House Church Talk - There can not be male and female1

SameSpecies samespecies at
Sun May 2 15:49:05 EDT 2004

> Hi Mike,
> Re. your first post relative to men and women, I noticed that you based
> observations about women  serving as leaders of men on the old covenant
> example of Deborah and Miriam..  If  you do this, must you not also appeal
> to the old covenant  to defend clergy/laity distinctions, the necessity of
> consecrated buildings as worship and ministry centers and of tithes and
> offerings to support and maintain both of the above?

Hi Bruce,

No, I need not.  I don't support these thing you mentioned above as God's
true desire for Him to have His image in man, for us to express Him, to live
by His Life, the Tree of Life.  We all know from the scriptures these things
were not God's heart desire for us, but rather implemented do to our
continued degradation again after God's repeated attempts to recover His
image in man, His expression.  It is all much like the Law, which Paul tells
us was a child conductor, a guardian to preserve us, holy, from God, but not
His true desire or original desire for us.  The priesthood was established
after the people rejected God, and requested a mediator between them and God
other then God Himself as the only mediator.  Let's not get side tracked by
the things nether of us support or know is God's true will for us.  I use
the Old as well as New Testament verses to show that it is God who chooses,
His authority not that of men or woman.  He chooses the vessels, that meet
His criteria, and we should not fight against Him choosing the vessels He
will choose.  Your speaking above shows me that you also, don't hold that
things you mentioned above, were God's true desire for us, and you are right
they are not His desire for us today.  If I am mistaken and you do hold to
the clergy/laity system, maybe someone else will be kind enough to explain
why God does not desire a mediatory priesthood between God and man that
performs all the priestly duties that each member of the body should be
performing as priest, meeting God's desire that all are to be a kingdom of
priests.  But, for now I don't want to get off the subject to much.
> I noticed that you did not quote from Isaiah chapter 3 where, regarding
> Israel's rebellion against God,  the fact that "women rule over them" is
> listed as one of the curses for such rebellion!!! (3:12)

Here is the NET Bible scholars notes that clear up the misunderstanding in
this translation of Isa 3:12, I am not sure if the Hebrew fonts will
display, but you can check it out by getting a free copy of the NET Bible at

27tc The Hebrew text appears to read literally, “My people, his oppressors,
he deals severely, and women rule over them.” The correct text and precise
meaning of the verse are debated. The translation above assumes (1) an
emendation of wycgn, “his oppressors,” to <ycgn, “oppressors,” (by moving
the mem on the following form to the end of the word and dropping the vav as
virtually dittographic), (2) an emendation of llwum (a singular participle
that does not agree with the preceding plural subject) to
wllu, a third plural Poel perfect from llu, “deal severely,” (note that the
following form begins with a vav; the text may be haplographic or
misdivided) and (3) an emendation (with support from the LXX) of <yvn`,
“women,” to <yvn{, “creditors” (a participle from avn). Another option is to
emend llwum to <yllwu, “children,” and read, “My people’s oppressors are
children; women rule over them.” In this case point is the same as in v. 4;
the leadership void left by the judgment will be filled by those incompetent
to lead the community—children and women. (The text reflects the ancient
Israelite patriarchal mindset.)
> The new covenant does not only change things that apply to women, but
> God-ordained practices of men under the old covenant "upside down"! i.e.
> covenant priests had to have head coverings on while they ministered, but
> new covenant men are taught to pray and prophesy with their heads
>   Priests under the old covenant were all males of the tribe of Levi, but
> under the new covenant, all believers are priests regardless of gender.

