House Church Talk - Re: cessation of spiritual gifts

[Ross J Purdy]

Hi Bruce, Cliff and all.



And this will answer an old post of Tom's on my understanding of Eph 4.

> (Ross) wrote:

>>" as Paul says, they (spiritual gifts) would and did pass away
>> whereas Love, Hope, and Faith remain. Love forever, but Hope and Faith
until
>>the coming of the Lord where they shall be realized."

Bruce writes:
> Dear brother in what passages of scripture did Paul say:
> -that ALL the spiritual gifts of Rom.12, I Cor 12 and Eph.4 WOULD PASS
AWAY?
> -that any of them DID pass away?
>
> In I Cor.13:8-10 he wrote the following facts:
> -prophecies shall fail,
> -tongues shall cease,
> -knowledge shall vanish away. (this is only 3 out of a total of 19
> different gifts listed in the 3 chapters noted above!)


Ross responds:

The three represent all. Here it is stated that they will pass away so we
can take that to the bank. The question is when can we make a withdrawal
without penalty. I 'll get to that later. The point is that we have in no
uncertain terms a limitation put on their duration.

Then in Romans 12:

Romans 12:3-6 WEB

(3) For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man who is
among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but
to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of
faith.

(4) For even as we have many members in one body, and all the members don't
have the same function,

(5) so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members
one of another.

(6) Having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, if
prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith;



In this passage, we have these two phrases: "apportioned to each person a
measure" and "according to the proportion" which again limits these gifts.
You are dealt a measure and when you use it up, it is gone.

In Eph we have:

Ephesians 4:7-8 WEB

(7) But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of
the gift of Christ.

(8) Therefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive,
and gave gifts to men."

Ephesians 4:11 WEB

(11) He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, shepherds and teachers;



Again in 4:7, the gift is limited "according to the measure" and verse 8 and
11 both say "gave" not "gives" and so it is clear that it is a one time
limited deal!

Bruce writes:

> -we know in part,
> -we prophesy in part,
> -when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done
> away,
> -when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face (no longer
> "through a glass darkly"),
> -when that which is perfect is come, I shall know even as also I am known,
> (no longer just "in part").
> -faith, hope and charity abide now. (BTW, faith is one of the gifts listed
> in I Cor 12!)
>
> What is it in this passage that identifies, to your mind, the coming of
the
> Lord?
> What do you believe is "that which is perfect"?
> When did it/will it come?
>
> That event marks the timing of 3 things:
> (1) the doing away with that which is in part (knowledge and prophecy),
> (2) the end of our seeing through a glass darkly and the beginning of our
> seeing "face to face",
> (3) Paul's knowing as he was known.
>
> Please explain for us how and why you have concluded that all four of
these
> things have already happened and when (at what point in history) you think
> they happened.


Ross writes:

Many have interpreted the "perfect" as the return of Christ. I reject that.
The KJV english has thrown us for a loop since that word has changed its
meaning since then. "Mature" or "complete" is how it should be translated
and contrasts with the incomplete/partial gifts, as well as, the immature
childish behavior of verse 11. So it has nothing to do with the return of
Christ. Paul is talking about the Body of Christ (the new man) becoming
mature or established if you will. Thus, the "perfect" man or in today's
English, a mature man/adult. Having referenced some terms from Eph (new man,
perfect man), lets look at Eph 4. Verse 3 says we are to maintain the unity,
not attempt to create it.

Ephesians 4:13-16 WEB

(13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of
the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the
fullness of Christ;

(14) that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried
about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness,
after the wiles of error;

(15) but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who
is the head, Christ;

(16) from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that
which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each
individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in
love.

The "perfect" of 1 Cor is referring to the same thing as Eph 4:13-16. They
were looking forward to becoming corporately, a full grown man, or "perfect
man" as the KJV is wont to say again. To grow up to full stature and fully
prepared and equipped to deal with life as mature adults. As members of the
Body, they were working towards this for themselves by edifying one another.
Until such time as the Body was to become established, the temporary gifts
were necessary to edify and prepare them. When maturity was reached, they
would have superior equipment and gifts would not only be superfluous, but a
burden (as evidenced already in the Corinthian Catastrophe). Paul was
commissioned to minister to the new man and as in Col 1, was working towards
establishing it. Thus it would be the ideal environment for bringing
individual saints to maturity. Paul states later that he had finished the
race, that is that he had finished his commission. It is safe to assume that
with the completion of his apostolic ministry, the "perfect" had come and
the unity of the faith established.

The unity of the faith does not refer to doctrinal or ecumenical unity as
many seem to presume. No, Paul was referring to the unity of Jew and Gentile
into one new man/Body. That is a unity that was established by God right at
the start. Eph 2:15,16; 3:6 see also 1Cor 12:12,13; Gal 3:27, 28; Col 3:11

With respect to Cliff's post, the establishment of the Body of Christ
indwelt by the HS along with a body of holy Scriptures does provide us with
everything we need. But it does not follow that faith and hope pass away
too. Paul states otherwise. After the gifts passed, Paul says that Love,
Faith and Hope remain. Love is forever but faith and hope must remain until
they are realized at the return of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2a KJV

(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;

1 Peter 1:9 KJV

(9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJV

(19) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in
the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Titus 2:13 KJV

(13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great
God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

In Christ,

Ross Purdy