House Church Talk - Re: Passion

flash flash at
Thu Mar 4 13:34:28 EST 2004

> ???  Dan, Are you saying the rending of the veil into the Holy of Holies was
> a "bad thing"?
> Me thinks that good! Not bad!  But maybe I missed what you were really
> trying to express???
> Dan:  <<<It is embodied in My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me
> > and no film can come close to capture that horribleness.  One who was in
> the bosom of the
> > father from before creation - now forsaken of the Father - for me. >>>
> I have heard that taught, as what and why our Lord quotes David from the
> cross...  Even to the extent, that If you don't see that Father turns His
> back on Yeshua at that time, as He can't/won't look on Sin, as the Messiah
> took all sin on Himself...  So popular, that has become a doctrine (approved
> teaching), and if one doesn't quickly agree, they somehow are a heretic...
> But Dan, what if the why Yeshua quotes that, isn't that God has turned His
> back, but he is making a final appeal to those religious rulers that day,
> "Here I am, as David has foretold you long time ago...  Your Messiah!  Look!
> and don't miss - I AM it's fulfillment!
> With certainty, among those whose job it was to scrutinize, and put to
> memory the Hebrew Text,
> the quoting of Ps 22, was as a "buzz word" introduction, that succeeding
> verses might be weighed, in light of the display before their very eyes...
> I don't believe Yeshua was addressing Father, I believe He was addressing
> the witnesses to that scriptural fulfillment...  What if Yeshua's eyes were
> filled w/ love, and his heart full of forgiveness, as He could well have
> been directing those
> words to those that had just rejected Him...?
> As for God turning His back on Yeshua that day...?  The teachers don't read
> far enough...  For verse Ps 22:24
> 24 For He hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
> neither hath He hid His face from Him; but when He cried unto Him, He heard.
> KJV  <caps supplied for clarity>
> Throughout the text of Psalm 22 we see several instances of soul-searching
> anguish/humiliation, only then followed w/ triumphal confidence, and
> satisfaction...
> Once I asked, one of these that held tightly, to God turning His back upon
> Messiah...  I asked, how do you suppose or reconcile, God turns His back on
> God?  Anyone?
> While I am certain, Mel is flawed in his IC influenced account of the
> events that day...  He does not stand alone... IC-isms seem to have impacted
> not few...
> and the good thing about hc
> relationships, we are NOT bound by scripted and orchestrated, standard
> party line, politically approved  containments...  We are free to explore
> and freely share w/ brethren, other potentials in mutually edifying
> dialogue,
> that we ALL might grow in love of He that has done, and will continue to do,
> soooo much more than we could do, think or ask...
> As the water levels of love rise, may all of our boats be lifted... as we
> are found...
> Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy
> that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set
> down at the right hand of the throne of God.
> JimP - kentucky

Oh, no JimP - methinks the rending of the veil is definitely a good thing and that is where the
majority of the activity that means anything resides - not in blood shed by whips and torture
as depicted in some movie.

I don't want to be heretical, nor do I want you to be heretical ;-)  Thanks for the notes on
Ps22 - I will read and digest that chapter since that is where the doctrine I mention is based.
Very interesting thoughts, JimP - I will be studying that agian - thank you.

And, I agree with you about the staid attitude resident in most IC and perhaps a bit less so in
HC.  Why anywhere else, I would toss you out on your ear for challenging Ps22 doctrine.

Again, my thoughts about the movie are that the scenes depicted can only pale in comparison
with whatever really happened and is happening to make us saints - methinks it is not in
whippings and blood that the real agony occurred, but now that you rip Ps22 from my grasp -
where to?  Do you think the real agony was in the whipping and torture as depicted in the
movie?  Or, do you sense that it really is somewhere else?  Where does the Bible indicate
anything like this if not Ps22?
Thanks again JimP
Dan ChicagoArea

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