Yes, God desires all as priests regardless of gender, I couldn't agree more.
He also desires all to be performing priestly duties, a priest is for
priestly duties.  Your not really a priest if you are not performing
priestly duties.  I will cover the misunderstood and mistranslated, verses
as stated in the first post, concerning head covering, women teaching in
authority over men, being overseers, etc., Lord willing.  It will take some
time, please wait until I get to those verses before we start covering them
in follow up postings.  If you want to get started on these verses now, I
think Scott Dowlen made an excellent post, subject "woman relieved from
active duty", it was posted yesterday.
> You are right that there are many ways in which God does not distinguish
> between men and women. However, you did not mention that scripture is also
> very clear that only men may be husbands and fathers and that only women
> be wives and mothers!  You did not mention that overseers of churches must
> be husbands of one wife, you did not mention that wives are to be
> to their own husbands, that husbands are commanded to love their wives as
> Christ loved the church. You did not mention that the head of the man is
> Christ and that the head of the woman is the man. You did not mention that
> men are instructed to pray and prophesy with uncovered heads but that
> are to pray and prophesy with covered heads. You did not mention that it
> a shame for a man to have long hair but  that, if a woman has long hair,
> is a glory to her!

Your right I didn't mention it, instead I said I would in further posts, I
would cover the misunderstood and mistranslated verses concerning head
covering, woman teaching in authority, etc., and all the other ones you
mentioned, Lord willing.  I also agree with you that only woman can be wives
and mothers, I will also add that in God's example in nature and in the
scriptures that a son or Son needs a mother.  But, these are all types,
allegory, representation, for God is not really a male or a female.  God is
God, it is how He is expressed to us and how He meets all of our needs.  It
is types to convey the spiritual meaning to us, deeper then the physical we
tend to focus on, these verses may help, in them Paul points out that these
things which did happen, and were physical were also types, typology,
representations, shadows of the thing to come, Gal 4:24, 4:25, Heb 10:1 "the
law is a shadow of to... come", Col 2:17, etc.

> So, if we are to get a balanced view of scripture must we not take note of
> differences as well as similarities of which scripture speaks?

Most certainly to include many other things like the age, the surrounding
content, the typology, who is being spoken to, what was the reason for,
etc., etc.  Also the revelation of it must be received in Spirit, and not
only with the mind.  We all know these things.
> You also devoted a large section of your post to the claim that the Holy
> Spirit is female and is our Mother!  The only scripture you cited
> 4:26) was taken totally out of context and twisted to say what it does NOT
> say!  That verse says,"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the
> mother of us all."    It does NOT say (as you claim) "Holy Spirit is our
> Mother above"!!!!

Your write it doesn't use those specific words.  To see it you must consider
the allegory Paul is making, that he states he is using, along with all the
surrounding content in Galatians.  Here is an extract from another post were
I further try to explain to a sister, that God can be a Mother to us, as
as a Father, and a Brother.  The concept of types and the verses may help
see God referred to in the feminin gender.  Not that God is female or male.

Extract 1:

