House Church Talk - Elders and pastors

[Glenn Frank]

Thank you Bruce.... Now I don't have to write all of that! I knew if I asked
the right questions someone would write it all up!

;-)

I agree with and like the way you described the answers to those questions!
I liked your "baker" description of what most "pastors" do these days...
Sad, but true!

The interesting thing about it all... It seems a person gifted as a 'pastor'
does not automatically mean he is an elder (or some sort of 'official'
leader). There are 'pastors' in the body of Christ all over the world who
would be considered 'laymen' by anyone with a typical view of church
structure. But they are closer to the biblical meaning of pastor than some
who wear the title.

I too think that pastors are a "gifting" and a gift to the church...
Unfortunately, most churches think they have but one 'pastor' ... And they
think of him as a baker rather than a shepherd. They ignore or tolerate the
(other) true pastoral gifts in the body and call them laymen... Or
deacons... Or elders... And the body of Christ suffers for a lock of this
wonderful gifting (not to mention other gifts that some people think are
titles/postions .. .like 'evangelist')

We have built (eve in some house churches) a structure... A 'Moses model'
that does not match up with the biblical descriptions of these wonderful
gifts that Jesus gave to the church!

Thanks for writing out all those thoughts! I want to go back over your post
and re-read and re-check it with scripture. It seems very complete!

Glenn Frank



On 9/3/04 1:35 PM, "Bruce Woodford" <bwood4d at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Glenn F,
> You wrote some excellent questions which need Biblical answers::
>> Check out "Pastor" again in the Bible...
>> 1) Where does it say it is an 'office' of the church? Is it an "office"?
>> 2) Where does it say a pastor is to be the head of a church?
> 
> Like the pamphlet I once received entitled, "All that the Bible Has To Say
> About Infant Baptism:", one could very easily and quickly write a similar
> pamphlet on "All That The Bible Has To Say About the Office and Headship of
> Pastors:"    Both would be entirely blank pages!
> 
>> 3) what does the Bible say the role and reason for a pastor is?
> 
> Tending sheep!  Pastors are shepherds.   Although the English word "pastors"
> only occurs once in the N.T., the greek word from which it is translated
> (Strongs' #4166 is fouind 17 times. Evbery other time irt is "shepherd" or
> "shepherds". Tending sheep does NOT mean feeding them in the sense of
> preparing food for them!   Bakers prepare food for people who cannot or will
> not prepare their own food. Sad to say, this is precisely what most so
> called pastors are expected to do!   They are required to be "Bible Bakers"
> rather than biblical shepherds!
> 
> Bakers serve for hire. Their success is dependent on baking what their
> clientelle wants. If their clients don't like the "goods", they find another
> baker!  Bakers must work in the heat of the bakeshop where they take orders
> from those who cannot or will not prepare their own food!  But shepherds
> work in the pasture and take directions from the owner of the sheep alone.
> 
> But shepherds do not have the ability to produce grass or milk for sheep or
> lambs! But successful shepherds are known by the eating habits of the sheep
> in their care. Mature sheep can graze in the pasture for their own
> sustenance and the ewes can nourish their young with milk.  But sheep whose
> only diet is bread, buns, cakes and cookies produced by bakers will always
> be a weak and sickly lot! All "Bible Bakers" would be immediately fired if
> their job depended on the eating habits of the sheep in their care!
> 
>> And regarding 'Elders'... Are you sure they are subordinate/helpers to the
>> pastor?
> 
> Actually, yes they are!!!  "Pastor/shepherd" (singular) always refers to
> Christ in the new covenant scriptures and elders are subordinate to Him!
> But this is never the case of elders being subordinate to  mortal men who
> are pastors (plural)!.
> 
>> 1) Check out where (and how many times) the Bible mentions elders in the
>> context of the church and what were they doing?
> 
> Acts 14:23 elders were ordained in every church and commended to the Lord on
> whom they had believed.
> 
> Acts 15:2 -16:4 elders were consulted by apostles in serious matters
> relative to the Gospel. But their decisions were made in consultation with
> the whole church.
> 
> Acts 20:28-35 elders were to take heed to themselves and to all the flock
> over which the Holy Ghost had made them overseers.
> -they were to continually guard against wolves coming into the flock, even
> from among their own number!
> -they were to labor with their own hands, like Paul did, to meet their own
> needs as well as the needs of weak one among them.  (Shepherds are never
> hired, paid or fired by sheep!)  Sheep are too dumb and are not equipped for
> such responsibilities!  Shepherds are appointed by the owner of the sheep
> (acts 20:28) and they are rewarded by the same! (I Peter 5:4)
> 
> James 5:14-elders are to be called by the sick and are to go, pray over them
> and anoint them with oil.
> 
> I Peter 5:1-4- elders are to feed (tend) the flock (i.e caring for sheep!)
> The flock is AMONG them, NOT under them, and they are among the flock, NOT
> over them!   They are to take oversight of the flock willingly and of a
> ready mind, not by constraint or for filthy lucre.  This oversight is to be
> given AS EXAMPLES, NOT AS LORDS over God's heritage!
> 
> BTW, "heritage" is the Greek word KLEROS from which we get our English word
> "clergy".  So scripturally, SHEEP are the clergy, NOT the SHEPHERDS!!!
> 
>> 2) Is "elder" an office of leadership and if so... How do you see their
>> eadership role and to whom are they responsible?
> 
> Yes, elders are to be leaders in the same sense that shepherds are leaders
> of sheep. They go before them, they set a good example, they lead them to
> good pastures, they guard against wolves and predators.  But shepherds never
> hold sheep accontable to themselves!  Rather shepherds must give account for
> the sheep to the Owner of the flock! (Hebrews 13:17)  Sheep are dumb
> animals, but they do have the sense to follow shepherds who love them and
> care for them, but strangers will they not follow.  It is never difficult to
> render obedience to those whom you know love you, and set a good example
> before you.
> 
>> 3) how many elders seem to be mentioned in most every church where elders
>> are mentioned? One? Or more than one?
> 
> When I first began studying these things out many years ago in an
> institutional mission field setting, one of my co-workers asked me
> incredulously, "How many shepherds does one flock of sheep have anyway?"
> I sort of wilted because I'd been conditioned to think of one flock and one
> shepherd!
> 
> But a few days later reading Luke 2, I got my answer from scripture!  Luke
> 2:8 speaks of shepherds/pastors (plural) keeping watch over THEIR FLOCK
> (singular)!!!
> 
> Paul, addressing the elders (plural) of the church (singular) at Ephesus to
> take heed unto the flock (singular) over which the Holy Ghost had made them
> overseers (plural).
> 
> Peter addressing the elders (plural) in his first epistle instructs them to
> feed the flock (singular) which was among them (plural).  They were to be
> examples (plural) to the flock (singular).
> 
> The only times where we see a singular shepherd and a singular flock is when
> Christ, the chief shepherd is in view!  (John 10:1-16;  Hebrews 13:20;  I
> Peter 2:25 and 5:4)
> 
>> Something else to think about... Was the church supposed to follow the
>> moses model? ... Can we really verify in the NT church that they followed
>> this advice from Moses' Father in Law? (the one head guy with a team of
>> subordinate helpers?)
> 
> We'll include such texts of scripture, whenever we find them,  in our
> pamphlet on the office and headship of pastors!
> 
> (It sure sounds like elders and  are to BE THE SHEPHERDS in God's little
> flocks!)
> 
> Your brother in Christ,
> Bruce
> 
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