (i.e. all true
> Christians will be raptured out before the big troubles start! as in Hal
> Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" and Tim LaHaye's and Jerry Jenkins'
> "Left Behind Series") then we will be in for major disillusionment and
> despair when our presumed "pre-trib. rapture" fails to materialize before
> the Man of Sin comes on the scene and we are faced with the choice to accept
> the Mark or be denied the opportunity to buy or sell any longer!
> Scripture very clearly teaches that believers can expect no deliverance or
> rest from trouble UNTIL the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with
> his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not
> God and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ... II
> Thessalonians 1:7,8
> II Thessalonians also assures us that that day will not come except there be
> a falling away first, and that man of Sin be revealed. (This is the
> identical word for the "revelation" of Jesus Christ!) In both cases it
> means to be fully manifested for who one really is! (No more "under cover"
> operations here, as the Man of Sin will carry out throughout the great
> tribulation!) No, when he is revealed, his "cover" will be blown and he will
> be known as the liar and deceiver which he always was and will be consumed
> with the Spirit of the Lord's mouth and destroyed with the brightness of His
> coming! (II Thess.2:3-9)
> I would suggest that rather than spend our time wondering what scripture
> says to the "possibility of Christ's return in the first century" that we
> invest our time more profitably in searching the scriptures more carefully
> relative to prophecies yet unfulfilled so that we might be prepared for the
> portions of history (HIS STORY) which have yet to be unfolded!
> Your brother in Christ,
Bruce, my mind gets made up from time to time as it appears yours has been made up on this
issue. On this issue, my mind is not made up, therefore I entertain the realities of scripture
regarding the things others present. I am on the outside of these "partial preterist"
presentations willing to learn. I don't think I will be able to make up my mind, but I do want
to be open to the work of God in these matters in my life - I do not want to make up my mind.
Jesus appears? - I am waiting and live accorging to the Bible. Jesus has appeared? - I live
according to the Bible. No difference in how we live, really.
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