Exo 28:3 "... whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom", 1 Kings 4:29
"God gave Solomon wisdom...", 1 Kings 5:12 "So the Lord gave Solomon wisdom,
as he had promised him...", Pro 7:2 "Keep my commands so that you may live,
and obey my instruction as your most prized possession. 3 Bind them on your
forearm; write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Say to wisdom, “You are
my sister,” and call understanding a close relative,...", Pro 8:1 "Does not
wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?", 1 Cor 12:8 "For
one is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom... ", James 3:17 "But
the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating,
full of mercy and good fruit... ".  Is it possible that the Spirit of Wisdom
is the same wisdom referred to in all these verses above.  The wisdom we see
coming from above.  The same wisdom we call "sister", and the same
"understanding" who raises her voice, the wisdom that is from above, that is
pure and produces good fruit, as the Holy Spirit produces good fruit, wisdom
that is "from" God and "given" by the Lord.  Could it be this "wisdom" is
from above, and not a human wisdom, that Solomon is speaking of?  Look at
Gal 3:14 and 4:21-5:5 very closely, note that the promise was the Spirit.
Note, how Paul states this is an allegory and gives the representation.
Note the over all just of what Paul is telling us, that is; we are to live
by the, and be born of the free woman, earlier Paul referred to this free
woman as Jerusalem above, our Mother which is free.  Now, don't confuse the
New Jerusalem, which also comes down out of heaven with just Jerusalem.
There is Jerusalem, and then Jerusalem as something more, something
completed, "New" Jerusalem in Revelations, the consummation of God's
economy, and there is a Jerusalem that is earthly, and a Jerusalem that
represents those in slavery of Hagar.    Now, please forgive me, I did not
mean for anyone to think I was saying God is a woman, or is male or female.
I think Claire explained it best with "God is neither male nor female, but
since he created us male and female, and we are made in his image, it would
be a logical assumption that God has traits within his character that would
be considered male and female, yet in perfection, not in the corruption that
we see today."  and I agree with Redeemed that it is a matter of speech,
Paul himself said it was an allegory, a typology, a representation.  We
should not take it literally, but look at it in the spiritual, to see the
meaning God is trying to convey to us.  It is like Jesus' statement in Matt
23:37 "...How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen
gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it! 38 Look,
your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I tell you, you will not see me
from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the
Lord!’” It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird
flutters over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when the Lord
Jesus said, I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen
gathers her brood under her wings, He indicated that He was God Himself.  He
also indicated, He (her, the hen, as in the scripture) was as a mother bird
to us.  Now the Lord is Spirit, and He is gathering us in Spirit as a mother
hen, the thing He so longed for.  God is Spirit, the Lord is Lord Spirit, or
Spirit of Jesus Christ, the one born of the free woman was one born of the
Spirit.  The free "woman" not the free "man" represented the Spirit who had
a son.  God doesn't have the hang-up about the sexes that we do.  Also,
please don't think that I was advocating that anyone take anyone else's
place or that males should become females, or are becoming. What I was
trying to point out is, that when one wants to take another's place or rule
over anyone, or lord it over them, that is not of the Spirit, it is instead
part of the curse, the response in the flesh or fallen nature, it is of the
slave woman.  When we see a woman with her "desire" to over run her husband
as a lion, or when we see a husband's "desire" to rule his wife, we see they
are drawing on the wrong life, the flesh or fallen nature.  They are again
eating of the fruit of the wrong tree.  But, in the Lord there is freedom
from the curse, from the flesh nature.  We can now partake of the fruit of
the Tree of Life, Christ is the Life, he said "I am Life", "I am the Bread
of Life", He said "you must eat my flesh".  He is now the last Adam, who
became a life giving Spirit, we must walk in this newness of Life, or I
would say the New Life.  This One is also called in the scriptures the
Spirit of Faith, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of
Grace.  This is the One Jesus was truly born of, this is the One we must be
born of, this is the One the Lord returned to being after His resurrection,
this is now Christ come in the flesh, the Spirit in us to day, to deny this
One is of the anti-Christ.  And in Rom 5:10, this is the One we are much
more saved in His life.  Now, they are all One, God is One, but from our
prospective, from our stand point of need, God is all things to us, and this
can include being a Father to us, a Mother to us, a Brother to us.  Just as
God, as God the Father is the Street of Gold in the New Jerusalem, as the
Holy Spirit is the River of Life, as the Son is the Tree of Life by the
River of Life, which flows down the Golden Street with the Tree of Life
growing along it.  God is everything to us, He is Life, He is Resurrection,
He is Truth, He is the Way, He is our Straight Path, He is the Shepard, He
is a consuming Fire, He is the Golden Foundation, He is the Corner Stone, He
is the way to enter the City the One Pearl that forms the gates, He is the
Temple, our Dwelling Place, He is the Kingdom, were He is the Kingdom is, He
said "if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has
come upon you", Matt 12:28, "the Kingdom of God is... in the Holy Spirit",
Rom 14:17, and remember the Lord's words "the kingdom of God does not come
with observation", Luk 17:20, etc.  Just as He is all these things above,
all these types of God are intended to communicate to us the spiritual
reality, and to point us to Him as the Reality.  Remember, Paul said "you
have come to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jersualem".  Lord always remind us to
live by the free woman, to see the Spirit, not to try and accomplish your
will by, or see by the slave woman.

Extract 2:

I can see you are very careful and searching the scripture to ascertain if
this is true.  I think I may understand what you are referring to concerning
Proverbs 8.  In verse 22, some translate as follows;  "The Lord created me
as the beginning of his way, before his works of old."  Translating the
Hebrew text "created" in this verse may lead us to believe wisdom was a
created thing and not part of God.  For this verse I prefer another
translation that does not use the word "created" for these reasons.  First,
here is the Translation Note for the Hebrew text that is used in the above
verse and translated "created";

38 tn There are two roots קָנָה in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the
other meaning ”to create.” The older translations did not know of the second
root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary
(e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed
another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because
otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the
beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius
liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation
“create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of
 creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to
acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.”
Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas
in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of
“create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22–31 and Its Supposed
Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504–14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be
Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133–42).  Biblical Studies Press. (2001; 2002). The
NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

Here in the above note sighting the views of the different scholars we see
that there is variants between the manuscripts and variants in the opinions
on how to translate the text.  However, we see that they all felt that
wisdom was of God and God.  Arius liked wisdom as Christ, Athanasius as the
Head of Creation, which would be another reference to Christ as the Word in
Joh 1:1-3 in which all was created.  I suppose if you want with the choice
of "created me" instead of "possessed me" you could interpret it as God
establishing wisdom as His "way" for us, which would also be a reference to
"Christ".  However, I think it is pretty easy to see that this "wisdom" is
God just by the surrounding content in the scriptures.

In verse 23, "From eternity I was appointed, from the beginning, from before
the world existed."  This sounds just like God who is the eternal One before
the world existed.  God often refers to Himself this way through out the
scriptures.  In verse 21, "that I may cause those who love me to inherit
righteousness, and fill their treasuries."  We know from many scriptures
that Christ is our "righteousness" and that only God is righteous.  We know
that not only do we receive Christ as Life, but also as our Righteousness.
Christ is our inheritance.  1 Joh 2:29 is just one of dozens of examples;
"If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who practices
righteousness has been fathered by him."  The "he" in this verse is
referring to Christ.  If we practices (I think a better translation would be
"bring forth") Christ we are fathered by Him.  This is all about Christ
having His image in us again, having His glory or expression in us, the
church.  Anyway, I'll let you do the research to connect Christ as our
inheritance and righteousness through the Spirit.  Well, please continue
examining Proverbs 8, I believe you will see many references to wisdom being
described as God, as the Spirit, as the Lord Spirit.  Verse 17, I love them
that love me and seek me, sounds like God to me.  By "Me" kings reign,
princes rule, the by "Me" sounds like God.  In verse 8, all the words of my
mouth are in righteousness nothing perverse in them.  Well, if Christ is our
righteousness then we know all of God's words from His mouth come through
Christ, and only all of God's words have nothing perverse in them. In verse
30, I was rejoicing always before Him, this shows wisdom was eternal and
"always" with God.  In this verse I prefer the NET Bible translation because
it says I, wisdom was the master craftsman, God again.  We can also see in
all these verses that "wisdom" is personified, it is a being.  Well, you
check it out for yourself again, try to see that it is all about God
describing Himself, Him as Wisdom revealed to us. Don't let one disputed
part of the text keep you from seeing all the other references to God in
Chapter 8.

I am not sure what you are trying to tell me by your reference to Mal 2:15.
If you still see that it is important maybe you could explain it another way
to me.  Here is the King James translation of Mal 2:15 and the NET Bible
translation which I think helps reveal the who's and what's, the verse is
talking about;

KJ "And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And
wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your
spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth."

NET "No one does this who has even a small portion of the Spirit in him.
What did that one of our ancient times do when seeking a child from God? Be
attentive, then, to your own spirit, for one should not be disloyal to the
wife he took in his youth."

In this verse the incident being referred to is Abraham having a child
wrongly by Hagar, instead of the child that was to come by Sara by means of
the Holy Spirit.  We know that God was seeking a child born of Him, born of
the Spirit, just as He is seeking many son's today born from above, from the
Spirit.  What Abraham did in fathering a child by Hagar was not of the
Spirit.  Sara the wife of his youth, as Paul said in Galatians, is an
allegory for the free woman, the Spirit.  Children (us) are to be born of
the free woman represented by Sara.  I am not sure why you site Mal 2:15, it
seems to support what I am trying to point us all to, that it is all about
being born by the Spirit, all about living by this Life, all about being
much more saved in this Life.  Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you.  To
take heed to our spirit is needed because God dwells in our spirit, the
human spirit received from God as the breath of life, that when it contacted
the body, the dust of the earth, formed a living soul.  We are triune also,
spirit, soul, and body.  Thessalonians. points this out when it says be
found sanctified spirit, soul, and body.  God says in the Old Testament that
the spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord.  If you want further information
on the relationship of the spirit, soul, and body go to the Bible Study
forum on the Chrivan web site, and look at BroTerry's comments under the
topic of "What is a soul?
Does the bible describe it?".  BroTerry who I don't know yet did a fantastic
and very biblical presentation on the spirit, soul, and body.  He or she is
right on in this presentation.  Thank-you Lord, we need are the brothers,
male and female.  Remember that in the New Testament Paul says a couple of
times that these past events are a typology to us today, a representation,
so we can see the spiritual reality God is trying to convey to us.  Yes,
they did happen, and were or had a physical manifestation, but we need to
the typology to get the deeper meaning from God.  Yes, no one should be
disloyal to the wife of their youth, but the message is much more deeper
too.  Here's some examples were Paul says they are types, Gal 4:24, 4:25,
Heb 10:1 "the law is a shadow of to... come", Col 2:17, etc.  Lastly,
Redeemed I would like you to consider what I am really trying to say with
all of this and discern if I am really speaking such a bad thing;  if I am
telling you that God is a Father to us, a Brother to us, a Healer to us, a
Consuming Fire to us, a Shepard to us, etc., etc., if God is all things to
us, that is all good things, is it so wrong of me to also suggest that God
could be a Mother to us also?  Don't we all need a Mother along with a
Father and many brothers and sisters?  Also, if I am suggesting the we are
all brothers, is it such a wrong thing if I am suggesting that sisters are
also brothers in the Lord?  I am not attacking the husband and wife
relationship.  I am not suggesting anyone usurp the Lord's authority
however, I will be trying to point out that we are doing that by the flesh
nature, through our misunderstanding of God's recorded words, and our
outward practices.

> Mike, regarding the Lord Jesus, you wrote:"His true Mother and our true
> Mother is the Holy Spirit. "   I would ask you, what scriptural statements
> teach what you claim here?  If such things are never stated in scripture
> they truly scriptural ideas???

You tell me, do you hold that Jesus Christ is God, and not just a god, or
one with God as in one in doing God's will as the Mormon's believe, I think?
So if Jesus or Jesus Christ is The God, and not just a God to us as I am
told they believe, which I do not, I believe Jesus Christ is God.  Well,
then please show me a verses that specifically states; Jesus Christ is The
God.  I am sure if you think about all the concepts we hold, you will find
many of them can not be seen in any one scripture, or even just a few
scriptures, just try to convincing a Mormon or a Jehovah Witness or Jewish
scholar of the truth above.  He will not see it or experience it, until the
Spirit reveals it to him, we receive revelation in Spirit.  May be the two
extracts from the other posts above will help.

> Would you care to explain how you understand such passages of scripture as
> Cor.11:1-16 and I Cor.14:34,35?

Not now, but in future posts I will try Lord willing.

> Your brother (not your sister) in the Lord,
> Bruce

Nether male or female in the Lord, just in the physical male, but Lord, let
us be rather in You, in the Spirit.


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